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View Full Version : Dodger fans don't want Frank


Gammons Peter
02-10-2004, 03:37 PM
http://www.forums.mlb.com/ml-dodgers


The posters on the Dodger site seem to think that the Perez for Frank deal is a rip-off (for them). I haven't read many positive reactions to this trade. Most of the posts seem to think the trade is one for one, they're not even aware of the fact that we are also seeking their best prospects!!

Palehose13
02-10-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Gammons Peter
http://www.forums.mlb.com/ml-dodgers


The posters on the Dodger site seem to think that the Perez for Frank deal is a rip-off (for them). I haven't read many positive reactions to this trade. Most of the posts seem to think the trade is one for one, they're not even aware of the fact that we are also seeking their best prospects!!

They are right, a Thomas for Perez only deal is a rip-off...but for us! A medicore season for the typical MLB player is a bad season for Frank. A medicore season seems to be the norm for Perez.

SEALgep
02-10-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Gammons Peter
http://www.forums.mlb.com/ml-dodgers


The posters on the Dodger site seem to think that the Perez for Frank deal is a rip-off (for them). I haven't read many positive reactions to this trade. Most of the posts seem to think the trade is one for one, they're not even aware of the fact that we are also seeking their best prospects!!

They want something for nothing. Life would be great if that was the case, but they don't have to give up a thing. Although they won't make the playoffs, or even be competitive for that matter.

sas1974
02-10-2004, 03:43 PM
I am glad they don't want him, because I don't want to give them to him.

ma-gaga
02-10-2004, 04:29 PM
geeze, can you imagine, they overvalue their players?!?

Thank god we don't do that.

:)

Baby Fisk
02-10-2004, 04:34 PM
Reading a lot of the regular posts on WSI, you'd think that Sox fans don't want Frank either...

SEALgep
02-10-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
Reading a lot of the regular posts on WSI, you'd think that Sox fans don't want Frank either...
You get all types on this forum. However, I think the majority of people don't want to get rid of Frank, but are willing to if we get a good deal for him that would help solidify our pitching for now and the future.

Deadguy
02-10-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Gammons Peter
http://www.forums.mlb.com/ml-dodgers


The posters on the Dodger site seem to think that the Perez for Frank deal is a rip-off (for them). I haven't read many positive reactions to this trade. Most of the posts seem to think the trade is one for one, they're not even aware of the fact that we are also seeking their best prospects!!

I didn't bother going over there, because I know reading the posts would probably piss me off, and I'd end up wasting the next couple of hours getting into a pissing match with a bunch of idiots from LaLa land.

It's not really surprising though. The national perception of Thomas is the same as that of his friends Mo Vaughn and Ken Griffey Jr. They figure that if Thomas is traded there, he'll just completely disappear, and underachieve for the duration of the contract.

What they don't realize is how much better Thomas performs when he plays 1B, or the fact that at 6 million dollars, he puts up similar production as guys like Thome, Giambi, Bagwell, Delgado, Sweeney, etc., at a fraction of the price. Plus, he had an OPS that was 140 points higher than anyone on the Dodgers last season. It's their loss, not ours.

TaylorStSox
02-10-2004, 05:16 PM
Have you guys noticed that they don't even consider money to be much of a factor. On here we talk about ways to work under a budget and getting players at a bargain. Hardly anyone over there has addressed the fact that Thomas' production vs. salary is awesome.

On the other hand, we overvalue Frank's worth to them. A right handed pull hitter in that park isn't going to produce like he would here. He'll have to figure out how to drive the ball the other way like the Frank of old. My impression of their park is that it's more suited for guys who hit the gaps and go the other way.

LATruBlue
02-10-2004, 06:13 PM
I post on that Dodger board often. Trust me, they are well aware of what you guys want in return for Frank. They are also aware of Frank's salary compared to Konerko's and they are also aware of Frank's perceived defensive deficiencies compared to Konerko's. So to think of them as not being knowledgeable is wrong. And it would be wrong for us to think the same of you all.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how right or wrong it may be. You may feel that Frank's abilities warrant more than we want to offer and that's ok. You guys know Frank's abilities having seen him produce for many years. Likewise, we know what Perez can do. We seen him throw a no-hitter and about four other near no-hitters (1 and 2 hitters into the eighth inning), so we know what he is capable of. But that's ok we all feel the same way.

Concerning our ability to get into the playoffs, well, we would have had a much better chance had not Brian Jordan nor Fred McGriff gotten hurt, our 3 and 4 hitters, but that's here nor there as of today.

Yet I think we can all agree that it is easier to find really good hitters on the free agent market more so than it is to find really good pitchers. So as long as the Dodgers bide their time, they can obtain the hitting they need without giving up the pitching they have.

SEALgep
02-10-2004, 06:17 PM
Not this season they can't.

LATruBlue
02-10-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Not this season they can't.

Can't what? Find a hitter or make the playoffs?

SEALgep
02-10-2004, 06:22 PM
Find a FA hitter that will be good enough to help you get over the hump. But since you brought it up, without that hitter, playoff hopes dramatically diminish.

rdivaldi
02-10-2004, 06:26 PM
So as long as the Dodgers bide their time, they can obtain the hitting they need without giving up the pitching they have.

That's a pie in the sky scenario. To get something you have to give up something, that's just the way it works. What I'm observing right now is that the Dodgers are overvaluing their prospects. For every superstar that comes out of your system, there are 50 busts. While I absolutely agree that Jackson and Miller are superb young pitchers, they are both vastly unproven. Anything could happen to these guys. Injuries, Rick Ankiel syndrome, anything.....

LATruBlue
02-10-2004, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Find a FA hitter that will be good enough to help you get over the hump. But since you brought it up, without that hitter, playoff hopes dramatically diminish.

No doubt. All the good free agent hitters are gone this year. McCourt screwed us in getting Vlad who was sure to sign with us but's that's spilled milk.

So we play through the season and wait next year for the likes of a Maggs, Beltran, Hidalgo?. Nomo's contract expires ($8 million) in 2004. So there's some additional freed up money. We beef up our hitting and keep our young pitching corp intact. Seems like a good plan to me. Wouldn't you agree?

SEALgep
02-10-2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
No doubt. All the good free agent hitters are gone this year. McCourt screwed us in getting Vlad who was sure to sign with us but's that's spilled milk.

So we play through the season and wait next year for the likes of a Maggs, Beltran, Hidalgo?. Nomo's contract expires ($8 million) in 2004. So there's some additional freed up money. We beef up our hitting and keep our young pitching corp intact. Seems like a good plan to me. Wouldn't you agree? It depends. The prospects need to pan out, but even though Jackson is the number 5 this year, Miller is still a couple years away. Assuming they don't go through any growing pains, there is still the question of what FA you can outbid for if McCourt cuts payroll as you have so anticipated. Also the longer you don't maximize the pitching staff you currently have, the more it will get older and broken up. Brown and Quantrill are gone, who's next. If Perez is really the club house cancer they make him out to be, he might a casualty next year. I'm not saying things won't turn out okay, the Dodgers have a good team, but there are question marks. I'm not saying make a trade, I'm just saying that the team could be competitive with a premeire right handed bat, and to not capitalize on it this year leaves risk for next year and so forth. It's a gamble to just consider this year a wash.

LATruBlue
02-10-2004, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
It depends. The prospects need to pan out, but even though Jackson is the number 5 this year, Miller is still a couple years away. Assuming they don't go through any growing pains, there is still the question of what FA you can outbid for if McCourt cuts payroll as you have so anticipated. Also the longer you don't maximize the pitching staff you currently have, the more it will get older and broken up. Brown and Quantrill are gone, who's next. If Perez is really the club house cancer they make him out to be, he might a casualty next year. I'm not saying things won't turn out okay, the Dodgers have a good team, but there are question marks. I'm not saying make a trade, I'm just saying that the team could be competitive with a premeire right handed bat, and to not capitalize on it this year leaves risk for next year and so forth. It's a gamble to just consider this year a wash.

Of course, we all (Dodger fans that is) hope the prospects pan out. Jackson is highly regarded by Baseball America, the Dodgers, Ken Gurnick, and even KW. And he has already proven himself to some degree by having pitched in four games last year. He out pitched the Big Unit to top it off. Greg Miller is actually projected to vie for a starting spot in 2005. That's when Darren Dreifort's $11 million dollar salary comes off the payroll. As far as the pitching staff getting older and broken up, I think the Dodgers coaches have shown that they have a good handle on how to keep the pitching staff strong and viable. As far as Perez being a clubhouse cancer, he is expected to be a casualty THIS year, so that's no suprise, especially if we get Maddux as all rumors seem to indicate. Yes, we ALL have question marks and we have to play the game to find out what those question marks are. A premier bat would undoubtedly help our squad, but to what degree to you try to obtain a bat? I think as an example, what you guys are asking for borders on complete and total favoritism on your guys side as opposed to being relatively equal and fair. I don't think that it's a gamble to consider this year a wash, heck it is a wash this year. Next year is when the Dodgers stand to gain provided that McCourt doesn't go super cheap on us. But like I iterated earlier, we will lose $8 million after this year with Nomo's contract and $11 million the year after that with Dreifort's contract. We should be able to pick up a really good hitter with that money, given that McCourt has said on more than one occasion that he plans on keeping the Dodgers on a $100 million payroll. So I think the Dodgers are in good shape provided McCourt holds up his end of the deal.

SEALgep
02-10-2004, 07:15 PM
If that's the case, it sounds like a plan.

SEALgep
02-10-2004, 07:22 PM
Oh ya, I should include that the reason it appears that we are asking for a lot is because we don't want to trade these guys. The only way we would consider it is if it became a deal we couldn't refuse. Obviously that doesn't sound good to the opposing team. That's the scenerio though.

LATruBlue
02-10-2004, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by rdivaldi
That's a pie in the sky scenario. To get something you have to give up something, that's just the way it works. What I'm observing right now is that the Dodgers are overvaluing their prospects. For every superstar that comes out of your system, there are 50 busts. While I absolutely agree that Jackson and Miller are superb young pitchers, they are both vastly unproven. Anything could happen to these guys. Injuries, Rick Ankiel syndrome, anything.....

No it's not. To get something you have to give something is one way to do it, but they can wait for free agency without having to give up any pitching. That's a plain and simple fact. Are the Dodgers over valueing their pitching? Maybe, maybe not. It's one thing to listen to just the Dodgers toot their own prospects, but I think you can agree that it is NOT just the Dodgers. Jackson and Miller are highly documented as far as their abilities. KW is holding out to get one of them. So is he over valueing their abilities? I've read many a post here saying how if KW gets one or both of them then he would have pulled off a coup and would be laughing at the Dodgers for their stupidity (to paraphrase).
As far as saying that they are unproven, well sure, they are unproven at the major league level but most indicators point toward their success. Oh and btw, injuries can hinder anyone's progress or success, it's not just relegated to prospects only.

A. Cavatica
02-10-2004, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
what you guys are asking for borders on complete and total favoritism on your guys side as opposed to being relatively equal and fair

Of course, we don't actually know what KW is asking for. We don't want him to get fleeced, and most of us don't really trust him in this regard. But Frank damn well ought to bring Perez, Jackson/Miller, and a third player.

Frank is a future HOFer, the best hitter in Sox history, and (so far) has played his entire career in Chicago. He's still an awesome hitter, and at $8M he's a bargain, though the $2M trade kicker sucks for you guys. He's not much of a first baseman, but his hitting more than compensates. Plus, if he agrees to go to LA, it'll be for more than one year.

Consider that McCourt has cost himself negotiating leverage by promsing to bring in a big hitter by spring training, and by specifically mentioning Frank. He's going to look like a total ass if he doesn't get it done!

Also consider that the Sox had to give up three good prospects to get Carl Everett for half a season. Carl's not in Frank's league as a hitter, can't field any better, and has way more baggage than Frank. The prospects we gave up were certainly further away from the majors than Jackson or Miller, but two of them at least are likely to get there.

Our understanding is the Dodgers have been trying pretty hard to unload Perez. Fine, we'll let you include him. But a future HOFer that still has productive years ahead is easily worth more than a "can't-miss" prospect. If KW settles for less he'll be crucified.

SEALgep
02-10-2004, 08:40 PM
Frank is actually more of a bargain. He's making 6 million this year, not 8. He'll make 8 million next year, still a bargain.

hftrex
02-10-2004, 08:46 PM
If the LA Druggies aren't willing to give up their best prospects for Frank, then it should be no go.

SEALgep
02-10-2004, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by hftrex
If the LA Druggies aren't willing to give up their best prospects for Frank, then it should be no go. Fortunately, I believe that to be the case.

LATruBlue
02-10-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by hftrex
If the LA Druggies aren't willing to give up their best prospects for Frank, then it should be no go.

The LA Druggies? You can rest assure that I won't call your Chicago White Sox anything other than their proud name.

A. Cavatica
02-10-2004, 09:36 PM
Hey! That's the Black Sox, and don't you forget it!

soxfan26
02-10-2004, 09:38 PM
I honestly don't think a Thomas for Perez deal is good for either team. Most of the trade rumors between the Dodgers and Sox this offseason have been bad ideas. IMO, that is why we have not seen one pulled off yet.

If I'm a dodger fan I would not want to give up a quality LHP and a top prospect for Thomas.

As a Sox fan I don't want to give up Thomas. The only way I could stomach a trade involving Thomas is if it made us a better team now.

pearso66
02-11-2004, 12:00 AM
The reason that KW is holding out for such a high price is because he is in the drivers seat. We don't really need to get this deal done. The Dodgers are the ones who want a big hitter. KW is perfectly happy with our chances to win the division this year, and this trade could potentially just improve our hopes. But since we don't need to do it in order to be front runners, I think we are, KW thinks we are I'm sure, there is no reason to give up some of our players who the Dodgers need to win for what the Dodgers want to give up. I hope that KW stands where he is at and demands either Jackson or Miller, or LA gets nothing. I have no problem going into the season with the team we have now.

Sorry that seems jumbled and may not make sense, I am doing multiple things at a time

Man Soo Lee
02-11-2004, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
No it's not. To get something you have to give something is one way to do it, but they can wait for free agency without having to give up any pitching. That's a plain and simple fact.

Besides the fact that it hurts the Dodgers' chances this year, the problem with just waiting until free agency to acquire a bat is that there will be a lot of other holes to fill then. You noted that Nomo's free agency will free up $8M, but isn't he also your best returning starter? Perez and Beltre will also be free agents next winter, so that's two more holes to fill.

SEALgep
02-11-2004, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
Besides the fact that it hurts the Dodgers' chances this year, the problem with just waiting until free agency to acquire a bat is that there will be a lot of other holes to fill then. You noted that Nomo's free agency will free up $8M, but isn't he also your best returning starter? Perez and Beltre will also be free agents next winter, so that's two more holes to fill.
Not that you can't make a competitive bid for some of these Premeire guys next year, but you have to also realize that the price can be driven pretty high because there is going to be a lot of interest in guys like Nomar, Maggs, and Beltran.

Iwritecode
02-11-2004, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Frank is actually more of a bargain. He's making 6 million this year, not 8. He'll make 8 million next year, still a bargain.

It's written in his contract that if he gets traded this year, he'll get an extra 2 million.

Even so, Frank is still the better bargain...

SEALgep
02-11-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
It's written in his contract that if he gets traded this year, he'll get an extra 2 million.

Even so, Frank is still the better bargain...

You're right, I meant from our perspective. Still a good deal. Barry Zito said on 670 AM this morning that Frank is one of the best hitters. He said there's no real scouting report on him because he can adjust very well.