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SEALgep
02-12-2004, 11:26 AM
He may get his shot earlier than expected. If not at the start of the season, maybe sometime throughout.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040211soxrowcenter,1,1858412.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

rdivaldi
02-12-2004, 11:47 AM
And if he did get that shot, I believe it would be a big mistake. I think it's tme for the Sox to stop rushing guys up from AA to the majors. I would very much prefer Honel get a full year of AA/AAA under his belt before he makes the Cell his home.

Fungo
02-12-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by rdivaldi
And if he did get that shot, I believe it would be a big mistake. I think it's tme for the Sox to stop rushing guys up from AA to the majors. I would very much prefer Honel get a full year of AA/AAA under his belt before he makes the Cell his home.

Agreed. After the mishandling of Rauch, I'm all for taking their time with pitchers. Cotts last year is another example. The Sox have been very successful at identifying pitching talent and developing it in the minors, but are lagging in helping them with taking that last step from AAA to the majors.

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by rdivaldi
And if he did get that shot, I believe it would be a big mistake. I think it's tme for the Sox to stop rushing guys up from AA to the majors. I would very much prefer Honel get a full year of AA/AAA under his belt before he makes the Cell his home. A lot of great pitchers make the jump from AA to the majors. If he isn't ready, they won't rush him, but just because he was in AA doesn't by itself mean they'd rushing by moving him up. We'll just have to see how he performs in ST.

lowesox
02-12-2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Fungo
The Sox have been very successful at identifying pitching talent and developing it in the minors, but are lagging in helping them with taking that last step from AAA to the majors.

Good point. Although, one thing to remember is that the Manager plays heavily into that as well. And there's no real way of knowing how good Manuel was with young players but if you look at the Detroit/New York Cotts/Buerle incident - my guess is, he was part of the problem.

Maybe Guillen will be better.

Foulke You
02-12-2004, 12:46 PM
Keep in mind that Buehrle went from AA to the majors and never looked back. However, I agree that Cotts and Rauch were rushed. I guess it depends on the pitcher's mentality. I have high hopes for Honel, I'd hate to see him be brought up and shelled early and lose all confidence. Let him pitch in Charlotte and we'll see how he performs there for a half season before deciding on bringing him up. Plus, if we get solid performance out of Schoeneweis/Person/Cotts, we may not need a starter called up during the season barring injuries.

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Keep in mind that Buehrle went from AA to the majors and never looked back. However, I agree that Cotts and Rauch were rushed. I guess it depends on the pitcher's mentality. I have high hopes for Honel, I'd hate to see him be brought up and shelled early and lose all confidence. Let him pitch in Charlotte and we'll see how he performs there for a half season before deciding on bringing him up. Plus, if we get solid performance out of Schoeneweis/Person/Cotts, we may not need a starter called up during the season barring injuries. That's true. I think they have every intention of not rushing him in, but if he is lights out in ST, why not give him a shot. He is an outside chance for the beginning of the season, and I believe if he does show up this year, it will be probably half way through, as you stated. It makes the most sense, but I still want him in ST, because it's good experience, and he might surprise some people. If he's lights out, we can go from there, but I'm sure he'll be spending some more time in the minors.

rdivaldi
02-12-2004, 01:00 PM
My 2 big beefs with pushing our guys from AA to the majors.

#1 is that too many hitters in AA do not have plate discipline. Granted this is supposed to be where the top prospects are, but most of them are very raw. How many guys have we brought up that have no control and are just used to AA hitters going after garbage. Cotts, Wright, and Biddle just off the top of my head. I'd like for them to get to face some veteran hitters in AAA first so they can get an idea of what the strikezone in the majors is like.

#2 Birmingham is a pitchers' ballpark. I would really like these guys to be tested in Charlotte first, which is a hitters' haven, before they get brought up. I think these guys get too comfortable in Birmingham, then get lit up for tons of home runs once they get to the Cell.

sas1974
02-12-2004, 01:03 PM
I was always of the understanding that the best arms were always in AA and that AAA is more for developing hitters, rehabbing guys and letting certain guys try to hone their skills. I think a lot of pitchers make the jump right from AA. I am not suggesting that Honel do the same, I really don't know enough about what he's done or exactly how he's coming along to make that call.

sas1974
02-12-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by rdivaldi
My 2 big beefs with pushing our guys from AA to the majors.

#1 is that too many hitters in AA do not have plate discipline. Granted this is supposed to be where the top prospects are, but most of them are very raw. How many guys have we brought up that have no control and are just used to AA hitters going after garbage. Cotts, Wright, and Biddle just off the top of my head. I'd like for them to get to face some veteran hitters in AAA first so they can get an idea of what the strikezone in the majors is like.

#2 Birmingham is a pitchers' ballpark. I would really like these guys to be tested in Charlotte first, which is a hitters' haven, before they get brought up. I think these guys get too comfortable in Birmingham, then get lit up for tons of home runs once they get to the Cell.

Very good point. I have heard similar things regarding the parks. This same logic should also be considered when predicting ML success of some of our hitters.

Randar68
02-12-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
He may get his shot earlier than expected. If not at the start of the season, maybe sometime throughout.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-040211soxrowcenter,1,1858412.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

One thing to keep in mind: Honel was only promoted to AA for his least few starts and the playoffs last year. For anyone in the organization to even suggest Honel would be in the majors this year is pretty irresponsible, IMO.

The kid still hasn't completely filled out and he needs another full year in AA/AAA at the minimum. September call-up? I would buy that. I hope they don't need him before then, because, IMO, if they do, it means Diaz, Rauch, Pacheco, and Cotts have all failed in addition to possibly others. That wouldn't say much for the prospects of this season...

steff
02-12-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Good point. Although, one thing to remember is that the Manager plays heavily into that as well. And there's no real way of knowing how good Manuel was with young players but if you look at the Detroit/New York Cotts/Buerle incident - my guess is, he was part of the problem.

Maybe Guillen will be better.


Which, IMO, is where Ozzie's complete lack of experience will come into play. This could be very, very bad... :o:

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by steff
Which, IMO, is where Ozzie's complete lack of experience will come into play. This could be very, very bad... :o: Or very, very good. Managing is a team effort, and we have guys who are experienced to help Guillen out. Besides, he knows baseball very well. He's going to be fine.

steff
02-12-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Or very, very good. Managing is a team effort, and we have guys who are experienced to help Guillen out. Besides, he knows baseball very well. He's going to be fine.


The same guys that helped out JM.. or are you referring to what Joey Cora's great managerial experience will bring to the table..?

He may very well be fine.. but MY OPINION today is that I don't think he will.

Geezus.


Ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch.....

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
One thing to keep in mind: Honel was only promoted to AA for his least few starts and the playoffs last year. For anyone in the organization to even suggest Honel would be in the majors this year is pretty irresponsible, IMO.

The kid still hasn't completely filled out and he needs another full year in AA/AAA at the minimum. September call-up? I would buy that. I hope they don't need him before then, because, IMO, if they do, it means Diaz, Rauch, Pacheco, and Cotts have all failed in addition to possibly others. That wouldn't say much for the prospects of this season... No one in the organization has suggested anything. A September call up is the most likely if he's called up at all, but to rule him out to together isn't the right way to go. People sometimes surprise you, and if he comes to ST and wows everyone, then all the better for us. It really doesn't say anything about the other minor league guys like Cotts and Diaz, because no one is doubting their skills. However, if someone came in and outperformed them, why would you hold him back. I'm not saying that will happen, but I'll let ST tell the tale.

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by steff

Geezus.


Ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch..... Did I offend you or something?

steff
02-12-2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Did I offend you or something?


Offend, no.

Almost everytime someone posts an opinion you come back with "but, but, but, but... "and 1500 ways to dispute it. Not just once... but over and over and over and over again.

Everyone has their own opinion. Most of the time nothing someone else says changes it.

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by steff
Offend, no.

Almost everytime someone posts an opinion you come back with "but, but, but, but... "and 1500 ways to dispute it. Not just once... but over and over and over and over again.

Everyone has their own opinion. Most of the time nothing someone else says changes it. That's fine, but why should that stop me from stating mine?

steff
02-12-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
That's fine, but why should that stop me from stating mine?




Again...


Ouch, ouch, ouch.... over and over and over and over and over again.


Anyone have any Tylenol..?

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by steff
Again...


Ouch, ouch, ouch.... over and over and over and over and over again.


Anyone have any Tylenol..? Your essentially doing the same thing, why are you allowed to express your opinion over and over again, and I need Tylenol because I do as well. Sounds like a double standard.

Randar68
02-12-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
No one in the organization has suggested anything. A September call up is the most likely if he's called up at all, but to rule him out to together isn't the right way to go. People sometimes surprise you, and if he comes to ST and wows everyone, then all the better for us. It really doesn't say anything about the other minor league guys like Cotts and Diaz, because no one is doubting their skills. However, if someone came in and outperformed them, why would you hold him back. I'm not saying that will happen, but I'll let ST tell the tale.

Frankly, I don't care if he pitches 27 straight no-hit innings in spring training. He's going to AA. This is absolute fool's gold. He is not ready. Do not rush him.

Rex Hudler
02-12-2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
One thing to keep in mind: Honel was only promoted to AA for his least few starts and the playoffs last year. For anyone in the organization to even suggest Honel would be in the majors this year is pretty irresponsible, IMO.

The kid still hasn't completely filled out and he needs another full year in AA/AAA at the minimum. September call-up? I would buy that. I hope they don't need him before then, because, IMO, if they do, it means Diaz, Rauch, Pacheco, and Cotts have all failed in addition to possibly others. That wouldn't say much for the prospects of this season...

I agree with that sentiment. Just for clarification though.... Honel was promoted to AA twice last year for spot starts and sent back to Winston-Salem immediately after each game. He pitched for Winston in the playoffs, not Birmingham. Doesn't change your point, just wanted to clarify.

Randar68
02-12-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I agree with that sentiment. Just for clarification though.... Honel was promoted to AA twice last year for spot starts and sent back to Winston-Salem immediately after each game. He pitched for Winston in the playoffs, not Birmingham. Doesn't change your point, just wanted to clarify.

Yeah, I realized that after I posted it and thought about it for a couple seconds, but was too lazy to fix it! LOL!

duke of dorwood
02-12-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Your essentially doing the same thing, why are you allowed to express your opinion over and over again, and I need Tylenol because I do as well. Sounds like a double standard.

:prozac

too

sas1974
02-12-2004, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Frankly, I don't care if he pitches 27 straight no-hit innings in spring training. He's going to AA. This is absolute fool's gold. He is not ready. Do not rush him.

No doubt. He's still very young. How about we try to get this right one time and give him a chance to cut his teeth in the minors instead of getting them kicked in up in the show?

hillbilly
02-12-2004, 02:36 PM
I faced him in high school and man is he something special. I agree with the majority of you guys and dont rush him up. I think his upside is way too valuable to be rushing. His curveball is just sick... and oh yea he throws 96.

jeremyb1
02-12-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Fungo
Agreed. After the mishandling of Rauch, I'm all for taking their time with pitchers. Cotts last year is another example. The Sox have been very successful at identifying pitching talent and developing it in the minors, but are lagging in helping them with taking that last step from AAA to the majors.

To clarify, Rauch was rushed because he was recovering from a serious arm injury and was not nearly 100% as he was lacking velocity and life on his pitches. The problem with calling him up was health related not development related.

Rex Hudler
02-12-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
I faced him in high school and man is he something special. I agree with the majority of you guys and dont rush him up. I think his upside is way too valuable to be rushing. His curveball is just sick... and oh yea he throws 96.

Who throws 96?? Not Honel, not now.

rdivaldi
02-12-2004, 02:49 PM
Who throws 96?? Not Honel, not now.

Kris could probably throw that hard if he wanted to gun one up there and blow out his arm. But yeah, he usually works between 89-93 according to most scouting reports.

Much better than 2 years ago when he went through the dead arm phase and could hardly hit 90.

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
I faced him in high school and man is he something special. I agree with the majority of you guys and dont rush him up. I think his upside is way too valuable to be rushing. His curveball is just sick... and oh yea he throws 96. He's been throwing 90-91, and it kind of has them concerned, because he lost velocity.

Fungo
02-12-2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
To clarify, Rauch was rushed because he was recovering from a serious arm injury and was not nearly 100% as he was lacking velocity and life on his pitches. The problem with calling him up was health related not development related.
Agreed. That coupled with the fact that Manuel sat him for the first 2 weeks of the season before getting him into a game.

Rex Hudler
02-12-2004, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
He's been throwing 90-91, and it kind of has them concerned, because he lost velocity.

I can only go on two things, both of which give me limited information. I saw one outing of his in Birmingham and he never touched 90 once. He was consistently around 86-88.

A scout I talked to during that game said he had seen him 4 times last summer and the velocity was about the same.

Does that mean he never throws 90+? no It just means that I haven't seen it and based on the scouts info, he wasn't doing it consistently. If he wins, I could care less. But less velocity lessens a pitcher's margin for error, forcing him to be near perfect. If Honel can do that great. If he regains his velocity, without losing location and movement, even better.

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I can only go on two things, both of which give me limited information. I saw one outing of his in Birmingham and he never touched 90 once. He was consistently around 86-88.

A scout I talked to during that game said he had seen him 4 times last summer and the velocity was about the same.

Does that mean he never throws 90+? no It just means that I haven't seen it and based on the scouts info, he wasn't doing it consistently. If he wins, I could care less. But less velocity lessens a pitcher's margin for error, forcing him to be near perfect. If Honel can do that great. If he regains his velocity, without losing location and movement, even betterThe Sox have a good influx of young, stud pitchers in the farm system that are waiting to produce, even if Honel doesn't. Among his competition are Jon Rauch, Felix Diaz, Arnaldo Munez, and the Sox' newest minor league sensation, 23 year old Illinois native Neal Cotts.

After a spectacular 2002 season at Mid-A Kannapolis, Honel put together an impressive season in High-A at Winston-Salem. Although it wasn't quite as stellar as his '02 campaign, he still managed to fan 122 hitters in 133 IP with the Warthogs. In two starts at AA Birmingham in July, Honel held his own going 1-0 with a 3.75 ERA in 12 IP.

The biggest concern the Sox have with the 20 year old Honel is the noticeable drop in his fastball, down 5-6 MPH from his senior year in high school when he was consistently clocked around 94-95. The longer the fastball stays consistently between 88-91 MPH on the radar gun -and the more he has to rely on breaking pitches - the least likely he is to survive the next four or five years without major arm problems.

One positive on Honel is that control doesn't seem to be a problem for him, as witnessed the last two seasons by his near 3:1 strikeout to walk ratio.

He also does quite a number on left-handed hitters, who he held to just a .190 batting average this season, and is a great team leader with overall consistency. Look for Honel to start 2004 in Birmingham..

CWSGuy406
02-12-2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
I faced him in high school and man is he something special. I agree with the majority of you guys and dont rush him up. I think his upside is way too valuable to be rushing. His curveball is just sick... and oh yea he throws 96.

What high school did you attend?

hold2dibber
02-12-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
People sometimes surprise you, and if he comes to ST and wows everyone, then all the better for us. It really doesn't say anything about the other minor league guys like Cotts and Diaz, because no one is doubting their skills. However, if someone came in and outperformed them, why would you hold him back. I'm not saying that will happen, but I'll let ST tell the tale.

I would "hold him back" because he's not ready for the majors, regardless of whether he pitches well in spring training. As a general matter, spring training success means little. From all reports, Honel isn't ready for the bigs yet. A 2 week hot streak in spring training means nothing. Making personnel decisions based on spring training performance is usually a mistake - who was that CF that JM shoved down our throats for 2 months in '01 based on a hot spring training? Julio somebody? That guy couldn't hit a lick in the minors or in the majors ever in his career, but he strings together a few good games in spring training and Manual thinks the guy is the next Mickey Mantle. Of course, he was more like the next McKay Christiansen.

I don't care how well Honel does in spring training, he should be (and will be) spending the year in Birmingham.

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I would "hold him back" because he's not ready for the majors, regardless of whether he pitches well in spring training. As a general matter, spring training success means little. From all reports, Honel isn't ready for the bigs yet. A 2 week hot streak in spring training means nothing. Making personnel decisions based on spring training performance is usually a mistake - who was that CF that JM shoved down our throats for 2 months in '01 based on a hot spring training? Julio somebody? That guy couldn't hit a lick in the minors or in the majors ever in his career, but he strings together a few good games in spring training and Manual thinks the guy is the next Mickey Mantle. Of course, he was more like the next McKay Christiansen.

I don't care how well Honel does in spring training, he should be (and will be) spending the year in Birmingham. I know I read some more about him, and he needs some more time down there. I still would like him in ST for the experience though.

steff
02-12-2004, 04:04 PM
h2d,

I agree with you. A bit more time wont hurt, and to be honest I think a ST stint would hurt his development more due to the "taste" he might see it as. Let him stay down.. grow up a bit more. Stay relaxed. No pressure.

jeremyb1
02-12-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't care how well Honel does in spring training, he should be (and will be) spending the year in Birmingham.

I'm not sure he will or needs to spend the entire season in Birmingham depending on how well he pitches. He could spend some time in Charlotte or even the majors in the second half if he's lights out.

chisoxfan79
02-12-2004, 04:35 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SEALgep
[B]No one in the organization has suggested anything. A September call up is the most likely if he's called up at all, but to rule him out to together isn't the right way to go. People sometimes surprise you, and if he comes to ST and wows everyone, then all the better for us.
I agree with you on saying not to rule him out all together because I remember a two years ago watching Dontrelle Willis pitching for the low Class A Kane County Cougars then blowing away Major League hitters the following season after six AA starts.

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by chisoxfan79
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SEALgep
[B]No one in the organization has suggested anything. A September call up is the most likely if he's called up at all, but to rule him out to together isn't the right way to go. People sometimes surprise you, and if he comes to ST and wows everyone, then all the better for us.
I agree with you on saying not to rule him out all together because I remember a two years ago watching Dontrelle Willis pitching for the low Class A Kane County Cougars then blowing away Major League hitters the following season after six AA starts. That's all I was saying. Keep an open eye on him. I'm not saying he will be as productive as Willis, but you never know. If we had solid pitching one through five, this wouldn't even be a discussion, but you have to be flexible when your team has question marks.

SoxxoS
02-12-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I can only go on two things, both of which give me limited information. I saw one outing of his in Birmingham and he never touched 90 once. He was consistently around 86-88.

A scout I talked to during that game said he had seen him 4 times last summer and the velocity was about the same.

Does that mean he never throws 90+? no It just means that I haven't seen it and based on the scouts info, he wasn't doing it consistently. If he wins, I could care less. But less velocity lessens a pitcher's margin for error, forcing him to be near perfect. If Honel can do that great. If he regains his velocity, without losing location and movement, even better.

Another Sox pitcher loses velocity. We haven't seen that before...

Billy Botch
Howry
Rauch
Baldwin
Parque
K. Wells (Then regained it mysteriously with the Pirates)
D. Wright.

This is like an ongoing thing. I would like to throw-up.

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by steff
h2d,

I agree with you. A bit more time wont hurt, and to be honest I think a ST stint would hurt his development more due to the "taste" he might see it as. Let him stay down.. grow up a bit more. Stay relaxed. No pressure. That's not a problem, but he is a possible call up later on in the year. And if he does get called up, ST may be some experience that proves valuable. If it were not a possbility of him being called up, I would agree 100%. However, I don't believe it is the Sox plans to have him in ST, but you never know.

seventytwo
02-12-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I would "hold him back" because he's not ready for the majors, regardless of whether he pitches well in spring training. As a general matter, spring training success means little. From all reports, Honel isn't ready for the bigs yet. A 2 week hot streak in spring training means nothing. Making personnel decisions based on spring training performance is usually a mistake - who was that CF that JM shoved down our throats for 2 months in '01 based on a hot spring training? Julio somebody? That guy couldn't hit a lick in the minors or in the majors ever in his career, but he strings together a few good games in spring training and Manual thinks the guy is the next Mickey Mantle. Of course, he was more like the next McKay Christiansen.

I don't care how well Honel does in spring training, he should be (and will be) spending the year in Birmingham.

How could you forget Julio Ramirez?

hold2dibber
02-12-2004, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I'm not sure he will or needs to spend the entire season in Birmingham depending on how well he pitches. He could spend some time in Charlotte or even the majors in the second half if he's lights out.

I didn't mean to suggest otherwise - I mean he should start in Birmingham with the idea that he'll spend the year there. If he excells, maybe move him up to Charlotte for some portion of the season and/or give him a Sept. call-up.

hold2dibber
02-12-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by seventytwo
How could you forget Julio Ramirez?

Several years of intense therapy.

TaylorStSox
02-12-2004, 05:25 PM
Obviously it's too early to even think about it. They're bringing him along slowly for a reason. Honel IS the future. The future isn't now.


Somebody mentioned Willis. I have $10 that says Willis is destroyed this year. He's nothing more than a future long reliever. Wait and see.

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Obviously it's too early to even think about it. They're bringing him along slowly for a reason. Honel IS the future. The future isn't now.


Somebody mentioned Willis. I have $10 that says Willis is destroyed this year. He's nothing more than a future long reliever. Wait and see. That could be, he started off great, and faded in the second. Now he is penciled in as a reliever this year. I don't want that happening to Honel.

steff
02-12-2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by seventytwo
How could you forget Julio Ramirez?



Mucho Jose Cuervo... :gulp: :D:

Daver
02-12-2004, 06:50 PM
If scouts were clocking Honel at 96 in HS they brought their own gun,because the Providence pitching coach did all the gun readings for the team and he told me Kris could get one in at 93,but he preffered him to work at 88-91.

hold2dibber
02-12-2004, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Daver
If scouts were clocking Honel at 96 in HS they brought their own gun,because the Providence pitching coach did all the gun readings for the team and he told me Kris could get one in at 93,but he preffered him to work at 88-91.

Daver, what do you make of rumors that he has lost some velocity and now pitches in the 86-88 range? Don't HS pitchers (other than those who already throw mid-90s or higher) tend to pick up a little more velocity as they grow and receive MLB-quality instruction? I agree that velocity isn't the be all and end all, but losing velocity would seem to me to be a red flag, particularly for someone so young.

Daver
02-12-2004, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Daver, what do you make of rumors that he has lost some velocity and now pitches in the 86-88 range? Don't HS pitchers (other than those who already throw mid-90s or higher) tend to pick up a little more velocity as they grow and receive MLB-quality instruction? I agree that velocity isn't the be all and end all, but losing velocity would seem to me to be a red flag, particularly for someone so young.

This is a kid two years out of HS,he still does not have an adult body,and the velocity drop everyone is so concerned with was caused more by pitching double the number of innings he has ever pitched in his life in a season, then from any real injury,he is getting back to what he threw in HS.

I still really hate the radar gun and think it should be banned from every level of baseball other than MLB,that stupid thing has wounded more pitchers than it has ever helped.


But then again,what the hell do I know? ©

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 07:59 PM
Speed can be important, but I think a pitcher like Honel can be successful by throwing high 80's fastballs. His control is good, and he has a good change, and a nasty knuckle curve. If he can throw those pitches for strikes, which he can, he should still be a pretty good MLB pitcher.

Daver
02-12-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Speed can be important, but I think a pitcher like Honel can be successful by throwing high 80's fastballs. His control is good, and he has a good change, and a nasty knuckle curve. If he can throw those pitches for strikes, which he can, he should still be a pretty good MLB pitcher.

Have you ever seen him pitch?

poorme
02-12-2004, 08:28 PM
I'm not a fan of the radar gun either, but seriously, how many great starters pitch at 86-88? He sort of reminds me of Mussina, but in his prime Mussina was 93-94.

Only time will tell...

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I'm not a fan of the radar gun either, but seriously, how many great starters pitch at 86-88? He sort of reminds me of Mussina, but in his prime Mussina was 93-94.

Only time will tell... Maddux, but Honel has the knuckle curve like Mussina. If his knucklecurve is working good, 88 will be good enough.

poorme
02-12-2004, 08:52 PM
You mean he could be the next Maddux or the odds of him being the next Maddux are infinitesimal?

SEALgep
02-12-2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by poorme
You mean he could be the next Maddux or the odds of him being the next Maddux are infinitesimal? No, I just meant Maddux is a pitcher who throws in the high 80's and has still been an effective pitcher.

Rex Hudler
02-12-2004, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Daver
This is a kid two years out of HS,he still does not have an adult body,and the velocity drop everyone is so concerned with was caused more by pitching double the number of innings he has ever pitched in his life in a season, then from any real injury,he is getting back to what he threw in HS.

I still really hate the radar gun and think it should be banned from every level of baseball other than MLB,that stupid thing has wounded more pitchers than it has ever helped.


But then again,what the hell do I know? ©

I too have heard he never threw as hard as his "scouting reports" in HS, but then again, who does? Seems every pitcher that is a possible first round pick throws at least 93.

Daver, I mostly agree with you on the radar gun. It does have its uses, but the bad can certainly outweigh the good sometimes.

Daver
02-12-2004, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I too have heard he never threw as hard as his "scouting reports" in HS, but then again, who does? Seems every pitcher that is a possible first round pick throws at least 93.



In this case I know it for a fact,I watched every home game Honel pitched in as a HSer.

I picked him to have top of the rotation stuff when I saw him then,and nothing has changed my mind since.

Rex Hudler
02-12-2004, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Daver
In this case I know it for a fact,I watched every home game Honel pitched in as a HSer.

I picked him to have top of the rotation stuff when I saw him then,and nothing has changed my mind since.

I hope you are right. I am looking forward to seeing him on a regular basis this year.

minastirith67
02-13-2004, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Daver
In this case I know it for a fact,I watched every home game Honel pitched in as a HSer.

I picked him to have top of the rotation stuff when I saw him then,and nothing has changed my mind since.


You were lucky to see him then. He *should* have gone to the high school in his (and mine) local town, Bradley-Bourbonnais. At least with us he had a decent chance of winning class AA baseball championship, which we did in 2001. He and Wade Greenlee would've made a great partnership.

jeremyb1
02-13-2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Another Sox pitcher loses velocity. We haven't seen that before...

Billy Botch
Howry
Rauch
Baldwin
Parque
K. Wells (Then regained it mysteriously with the Pirates)
D. Wright.

This is like an ongoing thing. I would like to throw-up.

Fans seem to assume this all the time, that problems our organization have are unique to our methods and don't exist in other organizations. Howry, Rauch, Baldwin, and Parque all lost velocity because they had shoulder surgery. That is pretty common. With Wright (and perhaps Honel too) young, raw pitchers often lose velocity moving through the minors because they have to refine their pitching to increase control and add movement often losing velocity in the process.

SoxxoS
02-13-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Fans seem to assume this all the time, that problems our organization have are unique to our methods and don't exist in other organizations. Howry, Rauch, Baldwin, and Parque all lost velocity because they had shoulder surgery. That is pretty common. With Wright (and perhaps Honel too) young, raw pitchers often lose velocity moving through the minors because they have to refine their pitching to increase control and add movement often losing velocity in the process.

jeremy-that run of Torn Labrums was rediculous.

You know it's bad when Hal has the handle "Torn Labrum."