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View Full Version : Need help dealing with White Sox pollyana


Irishlawyer
02-02-2004, 09:24 AM
One of my co-workers is the sole eternal optimist White Sox fan. (I didn't know we had any either). We argue constantly over the tenor of ownership and the direction of the franchise.

Today, we discussed the issue of Ordonez not wanting to talk contract as the reason for the Sox attempt to trade Maggs.

My co-worker insists that "this is all Maggs' fault, don't blame the team".
I counter that "no player in his right mind would want to play for a cheap, short sighted, no desire, non-winning franchise like the Sox."

Mr. Pollyana replies that the Sox are as much an attractive place to play as anywhere else (and moreso than the San Diegos and Detroits of the world) because they have come in second place consistently. He belives that because the Sox are in contention regularly, players want to play here.

My view is the Sox are in contention because the division sucks and the fact that they come in second in a suck division is further proof that the organization has no commitment whatsoever to winning.

Polly counters that the Sox tried to win last year. I explain that the Sox try to win on the cheap and with dumb luck. The players cannot be so stupid as to not see that dealing with the "chairman", his thug (KW) and the court Jester (The wacky Ozzaroo!) is a joke.

Can anyone add further insight into the faulty thoughts of a nice, but misdirected, Polly.

Iwritecode
02-02-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Irishlawyer
One of my co-workers is the sole eternal optimist White Sox fan. (I didn't know we had any either). We argue constantly over the tenor of ownership and the direction of the franchise.

Today, we discussed the issue of Ordonez not wanting to talk contract as the reason for the Sox attempt to trade Maggs.

My co-worker insists that "this is all Maggs' fault, don't blame the team".
I counter that "no player in his right mind would want to play for a cheap, short sighted, no desire, non-winning franchise like the Sox."

Mr. Pollyana replies that the Sox are as much an attractive place to play as anywhere else (and moreso than the San Diegos and Detroits of the world) because they have come in second place consistently. He belives that because the Sox are in contention regularly, players want to play here.

My view is the Sox are in contention because the division sucks and the fact that they come in second in a suck division is further proof that the organization has no commitment whatsoever to winning.

Polly counters that the Sox tried to win last year. I explain that the Sox try to win on the cheap and with dumb luck. The players cannot be so stupid as to not see that dealing with the "chairman", his thug (KW) and the court Jester (The wacky Ozzaroo!) is a joke.

Can anyone add further insight into the faulty thoughts of a nice, but misdirected, Polly.

Wow, there are some really good points made on both sides. I'm not sure I could definetly pick one side or the other. I mean on one hand, I have doubts that Maggs is going to find the money he's looking for via free agency. On the other, I've seen how the Sox have treated their star players in the past.

I'd say by adding Colon, Gordon, Alomar, Everett and picking Loaiza out of thin air, the team was definetly trying to win last year. Yet they didn't have to pay any of Alomar's or Everett's salaries and Loaiza was paid, IIRC, less than $500,000.

There are good points on both sides and I don't think one or the other is more "right".

KingXerxes
02-02-2004, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Irishlawyer
Polly counters that the Sox tried to win last year. I explain that the Sox try to win on the cheap and with dumb luck. The players cannot be so stupid as to not see that dealing with the "chairman", his thug (KW) and the court Jester (The wacky Ozzaroo!) is a joke.

You forgot the fourth estate (literally) in this comedy of errors. They also have a snake.

:hawk

"Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.............M ercy!"

Lip Man 1
02-02-2004, 10:32 AM
All you have to do is mention the names of all the Sox players in the past 20 years who have left the franchise under various circumstances and had harsh words for the organization. The comments may have come out immediately after the trade / departure or over a period of time in books, magazines etc.

Sammy Sosa, Robin Ventura, Ellis Burks, Paul Assenmacher, Kevin Tapani, Roberto Hernandez, Jack McDowell, Wilson Alvarez, Julio Franco, Ozzie Guillen, Bo Jackson, George Bell and even though he wasn't a player Harry Caray.

That's all the names I can come up with off the top of my head.

Were all these guys the best players....no
Were all these guys the best people...no

But the point is when you have so many divergent personalities all being criticle of the organization and in many cases one individual in particular, that says something.

Funny I don't hear the same number of Yankee, Brave, Brewer, Cub or Padres ripping the organization when they leave.

Lip

Lip

Paulwny
02-02-2004, 10:40 AM
Mention players such as Schilling and I believe Giles who have the sox as a "no trade to team" in their contracts. I wonder how many other players have this in their contracts.

fquaye149
02-02-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Mention players such as Schilling and I believe Giles who have the sox as a "no trade to team" in their contracts. I wonder how many other players have this in their contracts.


giles had virtually all midwest teams as no trade and schilling has a personal dispute with reinsdorf over the 94 strike. these are not that great of examples of why the southside is such a bad place to play

Paulwny
02-02-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by fquaye149
giles had virtually all midwest teams as no trade and schilling has a personal dispute with reinsdorf over the 94 strike. these are not that great of examples of why the southside is such a bad place to play

Agree, but how many other players feel the same as Schilling about JR's involvement in the strike.

Irish lawyer said his co-worker believed that players would rather play for the sox then for the San Diegos and Dets, well here's a guy who preferred to stay a Pirate then play for the sox.

Lip Man 1
02-02-2004, 11:22 AM
According to a story in Sports Illustrated a few years ago South Side native Cliff Floyd, who grew up a Sox fan with Harold Baines as his hero, has a no Sox trade clause in his contracts.

What does that say?

and add Mike Mussina to that list. When reports were circulating that the Sox might trade for him in July 2000 (laugh, laugh) he said that he wouldn't re sign with them for 2001 and would take his chances in free agency and I guess you can add Bartolo Colon to that list. He had a chance to sign a deal for the "most money ever offered to a White Sox pitcher, (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) and said NO so fast Kenny Williams' head spun.

Lip

Realist
02-02-2004, 11:33 AM
I don't really have a comment for this thread. I just wanted his name to appear in it.

Paulwny
02-02-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Realist
I don't really have a comment for this thread. I just wanted his name to appear in it.


Fisk, Luzinski ,etc were all yrs ago, when Jr's was dealing fairly with players. At that time the playing field for players was level. Over the last~ 7-10 yrs JR's reputation with players has put the sox at a disadvantage.

Randar68
02-02-2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Mention players such as Schilling and I believe Giles who have the sox as a "no trade to team" in their contracts. I wonder how many other players have this in their contracts.

IIRC Giles did not have that. Giles had a limited no-trade clause with 6 teams or so where he COULD be traded. IIRC it included all the west coast teams and the Yankees and maybe the Braves or Mets... Either winning teams or teams closer to where he grew up.

maurice
02-02-2004, 12:10 PM
I'm normally a Sox optimist, but my reason for pessimism this offseason is simply and unrebuttable: Sox management decided to bring back a significantly worse team than the one that failed to win the worst division in the AL last season.

If anybody thinks that some combination of Willie Harris and Ozzie Guillen will make up the substantial difference, they are deluding themselves. The only way the Sox win is if every other team in the division sucks worse or if a large percentage of the roster has a career year. While that's a distinct possibility, it's no reason for optimism.

Paulwny
02-02-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
IIRC Giles did not have that. Giles had a limited no-trade clause with 6 teams or so where he COULD be traded. IIRC it included all the west coast teams and the Yankees and maybe the Braves or Mets... Either winning teams or teams closer to where he grew up.

You're right, it was a few yrs ago when this came out. My grey cells aren't what they used to be.

MarqSox
02-02-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

Funny I don't hear the same number of Yankee, Brave, Brewer, Cub or Padres ripping the organization when they leave.

Then you aren't paying close attention to the other teams. There's not a team out there that hasn't been trash-talked by a former player at some point.

Plus, I could name just as many players who said they enjoyed playing for the Sox after they left. Does that prove the Sox are a great organization? Of course not, but neither does a few pissed off people talking trash prove it's a bad organization.

Lip Man 1
02-02-2004, 06:08 PM
Marq:

Just curious...please list those players who said they were happy to play for the Sox when they were traded / retired / released.

I'll give you a head start Harold Baines.

Lip

joecrede
02-02-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Funny I don't hear the same number of Yankee, Brave, Brewer, Cub or Padres ripping the organization when they leave.

Lip

You're joking here right, Lip? Zimmer and Pettite weren't happy with the way Steinbrenner treated them, Sheffield was miffed at the Braves when he left, and Billy Wagner had harsh words for the Astros traded him to the Phillies. All this offseason.

Mickster
02-02-2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just curious...please list those players who said they were happy to play for the Sox when they were traded / retired / released.

I'll give you a head start Harold Baines.


Lip,

How do you explain the Yankees? Here is an owner that spends.spends..spends. This year more that a few players left, taking less money, to play for other teams. You can beLIEve, if you like, about playing for your "home" team, and other bs excuses that those players gave.

You don't have to "rip" the organization when you leave. Sometimes, actions speak louder then words...and money....

Lip Man 1
02-02-2004, 06:51 PM
Joe:

OK that's one each... care to keep going? Look at the number of players on the Sox list.

As far as the coaches I agree they should be treated correctly simply because they are people but as far as whether they are as important as the players...not in my book.

Negative comments from players and perhaps as important agents are what becomes perceived as reality. And the Sox have had plenty of those haven't they?

I'm not saying no other teams has people who have complained when they left but for total numbers the Sox win hands down.

and I forgot (silly me) Carlton Fisk.

Lip

ChiSox21
02-02-2004, 07:25 PM
Greg Maddux had harsh words when the Cubs couldn't resign him and now look at him it might keep him again from resigning with them.

SEALgep
02-02-2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Marq:

Just curious...please list those players who said they were happy to play for the Sox when they were traded / retired / released.

I'll give you a head start Harold Baines.

Lip
Lamar Hoyt, you next.

joecrede
02-02-2004, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Lamar Hoyt, you next.

Mike Huff loved his stay here too ....

soxnut
02-03-2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


Sammy Sosa, Robin Ventura, Ellis Burks, Paul Assenmacher, Kevin Tapani, Roberto Hernandez, Jack McDowell, Wilson Alvarez, Julio Franco, Ozzie Guillen, Bo Jackson, George Bell and even though he wasn't a player Harry Caray.


But the point is when you have so many divergent personalities all being criticle of the organization and in many cases one individual in particular, that says something.


Lip

I can see your point somewhat, but do pay as much attention to other organizations as much to get a fair viewpoint? And also, of all of the guys mentioned, only Sosa and Caray's careers really improved greatly after leaving the Sox.

Clarkdog
02-03-2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by maurice
I'm normally a Sox optimist, but my reason for pessimism this offseason is simply and unrebuttable: Sox management decided to bring back a significantly worse team than the one that failed to win the worst division in the AL last season.

If anybody thinks that some combination of Willie Harris and Ozzie Guillen will make up the substantial difference, they are deluding themselves. The only way the Sox win is if every other team in the division sucks worse or if a large percentage of the roster has a career year. While that's a distinct possibility, it's no reason for optimism.

This is a great point and to build on it....

The calls of the organization being "cheap" ring a bit hollow when you consider that the current payroll sits at about $63 million right now - above the set $58 million. Granted it is still below the league average - but who cares how high your payroll is if you can't spend it wisely?

What angers me is that with "limited resources", how poorly the Sox have painted themselves into this current fiscal situation, and then to say that "if the we're in the race and the fans come out, we'll get some players". So we, the fans are on the hook to solve for this mismanagement and try to make the team a winner. They have spent more money than in 2003 and are delivering a worse product on paper in 2004 to contend in the worst division in baseball. If we were in the AL East, we'd be talking about battling Toronto and Tampa for 4th.

How does this happen?

With $63 million spent wisely - the Sox could dominate the AL Central and contend in October. $75 Million would be better though. :smile:

I'm willing to wait and see and pull for them because I'm a Sox fan - but that doesn't make me optimistic.

Iwritecode
02-03-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Sammy Sosa, Robin Ventura, Ellis Burks, Paul Assenmacher, Kevin Tapani, Roberto Hernandez, Jack McDowell, Wilson Alvarez, Julio Franco, Ozzie Guillen, Bo Jackson, George Bell and even though he wasn't a player Harry Caray.

What has Sosa said about the organization?

Also, if guys like McDowell and Guillen had harsh words, why do they come back again? McDowell has been at Soxfest the past couple of years.

Then there's guys like Joey Cora (who also came back), Darrin Jackson, Frank Thomas (who's been around forever), Jose Valentin (who reportedly took less money to stay here)...

There are a number of guys you can name on each side. I'm sure every team has them.

Iwritecode
02-03-2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
They have spent more money than in 2003 and are delivering a worse product on paper in 2004 to contend in the worst division in baseball. How does this happen?

Loaiza is making more this year, Garland, Lee and Burly (or did he sign last year?) signed contracts, Maggs is making more this year, Thomas is making more this year...

Originally posted by Clarkdog
With $63 million spent wisely - the Sox could dominate the AL Central and contend in October. $75 Million would be better though. :smile:

The two biggest drains I see right now are Koch and Konerko. Even if those two guys have career years, I still think they need at least one more starting pitcher though...

Clarkdog
02-03-2004, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Loaiza is making more this year, Garland, Lee and Burly (or did he sign last year?) signed contracts, Maggs is making more this year, Thomas is making more this year...

The two biggest drains I see right now are Koch and Konerko. Even if those two guys have career years, I still think they need at least one more starting pitcher though...

IWC:

Agreed. I would throw Maggs (a backloaded contract) into the Konerko/Koch camp. These contracts are albatrosses. $5 million for Valentin? A little better deal making and contract stucturing and there's your starting pitcher.

Guys like Loaiza, Buehrle, Lee, Garland are going to need deals you need to lock up players like these. But when you have "limited resources" the albatrosses get magnified and handcuff the organization.

Lip Man 1
02-03-2004, 12:36 PM
I Write Code:

In his book Sosa wrote that leaving the White Sox was like "being let out of jail..." among other things.

and in regards to your comment on 'why do they come back?' I see your point (somewhat) but what matters isn't what these players do in regards to the Sox after they have retired , but what their relationship is when they are still playing.

Talented players leaving the Sox in droves then 'bad mouthing' the organization:

A. Doesn't help the team win games
B. Sends out the message to the small fraternity know as
MLBPA that the Sox are a bad team to play for.

"Perception becomes reality..."

Lip

Iwritecode
02-03-2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
IWC:

Agreed. I would throw Maggs (a backloaded contract) into the Konerko/Koch camp. These contracts are albatrosses. $5 million for Valentin? A little better deal making and contract stucturing and there's your starting pitcher.

Guys like Loaiza, Buehrle, Lee, Garland are going to need deals you need to lock up players like these. But when you have "limited resources" the albatrosses get magnified and handcuff the organization.

I'm not sure I would include Maggs. I think he's getting a pretty fair deal. Valentin is a little overpaid but not quite as bad a Koch or Konerko.

When Koch and Konerko were given their contracts, nobody had any idea they would fall off as badly as they did. If they would have even put up average numbers last year it wouldn't be quite as bad.

The biggest problem IMO, is that KW has absolutely no room for error what-so-ever. Even Jose's contract is magnafied because he has so little room to work with.

On the whole, KW has spent the money he has to work with fairly wisely. To be a contending team, you are going to have to overpay for a couple of guys. Right now, the Sox can't afford to do that.

I'm not sure the Marlins or A's are a great examples of spending wisely as much as they are examples of getting quite lucky/fortunate that a lot of their young players played extremely well all at the same time...

MarqSox
02-03-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Also, if guys like McDowell and Guillen had harsh words, why do they come back again? McDowell has been at Soxfest the past couple of years.

Then there's guys like Joey Cora (who also came back), Darrin Jackson, Frank Thomas (who's been around forever), Jose Valentin (who reportedly took less money to stay here)...

Adding to the list:

Bo Jackson
Cal Eldred
Steve Lyons
Jose Canseco
Robin Ventura
Bobby Thigpen
Chris Singleton
Keith Foulke (angry about being traded, but liked the franchise)
Ron Karkovice
Brook Fordyce

That's just off the top of my head.

soxwon
02-03-2004, 05:04 PM
your a sox fan and you are against a sox fan that is optomistic, -that believes in our team!
whats wrong here, leave him alone, i wish all you pesimists would HAVE FAITH TOO!!!
IM THE Eternal optomist we wil win the division!!!!