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whitesoxwilkes
02-01-2004, 03:16 PM
I happened to pick up Brian West's Turn Back The Clock Day uniform at the Sox Garage Sale today. Apparently they had it made up in antcipation of him being on the team this past year, but he never got the call. What's his story? His numbers in Birmingham seem to be nothing short of craptacular.

Brian26
02-01-2004, 04:23 PM
Wilkes, I looked at that one specifically Friday and Saturday. Question for you- Are the numbers on the back all in navy blue? Or was it the one with red numbers w/ blue trim?

Did you see those gorgeous '67 TBTC jerseys? There was a #44 and a #41 as of Sat night, but I passed on them. Both were $250.

I was tempted by the $300 Ventura road jersey exactly in my size from '98, but I decided to pass.

MarkEdward
02-01-2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by whitesoxwilkes
I happened to pick up Brian West's Turn Back The Clock Day uniform at the Sox Garage Sale today. Apparently they had it made up in antcipation of him being on the team this past year, but he never got the call. What's his story? His numbers in Birmingham seem to be nothing short of craptacular.

He has quit baseball to go play football for LSU.

whitesoxwilkes
02-01-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Wilkes, I looked at that one specifically Friday and Saturday. Question for you- Are the numbers on the back all in navy blue? Or was it the one with red numbers w/ blue trim?

Did you see those gorgeous '67 TBTC jerseys? There was a #44 and a #41 as of Sat night, but I passed on them. Both were $250.

I was tempted by the $300 Ventura road jersey exactly in my size from '98, but I decided to pass.

This one has blue numbers...I saw the red numbered one too...the numbers made it look like an Angels uniform from the 80s. The TBTC jerseys I was really keen on were the 1952 ones with just CHICAGO across the front.

Brian26
02-01-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by whitesoxwilkes
This one has blue numbers...I saw the red numbered one too...the numbers made it look like an Angels uniform from the 80s. The TBTC jerseys I was really keen on were the 1952 ones with just CHICAGO across the front.

I thought the same thing on the red numbers/blue trim. Looked like the Angels.

The '52 jerseys were cool. I actually prefer those over the '53 jerseys that I saw at one of the vendors (same look, except the script on "Chicago" was in that old style similar to the Veeck jerseys of '76-'81).

Lip Man 1
02-01-2004, 10:54 PM
Brain West was another overhyped "can't miss kid,' courtesy of the Sox fine scouting department. He's from West Monroe, Louisiana (the same city as Chuck Finley). I believe he was a high second round pick.

The Sox had high hopes for him because he threw very hard unfortunately as you said, he basically sucked.

After a few seasons in the Sox minor league system, he'd had enough and retired.

He is now a 24 year old linebacker on the LSU team. (and he's pretty good by all accounts)

Lip

Brian26
02-01-2004, 11:05 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Brain West was another overhyped "can't miss kid,' courtesy of the Sox fine scouting department.
Lip

Was that the same fine scouting department that found Buehrle?

Rex Hudler
02-01-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Brain West was another overhyped "can't miss kid,' courtesy of the Sox fine scouting department. He's from West Monroe, Louisiana (the same city as Chuck Finley). I believe he was a high second round pick.

The Sox had high hopes for him because he threw very hard unfortunately as you said, he basically sucked.

After a few seasons in the Sox minor league system, he'd had enough and retired.

He is now a 24 year old linebacker on the LSU team. (and he's pretty good by all accounts)

Lip

The Sox had high hopes for him because he threw hard and had good stuff. But I wouldn't say he was "can't miss" because he was considered a project from Day 1. He had to learn to find consistency in his mechanics and how to command the ball. As he climbed the ladder, in order to do that, he had to pull back on the velocity. Unfortunately, that made him very hittable, on top of never really gaining good command.

He was a big kid with a good arm, so the Sox took a chance on him. The expectations came from the potential.

As was said, he left Bigmingham in August before the season ended to enroll at LSU. He walked on to the football team and was good enough to get playing time in the Sugar Bowl. He lined up at defensive end (though listed as a LB) spelling LSU's two big guns on the left side of the line. Not bad for a guy that had not played football since 1998.

He will not return to the Sox. His baseball days are over.

Lip Man 1
02-02-2004, 11:06 AM
Brian says: Was that the same fine scouting department that found Buehrle?

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again.

And that same organization thought at best, Mark was going to be a middle reliever. If the Sox hadn't ruined all their pitchers arms in the second half of 2000 because Ron Schueler refused to go out and acquire pitching help, Buehrle would never have even had the chance to start games in spring training of 2001.

Lip

Lip Man 1
02-02-2004, 11:08 AM
Rex:

Just curious, and I'm not being facetious, WHY would the Sox waste a high second round pick on a kid who was considered a "project?"

That seems a major risk for that high of a pick.

Lip

jeremyb1
02-02-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Brian says: Was that the same fine scouting department that found Buehrle?

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again.

And that same organization thought at best, Mark was going to be a middle reliever. If the Sox hadn't ruined all their pitchers arms in the second half of 2000 because Ron Schueler refused to go out and acquire pitching help, Buehrle would never have even had the chance to start games in spring training of 2001.

Lip

Hahahaha. What is the argument that you're putting for here Lip, that every prospect in the organization needs to become a star for us to be any kind of success? I want you to take a step back and consider how ridiculous that sounds. More than half of pitching prospects never even reach the majors!

Maybe we misjudged Buehrle's potential at first but you know what? He might not have even been drafted if we didn't pick him!!!! What's better, pegging a kid no one thought would be any good as a middle reliever or pegging him as completely worthless and failing to draft him?!

Rex Hudler
02-02-2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rex:

Just curious, and I'm not being facetious, WHY would the Sox waste a high second round pick on a kid who was considered a "project?"

That seems a major risk for that high of a pick.

Lip

A lot of guys that are drafted in the high rounds are drafted for their "upside" as much as their developed skills. Teams look at size, arm strength, etc. and project what they think they can do with them. Some guys pan out, others don't. But when you see a 6'5" guy that throws 95 in HS, scouts salivate that they can "develop" him into a polished pitcher, thinking he has "ace" potential.

This is pretty common practice by many teams. One example is the Braves. They made a living in the 90's of drafting high school athlete's with a high "upside".

poorme
02-02-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler

This is pretty common practice by many teams. One example is the Braves. They made a living in the 90's of drafting high school athlete's with a high "upside".

Good thing they were already rich, because they didn't make much of a living off that.

Rex Hudler
02-02-2004, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Good thing they were already rich, because they didn't make much of a living off that.

I don't know the details of the Braves drafts in the 1990's, but the Braves had a lot of home grown talent who contributed to their success. Their farm systems was considered one of the best and deepest, so what did I miss, poorme??

GW83
02-02-2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rex:

Just curious, and I'm not being facetious, WHY would the Sox waste a high second round pick on a kid who was considered a "project?"

That seems a major risk for that high of a pick.

Lip

A kid is drafted based on "tools" Can he throw 95. Does he have a good body. Can he hit for power. Does he have a good arm. Good speed etc etc.

Since very very few players go straight from being drafted to the majors scouts "project" how good he thinks this kid will be in 3 years in 5 years. Potential or in scout speak, celing is hard to guage.

Since it's very hard to project how good somebody is there are ton of first round picks and high second who are busts. Kark being a first round bust.

Anyways scouts thought West had a very high ceiling because he could throw 95. That's something no scout can teach. It's God given. But a kid can be taught control, a breaking pitch or change up, how to set up hitters, etc etc.

He didn't make it. So join the club. Out of the 50 guys drafted about half sign with the team. Out of those 25 signed maybe 3 will even play ONE game in the majors. That's not being an everyday player or anything. That's a cup of coffee, Sept, call up guy.

Tekijawa
02-02-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Rex:

Just curious, and I'm not being facetious, WHY would the Sox waste a high second round pick on a kid who was considered a "project?"

That seems a major risk for that high of a pick.

Lip

For the same reson they wasted a First round pick and a 5 million dollar signing bonus on a CF that Strikes out like it's his job and can barely hit his weight in the minors!

rdivaldi
02-02-2004, 03:54 PM
If you go through lists of players drafted in the first round, I'd say over half of them do not make an impact in the major leagues.

For example, look at the first round of 1997:

1 Matt Anderson RHP Tigers
2 *J.D. Drew OF Phillies
3 Troy Glaus 3B Angels
4 Jason Grilli RHP Giants
5 Vernon Wells OF Blue Jays
6 Geoff Goetz LHP Mets
7 Dan Reichert RHP Royals
8 J.J. Davis 1B Pirates
9 Michael Cuddyer SS Twins
10 Jon Garland RHP Cubs
11 Chris Enochs RHP Athletics
12 Aaron Akin RHP Marlins
13 Kyle Peterson RHP Brewers
14 Brandon Larson SS Reds
15 Jason Dellaero SS White Sox
16 Lance Berkman 1B Astros
17 John Curtice LHP Red Sox
18 Mark Mangum RHP Rockies
19 Ryan Anderson LHP Mariners
20 Adam Kennedy SS Cardinals
21 Eric DuBose LHP Athletics
22 Jayson Werth C Orioles
23 Donnie Bridges RHP Expos
24 *Tyrell Godwin OF Yankees
25 Glenn Davis 1B Dodgers
26 Darnell McDonald OF Orioles
27 Kevin Nicholson SS Padres
28 Tim Drew RHP Indians
29 Troy Cameron SS Braves
30 Jack Cust 1B D-backs
31 Jason Standridge RHP Devil Rays

Besides J.D. Drew, Glaus, Wells, Berkman, and Kennedy, how many of these guys have made an impact in MLB?

GW83
02-02-2004, 05:01 PM
Who was the A's GM in 97? Guess there's no way it's Billy The Genius Beane right? He never makes mistakes. Who the hell is Chris Enochs. Guess Berkman OBP wasn't high enough.

Lip Man 1
02-02-2004, 06:24 PM
Jeremy says: "I want you to take a step back and consider how ridiculous that sounds."

About as ridiculous as you saying that Rogers and Suppan were done and that the Sox would have been better off with Rauch last season. (and this season for that matter.....)

If you want to really help Jeremy please figure out how the Sox can win a championship without a ton of top pitchers either home grown or acquired. If you can do that, I have enough contacts that I can get the solution to Kenny Williams and that's a promise.

Lip

hogsmom
02-02-2004, 06:35 PM
I saw Brian West pitching on e night when a batter came after him. Brian sat down that batter with one swing.

joecrede
02-02-2004, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
And that same organization thought at best, Mark was going to be a middle reliever.

Lip [/B]

Source?

Lip Man 1
02-02-2004, 06:45 PM
Jerry Manuel admitted that he had no plans to start Buehrle but was forced to give him a look due to all the injuries.

Lip

joecrede
02-02-2004, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jerry Manuel admitted that he had no plans to start Buehrle but was forced to give him a look due to all the injuries.

Lip

Buehrle was a dominant starter in Birmingham. There were always higher expectations for him than middle relief.

Rex Hudler
02-02-2004, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jerry Manuel admitted that he had no plans to start Buehrle but was forced to give him a look due to all the injuries.

Lip

This is true. He was slated for the bullpen that year.

However, he was always seen as a starter and it was assumed he would end up there. He was only going to throw out of the bullpen because they had startes already and he was good enough to pitch in the Majors at that time.

poorme
02-02-2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I don't know the details of the Braves drafts in the 1990's, but the Braves had a lot of home grown talent who contributed to their success. Their farm systems was considered one of the best and deepest, so what did I miss, poorme??

Year
Top Pick

1992
Jamie Arnold

1993
Andre King

1994
Jacob Shumate

1995
*Chad Hutchinson

1996
A.J. Zapp

1997
Troy Cameron

1998
Matt Belisle

1999
Matt Butler

2000
Adam Wainwright

2001
Macay McBride

2002
Jeff Francoeur

Rex Hudler
02-02-2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by poorme
Year
Top Pick

1992
Jamie Arnold

1993
Andre King

1994
Jacob Shumate

1995
*Chad Hutchinson

1996
A.J. Zapp

1997
Troy Cameron

1998
Matt Belisle

1999
Matt Butler

2000
Adam Wainwright

2001
Macay McBride

2002
Jeff Francoeur

Point in your favor...... However, if you include 1990 and 1991 and include all picks in the top two rounds, would their track record still be as bad?? I'm open-minded to being wrong here. LOL

Did you notice that the 1997 pick Troy Cameron is the same Troy Cameron the Sox signed this offseason and will likely be in Birmingham to start the season?

poorme
02-02-2004, 07:33 PM
I'm not sure...don't have that info. The Braves must have drafted OK, but their strategy of drafting high schoolers in the first round didn't work. (they did get chipper jones, though). Avery and Tyler Houston were other ones...

Their success was due to: Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and an ownership willing to spend money.

Rex Hudler
02-02-2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by poorme
I'm not sure...don't have that info. The Braves must have drafted OK, but their strategy of drafting high schoolers in the first round didn't work. (they did get chipper jones, though). Avery and Tyler Houston were other ones...

Their success was due to: Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and an ownership willing to spend money.

I'll see if I can't dig up a Braves Media Guide and find out. You may be right and they may not have been as successful as it seemed. The one thing about drafting high impact HS athletes, is that some of them will make it big but most will flop.

So the question begs...... If running a draft, do you go for higher impact players or draft safer college players who may not have the upside a HS kid does? Do you go with the percentages or try to hit a HR less often?

poorme
02-02-2004, 08:03 PM
I take the best college player available, but that's just me. And no way I waste a pick on some guy with "tools" who hasn't put them to good use.

jeremyb1
02-03-2004, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy says: "I want you to take a step back and consider how ridiculous that sounds."

About as ridiculous as you saying that Rogers and Suppan were done and that the Sox would have been better off with Rauch last season. (and this season for that matter.....)

If you want to really help Jeremy please figure out how the Sox can win a championship without a ton of top pitchers either home grown or acquired. If you can do that, I have enough contacts that I can get the solution to Kenny Williams and that's a promise.

1. This discussion had nothing to do with Suppan and Rogers. My comment was related to the rate at which minor league pitchers should reasonabily be expected to succeed in the major leagues. You apparently don't care to discuss that once I put you on the spot.

2. At no point did I state that Suppan and Rogers were "done" last season. I incorrectly projected that Rogers would be below average due to his advancing age while he was in fact average or slightly above average. I was never completely opposed to signing Suppan. I also never claimed that Rauch would outperform Rogers and Suppan, I only argued that a group of pitchers including Rauch and 21 game winner Esteban Loaiza should be allowed the opportunity to compete for a starting spot.

As we've previously discussed Lip, you also failed to predict Rauch and Wright's injury problems last season. You frequently argued they would struggle because of youth and inexperience but not because of health problems.

GW83
02-03-2004, 02:14 AM
"Their success was due to: Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and an ownership willing to spend money."

Maddux was signed as a free agent from the Cubs. So that did take money by ownership.

Glavine drafted and developed by the Braves.

Smoltz acquired in a trade with Detroit for Doyle Alexander.

Now the Braves ownership should be given props for "keeping" the big three together for so long. What? 5-7 years?

The Sox big three of MB, Parque, Sirtoka were split up after one year.