PDA

View Full Version : McCourt's Dodgers wants Thomas


Clarkdog
02-08-2004, 07:54 PM
For what it's worth, in the car this evening I was listening to Newsradio 78 (WBBM). During the brief sports update, it was reported that Frank McCourt (new Dodgers owner) has expressed a desire in obtaining Frank Thomas. It appears the Thomas is the player McCourt wants from the Sox in trade for Odalis Perez. Additional names of players beyond Perez were not mentioned.

To me, if the Sox are going to deal - we will get the most bang for our buck in trading Thomas. But I would hate to do it - so the deal had better have big time value in players beyond just Perez. To me McCourt's overtures could put us in a position of negotiating strength. KW/JR has already been quoted that we are ready to go to Spring Training with the team we have.

The conspiracy theorist in me thinks that a deal is already done - and McCourt opening his mouth is a way to make KW look like he hasn't been shopping his players - when he has been workng with the Dodgers all along.

The report also mentioned the Giants as the slim favorites in the Greg Maddux derby.

SEALgep
02-08-2004, 08:01 PM
Thomas trade talks get me nervous. I would like him to retire in a Sox uniform, and his production would certainly be missed. The talks, however, get me nervous because Frank can veto any trade, and that may put us in a real awkward position. Besides being sentimental and loyal to Frank, trading him wouldn't necessarily turn into a bad move. However, it would most certainly have to be more than Perez. Thomas has an option that can be picked up for next year, so the Dodgers wouldn't be investing in a so-called rentaplayer. We'll see, I'm not sure I want Frank to leave, but at the same time, make us an offer we can't refuse. We hear all sorts of stuff, but assuming this holds some water, what would be adequate in your minds? Perez and ???? Mota? Miller? Mota and Miller?

poorme
02-08-2004, 08:01 PM
1. We'd better get a HECKUVA lot more than Odalis Perez.

2. How could this be a done deal if Thomas won't talk to anyone and he'd have to OK the deal?

Clarkdog
02-08-2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by poorme

2. How could this be a done deal if Thomas won't talk to anyone and he'd have to OK the deal?

Maybe the a deal being worked on is why he isn't talking. He could certainly okay any deal through his agent.

Clarkdog
02-08-2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
We hear all sorts of stuff, but assuming this holds some water, what would be adequate in your minds? Perez and ???? Mota? Miller? Mota and Miller?

For me: Perez, Miller, and Jackson - And I'd do it.

Perez, Mota, and Miller or Jackson - Probably do it.

Mota is okay but he's 31, there is way more upside to the two propects.

Not for anything less than that though.

Rex Hudler
02-08-2004, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
For me: Perez, Miller, and Jackson - And I'd do it.

Perez, Mota, and Miller or Jackson - Probably do it.

Mota is okay but he's 31, there is way more upside to the two propects.

Not for anything less than that though.

I guarantee you won't get either of those three combinations. If this trade is to happen, I would love for it to happen after McCourt dumps Evans. Then, he includes Jackson OR Miller and that player comes to the Sox and becomes a star, while the Dodgers finish 5 games out of first place again in 2004. :)

McCourt is an idiot. If KW tries to trade Frank, he better hold out for one of the big boys.

beckett21
02-08-2004, 08:22 PM
Doesn't surprise me in the least that Thomas is the guy they want, for shock value if nothing else. Question is, will we give him up? I am in the anti-Perez camp myself; he does little to excite me pitching in that pitchers paradise, much less in a deal for Thomas. That would be a serious blow to us offensively, and even if we got Perez for immediate pitching help the net effect would weaken us for this season IMHO. Don't know enough about Jackson and Miller but from what I understand Miller is untouchable per Dan Evans. Not that he is pulling the strings anyway but that is my understanding. I am guessing we would get Mota and Jackson as well. But Miller seems to be the guy they (the Dodgers) are highest on. I will defer this to those who are up on their minor leaguers much moreso than I. It has probably been discussed here already, but if it was I missed the discussion.

One thing I will say...KW has taken a lot of heat from the fans, media and this board, myself included, for not making any moves. To his credit he has not made any moves for the sake of making a move (although losing key free agents was a horrendous non-move). Hopefully he weighs this decision carefully and continues to look at the bigger picture. Thomas is getting up there in age, no doubt, but he is still productive and has been on an upswing over the past couple seasons. If we do trade him we had better get someone with a lot more upside than Odalis Perez along in the deal. If not, we are better off standing pat, as much as it pains me to say that.

SEALgep
02-08-2004, 08:36 PM
I agree, but when a Thomas rumor surfaced earlier in the offseason, KW said don't make an offer for Frank (and Maggs) that insults what they've done in their careers and what they mean to our team.

Daver
02-08-2004, 08:54 PM
Miller and Jackson are pretty much all the Dodgers have left in their system as far as prospects are concerned,Evans has traded almost all of their top level talent,and has not drafted well.The Dodgers rely more on the asian market than most teams do,so that may affect their drafting process,they are also one of the clubs that are pushing for a worldwide draft.

I seriously doubt that Thomas would agree to a trade to the Dodgers not knowing what the fate of the management of the club is eventually going to be.Given the fact that it is common knowledge that McCourt barely squeaked through being admitted by MLB emphasizes this point.

Rex Hudler
02-08-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Miller and Jackson are pretty much all the Dodgers have left in their system as far as prospects are concerned,Evans has traded almost all of their top level talent,and has not drafted well.The Dodgers rely more on the asian market than most teams do,so that may affect their drafting process,they are also one of the clubs that are pushing for a worldwide draft.

I seriously doubt that Thomas would agree to a trade to the Dodgers not knowing what the fate of the management of the club is eventually going to be.Given the fact that it is common knowledge that McCourt barely squeaked through being admitted by MLB emphasizes this point.

Excuse me but the Dodgers system is stronger than it has been in several years. I don't know their system nearly as well as I do the Sox, but off the top of my head, Loney, Gutierrez and Hanrahan are all solid prospects as well.

The Dodgers are set up for success in the next 2-3 years, yet that will not happen because McCourt will get rid of their top prospects trying to compete now with the Angels in the LA market.

Just out of curiosity, what top level talent has Evans traded away other than Ricardo Rodriguez? Who has since been traded again and obviously hasn't turned out.

A. Cavatica
02-08-2004, 09:08 PM
Now this is interesting. MLB frowns on owners publicly lusting after players who belong to other teams, right? So this may be fairly far along.

I'm a little surprised that McCourt wants Frank, because of his defense. But he still hits as well as Maggs, he's cheaper (next year) than either Maggs or Konerko, and he's probably the biggest draw of any of them. I hope KW can talk the Dodgers into taking Konerko instead, or at least Lee, but I'd be open to trading any of our righthanded bats if we got enough in return.

So what would we get in return for Thomas? I think Perez is very likely, because the Dodgers want to move him; I don't think the Sox want Weaver (because of past indiginities, and Boras) and I don't think Ishii is as good as Perez. KW did want Mota, but now that we've signed some bullpen arms (Takatsu, Politte) I don't really see the need to acquire Mota. I don't think there's any way the Dodgers would move BOTH Jackson and Miller, but I think the Sox would walk away from the table unless they get one of them (KW's choice). We have no need to get a corner OF/1B/DH back, so we shouldn't get stuck with Juan Encarnacion. And thank God we have Uribe, because it means we should have no interest in the wretched Cesar Izturis or Alex Cora.

Would I take Perez and Jackson (or Perez and Miller) for Thomas? No, I don't think that's quite enough. Throw in Joe Thurston or a catcher (Dave Ross, Koyie Hill, or a good lower-level prospect -- do the Dodgers have one?) and I'd probably do it.

Perhaps we can find a way to send Gary Majewski to the Dodgers. He's due.

Hangar18
02-08-2004, 09:19 PM
Of Course McCourt Wants THOMAS. Why wouldnt he? the guy is arguably heading to the HOF, the guy can HIT, and the guy is a Star Attraction (Many teams NEED a guy like this, makes you wonder why the SOX freely let guys like this go).
OF Course, teams want ORDONEZ also. The guy can Clear Out HIT. and hes a Star Attraction (though the SOX dont know how to market the guy) also, and Many Teams Would LOVE him on their team also. Lets take a look at the 2 best guys weve got, and the Teams that want them. Thomas and Ordonez are openly Courted by the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Diamondbacks. Now the last two teams say they would love this player, but might not be easy for them as they would have to unload a bunch of people to make room, but Make No Mistake, its only because Other teams will NOT take their Refuse, that makes it impossible for them to acquire these guys. Now....weve established that the teams that ARE ALWAYS LOOKING TO UPGRADE (key term here) are the ones interested in our players. Perez for Thomas? are YOu KIDDING ME?
We better get their 4 best prospects PLUS Perez for Thomas.
Im always INSULTED by the way teams Just ASSUME that the SOX are run by Imbiciles, and our best guys are ALWAYS available....
Trade Thomas & Ordonez for peanuts, and Watch me Not be
A Sox Fan anymore. I dare these Idiots to do it.........
Watch me. IM SICK OF THIS ORGANIZATION and REINSDORF

Hangar18
02-08-2004, 09:23 PM
To add to my Last Post.....Does one see the YANKEES getting rid of players approaching their Prime? No. DOes one see the Yankees Letting Key Free Agents go simply because their "too expensive" ? No. Do the Yankees ever let their team get "worse" in the offseason? No. DO the Yankees ever sit
on their Hands in the offseason? No. Do the Yankees blame their fans for their PR Gaffes? No. Why dont we try to emulate the Yankees? would be a good start I would think
If I was a "businessman" as Jerry Reinsdorf Claims to be .....

ChiSox7
02-08-2004, 09:24 PM
If Thomas for Weaver was ludicrous to KW, as reported, then Perez for THomas would be even worse, so there would definately be somebody else. Jackson or Miller and Perez for Thomas would be mighty intriguing, but I still don't know if thats enough. But I think it's safe to say Perez for THomas straight up wouldnt work.

Hangar18
02-08-2004, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I agree, but when a Thomas rumor surfaced earlier in the offseason, KW said don't make an offer for Frank (and Maggs) that insults what they've done in their careers and what they mean to our team.

This much is true, but this is the same GM who Billy Beane probably couldve traded Jeremy Giambi to the SOX and KW wouldve thought he was getting Jason. ALso, KW is the same guy who traded a lot of Minor League Talent for a .500 Pitcher Todd Ritchie, when maybe ONE of our pitchers wouldve sufficed.
Not only was Todd Ritchie a .500 Pitcher, but a .500 Pitcher in THE NL/NL CENTRAL. Brutal. thats Like paying 60,000 bucks
for a Yugo. Oh ...wait...this Yugo has Turbo in it.

MRKARNO
02-08-2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
[B]ToDoes one see the YANKEES getting rid of players approaching their Prime? No.

So Andy Pettite is done?

Deadguy
02-08-2004, 09:30 PM
I'm not surprised by this at all. It took way too long for this ownership to get finalized, which meant that the Dodgers had very little opportunity to make a run at the current crop of free agents. They know they have a tremendous need for offense, and their only way of doing it now is via a trade. Thomas is relatively cheap, and the biggest name available. His OPS last season was 140 points higher than anyone on the Dodgers, so he is a viable option to play 1st base for the Dodgers for the remainder of this current contract.

Obtaining Thomas is about the biggest splash the new ownership can make from now until the start of spring training. Thomas has mentioned a desire to play 1B 140 times next season, and with Konerko here, that's not going to happen on the White Sox. Thomas has moved out towards the west, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he waived his 10/5 rights, especially if he gets a 2 million dollar bonus for doing so.

As a Thomas fan, I'd like it, since this would give him a chance to become a star again. As a White Sox fan, I think this would be a terrible move. We were 8th in the league in runs scored last year, and subtracting our best hitter is going to place us at below average, since there is noone in our farm system or on the market that can come close to putting up 40 homers while still drawing 100 walks. In addition, we're subtracting him without saving much in the terms of money.

beckett21
02-08-2004, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
If Thomas for Weaver was ludicrous to KW, as reported, then Perez for THomas would be even worse, so there would definately be somebody else. Jackson or Miller and Perez for Thomas would be mighty intriguing, but I still don't know if thats enough. But I think it's safe to say Perez for THomas straight up wouldnt work.

I'd have to say that trading Thomas would most likely be foolish and I probably would only support it if we got Jackson and Miller in any deal as well, assuming those guys are as good as advertised. Of course I can't imagine this would happen, more than likely we would get one of them at most. I am pretty much indifferent on Mota. As far as Weaver, I expect to take some flack for this but I would rather get him than Perez in all honesty. He really had a promising career going until he got to NY, then it all fell apart. But at least he knows the AL, and I believe he would be a better long term solution than Perez.

But I still say no unless we get Jackson AND Miller, which is probably impossible. Let's see just how much they want Thomas; because no way we have as much bargaining power with Konerko. Kenny's gotta play hardball, that much is for sure.

joecrede
02-08-2004, 09:39 PM
Thomas is 36, if you can get prospects the caliber of Miller and Jackson you have to seriously consider it.

A. Cavatica
02-08-2004, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
In addition, we're subtracting him without saving much in the terms of money.

Yeah, that's the reason the little voice in my head is saying "no, no, don't do it". I suppose the Dodgers might also have to throw in a little cash, or take one of our bad contracts back. But the idea of filling three spots -- say, two cheap starters in Perez & Jackson, plus Thurston at 2B -- for less than we'd be paying Hurt is why the other little voice keeps shouting him down.

beckett21
02-08-2004, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
So Andy Pettite is done?

Obviously not. But Hangar's point is well made. They went out and got Javier Vazquez and Kevin Brown to make up for the losses of Clemens and Pettite. They are always looking to improve, to reload. Pettite was replaced with someone who could do a similar if not better job. We let Colon walk and replace him with...?

A. Cavatica
02-08-2004, 09:44 PM
Wouldn't it be nice to not have Frank/Ozzie confrontations in the headlines this spring?

The solution here is to dump the idiot manager, not the superstar, but since Ozzie's not going anywhere we might as well spare ourselves.

ChiSox7
02-08-2004, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Wouldn't it be nice to not have Frank/Ozzie confrontations in the headlines this spring?

The solution here is to dump the idiot manager, not the superstar, but since Ozzie's not going anywhere we might as well spare ourselves.

I'd rather put up with those headlines than trade away a 950 + OPS man. I don't think it will be all that bad, but everybody will have to deal. Unless we get Jackson or Miller and someone else plus Perez, Frank shouldn't be going anywhere. I'd deal with the bad press. Frank fought with the manager in 2000 as well.

But as to your question, yes, it would be sweet not to have to hear about frank/ozz confrontations in the spring.

beckett21
02-08-2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Thomas is 36, if you can get prospects the caliber of Miller and Jackson you have to seriously consider it.

These are the types of moves that can make or break a franchise for a decade. The Barry Bonds connundrum muddies the waters a bit, because he is so productive at his age. But he is a freak, you almost have to throw him out of the equation because what he is doing is so rare. However Thomas looked better last year than he has for a couple seasons now IMO, and he could have 3 or 4 more good years left, MVP-caliber years. Then again, maybe not. If we move Konerko, Frank gets his wish to play 1B, if indeed that is what he wants. Problem is Konerko has zero trade value, so we take a bath on him just to get him off the books. Thomas is the guy we can move for some value, but we have to be SURE we are getting value. It is a gamble no doubt, but I agree with you joecrede. I don't see us getting squat for Konerko other than freeing up money for other guys (and all the good FA are gone except Maddux, and he's not coming to the AL)) or to line JR's pockets. And I think that is what I am most afraid of--lining JR's pockets and not re-investing in the team.

duke of dorwood
02-08-2004, 09:55 PM
Take 40 HR out of a pretty weak line up-makes sense to me. I would have kept the tinkerer if I knew it would cost us Frank

DrCrawdad
02-08-2004, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Wouldn't it be nice to not have Frank/Ozzie confrontations in the headlines this spring?

The solution here is to dump the idiot manager, not the superstar, but since Ozzie's not going anywhere we might as well spare ourselves.

So quit being evasive, what do you really think of Ozzie?

:)

I'd much rather the Sox trade Konerko. Frank is a future HOF. Frank had a very good 2003. Frank is a (relatively speaking) bargain salary-wise. IF it's true that Frank is being considered for a trade to LA then the Sox better damn well get an over-whelming amount back from LA.

Lip Man 1
02-08-2004, 10:03 PM
There have been reports over the past two years that Williams is not a fan of Thomas and has been trying to make things difficult for him. How true these are, I have no idea so it wouldn't surprise me if Williams does try to move him.

However remember because he's a 10/5 man, Frank has to approve any deals. And this also is a valid point, that trading 40 home runs without having any options at this late date to replace them could make a tough situation on this club even more difficult. (Unless you are those who say Raul Mondisi could be the solution)

Lip

A. Cavatica
02-08-2004, 10:04 PM
Everyone has his price...what would YOU take for Frank?

gosox41
02-08-2004, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox7
I'd rather put up with those headlines than trade away a 950 + OPS man. I don't think it will be all that bad, but everybody will have to deal. Unless we get Jackson or Miller and someone else plus Perez, Frank shouldn't be going anywhere. I'd deal with the bad press. Frank fought with the manager in 2000 as well.

But as to your question, yes, it would be sweet not to have to hear about frank/ozz confrontations in the spring.

First let me say that I am 100% against trading Frank.

If the Sox are going to trade him, then they better get Perez and 3 top prospects. Frank is guaranteed only $18 mill over the next 3 years, a bargain for a guy with a .950+ OPS.

KW will mess this up.

Bob

beckett21
02-08-2004, 10:12 PM
I would think that if LA is pushing for Thomas, they must be pretty confident he would approve the deal. Honestly I think he would approve it. Just my opinion.

As for Mondesi, I am a Mondesi supporter but not to replace Frank. He could not possibly fill the void left by Thomas, and I agree that that would be a burden too large for our offense to bear. Konerko might rebound to an extent, but not enough to offset that loss. Besides, Paulie could just as likely, or by most accounts here more likely, fall flat on his face again.

ondafarm
02-08-2004, 10:31 PM
I believe that Frank would veto any trade which sends him to the Dodgers. His option for next year is $8 mill or $10 mill if traded. Since I'm one of the few people here whos actually seen him take batting practice in Chavez Ravine I can tell you he doesn't like the place. Sight lines not really good for him and the ball doesn't carry well. Frank is trying to close out his career with 500 homers and Death Valley is the last place he'd go. Trade him to Toronto and he'd go.

A. Cavatica
02-08-2004, 10:35 PM
I think he'd accept, because his bonus would kick in, and because he'd love LA. I also think he'd prefer not to play for Ozzie; bunting has never been his game.

beckett21
02-08-2004, 10:40 PM
I too still think he would go, but I see ondafarm's point. Look what it did to Shawn Green. :o:

chisoxmike
02-08-2004, 11:08 PM
I can't even believe that Thomas could be on the trading block. Thomas, like Maggs is a homegrown HERO!

If Thomas is traded... all hopes will be gone for this and any season for a long time.

KEEP THOMAS, KEEP MAGGS, KEEP LEE, PAY THESE GUYS WHAT THEY ARE WORTH!

SEALgep
02-08-2004, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by chisoxmike
[B

If Thomas is traded... all hopes will be gone for this and any season for a long time.

[/B]

I don't want to trade Thomas, but that's a little extreme.

mantis1212
02-08-2004, 11:34 PM
I can't even imagine watching a Sox game without seeing Big Hurt step into the batter's box, let alone see him in another uniform...
Odalis Perez and a couple minor leaguers??? KW if you are reading this keep your hands off the best player in the history of this franchise!!

Win1ForMe
02-08-2004, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by mantis1212
I can't even imagine watching a Sox game without seeing Big Hurt step into the batter's box

That 2001 season must have been very though on you (not to mention the NL games when Frank only got to play against the "soft-tossers). :D:

If the Sox can get three guys from the Perez/Mota/Miller/Jackson quartet, then I would say do the deal. And the Travis Lee era can commence.

mantis1212
02-08-2004, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
That 2001 season must have been very though on you (not to mention the NL games when Frank only got to play against the "soft-tossers). :D:

If the Sox can get three guys from the Perez/Mota/Miller/Jackson quartet, then I would say do the deal. And the Travis Lee era can commence.

As a matter of fact, yes it definitely was! Although I always thought it was cool during the NL games when Frank would pinch hit late in the game, one helluva presence off the bench I must say

SEALgep
02-08-2004, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Win1ForMe
That 2001 season must have been very though on you (not to mention the NL games when Frank only got to play against the "soft-tossers). :D:

If the Sox can get three guys from the Perez/Mota/Miller/Jackson quartet, then I would say do the deal. And the Travis Lee era can commence.

That's interesting. Lee and Konerko platooning together while the other DH's. Lee is a better first baseman defensively. Maybe focusing more on hitting could help out Konerko rebound. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I could probably find this acceptable.

ND_Sox_Fan
02-08-2004, 11:49 PM
I was only planning to attend a couple games this year - I attended about 20 last year. If we pull any trade that sends Thomas to LA, I won't be attending any this year.

Tragg
02-08-2004, 11:54 PM
Don't trade Frank-he's still the best hitter on the team and pretty much the only one who knows what a walk is.

Maggs, okay, for a nice bunch of players as we lose him anyway and need payroll flexibility.

Konerko for Perez is dubious itself. But Frank for Perez? No way

SEALgep
02-09-2004, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
Don't trade Frank-he's still the best hitter on the team and pretty much the only one who knows what a walk is.

Maggs, okay, for a nice bunch of players as we lose him anyway and need payroll flexibility.

Konerko for Perez is dubious itself. But Frank for Perez? No way

There is no way Frank is going to be traded for Perez straight up. I don't care who told you it was a possibility, they are wrong.

SEALgep
02-09-2004, 12:27 AM
I still kind of have a hard time believing that a deal is being worked out for any players when they really don't even have a GM. They are in a process of switching. Granted time is running out for them to get something done before ST, but unless McCourt is talking to KW, I don't see how a negotiation is taking place. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would think they would want their GM in place before they start shuffling players. Whoever they decide to go with I'm sure is well aware the Frank isnt going anywhere for Perez.

kempsted
02-09-2004, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica


I'm a little surprised that McCourt wants Frank, because of his defense. But he still hits as well as Maggs, he's cheaper (next year) than either Maggs or Konerko, and he's probably the biggest draw of any of them. I hope KW can talk the Dodgers into taking Konerko instead, or at least Lee, but I'd be open to trading any of our righthanded bats if we got enough in return.


McCourt has actively persued Billy Beane which to me says he has read Moneyball and buys into it. If you do then you know defense is overpriced and OBP is king. By that reasoning Thomas was the best offensive player on the White Sox last year by a lot. So Thomas now at 36 is better than Maggs in his prime.

It is also interesting to note Frank is in the 10 ten career OBP of ALL TIME. So of course he wants Frank.

If you take this a step further even when Paulie was supposedly good - he wasn't nearly as good by the Beane count.

I just hope and pray there is no real truth to the fact the KW would be willing to trade Frank.

jeremyb1
02-09-2004, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by kempsted
McCourt has actively persued Billy Beane which to me says he has read Moneyball and buys into it. If you do then you know defense is overpriced and OBP is king. By that reasoning Thomas was the best offensive player on the White Sox last year by a lot. So Thomas now at 36 is better than Maggs in his prime.

It is also interesting to note Frank is in the 10 ten career OBP of ALL TIME. So of course he wants Frank.

If you take this a step further even when Paulie was supposedly good - he wasn't nearly as good by the Beane count.

I just hope and pray there is no real truth to the fact the KW would be willing to trade Frank.

Most of the best statistical measurements I've seen including OPS, Bill James' win shares, and Baseball Prospectus' VORP say Maggs and Frank were about equal last season. If you're just going by OBP, Frank's OBP was .390 compared to .380 for Maggs so there's no huge gap there.

lowesox
02-09-2004, 01:59 AM
Let me say that I'd be against most scenarios of us trading Thomas, but, I see a big problem with the current White Sox - they're getting older, and they're not getting better. So for the right players I'd make a deal.

Mota and one of the super prospects would have to be involved. Haven't seen him play much but I think Dave ROberts could be a good fit for chicago - and CF who can burn. STeals. That would be nice.

Anyway - long story short - Thomas is a fan favourite so the dodgers better be ready to ante up.

serena
02-09-2004, 02:09 AM
FYI - 2003 Win Shares (http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/alwinteam.html#cws) (by team)



Player Team Pos Hit Field Pitch Sum WS

F Thomas CWS DH 22.42 0.40 0.00 22.82 23
M Ordonez CWS OF 19.63 3.18 0.00 22.80 23

HITMEN OF 77
02-09-2004, 03:11 AM
Really though, who wouldn't want Frank on there team. He's an offensive monster and plays decent 1b. I wouldn't want to get rid of him, not when he can retire here in a Sox uni and hold just about every team record while doing so. Besides, if Garland wins 15 were in the playoffs.

Man Soo Lee
02-09-2004, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Frank is guaranteed only $18 mill over the next 3 years, a bargain for a guy with a .950+ OPS.

Frank will make $6M this year and has player options for $8M in '05 and $10M in '06. The Sox can buy him out in '06 for $3.5M, so it's either $17.5 million for two years or $24 million for three.

Odalis Perez is a free agent after this season.

SSN721
02-09-2004, 07:45 AM
Only way I could see this as a possibility at all would be if it was for Jackson, Miller and Perez. And because I am so biased and unreasonable I would also demand Mota and cash. But I doubt the dodgers would even consider the first trio. I think it is bad news to do this no matter how you look at it. No way we replace his bat and I would never want to see Thomas in another uniform.

gosox41
02-09-2004, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Most of the best statistical measurements I've seen including OPS, Bill James' win shares, and Baseball Prospectus' VORP say Maggs and Frank were about equal last season. If you're just going by OBP, Frank's OBP was .390 compared to .380 for Maggs so there's no huge gap there.

So does that mean Maggs with worth $8 mill more per year just because he plays OF. Frank wants to play 1B. He said so. If he accepts this trade it just proves it as he can reject any trade he wants.

Between Frank, Paulie, and Magglio Frank has the most value because he still puts up awesome numbers at a bargain rate.

The way I see each player's worth to the Dodgers:

PK-trade him for a bag of balls, and if the Dodgers want to move salary then Perez.

Magglio-Perez, top pitching prospect, top 1B prospect, and Mota

Frank-Perez, 2 top pitching prospects, top 1B prospect and one of their releivers that's worse then Gagne and Mota.

Of course I'm overvaluing Frank. His salary makes him that much more attractive then Magglio. 3 years and 18 mill for a guy wtih a .950 OPS. It's a bargain.

Bob

JDP
02-09-2004, 10:06 AM
In all reports and sentiments expressed/heard thus from the LA fan base, it appears that it is going to be a chore to get one of Jackson/Miller let alone two. If Thomas were to be moved, it'd have to be at least one, if not both of those SP prospects. I'll create a new post to exemplify just how solid of prospects these two are that we are talking about.

SEALgep
02-09-2004, 10:21 AM
I agree at least one has to be traded in order for this deal to work. The LA fans can not want to trade either one as much as they want, but we don't want to trade Frank. We wouldn't be saving money really because of the bargain Thomas represents, and the fact he's locked in for three years, something the Dodgers have said they want in any star traded for. The fact is, we could go into this season as is and be competitive. The Dodgers can't say te same thing. This deal is more for of the Dodger's desperately needing a right handed bat (1b ideal so Green can remain in right) than it is for us needing pitching. We could definitely use it, but not at the expense at getting ripped off. I think these Frank for Perez straight up talks are overblown by the media, because KW hasn't publicly acknowledged the discussion. It's all hearsay. KW made it clear before that he wouldn't listen to any offer that insults what Frank has done over his career and what his ability to continue down the path of a HOF. Doesn't sound like Perez would cut it. I don't believe they would part with both prospects, but certainly one would have to be part of the deal, or no deal-most likely Miller.

Maximo
02-09-2004, 10:33 AM
I realize we need another starting pitcher, especially to make us more competitive in a short series, ( i.e. playoff series), but Frank represents 35-40 homeruns and 100 rbis.

That's way too much offense for the rest of this lineup to make up.

If this goes down, or any other deal involving Thomas for that matter, there better be a "can't miss" prospect and another solid one included in the deal.

JDP
02-09-2004, 10:35 AM
I'm favor of sending Carlos Lee/Paul Konerko to LA for Odalis Perez/Edwin Jackson/Guillermo Mota/Joe Thurston. (provided LA would do that).

Not only would that free up $10.0 this year (taking into account Perez' arbitration), but $17.5 next year as well. That money this year can get us cheaper, better D at 1B in a Travis Lee, have a 2B-battle occur, and, most importantly, free up a lot of money to resign Maggs to a 5/$65 -- all the while in keep the Sox future HOL Frank Thomas.

Which rotation do you like better?
Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland, Schoeneweis, #5
or
Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland, Perez, Jackson

The offense would be missing a solid key in Lee and Paul "sundial speed" Konerko [who would be replaced conceivably by Lee; better D, same stats, 1/3 the price]. The only question then would be: rent-a-player for LF until '05 until Reed is ready, or simply put Reed out there in '04.

SEALgep
02-09-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by JDP
I'm favor of sending Carlos Lee/Paul Konerko to LA for Odalis Perez/Edwin Jackson/Guillermo Mota/Joe Thurston. (provided LA would do that).

Not only would that free up $10.0 this year (taking into account Perez' arbitration), but $17.5 next year as well. That money this year can get us cheaper, better D at 1B in a Travis Lee, have a 2B-battle occur, and, most importantly, free up a lot of money to resign Maggs to a 5/$65 -- all the while in keep the Sox future HOL Frank Thomas.

Which rotation do you like better?
Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland, Schoeneweis, #5
or
Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland, Perez, Jackson

The offense would be missing a solid key in Lee and Paul "sundial speed" Konerko [who would be replaced conceivably by Lee; better D, same stats, 1/3 the price]. The only question then would be: rent-a-player for LF until '05 until Reed is ready, or simply put Reed out there in '04.

There would be no problem from our end, they wouldn't do that deal though. They don't want to part with any of their prospects, especially the pitchers. Whether it is or isn't, they would feel that is way too much.

Actually, I still don't think they would do it, but I thought you had Miller in the mix as well. That's a realistic deal, and one I would like to do, because it also frees up money to lock up Maggs.

JDP
02-09-2004, 10:44 AM
Either way, they're going to part w/ a prospect -- or not have anything done at all. Be it the horrible idea of trading Thomas, or the scenario that I prosposed.

Hangar18
02-09-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
There have been reports over the past two years that Williams is not a fan of Thomas and has been trying to make things difficult for him. How true these are, I have no idea so it wouldn't surprise me if Williams does try to move him.

Lip

In ANY BUSINESS, whether Food Service, Steelmaking, or
Baseball, any Upper Level Mgmt person that makes a move
PURELY on personal issues, is A FOOL. you dont have to
like the guy, but if hes worth something to you.....
You dont Get Rid of the Guy, or make things Hard On Him.
That my friends, if true, is the Sign of A BAD GM

ma-gaga
02-09-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
In ANY BUSINESS, whether Food Service, Steelmaking, or
Baseball, any Upper Level Mgmt person that makes a move
PURELY on personal issues, is A FOOL. you dont have to
like the guy, but if hes worth something to you.....
You dont Get Rid of the Guy, or make things Hard On Him.
That my friends, if true, is the Sign of A BAD GM

I don't know whose posts are more enjoyable, Lips' or Hangers'.

Trading Thomas is a mistake and would END this team's competetive cycle. Maggs/Lee/Frank are the big 3 offensive players and are responsible for HALF of the teams offense, IMO.

It would be a mistake to trade one of those guys.

Clarkdog
02-09-2004, 11:25 AM
Just for the sake of clarity - this is the source of the Newsradio 78 report I heard. It's from John Heyman's column in yesterday's NY Newsday.

Here is the blurb - it's a short note in a long column buried in a piece about Maddux. But I'll also provide a link

....but new owner Frank McCourt has told lame- duck general manager Dan Evans that Evans can't do a thing ......

The more likely move for L.A. is to trade lefthander Odalis Perez for needed slugger Frank Thomas, especially after Robin Ventura told his bosses that Thomas is the best hitter he's ever had as a teammate. McCourt likes the Thomas idea but is waiting for his new GM's approval before pulling the trigger there, too.

Giants in Weeds on Maddux - Jon Heyman, Newsday 2/8/04 (http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/ny-sphey083662105feb08,0,6447924.column?coll=ny-sports-columnists)

beckett21
02-09-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
I don't know whose posts are more enjoyable, Lips' or Hangers'.

Trading Thomas is a mistake and would END this team's competetive cycle. Maggs/Lee/Frank are the big 3 offensive players and are responsible for HALF of the teams offense, IMO.

It would be a mistake to trade one of those guys.

In the short term I tend to agree. However, the reality is more than likely (unless you believe what he says, which I personally don't) Maggs is gone after this year. If we give him what he wants our payroll will be hamstrung for years to come. So if we truly can get something for Maggs, he would be the guy to move and keep Thomas. Sure I would love to trade konerko, but the reality is his market value is nil. Thomas would probably fetch the most in trade unless we do a sign & trade deal with Maggs. I don't see why Maggs would pass up a chance at what he sees as such a golden payday. I think his agent is misinforming him about the market, but hey that's his choice.

If we were to get Jackson or Miller, that guy could potentially be our ace and anchor our staff for the next 10-15 years. You can't put a pricetag on a bonafide ace. Still taking a chance, but if these guys are as good as they appear to be, it may be worth rolling the dice.

I agree losing Thomas or Maggs would leave a gaping hole in our offense this year. But he is 36 years old, and in 2 or 3 years he will need to be replaced anyway. Gotta get while the getting is good IMO. But we HAVE to insist on one of those prospects.

and I am equally entertained by Lip and Hangar. :D:

MikeKreevich
02-09-2004, 12:15 PM
Jon Heyman of Newsday was interviewed on "The Murph and Fred Show" on WSCR radio this morning. He commented on his story. http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-sphey083662105feb08,0,1309575.column
He believes that both the Dodgers and the White Sox want to see a Frank Thomas for Odalis Perez trade take place. Heyman thinks it could transpire once the Dodger"s G.M. situation is settled.

beckett21
02-09-2004, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by MikeKreevich
Jon Heyman of Newsday was interviewed on "The Murph and Fred Show" on WSCR radio this morning. He commented on his story. http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-sphey083662105feb08,0,1309575.column
He believes that both the Dodgers and the White Sox want to see a Frank Thomas for Odalis Perez trade take place. Heyman thinks it could transpire once the Dodger"s G.M. situation is settled.

All depends on who else is involved. Unfortunately I am of the belief that KW's personal vendetta against Frank will help facilitate this deal. I just hope we don't settle for less than he is worth--

ChiSox65
02-09-2004, 12:22 PM
Why trade Thomas, he is the biggest bargain in baseball $5 Mil. a year for a guy who gives you .280/40/110, But would I be suprised.............No.
:gulp:

mantis1212
02-09-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
All depends on who else is involved. Unfortunately I am of the belief that KW's personal vendetta against Frank will help facilitate this deal. I just hope we don't settle for less than he is worth--

I agree, I'm not trusting KW's judgement on this in the least...

beckett21
02-09-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox65
Why trade Thomas, he is the biggest bargain in baseball $5 Mil. a year for a guy who gives you .280/40/110, But would I be suprised.............No.
:gulp:

To play devil's advocate...the only reason I can see is that Thomas would fetch the most in trade. Nobody wants Konerko, we are saddled with him unless we wait for him to get off to a hot start (HA) to increase his trade value and then ship him out. Maggs is in his walk year so no one is going to pay the farm for a one year player.

Thomas is who he is and is synonymous with this franchise. It would be a crying shame to trade him, but we can't GIVE Konerko away. It is the fact that he is such a bargain that he is marketable. We just have to hope we get something in return that can carry us for many years to come...and that something is NOT Odalis Perez.

StepsInSC
02-09-2004, 12:35 PM
Even if we do get equal value for Frank in the likes of Perez and prospects, is it worth it from the PR stance. The casual fan won't know anything about what we get in return for Hurt, and will see it as a betrayal. I'm trying not to let my blind love for Frank Thomas block my vision for whats best for this team, but I don't see us getting anything worthy in return for him. Plus, its those casual fans which the Sox are really lacking in, and we don't need to scare them off.

beckett21
02-09-2004, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Even if we do get equal value for Frank in the likes of Perez and prospects, is it worth it from the PR stance. The casual fan won't know anything about what we get in return for Hurt, and will see it as a betrayal. I'm trying not to let my blind love for Frank Thomas block my vision for whats best for this team, but I don't see us getting anything worthy in return for him. Plus, its those casual fans which the Sox are really lacking in, and we don't need to scare them off.

To make or not make a move solely based on the opinion of the fans is wrong. No doubt if they trade Thomas they will alienate a large portion of the fan base, many posters here have already said that if they trade Thomas they will no longer cheer for the Sox. Remember the M's traded Griffey and let ARod go...and granted they still haven't gotten over the hump but those moves didn't work out too badly for them. The key is to make the RIGHT move, not a stupid one. And therein lies the problem with this current management team. I don't want them to trade Thomas, but in 3 years when Thomas is fading out and a memory, and Jackson is vying for a Cy Young....I think I would forgive.

They haven't listened to the fans yet..why start now? :?:

SEALgep
02-09-2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
To make or not make a move solely based on the opinion of the fans is wrong. No doubt if they trade Thomas they will alienate a large portion of the fan base, many posters here have already said that if they trade Thomas they will no longer cheer for the Sox. Remember the M's traded Griffey and let ARod go...and granted they still haven't gotten over the hump but those moves didn't work out too badly for them. The key is to make the RIGHT move, not a stupid one. And therein lies the problem with this current management team. I don't want them to trade Thomas, but in 3 years when Thomas is fading out and a memory, and Jackson is vying for a Cy Young....I think I would forgive.

They haven't listened to the fans yet..why start now? :?:

The casual fan doesn't know much about the team or baseball in general. If Thomas was traded, and pitchers gained helped us win more games, there wouldn't be much complaining. I like Thomas, and I'm a big fan of his. He has been my second favorite player for some time. However, I am an even bigger fan of the White Sox. If we received one of these guys and he panned out like it is being predicted, and received Perez (and he reaches the potential he can. I compare him to a Zambrano, when going good he is dominant, and when not his frustration takes over) that may help the Sox solidify our pitching enough to have a distinct advantage in the Central. We'll see, but Perez staright up for Frank is so utterly ridiculous, I can't even imagine the Sox continuing discussions if this scenerio is pushed by the Dodgers.

Maximo
02-09-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
To make or not make a move solely based on the opinion of the fans is wrong. No doubt if they trade Thomas they will alienate a large portion of the fan base, many posters here have already said that if they trade Thomas they will no longer cheer for the Sox. Remember the M's traded Griffey and let ARod go...and granted they still haven't gotten over the hump but those moves didn't work out too badly for them. The key is to make the RIGHT move, not a stupid one. And therein lies the problem with this current management team. I don't want them to trade Thomas, but in 3 years when Thomas is fading out and a memory, and Jackson is vying for a Cy Young....I think I would forgive.

They haven't listened to the fans yet..why start now? :?:

All I can say is, if they trade Frank, the guy(s) they get in return better be something special. I would hope that years down the road these guys would be remembered for their contributions to the Sox, rather than "the player(s) who were brought here in the Frank Thomas trade".

jabrch
02-09-2004, 05:25 PM
I wish we didn't have to trade anyone. That's not reality.

I wish Konerko or Koch were tradeable. That's not reality.

Either Magglio, Carlos or Frank has to go.

Maggs has the most talent - and would the best to have here for 5 years to come. He is still very young and a franchise type player. Problem is, he has one year left and has really left us not sure if he will consider staying here at a reasonable price or if he really expects 5/17 or something silly like that. For him, I'd want Perez+ Jackson/Miller + Mota

Frank is the best player - and the cheapest of that bunch. His contract guarantees kick in if he gets traded, so he ends up costing a bit more than 3/18. Again, to trade him, I would insist on at least Miller/Jackson be in the deal, and possibly Loney as well.

Lee is the wildcard. I'd hate to lose him. I think Lee is the one who started to turn the corner last season and is starting to look up. I'd rather not trade him. Also - to trade him I'd want one of the two young arms in the deal.

Bottom line - no Miller/Jackson - no trade - unless they go back to wanting Konerko.

dickallen15
02-09-2004, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
To add to my Last Post.....Does one see the YANKEES getting rid of players approaching their Prime? No. DOes one see the Yankees Letting Key Free Agents go simply because their "too expensive" ? No. Do the Yankees ever let their team get "worse" in the offseason? No. DO the Yankees ever sit
on their Hands in the offseason? No. Do the Yankees blame their fans for their PR Gaffes? No. Why dont we try to emulate the Yankees? would be a good start I would think
If I was a "businessman" as Jerry Reinsdorf Claims to be .....

Jay Buhner, Eric Milton, Christian Guzman, Andy Pettite. There are a lot of Yankee farm products who have had pretty good careers that the Yankees traded for a fading star. Pettite they could have had, but made no offer until it was too late. They backed off on Colon and Guerrero this offseason, mainly because of health concerns and price. I think their team has gotten worse each of the last 3 seasons, and I think it will be worse this season. They have a bunch of groundball pitchers and a defensive infield that may be one of the worst ever assembled. Tyler Houston at third, Jeter is overrated defensively, although I would still take him. Soriano is a butcher as is Giambi. There are going to be a lot of grounders that wind up in the outfield at Yankee Stadium this year.

SEALgep
02-09-2004, 07:10 PM
[i]
Bottom line - no Miller/Jackson - no trade - unless they go back to wanting Konerko. [/B]

Exactly

Lip Man 1
02-09-2004, 08:52 PM
Dick says: "I think their team has gotten worse each of the last 3 seasons, and I think it will be worse this season.

Yea they'll only win 95 games this season and make the playoffs again. I wish the Sox could get "worse' like that!

Lip

dickallen15
02-09-2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Dick says: "I think their team has gotten worse each of the last 3 seasons, and I think it will be worse this season.

Yea they'll only win 95 games this season and make the playoffs again. I wish the Sox could get "worse' like that!

Lip

Lip, you have stated on many occassions that getting to the playoffs isn't good enough. That's what the Yankees have done after winning the World Series. Hangar asked if the Yankees let their team get worse. In my opinion, they have, and it looks like they may be worse this season. Their outfield defense isn't exactly stellar either. They also have some age.

Chisoxfn
02-09-2004, 09:12 PM
IF the Sox could get Odalis and Jackson or Miller for Frank Thomas, I'd do it in a heartbeat and walk to the bank laughing. The Sox rotation would be complete and they could sign Travis Lee or acquire a left handed bat in the middle of the order.

Thomas is a prolific hitter, but Perez will rebound and is very young while Jackson/Miller are studs, front line studs.

Daver
02-09-2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn


Thomas is a prolific hitter, but Perez will rebound and is very young while Jackson/Miller are studs, front line studs.


Scott Ruffcorn,AaronMyette, and Matt Guerrier were all front line studs too.

A. Cavatica
02-09-2004, 09:26 PM
Yeah, Thomas just isn't worth Perez plus *both* Miller and Jackson. Thomas will play another 3 or 4 years. Miller and Jackson could both still be pitching 10, 15 years from now.

A. Cavatica
02-09-2004, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Scott Ruffcorn,AaronMyette, and Matt Guerrier were all front line studs too.

None of them were ever rated highly as Miller and Jackson are currently. I doubt they ever cracked Baseball America's top 50.

Daver
02-09-2004, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
None of them were ever rated highly as Miller and Jackson are currently. I doubt they ever cracked Baseball America's top 50.

Neither did Mark Buerhle.

dickallen15
02-09-2004, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
None of them were ever rated highly as Miller and Jackson are currently. I doubt they ever cracked Baseball America's top 50.

I think Ruffcorn was rated high. Myette at one point was and the White Sox developmental team would have you believe that Guerrier was Greg Maddux Jr. Rauch was rated high, and Rod Bolton was going to be around awhile. Ron Schueler is the man I blame for this. He had everyone believing the White Sox were producing numerous front line pitchers. He never talked about Buerhle, and he has been the most successful.

A. Cavatica
02-09-2004, 09:49 PM
Thomas to LA for pitching makes more sense if the wacky Griffey deal also happens. See my post at http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=313449#post313449

Rex Hudler
02-09-2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Scott Ruffcorn,AaronMyette, and Matt Guerrier were all front line studs too.

Ruffcorn was before my time. Myette and Guerrier were never front line studs. What are you smoking these days Daver?

doublem23
02-09-2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Scott Ruffcorn,AaronMyette, and Matt Guerrier were all front line studs too.

Guerrier maybe... I heard a few off-comments about him being compared to Maddux, but we can't complain about him seeing as that was actually a nice, nice deal for KW. I don't remember how much Myette was supposed to be a front-liner. Rauch, I think would be a better example, but I think injuries had more to do with his downfal rather than just being a bust in the purest sense of the word.

Daver
02-09-2004, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Ruffcorn was before my time. Myette and Guerrier were never front line studs. What are you smoking these days Daver?

The same thing that Ron Schueler was smoking when he drafted Mark Johnson,Aarron Rowand,and Jeff Leifer as first round picks.

joecrede
02-09-2004, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The same thing that Ron Schueler was smoking when he drafted Mark Johnson,Aarron Rowand,and Jeff Leifer as first round picks.

A clarification, Rowand was a second rounder.

Rex Hudler
02-09-2004, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The same thing that Ron Schueler was smoking when he drafted Mark Johnson,Aarron Rowand,and Jeff Leifer as first round picks.

Must be some pretty stale stuff......

Guerrier was never any more than a "surprise" and a potential prospect. He was never highly touted. Don't write Guerrier off, however. He is now on the Twins 40-man roster and healthy for the first time in 2 years.

Myette was closer to that level, but always had questions about him, including his temperament. Ruffcorn may be another story. I know of him, but never saw him pitch, so can't say for sure.

Rowand was 35th overall in the 1998 draft, so I guess technically that makes him a sandwich pick between the 1st and 2nd rounds.

Daver
02-09-2004, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Must be some pretty stale stuff......

Guerrier was never any more than a "surprise" and a potential prospect. He was never highly touted. Don't write Guerrier off, however. He is now on the Twins 40-man roster and healthy for the first time in 2 years.

Myette was closer to that level, but always had questions about him, including his temperament. Ruffcorn may be another story. I know of him, but never saw him pitch, so can't say for sure.

Rowand was 35th overall in the 1998 draft, so I guess technically that makes him a sandwich pick between the 1st and 2nd rounds.


Yeah.

I know nothing about baseball.

ondafarm
02-09-2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Most of the best statistical measurements I've seen including OPS, Bill James' win shares, and Baseball Prospectus' VORP say Maggs and Frank were about equal last season. If you're just going by OBP, Frank's OBP was .390 compared to .380 for Maggs so there's no huge gap there.

The Sagarin ratings place Frank solidly ahead of Maggs, year in, year out, including last year. Maggs just grounds into too many DPs.

fuzzy_patters
02-09-2004, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Ruffcorn was before my time. Myette and Guerrier were never front line studs. What are you smoking these days Daver?

Scott Ruffcorn was supposed to be the greatest White Sox pitcher of all time. He was said to have better stuff than Alex Fernandez with control and four out pitches. Instead, he got tagged by AL hitters in parts of two seasons because his fastball was straighter than Alan Embree's and he had no control over his curve. However, he did throw really hard, and his balls got hit really far.

Tragg
02-10-2004, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by Chisoxfn
IF the Sox could get Odalis and Jackson or Miller for Frank Thomas, I'd do it in a heartbeat and walk to the bank laughing. The Sox rotation would be complete and they could sign Travis Lee or acquire a left handed bat in the middle of the order.

Thomas is a prolific hitter, but Perez will rebound and is very young while Jackson/Miller are studs, front line studs.

ONe decent pitcher and a prospect for our best hitter whom we can afford?

Tragg
02-10-2004, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Ruffcorn was before my time. Myette and Guerrier were never front line studs. What are you smoking these days Daver?

Let me knew it this way- when talking about the Sox, all Gammons could ever say was Scott Ruffocrn and Johnny Ruffin (don't forget about him) were going to be great pitchers.

Rex Hudler
02-10-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Yeah.

I know nothing about baseball.

Can't stand to be wrong, huh? I guess 1 out of 3 isn't bad. Hell, it's good if you are a hitter.

poorme
02-10-2004, 10:59 AM
Ok. Myette was a 1st rounder who put together some pretty good stats in the minors. Dealing him for Royce Clayton was completely idiotic. I don't care if Myette turned out to suck. It was a bad gamble which hardly paid off.

PaulDrake
02-10-2004, 11:18 AM
Well it seems the roughest part of this board is not the Parking Lot or Politically Incorrect but discussions pertaining to prospects. Actually I think Daver made a good point, at least how I with my brain such as it is understands it. Dealing for prospects, especially pitching prospects is a dicey thing. For every Mark Prior there are at least 5 "can't miss" hurlers that just don't pan out. Everybody has their own opinions on "prospects". When I posted that I was never overly impressed with Jon Rauch you'd have thought I insulted someones mom. That being said, I think FT is determined to get out of Chicago ASAP. I don't think it's any accident he's not returning phone calls and that reports are he is vigorously working out in Nevada. To get in shape to play 1b for an NL team maybe?

Randar68
02-10-2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
A clarification, Rowand was a second rounder.

A second "clarification"... Aaron Rowand was a 1st round supplemental pick, 35th overall, signing for 575,000.

Guerrier was NEVER considered a front line starter. Rauch was for good reason, until being injured. And while Myette was highly rated, by the time they traded him for Clayton, it was apparent to ANYONE who followed the minor leagues or prospects, that he was a AAAA pitcher. He was clueless on the mound. I told many people at that time that it was Clayton for nothing, essentially, and that is and was true.

Randar68
02-10-2004, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
Well it seems the roughest part of this board is not the Parking Lot or Politically Incorrect but discussions pertaining to prospects. Actually I think Daver made a good point, at least how I with my brain such as it is understands it. Dealing for prospects, especially pitching prospects is a dicey thing. For every Mark Prior there are at least 5 "can't miss" hurlers that just don't pan out. Everybody has their own opinions on "prospects". When I posted that I was never overly impressed with Jon Rauch you'd have thought I insulted someones mom. That being said, I think FT is determined to get out of Chicago ASAP. I don't think it's any accident he's not returning phone calls and that reports are he is vigorously working out in Nevada. To get in shape to play 1b for an NL team maybe?

Dealing for 18, 19, and 20 year old pitching prospects is an absolute crap-shoot. I would be ULTRA hesitant in dealing for anyone without at least half a season of AA, although that only slightly reduces the risk. Another thing that must be factored into the equation is throwing motion and what your team perceives the injury risk to be.

Miller + Jackson? If someone offerred me those 2 guys for Thomas straight up? I'd be hard-pressed to say no. If someone offerred me those 2 guys someone who could help now (Mota or Perez) for Maggs or Thomas, I'd take it in a heart-beat. You can build a productive line-up for a lot less money than you can produce or acquire 2 top of the rotation starters...

Randar68
02-10-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by poorme
Ok. Myette was a 1st rounder who put together some pretty good stats in the minors. Dealing him for Royce Clayton was completely idiotic. I don't care if Myette turned out to suck. It was a bad gamble which hardly paid off.

He already sucked before they traded him. AAAA players are worth anyone with MLB experience.

kempsted
02-11-2004, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
I wish we didn't have to trade anyone. That's not reality.

Why?


I wish Konerko or Koch were tradeable. That's not reality.

Either Magglio, Carlos or Frank has to go

Again why? :?: .

Williams has said he is now in budget and doesn't have to trade anyone and doesn't plan to. He may be stupid enough to think Frank for Perez is a good deal but (1) it isn't and (2) he does NOT have to trade anyone. Did you miss the part where Jerry upped the budget to the 63 million they currently have?