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ukigdog
02-09-2004, 03:28 PM
We are very close to spring training and i am very excited about the season ahead. The way I look at the white sox is simple:

1. We have pretty much the same team as we did in the start of last season minus a bonafied starter in Colon.

2. I think that Gordon and Sullivan losses will be covered by Pollite and Shingo.

3. The 15 games that colon won us will be missed, but i think that we can take care of a chunk:

Last year:
1. Loaiza (21 W)
2. Colon (15 W)
3. Buehrle (14 W)
4. Garland (12 W)
5. combination of starters (10 W)

2004 Projected by my account:
1. Buehrle (18-20 W)
2. Loaiza (15-20 W)
3. Garland (14-16 W)
4. Schoenweis (12-14 W)
5. combination of starters (10 W)

If you look at the difference, were talking about a slightly worse rotation.

4. Our lineup is the exact same as the start of last season.

So what does all this mean?? Well its simple. The sox have a very similar team to that of opening day of last season, with a worse starting pitching staff. But there are a number of upsides to the season. Konerko could have a bigger year. Koch can turn it around. And biggest of all, Ozzie is our coach, the root of last years problem is gone.

I think many should get exctied, for we have a similar team to last year at the start of a season with a new, fiery, more aggresive coach, with many plus sides that can happen. Finally, on top of all of this, the other teams in our division can be argued as being worse off. Personally, i like our chances.

Think of it this way. How many of us really thought at the beginning of last season the cubs were gonna go to NLCS and the marlins were gonna win it all. Here is the answer, NOONE!!! ALOT can happen in the course of a season, and that alone should make us excited about our team next season. The white sox are still pretty darn good!

What peeves me is this media crap that we are not gonna be good because we dont get players. That is such crap. If you look at it, everyone was saying how good our rotation was last year with colon, and we lost him. So what, he wasnt that good. He won 15 games. Buehrle won 14 and just as easily can with 20 this year with a new contract. So much can easily happen over this season, even trades for a Everett and Alomar caliber at trade deadline. All that is fact right now is that everyone is 0-0 and we are all tied for first. Until we are out of the pennant race i see no reason why we cannot be excited about this season cause our chances look real good for us to be the next anaheim or florida.

GO SOXX!!!

SoxRulecubsdrool
02-09-2004, 03:33 PM
Who's NOONE and what are his predictions for this year?

The guy must be pretty smart.

ukigdog
02-09-2004, 03:34 PM
NOONE as in there is no one at this time last year that would have said the cubs would make the nlcs and the marlins would win the world series

Mickster
02-09-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by SoxRulecubsdrool
Who's NOONE and what are his predictions for this year?

The guy must be pretty smart.

Awesome! LOL

ChiSox65
02-09-2004, 03:41 PM
What about the loss of Gordon and Sullivan? We need to be able to save some of these wins. Mr. #1 save guy in Japan throws in the mid 80's.....how long till MLB players figure him out?
Billy Koch?.....ha...........I'll believe it when i see it.

:gulp:

ukigdog
02-09-2004, 03:43 PM
i think that Sullivan and Shingo will be a wash, gordons roll will be covered by combination of Politte and new Koch.

sas1974
02-09-2004, 03:45 PM
I like your optimism. It's a welcome sight on this site. I tend to agree with you on this one. I am taking a wait and see approach on this one. It could go either way this year. In baseball, you just never know...anything can happen.

ukigdog
02-09-2004, 03:48 PM
exaclty my point. I just hate how alot of people are counting us out for 2004, i think you have to be nuts to do that in February. I am a die hard Sox fan and im excited about this year, a fresh start and a new coach.

hold2dibber
02-09-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by ukigdog
We are very close to spring training and i am very excited about the season ahead. The way I look at the white sox is simple:

1. We have pretty much the same team as we did in the start of last season minus a bonafied starter in Colon.

2. I think that Gordon and Sullivan losses will be covered by Pollite and Shingo.

3. The 15 games that colon won us will be missed, but i think that we can take care of a chunk:

Last year:
1. Loaiza (21 W)
2. Colon (15 W)
3. Buehrle (14 W)
4. Garland (12 W)
5. combination of starters (10 W)

2004 Projected by my account:
1. Buehrle (18-20 W)
2. Loaiza (15-20 W)
3. Garland (14-16 W)
4. Schoenweis (12-14 W)
5. combination of starters (10 W)

If you look at the difference, were talking about a slightly worse rotation.

4. Our lineup is the exact same as the start of last season.

So what does all this mean?? Well its simple. The sox have a very similar team to that of opening day of last season, with a worse starting pitching staff. But there are a number of upsides to the season. Konerko could have a bigger year. Koch can turn it around. And biggest of all, Ozzie is our coach, the root of last years problem is gone.

I think many should get exctied, for we have a similar team to last year at the start of a season with a new, fiery, more aggresive coach, with many plus sides that can happen. Finally, on top of all of this, the other teams in our division can be argued as being worse off. Personally, i like our chances.

Think of it this way. How many of us really thought at the beginning of last season the cubs were gonna go to NLCS and the marlins were gonna win it all. Here is the answer, NOONE!!! ALOT can happen in the course of a season, and that alone should make us excited about our team next season. The white sox are still pretty darn good!

What peeves me is this media crap that we are not gonna be good because we dont get players. That is such crap. If you look at it, everyone was saying how good our rotation was last year with colon, and we lost him. So what, he wasnt that good. He won 15 games. Buehrle won 14 and just as easily can with 20 this year with a new contract. So much can easily happen over this season, even trades for a Everett and Alomar caliber at trade deadline. All that is fact right now is that everyone is 0-0 and we are all tied for first. Until we are out of the pennant race i see no reason why we cannot be excited about this season cause our chances look real good for us to be the next anaheim or florida.

GO SOXX!!!

Well, that's a very "glass is half full" kind of analysis, but you fail to address several key points:

(1) Colon not only won 15 games, he pitched nearly 250 innings. He was an absolute work horse. His not being here puts a much bigger strain on the bullpen.

(2) Buehrle has gotten worse every year since '01. I'm not saying he won't reverse that trend this year, but it is certainly far from a foregone conclusion that he'll become an ace again.

(3) The line-up isn't exactly the same as it was at the start of last year. In particular, Jimenez was at 2B, not Harris. And while Jimenez is a bonehead, he was really good with the stick at the beginning of last year hitting lead-off. If Willie Harris can't get it done in the lead-off spot, the Sox are screwed.

(4) The team that we started the season with last year was horrible. It wasn't until KW made a bunch of mid-season acquisitions that the team really took off. And all of those mid-season acquisitions have since departed.

(5) Maybe Politte and Shingo will be as good as Gordon and Sullivan were last year. But neither of them were as good as the departed relievers last year (and Shingo was playing in an inferior league at the time). So neither are good bets to pitch at the same level that Gordon and Sullivan pitched at last year.

You're right in that if a lot of things break right for the Sox, they might be able to win this pathetic division. But if a lot of things don't break right for the Sox, they might fail to win 75 games. Too many "if's" to get particularly excited about, IMHO.

bennyw41
02-09-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
You're right in that if a lot of things break right for the Sox, they might be able to win this pathetic division. But if a lot of things don't break right for the Sox, they might fail to win 75 games. Too many "if's" to get particularly excited about, IMHO. [/B]


No offense, but why follow the team then? I am glad he brought some positives to this board. I am really getting tired of all the negativity, without one pitch being thrown.

ukigdog
02-09-2004, 03:58 PM
Okay heres my take on your points.

1. Colon was a workhorse your right about that. That ill give you

2. Buehrle has gotten worse, but i think some may deal with the fact he wasnt gettin the money he thought he deserved. Youll see a new buehrle i think and I see him with more than 14 victories none the less a plus from last year.

3. I like Harris more than jimenez at leadoff. He has yet to prove he can hit here, but then agian he hasnt gotten the opportunity to be an every day player. He looks to be in the same mold of Juan Pierre in his slap hitting style and speed, and i think his speed will get him on base more than jimenez.

4. You can argue that last years team was horrible, but i think it was coaching and not a horrible team. We started playing good i think before we aquired everett and alomar. No doubt we played good when they were here, but i think it was before the acquisitions that we started to get out of our slumps offensively.

5. I agree that if you trade Shingo and Politte for gordon and sullivan its somewhat a loss, but i think that it is more like koch, shingo and pollite for gordon and sullivan. There i think it is equal if not better. I think Koch;s problems last year stemmed from being overworked in oakland, kind of what happened to Foulke here two years ago. What happened to foulke last year? I see it from Koch this year as well.

Finally, yes you do say some valid points, but i also see good from just as many points as well. Alot does have to go right for us, but one thing i know is that id rather have them go right under a manger like ozzie and not manuel I think ozzie alone will help some of these things go right.

Lastly, the final fact , and the only fact right now is that we are 0-0 like i stated and in first place. There is no reason why we shouldnt be excited about our season!

sas1974
02-09-2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
(4) The team that we started the season with last year was horrible. It wasn't until KW made a bunch of mid-season acquisitions that the team really took off. And all of those mid-season acquisitions have since departed.

The team that started the season last year wasn't horrible. Do you recall how excited people were about it? It was almost exactly the same team from the year before that scored 856 runs and belted 217 home runs. We "were supposed to be" the same offensive power house w/ the addition of Bartolo Colon. They underachieved! Or perhaps they just overachieved the year before...

hold2dibber
02-09-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by bennyw41
No offense, but why follow the team then? I am glad he brought some positives to this board. I am really getting tired of all the negativity, without one pitch being thrown.

Are you suggesting that one should only be a fan if he believes the team has a legitimate chance to win each year? I'm a Sox fan and follow the team every year, regardless of whether they suck or not. But I'm not going to pretend like the Sox have a juggernaut of a team when it is quite obvious that they do not.

And my response wasn't negative (although I certainly believe Sox fans have every reason to be negative going into the '04 season). I said the original post might be right, but also might be wrong (e.g., Buehrle may get better, he may not, Harris may be good enough, he may not, Colon ate up a lot of innings, etc.) My point was not that the Sox will necessarily suck. Just that expecting every "if" to break in the Sox favor is not realistic. Could happen, but probably won't.

ChiSox65
02-09-2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by ukigdog
exaclty my point. I just hate how alot of people are counting us out for 2004, i think you have to be nuts to do that in February. I am a die hard Sox fan and im excited about this year, a fresh start and a new coach.

I'm not counting us out, It just frustrates me that this division is like a $5 hooker......we have $4.50 in our pocket and Jerry won't give us another .50cent

:gulp: "Drink Guinness from a bottle??............BRILLIANT"

sas1974
02-09-2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Are you suggesting that one should only be a fan if he believes the team has a legitimate chance to win each year? I'm a Sox fan and follow the team every year, regardless of whether they suck or not. But I'm not going to pretend like the Sox have a juggernaut of a team when it is quite obvious that they do not.

And my response wasn't negative (although I certainly believe Sox fans have every reason to be negative going into the '04 season). I said the original post might be right, but also might be wrong (e.g., Buehrle may get better, he may not, Harris may be good enough, he may not, Colon ate up a lot of innings, etc.) My point was not that the Sox will necessarily suck. Just that expecting every "if" to break in the Sox favor is not realistic. Could happen, but probably won't.

I agree with you 100%. There are A LOT of "ifs" this year. Some look at the glass half empty, some look at it half full. To each his own. I agree that the team hasn't done anything in particular to get excited about, but I am still excited for the season start.

hold2dibber
02-09-2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
The team that started the season last year wasn't horrible. Do you recall how excited people were about it? It was almost exactly the same team from the year before that scored 856 runs and belted 217 home runs. We "were supposed to be" the same offensive power house w/ the addition of Bartolo Colon. They underachieved! Or perhaps they just overachieved the year before...

I for one didn't get excited about last year's team until they signed Colon and Gordon. Colon and Gordon are now gone and the Sox haven't replaced them with anyone of the same talent level (especially Colon).

ukigdog
02-09-2004, 04:14 PM
ok i see your point how we have 4.50 and just need 50 more cents, but if you thinkabout it that is what it was like last year. We had 4.50 and jr went out to get us colon to put us up top. Everyone thought that we had a winner for sure. Where did that get us?? I think that its more like we have 4.75, and the rest of the division has 4.50 and less. As long as we can stay the front runners, the hooker will drop her price to the highest bidder, and when that time comes KW and JR will trade for that CF or 2B or SP again and get us to the post season this time under a better manager!

poorme
02-09-2004, 04:16 PM
I used to make fun of Cub fans for their illogical optimism. Guess I'll have to stop doing that now that I've found this site...

sas1974
02-09-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I for one didn't get excited about last year's team until they signed Colon and Gordon. Colon and Gordon are now gone and the Sox haven't replaced them with anyone of the same talent level (especially Colon).

Same here...and I wasn't even all that excited about Gordon at the time. I was just hoping they would build(or AT LEAST sustain) on their offensive numbers and figured that Colon was just anchor to the pitching staff that we needed. Unfortunately our offensive regressed and we all now how the rest of that story goes...

hold2dibber
02-09-2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by sas1974
Same here...and I wasn't even all that excited about Gordon at the time. I was just hoping they would build(or AT LEAST sustain) on their offensive numbers and figured that Colon was just anchor to the pitching staff that we needed. Unfortunately our offensive regressed and we all now how the rest of that story goes...

And in fact, the Sox pitching regressed in a lot of ways last year. Loaiza being the notable exception. Three of the team's 5 starting pitchers were worse last year than the year before (Colon, Buehrle and Wright), 1 was about the same (Garland) and one was much better (Loaiza). If Loaiza doesn't remain close to the same level and Buehrle AND Garland don't improve substantially, I just can't see this team being any better than .500.

npdempse
02-09-2004, 05:07 PM
How many of those games that he didn't win last year were 1-0 losses? I think it was a couple, and IIRC, one was a loss to the TIGERS--the kicker to letting Cotts pitch Buehrle's game in Yankee Stadium.

I also remember him losing a couple, especially one in Seattle, that took major turns for the worse after horrible defensive blunders.

I think this thing about Buehrle being on a downturn is a figment of some imaginations, plus some bad breaks.

When the heck did I become an optimist? :?:

chisoxmike
02-09-2004, 05:08 PM
I LOVE the $5 hooker reference... can I use it???

Anyway, I've said this before, but our team isn't as bad as people say we are. We've lost a lot, and haven't gained much. Pollette? Um, I highly doubt he will be as stong as Gordon and Sullivan were to the bullpen, but we'll see.

Losing Colon, although his record was average, his innings worked was what he was valued for, and some games he lost was becuase our offense couldn't score him runs. Or Jerry wouldn't pull him out of the game. (ie, Sox vs. Giants, slam in the top of the 9th when Sox were up.)

Lineup (if it holds through spring training knowing all the rumors going around) has a lethal heart of the order. Thomas, Maggs, Lee can serve as a deadly RBI combo if the bottom and top of the order GET ON BASE which has been the problem in recent years. Konerko (I think) can and will bounce back, and Crede NEEDS to live up to his potential.

PINWHEELS
02-09-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox65
I'm not counting us out, It just frustrates me that this division is like a $5 hooker......we have $4.50 in our pocket and Jerry won't give us another .50cent

:gulp: "Drink Guinness from a bottle??............BRILLIANT" So what your saying is we won't get lucky this season?

sas1974
02-09-2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
And in fact, the Sox pitching regressed in a lot of ways last year. Loaiza being the notable exception. Three of the team's 5 starting pitchers were worse last year than the year before (Colon, Buehrle and Wright), 1 was about the same (Garland) and one was much better (Loaiza). If Loaiza doesn't remain close to the same level and Buehrle AND Garland don't improve substantially, I just can't see this team being any better than .500.

Which of course takes us back to more "ifs." I think we're on the same page here. I don't like being put in the position where every year we have to pray that a couple of guys have career years and we find a few diamonds in the rough just to have any chance to make the playoffs. But, the truth is that most teams have to deal with this every year, with only a couple of exceptions (Braves, Yankees).

ChiSox65
02-09-2004, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by PINWHEELS
So what your saying is we won't get lucky this season?

Fiesty, I haven't got lucky since that night in the hotel room in Cleveland.

They got some of my money in Cleveland. :gulp:

hold2dibber
02-09-2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by npdempse
How many of those games that he didn't win last year were 1-0 losses? I think it was a couple, and IIRC, one was a loss to the TIGERS--the kicker to letting Cotts pitch Buehrle's game in Yankee Stadium.

I also remember him losing a couple, especially one in Seattle, that took major turns for the worse after horrible defensive blunders.

I think this thing about Buehrle being on a downturn is a figment of some imaginations, plus some bad breaks.

When the heck did I become an optimist? :?:

You're thinking of Loaiza, who lost two 1-0 games to the mighty Tigers.

Buehrle being on a downturn is not a figment of some imaginations. It is impossible to ignore. For example, look at these stats for 2001, 2002 and 2003 (in order):

ERA: 3.29, 3.58, 4.14
WHIP: 1.07, 1.24, 1.35
K/BB: 2.63, 2.20, 1.95
K/9IP: 5.12, 5.05, 4.65
ERA+: 140, 129, 108
BAA: .230, .260, .278

See a trend here? Buehrle may have had some bad luck last year. His W-L record probably should have been better and he did pitch a lot better over the last several months. But you cannot deny that, overall, he has regressed in each of the last two years. It's a disturbing trend. Doesn't mean he's not going to turn it around, but you certainly can't say that its not a trend. He's walking more guys, striking out fewer guys, giving up more hits and allowing more runs. That's not a figment, that's the cold hard truth.

ChiSox65
02-09-2004, 06:02 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chisoxmike
[B]I LOVE the $5 hooker reference... can I use it??? ...





Fly with it baby!!!!!!!


:gulp:

ChiSox65
02-09-2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
You're thinking of Loaiza, who lost two 1-0 games to the mighty Tigers.

Buehrle being on a downturn is not a figment of some imaginations. It is impossible to ignore. For example, look at these stats for 2001, 2002 and 2003 (in order):

ERA: 3.29, 3.58, 4.14
WHIP: 1.07, 1.24, 1.35
K/BB: 2.63, 2.20, 1.95
K/9IP: 5.12, 5.05, 4.65
ERA+: 140, 129, 108
BAA: .230, .260, .278

See a trend here? ...........

Great stats bro............I was checking the fantasy ratings for starters and he was down near 60. This will be a telling year for him.

Daver
02-09-2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
You're thinking of Loaiza, who lost two 1-0 games to the mighty Tigers.

Buehrle being on a downturn is not a figment of some imaginations. It is impossible to ignore. For example, look at these stats for 2001, 2002 and 2003 (in order):

ERA: 3.29, 3.58, 4.14
WHIP: 1.07, 1.24, 1.35
K/BB: 2.63, 2.20, 1.95
K/9IP: 5.12, 5.05, 4.65
ERA+: 140, 129, 108
BAA: .230, .260, .278

See a trend here? Buehrle may have had some bad luck last year. His W-L record probably should have been better and he did pitch a lot better over the last several months. But you cannot deny that, overall, he has regressed in each of the last two years. It's a disturbing trend. Doesn't mean he's not going to turn it around, but you certainly can't say that its not a trend. He's walking more guys, striking out fewer guys, giving up more hits and allowing more runs. That's not a figment, that's the cold hard truth.

To keep this in perspective,most MLB pitchers hit their peak at 27,or after roughly 5 years in the league.This is not true for all pitchers,but a good percentage of them,but keep in mind,for every pitcher you have that comes out of the gate firing you have a guy like Jamie Moyer,who hit his prime at 37 years old.

npdempse
02-09-2004, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
You're thinking of Loaiza, who lost two 1-0 games to the mighty Tigers.


D'oh. Of course.

Buehrle being on a downturn is not a figment of some imaginations. It is impossible to ignore. For example, look at these stats for 2001, 2002 and 2003 (in order):

ERA: 3.29, 3.58, 4.14
WHIP: 1.07, 1.24, 1.35
K/BB: 2.63, 2.20, 1.95
K/9IP: 5.12, 5.05, 4.65
ERA+: 140, 129, 108
BAA: .230, .260, .278


Just for fun, post AS break last year--

ERA: 4.01
WHIP: 1.33
K/BB: 2.65
K/9IP: 5.07
BAA: .284

Yep, a little disturbing, except for the Ks.
So much for optimism. :whiner:

WinningUgly!
02-09-2004, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by npdempse
How many of those games that he didn't win last year were 1-0 losses? I think it was a couple, and IIRC, one was a loss to the TIGERS--the kicker to letting Cotts pitch Buehrle's game in Yankee Stadium.

I also remember him losing a couple, especially one in Seattle, that took major turns for the worse after horrible defensive blunders.

I think this thing about Buehrle being on a downturn is a figment of some imaginations, plus some bad breaks.

When the heck did I become an optimist? :?:

Buehrle didn't lose any 1-0 games last season. You are probably confusing him with Loiaza. There were 7 games in '03 that Buehrle pitched well enough to win, but didn't. He allowed 3 earned runs or less in each of these losses...

Mar. 31 @KC L 3-0
Apr. 15 KC L 8-5
Apr. 25 MIN L 6-1
Jun. 6 @LA L 2-1
Aug. 13 @ANA L 2-1
Sep. 3 BOS L 5-4
Sep. 23 NYY L 7-0

Carolina Kenny
02-09-2004, 10:53 PM
Reasons for optimism shine like the sun, melting the snow once a virgin white and now a dirty soot that has angered the fresh coming of the spring with discontent.

Can we believe another year will solve documented failures at 2nd and Center? Is the Cott like mind that played the immortal Jimenez and Rios gone to ponder other deep thoughts?

Thomas rises like Gog to stride the land with mighty blows. A Reed is heard singing the song of new promise to the sodden flock. Turn to the Lee ward side and to the Magg for solid corners that will not fail.

Look again to the Creed who cannot be silent this year but will say it is so, Joe. And so it is with the heart, the Valentine whose passion burns so deep from every side.

Would the slave name have more mystery if it was a basketball moniker with many tattos? Can speed be taught or can you look inside the guts of a man. Will E or won't E, you find out in due time.

Once in the land you could find a catcher at every turn. They were so plentiful they were discarded like disposable diapers. Our leader was a catcher then and few could compare with his own self image. Though long was our 3rd problem as great was our grief until the Sox left in the wash with the red pajamas gave us the Hall of Fame catcher with our new proud papa Jerry beaming with pride. Catchers that can hit or catchers that can catch, but never do both is what we know to be the real norm, but a catcher who can't catch is not a catcher, this we know.

And pitchers who can't pitch are not pitchers but throwers and throwers who throw are thowers and not pitchers, and we want pitchers and not a glass of water, and I am not on medication but the wind blowing into a knuckleballers face is good and we have no knuckleballers left sad to say.

npdempse
02-09-2004, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Carolina Kenny
Reasons for optimism shine like the sun, melting the snow once a virgin white and now a dirty soot that has angered the fresh coming of the spring with discontent.

...

And pitchers who can't pitch are not pitchers but throwers and throwers who throw are thowers and not pitchers, and we want pitchers and not a glass of water, and I am not on medication but the wind blowing into a knuckleballers face is good and we have no knuckleballers left sad to say.

Who let the web have acid?

I'm really, really frightened. :o:

lowesox
02-09-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by ukigdog
2004 Projected by my account:
1. Buehrle (18-20 W)
2. Loaiza (15-20 W)
3. Garland (14-16 W)
4. Schoenweis (12-14 W)
5. combination of starters (10 W)


Shoenweiss will not win 12 -14 games. And if our number 5 slot spits out 10 wins, it will be out of shear luck.

You know, there are a couple of posts in this thread about how people are being overly negative. Well, I personally am all for the negativity. Remember everyone: after the White flag trade uncle Jerry told us he listens to the fans and builds the team that we want.

Well, if that's true, my negativity is doing a whole lot more for this team's chances than somebody else's blind optimism.