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KingXerxes
02-01-2004, 11:27 AM
This is too much to take. I open my paper today and find the following quote "I think the fans just go [to Wrigley Field] to party.....Don't get me wrong, Dusty [Baker] is a friend, but they don't go there to watch baseball." And who uttered this tired old bromide? A big White Sox fan? Nope. None other than the Clown Prince of Southside Baseball - Ozzie Guillen. This organization totally lost it's way a few years ago when it tried to portray itself in the "Hey we're not the Cubs" light. It was stupid, bitter, and contains an attitude not unlike that of an angry suburban housewife who's mad that the next door neighbor's husband got a nice bonus at work. It's pathetic on any level - but to have your manager out there chirping it is just plain stupid.

They have got to be kidding me with this! Here we are at SoxFest, and the manager is taking shots at the Cubs, the absolute shill of an announcer is not only in charge of floating the trial balloon about letting Ordonez go - he also talks of how "excited" he is to see Willie Harris and Aaron Rowand in the starting line up, all the while the general manager is acting like some sort of tough guy when it comes to a critical question, and then goes on to defend his choice of hiring our version of Max Patkin by saying, "After a tough loss, when I feel it in my gut, I know there will be one person who feels it as much as I do..." WAS THAT THE CRITERIA FOR A NEW MANAGER??????

While I was never in either camp on the issue - you can now put me squarely in the "Reinsdorf has to sell this club" camp. While many of you out there may not have any friends who are Cub fans - I do. This organization is almost getting impossible to defend.

beckett21
02-01-2004, 11:32 AM
I wish we would stop worrying about the Cubs and take care of our own business. Those comments were totally unnecessary. Basically, just trying to pander to Sox fans by bringing up the enemy, and deflecting attention off our own deficiencies. Let's worry about the SOX. I agree with you.

KingXerxes
02-01-2004, 11:45 AM
Beckett21 - When are they going to realize how stupid they look with this tact? I'm telling you everytime they act like this, they lose popularity - and the Cubs gain it. Why in hell would they be trotting out this stupidity at their own showcase?

"White Sox 2004 - Attitude.........Housefrau Attitude"

soxfan26
02-01-2004, 11:46 AM
Well said KingXerxes. I myself have pitched my tent in the "Sell Jerry Sell" camp recently. I have been dissapointed with the direction of the organization for the past 3 years especially. I think it is definitely time for a change. When a team underachieves you fire the manager. Now the organization is failing and it is absolutely JR's fault, he needs to go.

:sellreinsy

soxnut
02-01-2004, 11:47 AM
Ya know, maybe you guys should stop reading the paper for one thing. If you weren't there for the comment, you don't have anything to say. And btw every year, IT IS THE FANS WHO BRING UP THE CUBS AT SOXFEST. It happens every year. And because of this the Sox have felt that is one of Sox fans passions---hating the Cubs.

And don't tell me there are more Cub fans who go to the games and know what's going on than don't. There are a bunch of northsiders that go for partying. I had a discussion with quite a few of them over the fall, and that's why they go to Wrigley and not Comiskey. Or if they do know, they don't care, and they still go. It's been that way for the past 20 years


And as for hiring Ozzie, it was a great move. Passion is what it is all about. I mean they are managers, they really don't do anything. Everybody seems to think that managers are some geniouses--they're not. A manger does not win games for you, but they can lose them. That's what Manuel did. He had no passion and too laid back of an attitude and he tinkeered way too much with the lineup. If you remember anything about what happened in 2000 is that we had a consistent lineup everyday. It was never the case after that, and look at the results.

THE_HOOTER
02-01-2004, 11:48 AM
This is a perfect post---It brongs up many good issues.


The #1 issue/problem the White Sox have is worrying about the Cubs.

I just dont understand how the Sox front office doesnt view these comments about Wrigley/Cubs as classless, stupid, and not prevelant.

I agree he needs to sell-we about to bottom out again.

soxrme
02-01-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Beckett21 - When are they going to realize how stupid they look with this tact? I'm telling you everytime they act like this, they lose popularity - and the Cubs gain it. Why in hell would they be trotting out this stupidity at their own showcase?

"White Sox 2004 - Attitude.........Housefrau Attitude"
I believe this is more of the sharp marketing and public relations from Rob Gallas.

soxnut
02-01-2004, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
I wish we would stop worrying about the Cubs and take care of our own business. Those comments were totally unnecessary. Basically, just trying to pander to Sox fans by bringing up the enemy, and deflecting attention off our own deficiencies. Let's worry about the SOX. I agree with you.

of course it pandering.....it's the impression the Sox get from the fans for their idiotic obsession with dissing the Cubs.

beckett21
02-01-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Beckett21 - When are they going to realize how stupid they look with this tact? I'm telling you everytime they act like this, they lose popularity - and the Cubs gain it. Why in hell would they be trotting out this stupidity at their own showcase?

"White Sox 2004 - Attitude.........Housefrau Attitude"

You are so right on this. They don't seem to realize that every time we knock them, it just shows how we feel inferior to them. The Cubs don't seem to need to bash the Sox...we do a good enough job of that ourselves.

Maybe if they worried a little more about the Twins and Royals, maybe if we could have done better than 10-9 against DETROIT last year...stupid, stupid, STUPID. I couldn't agree with you more.

KingXerxes
02-01-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by soxnut
of course it pandering.....it's the impression the Sox get from the fans for their idiotic obsession with dissing the Cubs.

I have absolutely no problem with White Sox fans dissing the Cubs - just please do so with an ounce of intelligence. To say "Nobody watches the game at Wrigley Field" or "We have more fans who know the game" is flat out stupid and unverifiable. It doesn't make the Cubs look stupid - it makes the person saying it look stupid. All that being said, fans are fans and that's fine.

But these weren't fans saying it were they? No - it was our front office. Morons.

beckett21
02-01-2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
[B]Ya know, maybe you guys should stop reading the paper for one thing. If you weren't there for the comment, you don't have anything to say. And btw every year, IT IS THE FANS WHO BRING UP THE CUBS AT SOXFEST. It happens every year. And because of this the Sox have felt that is one of Sox fans passions---hating the Cubs.

And don't tell me there are more Cub fans who go to the games and know what's going on than don't. There are a bunch of northsiders that go for partying. I had a discussion with quite a few of them over the fall, and that's why they go to Wrigley and not Comiskey. Or if they do know, they don't care, and they still go. It's been that way for the past 20 years

No one is disputing these things as facts. Point is, THEY ARE NOT IN OUR LEAGUE OR DIVISION. Sure, I hate the Cubs as much as the next guy--the powers that be in the organization need to take care of their own business. Fans are fans. Do you think Hendry and McPhail stay up nights thinking of ways to beat the Sox? They seem more worried about Houston if you ask me...we make ourselves look ignorant.

I don't disagree that Cub fans are a bunch of lemmings...let's not stoop below their level.

soxfan26
02-01-2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
Ya know, maybe you guys should stop reading the paper for one thing. If you weren't there for the comment, you don't have anything to say. And btw every year, IT IS THE FANS WHO BRING UP THE CUBS AT SOXFEST. It happens every year. And because of this the Sox have felt that is one of Sox fans passions---hating the Cubs.

And don't tell me there are more Cub fans who go to the games and know what's going on than don't. There are a bunch of northsiders that go for partying. I had a discussion with quite a few of them over the fall, and that's why they go to Wrigley and not Comiskey. Or if they do know, they don't care, and they still go. It's been that way for the past 20 years


And as for hiring Ozzie, it was a great move. Passion is what it is all about. I mean they are managers, they really don't do anything. Everybody seems to think that managers are some geniouses--they're not. A manger does not win games for you, but they can lose them. That's what Manuel did. He had no passion and too laid back of an attitude and he tinkeered way too much with the lineup. If you remember anything about what happened in 2000 is that we had a consistent lineup everyday. It was never the case after that, and look at the results.

The overall disgust that most Sox fans have for this organization has very little to do with a single comment made by Ozzie Guillen about Cub fans. Don't put what KingXeres is saying under the microscope. For me Guillen's comments were just another knife in the back from JR. I will reserve judgement on Ozzie as a manager, but so far as a leader and public speaker he has proven PaleHoseGeorge's sig to be true...

WHITE SOX BASEBALL: CHEAP, TIMID, AND STUPID

soxnut
02-01-2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I have absolutely no problem with White Sox fans dissing the Cubs - just please do so with an ounce of intelligence. To say "Nobody watches the game at Wrigley Field" or "We have more fans who know the game" is flat out stupid and unverifiable. It doesn't make the Cubs look stupid - it makes the person saying it look stupid. All that being said, fans are fans and that's fine.

But these weren't fans saying it were they? No - it was our front office. Morons.

It's still what alot of Sox fans think, and that's the impression the FO gets from our fans, that that's the kind of thing probably think they want to hear. And I don't have a problem with it. But I would prefer that overall, fans and FO included, that we just concentrate on rooting for OUR team. As KW said, let's root for what we got. I agree.

beckett21
02-01-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
It's still what alot of Sox fans think, and that's the impression the FO gets from our fans, that that's the kind of thing probably think they want to hear. And I don't have a problem with it. But I would prefer that overall, fans and FO included, that we just concentrate on rooting for OUR team. As KW said, let's root for what we got. I agree.

Good point and I agree that is how it should be. Of course fans are always going to compare the two, it's inevitable. But the front office shouldn't get into the fray just to take attention away from their lack of improvement in the offseason. And people will probably say "How do you KNOW we are not improved?"

Time will tell.

CubKilla
02-01-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
But I would prefer that overall, fans and FO included, that we just concentrate on rooting for OUR team. As KW said, let's root for what we got. I agree.

If it wasn't for the fact that the White Sox are in the AL Central, we'd have nothing left to cheer for come June except for the Cubs to lose.

Deadguy
02-01-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
I wish we would stop worrying about the Cubs and take care of our own business. Those comments were totally unnecessary. Basically, just trying to pander to Sox fans by bringing up the enemy, and deflecting attention off our own deficiencies. Let's worry about the SOX. I agree with you.

I have to agree. I grow tired of this childish obsession that a large percentage of Sox fans have with the Cubs. Maybe I just don't understand it, since I don't live in Chicago, but I still live in a community and a family that is largely Cub biased, yet I don't share this obsession over every single detail about the Cubs organization.

The only time I worry about how we compare to the Cubs is when we play them 6 times a year. Other than that, I'm much more worried about what the Twins, Royals, or Indians are doing.

duke of dorwood
02-01-2004, 12:35 PM
King, I stopped defending them-you cant without sounding like a drooling idiot anymore. Anyone that reads the papers or listens to Sox mgt sound bites . knows the facts. Its funny-the Cub majority , who agressively attacked me and the Sox in the past, now have a sympathetic sort of confidence, always bringing up the opportunity to prosper in a weak division. THIS IS WHAT THESE CLOWNS HAVE CAUSED.

soxnut
02-01-2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
If it wasn't for the fact that the White Sox are in the AL Central, we'd have nothing left to cheer for come June except for the Cubs to lose.

Well yeah, the Sox are in the AL Central. But, that does give them a chance to make the playoffs. And like KW did last year, if the Sox are in contention, he will get the players the Sox need to compete in the post-season.

CubKilla
02-01-2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
And like KW did last year, if the Sox are in contention, he will get the players the Sox need to compete in the post-season.

He qualified that earlier last week with only if the fans show up to see a team w/more than one hole in April and May.

Paulwny
02-01-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
Well yeah, the Sox are in the AL Central. But, that does give them a chance to make the playoffs. And like KW did last year, if the Sox are in contention, he will get the players the Sox need to compete in the post-season.

KW forgets to say, if we're not in contention expect a fire sale at the AS break.

beckett21
02-01-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
Well yeah, the Sox are in the AL Central. But, that does give them a chance to make the playoffs. And like KW did last year, if the Sox are in contention, he will get the players the Sox need to compete in the post-season.

The division should be--SHOULD BE--a foregone conclusion. We should be figuring out how to beat Oakland, Boston, NYY, etc. Unfortunately, the division is NOT a foregone conclusion. The midseason pickups should be about advancing beyond the 1st round of the playoffs. Instead, we will be fighting to win 85-88 games and hoping that is enough to squeak into the playoffs. And no, just getting to the playoffs and getting swept in 3 games is NOT enough. Set the bar a little higher.

joecrede
02-01-2004, 12:44 PM
Some Sox fans find the wildest reasons to bash the organization. I love the humor of it all ... "what will this zany fandom think of next."

voodoochile
02-01-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
While I was never in either camp on the issue - you can now put me squarely in the "Reinsdorf has to sell this club" camp. While many of you out there may not have any friends who are Cub fans - I do. This organization is almost getting impossible to defend.

Welcome Aboard! :D:

:selljerry

soxnut
02-01-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
He qualified that earlier last week with only if the fans show up to see a team w/more than one hole in April and May.


KW is not telling fans to show or else. He is saying that he knows fans won't show if the Sox are not competitve. So, if the Sox are showing signs of being competitive, the fans will show, and then because of that he can go out and get what is needed.

And btw, no team is perfect, they all have holes. It's all about the attitude and approach to the game. If Sox wouldn't have been such dumb hitters in their approach at the plate during the first two months, and if they wouldn't have taken Detroit so lightly, there would have been alot of post-season baseball in this town last year. And considering that the Sox lineup is bascially the same as last year, if they can have the same attitude and approach to hitting as they had at the end of the year, they will be competitive.

voodoochile
02-01-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
KW is not telling fans to show or else. He is saying that he knows fans won't show if the Sox are not competitve. So, if the Sox are showing signs of being competitive, the fans will show, and then because of that he can go out and get what is needed.

And btw, no team is perfect, they all have holes. It's all about the attitude and approach to the game. If Sox wouldn't have been such dumb hitters in their approach at the plate during the first two months, and if they wouldn't have taken Detroit so lightly, there would have been alot of post-season baseball in this town last year. And considering that the Sox lineup is bascially the same as last year, if they can have the same attitude and approach to hitting as they had at the end of the year, they will be competitive.

What exactly are the Sox competing for? The chance to win the ALC and get quickly eliminated? DOn't hand me that tired old line about the playoffs being a crapshoot. You won't really think that when the Sox are sending Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland and Wright to the mound in the playoffs to face Pedro, Schilling, Lowe and whoever is #4 on the BoSox or the yankees top 4. Maybe you will feel comfortable with those matchups, but personally, it smacks of someone who "isn't paying attention to the game".

They have the same lineup that played 10 games under .500 until the middle of June. How exactly are we supposed to feel good about that?

beckett21
02-01-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Some Sox fans find the wildest reasons to bash the organization. I love the humor of it all ... "what will this zany fandom think of next."

You're right, we should be PROUD of a team with such a proud history to not have played in a WS for 44 years and counting, while the Florida Marlins have TWO WS titles in 10 years of existence...the second after a complete dismantling of the first championship squad by arguably a worse owner than JR himself (who incidentally has one more WS title than JR)...but, hey, let's just try to win our DIVISION, that'll keep 'em quiet and happy for awhile... :angry:

beckett21
02-01-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
What exactly are the Sox competing for? The chance to win the ALC and get quickly eliminated? DOn't hand me that tired old line about the playoffs being a crapshoot. You won't really think that when the Sox are sending Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland and Wright to the mound in the playoffs to face Pedro, Schilling, Lowe and whoever is #4 on the BoSox or the yankees top 4. Maybe you will feel comfortable with those matchups, but personally, it smacks of someone who "isn't paying attention to the game".

They have the same lineup that played 10 games under .500 until the middle of June. How exactly are we supposed to feel good about that?

Oh...it'll be a CRAPshoot, allright... :D:

Lip Man 1
02-01-2004, 12:59 PM
Isn't it interesting that the Sox organization seems to be so concerned about the Cubs except where it really counts.... by putting a better team then them on the field.

Given the money spent by the Cubs the past two years and the lack of moves by the Sox this offseason I find their fixation with the Cubs interesting.

(and remember Williams' comment Friday night about how he's tried of the Cubs getting all the publicity)

It all goes back to what I've bben saying all along...build a championship caliber club, win the friggin, title and you'll get all the respect and publicity you could ever want or need.

Lip

bc2k
02-01-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Isn't it interesting that the Sox organization seems to be so concerned about the Cubs except where it really counts.... by putting a better team then them on the field.

Great point.

CubKilla
02-01-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
You're right, we should be PROUD of a team with such a proud history to not have played in a WS for 44 years and counting, while the Florida Marlins have TWO WS titles in 10 years of existence...the second after a complete dismantling of the first championship squad by arguably a worse owner than JR himself (who incidentally has one more WS title than JR)...but, hey, let's just try to win our DIVISION, that'll keep 'em quiet and happy for awhile... :angry:

Beckett..... some people on this board just don't get it.

soxnut
02-01-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
What exactly are the Sox competing for? The chance to win the ALC and get quickly eliminated? DOn't hand me that tired old line about the playoffs being a crapshoot. You won't really think that when the Sox are sending Loaiza, Buehrle, Garland and Wright to the mound in the playoffs to face Pedro, Schilling, Lowe and whoever is #4 on the BoSox or the yankees top 4. Maybe you will feel comfortable with those matchups, but personally, it smacks of someone who "isn't paying attention to the game".

They have the same lineup that played 10 games under .500 until the middle of June. How exactly are we supposed to feel good about that?

It was mostly about their approach to hitting, that's what put them there. That changed, and they started winning.


Like I said, if the Sox are in contention, KW will go out and get what is needed. If it is a veteran pitcher that is needed, which I think it is, hopefully that's what he gets. BTW, who are the Yankees top 4? You didn't seem to mention any names and off the bat I'm not sure who they are...so I'm not too impressed with what the Yanks are gonna put out this year.

Boston, on the other hand, looks tough...but are Pedro(is his arm going to make it & who I'm not too sure abut his post-season numbers) and Schilling(who is getting older) going to last all season? Hey I may be looking for a little silver lining, but I'm still looking forward to the season. It beats the alternative....... :D:

beckett21
02-01-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
[B]It was mostly about their approach to hitting, that's what put them there. That changed, and they started winning.


Like I said, if the Sox are in contention, KW will go out and get what is needed. If it is a veteran pitcher that is needed, which I think it is, hopefully that's what he gets. BTW, who are the Yankees top 4? You didn't seem to mention any names and off the bat I'm not sure who they are...so I'm not too impressed with what the Yanks are gonna put out this year.

Mussina, Kevin Brown, Javier Vazquez top 3, Contreras and Lieber 4/5...color me impressed.

A. Cavatica
02-01-2004, 01:23 PM
Well yeah, the Sox are in the AL Central. But, that does give them a chance to make the playoffs. And like KW did last year, if the Sox are in contention, he will get the players the Sox need to compete in the post-season.

And how did that work out?

Everyone forgets that with the schedule imbalance the '03 Sox had a much bigger midseason hole to climb out of than their W-L record indicated. The Sox didn't lose the division in September, they lost it in April and May, when they should've been opening a double-digit lead on Minny and KC. Going and getting Alomar, Everett, & Sullivan at mideason was too little, too late.

beckett21
02-01-2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
And how did that work out?

Everyone forgets that with the schedule imbalance the '03 Sox had a much bigger midseason hole to climb out of than their W-L record indicated. The Sox didn't lose the division in September, they lost it in April and May, when they should've been opening a double-digit lead on Minny and KC. Going and getting Alomar, Everett, & Sullivan at mideason was too little, too late.

I think the MAJORITY of us remember that... :D:

CubKilla
02-01-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Going and getting Alomar, Everett, & Sullivan at mideason was too little, too late.

Remember not to discount NOT firing JM at or before the AllStar Break. I really could have seen the White Sox pull off a Marlins-esque run in the AL Playoffs with the right managerial replacement for the 2nd half.

soxnut
02-01-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Mussina, Kevin Brown, Javier Vazquez top 3, Contreras and Lieber 4/5...color me impressed.


Ok thanks, Mussina and Vazquez look good to me. Brown, the jury is still out for me on him and Conteras and Lieber are also a wait-and see. Lieber is coming off injury and I doubt he'll be 100% this season. It usually takes one full season for a pitcher to get back up to his regular perfomance. But yeah, I guess I'd have to say they look a little better than I thought even with losing Clemens and Pettite.

beckett21
02-01-2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
Ok thanks, Mussina and Vazquez look good to me. Brown, the jury is still out for me on him and Conteras and Lieber are also a wait-and see. Lieber is coming off injury and I doubt he'll be 100% this season. It usually takes one full season for a pitcher to get back up to his regular perfomance. But yeah, I guess I'd have to say they look a little better than I thought even with losing Clemens and Pettite.

Fair enough on Contreras/Lieber. Brown looked good last year, and while he is a risk I would have LOVED for the Sox to have taken that risk. Certainly it would have been one of those moves that would have made KW look like a genius (Loaiza) or an idiot (Wells). Obviously, the truth lies somewhere in between.

I would still trade our staff for theirs inaheartbeat...

Daver
02-01-2004, 01:45 PM
Lieber is under contract with the Yankees.

jabrch
02-01-2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Remember not to discount NOT firing JM at or before the AllStar Break. I really could have seen the White Sox pull off a Marlins-esque run in the AL Playoffs with the right managerial replacement for the 2nd half.


THAT'S IT - RIGHT THERE.

Fire JM at the break and this team comes out fighting - maybe.

Maybe we don't get smoked in Minnesota. Maybe we don't lose an extra half dozen games down the stretch. Maybe...

mdep524
02-01-2004, 01:54 PM
My points:

About Ozzie-
If you guys are going to fly off the handle and get incredulous over every un-PC thing that Ozzie says, you might as well strap yourself into a hospital bed right now, because yourt blood pressure will be off the charts. This is Ozzie Guillen, he is not going to impress you with his words, but let's see what he does on the field and with the players (Big Skirt aside). He is going to ruffle some feathers- if you expect it, you won't be so shocked and disappointed every time he opens his mouth.

About the rampant pessimism,
Hey, I am as negative about this team as the next guy, but if I find the enjoyment factor of taking the L down to Comiskey on a beautiful summer night, grabbing a brat loaded with sour kraut, hanging out with my brother and my friends and catching some baseball is worth my time then I'll do it. I like baseball. I am a White Sox fan. Every decision does not have to be political, or about JR, or with the thought "the owner of this team is ass backwards." Will that stuff factor in? Definitely. If they don't show any level of activity or interest during the season, then it'll reflect negatively. But I am there to see baseball, to see the White Sox players first and foremost, so I'll give 'em a shot.

So I'm saying I agree with you fire and brimstone guys, and I can understand the level of disgust and feeling of abandonment of older fans who've waited forever (I'm 21). But even if we all shout at the top of our lungs, the team's macro-level infastructure is not going to change. So I am going to just deal with it, and make the best of the situation, even though I will still be extremely critical of the team. That is my stance anyway.

depy48
02-01-2004, 02:02 PM
i think thats just a case of Ozzie being Ozzie. Thats a reason why KW brought him in, because has that fire and spirit, and he isnt afraid to show it. Should he have said it? no, Was he right? yes

Wsoxmike59
02-01-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I have absolutely no problem with White Sox fans dissing the Cubs - just please do so with an ounce of intelligence. To say "Nobody watches the game at Wrigley Field" or "We have more fans who know the game" is flat out stupid and unverifiable. It doesn't make the Cubs look stupid - it makes the person saying it look stupid. All that being said, fans are fans and that's fine.

But these weren't fans saying it were they? No - it was our front office. Morons.


Conversely don't 99% of the cub fans beat the attendance argument to death?? That's all I get from the stereotypical ignorant cub fans I hear from on a daily basis. Oh yeah....and what a piece of crap our ballpark is.

It's just us defending our team and our turf against personal attacks by these trendy cub fans. That's all it is.....no more no less.

voodoochile
02-01-2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Wsoxmike59
Conversely don't 99% of the cub fans beat the attendance argument to death?? That's all I get from the stereotypical ignorant cub fans I hear from on a daily basis. Oh yeah....and what a piece of crap our ballpark is.

It's just us defending our team and our turf against personal attacks by these trendy cub fans. That's all it is.....no more no less.

There is a difference when the fans do it and when the front office does it.

With the fans it's trash talking and just part of the rivalry.

When the FO does it, it is paranoia, delusional and just plain sad...

PaleHoseGeorge
02-01-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
There is a difference when the fans do it and when the front office does it.

With the fans it's trash talking and just part of the rivalry.

When the FO does it, it is paranoia, delusional and just plain sad...

Exactly. I enjoy bashing the Lovable Losers and their rabble of fans as much as the next Sox Fan. However hearing the manager or anybody in the front office trash the Cubs or their fans in defense for the shortcomings of the Sox is simply counterproductive.

Leave the trash-talking for Sox Fans. The front office has more practical considerations to address. Or at least it ought to.

:angry:

depy48
02-01-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by mdep524
My points:

About Ozzie-
If you guys are going to fly off the handle and get incredulous over every un-PC thing that Ozzie says, you might as well strap yourself into a hospital bed right now, because yourt blood pressure will be off the charts. This is Ozzie Guillen, he is not going to impress you with his words, but let's see what he does on the field and with the players (Big Skirt aside). He is going to ruffle some feathers- if you expect it, you won't be so shocked and disappointed every time he opens his mouth.

About the rampant pessimism,
Hey, I am as negative about this team as the next guy, but if I find the enjoyment factor of taking the L down to Comiskey on a beautiful summer night, grabbing a brat loaded with sour kraut, hanging out with my brother and my friends and catching some baseball is worth my time then I'll do it. I like baseball. I am a White Sox fan. Every decision does not have to be political, or about JR, or with the thought "the owner of this team is ass backwards." Will that stuff factor in? Definitely. If they don't show any level of activity or interest during the season, then it'll reflect negatively. But I am there to see baseball, to see the White Sox players first and foremost, so I'll give 'em a shot.

So I'm saying I agree with you fire and brimstone guys, and I can understand the level of disgust and feeling of abandonment of older fans who've waited forever (I'm 21). But even if we all shout at the top of our lungs, the team's macro-level infastructure is not going to change. So I am going to just deal with it, and make the best of the situation, even though I will still be extremely critical of the team. That is my stance anyway.

well said, wow....you must be a writer or a journalist :D:

white sox bill
02-01-2004, 03:50 PM
Apologies for neot reading ALL posts, but I find it amusing that we as die hard Sox Fans can rip out team inside and out to shreads, call it classless whatever..

But if a cub fan were to carry on like this, we would defend our team to death..hypocritcal?

voodoochile
02-01-2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by white sox bill
Apologies for neot reading ALL posts, but I find it amusing that we as die hard Sox Fans can rip out team inside and out to shreads, call it classless whatever..

But if a cub fan were to carry on like this, we would defend our team to death..hypocritcal?

Honest. It's the same thing as calling someone an ethnic slur. If the two people are the same race, it is okay, but if one of them is a different race than the one he slurs there is trouble brewing.

It's also different to say, "I really don't understand the direction (my favorite team) is going," than to say, "What's up with your loser team?" Honest criticism isn't shouted down, it's the troll's who get bit both here and in the real world...

beckett21
02-01-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
THAT'S IT - RIGHT THERE.

Fire JM at the break and this team comes out fighting - maybe.

Maybe we don't get smoked in Minnesota. Maybe we don't lose an extra half dozen games down the stretch. Maybe...

That is all well and good. Don't count me as a staunch Manuel supporter, the guy was pretty much a stiff.

But I will use the same argument here as I do for all the Bear-loving Angelo apologists...the manager can only take you so far. If you have donkeys instead of horses, well.....

We laid an egg last year against the Twinkies when it counted...blame it on Manuel if you wish. Eventually, the higher-ups have to take accountability. KW has chosen to live and die with "his guys"--if not by choice, by force. He has had time to put his stamp on this team. This is his make or break year IMO. But we have the same "core" of guys who laid down at the end of last year, when we still had a chance. At some point, the players have to motivate themselves. If they can't, then you have the wrong players.

Brian26
02-01-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
Ya know, maybe you guys should stop reading the paper for one thing. If you weren't there for the comment, you don't have anything to say. And btw every year, IT IS THE FANS WHO BRING UP THE CUBS AT SOXFEST. It happens every year. And because of this the Sox have felt that is one of Sox fans passions---hating the Cubs.

Preach on.

The audience member brought up the question. When it's taken out of context, it looks ridiculous. Ozzie was only responding to the crowd.

Some of the people on this board need to get out of the house once in awhile and experience the real world. Anyone who was at the Fest knows what was talked about, and I have to admit that I didn't mind what I heard. Kenny did a hell of a job of defending himself and the organization.

Too bad you guys couldn't be there to hear it for yourselves. Keep listening to the drivel from the Cubune.

ode to veeck
02-01-2004, 04:39 PM
If it wasn't for the fact that the White Sox are in the AL Central, we'd have nothing left to cheer for come June except for the Cubs to lose.


we've always got the crosstown series to root for the annual Sox thrash of the Flubs

Brian26
02-01-2004, 04:44 PM
Hawk brought up a good point today after some Scrub fan came up to the mic and said the Cubs would win the series. He said, "you're doing the easy part right now." (ie Talking). Let's see what happens this season. The Scrubs look good on paper, but we looked pretty good last year too.

DrCrawdad
02-02-2004, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
This is too much to take. I open my paper today and find the following quote "I think the fans just go [to Wrigley Field] to party.....Don't get me wrong, Dusty [Baker] is a friend, but they don't go there to watch baseball." ...Here we are at SoxFest, and the manager is taking shots at the Cubs...While many of you out there may not have any friends who are Cub fans - I do. This organization is almost getting impossible to defend.

My point to follow may have been mentioned already, but I just started viewing this thread.

Bear in mind that what Ozzie said isn't really much different than what Dusty said at Cubbie Infection 2004.

Baker said the most amazing thing he saw in his first season managing in Chicago was "all the people I saw staggering home after games. That was amazing.

"Seven or eight people, locked arm in arm sometimes, holding each other up. Those people have a good time.

"This town has the best time I've ever seen people have on a daily basis, and the weather doesn't stop them at all. People don't complain about it. I find that pretty amazing." - Chicago Cubune.

Northside fan
02-02-2004, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
My point to follow may have been mentioned already, but I just started viewing this thread.

Bear in mind that what Ozzie said isn't really much different than what Dusty said at Cubbie Infection 2004.

Puhhhhhleeeease! Yeah, I'm sure the 40,000 fans that packed Wrigley during the stretch run, sat in 45 degree weather in October, stood up for every pitch and boo'd Bartman to no end in game 6 were only there to party.

Dusty has always said that Cubs fans are in to the game like no fans he has ever seen and he could only imagine what would happen should they win the World Series. Ozzie is a loud mouth, if you can't see that, just wait until Frank has him hanging by his ankles in his locker stall after Ozzie pops off one too many times.

Frank= HOF
Ozzie= envious of Frank and now is his boss.
Translation= ugly situation.

DrCrawdad
02-02-2004, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Northside fan
Puhhhhhleeeease! Yeah, I'm sure the 40,000 fans that packed Wrigley during the stretch run, sat in 45 degree weather in October, stood up for every pitch and boo'd Bartman to no end in game 6 were only there to party.

Dusty has always said that Cubs fans are in to the game like no fans he has ever seen and he could only imagine what would happen should they win the World Series. Ozzie is a loud mouth, if you can't see that, just wait until Frank has him hanging by his ankles in his locker stall after Ozzie pops off one too many times.

Frank= HOF
Ozzie= envious of Frank and now is his boss.
Translation= ugly situation.

Hey, I didn't say that Cubbie fans go to The Shrine just to get wasted. It was the dope who manages your team, philosopher king Dusty Baylor who said it. Go take your complaint up with the most over-rated manager in baseball, Dusty!

The point is that your manager virtually the same thing. And if you want to talk about loud-mouths then let's talk about the stupid things that Dusty has said.

1. Black & Latino players can take heat better than whites.
2. Blamed Bartman for the playoffs loss.
3. Whined like a baby about the Sox celebrating a win.

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure The Philosopher Dusty said many more inane things. But oh how the media loves and giggles at all the feces that spews out of Dusty's toothpick encrusted mouth.

http://homepage.mac.com/dcrosby/.Pictures/Cubfan03.jpg

Northside fan
02-02-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
[B]Hey, I didn't say that Cubbie fans go to The Shrine just to get wasted. It was the dope who manages your team, philosopher king Dusty Baylor who said it. Go take your complaint up with the most over-rated manager in baseball, Dusty!

The point is that your manager virtually the same thing. And if you want to talk about loud-mouths then let's talk about the stupid things that Dusty has said.

1. Black & Latino players can take heat better than whites.
2. Blamed Bartman for the playoffs loss.
3. Whined like a baby about the Sox celebrating a win.

This is just off the top of my head. I'm sure The Philosopher Dusty said many more inane things. But oh how the media loves and giggles at all the feces that spews out of Dusty's toothpick encrusted mouth.

And if the media printed the entire story instead of just the stuff you read in the paper you would know Dusty said that Cubs fans were the best he has ever been around. I would not expect you to type it even if you read it. You would simply type the things that made Cubs fans look the worst. But lets get to the heart of the matter. Ozzie Gullien is a punk and a hypocrite who should just keep is yapper shut. This is the same guy who told Pudge to sign with the Cubs because they have GREAT FANS, hence the hypocrite comment. Furthermore, he basically told Frank he is a cancer and he won't put with his act, only to say this weekend he expects him to be the team MVP. He talks out both sides of his mouth and if I can read him this easily, what do you think the players read on him is? Frank is the scape goat and all he has done is put a HOF career together.

KingXerxes
02-02-2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Wsoxmike59
Conversely don't 99% of the cub fans beat the attendance argument to death?? That's all I get from the stereotypical ignorant cub fans I hear from on a daily basis. Oh yeah....and what a piece of crap our ballpark is.

It's just us defending our team and our turf against personal attacks by these trendy cub fans. That's all it is.....no more no less.

Again - I have no problem with fans getting on each other about their alligiences to whichever team they cheer for (within reason of course), that is the essence of being a fan. When the management of the ballclub takes it on it is a very bad sign.

SEALgep
02-02-2004, 10:22 AM
Some people may think Ozzie is classless, but at Sox Fest, he proved anything but. He was funny, charasmatic, and took the fans seriously. Even with the PR guys pushing fans, "Only one signature!" Ozzie said no, no I'll sign two. So I got a ball and a picture signed. At the seminar with Hawk, DJ, Kenny, and Ozzie, Ozzie had the crowd going. He was particular hilarious when talking about Fisk in left field, and Hawk who had put him there. After the seminar, Kenny and him signed autographs. Kenny had to go, but Ozzie stayed the entire time, signing autographs and taking pictures until every single person was satisfied. You can say he did to just gain people on his side, but that's not the case. He is really a genuine guy. And regardless if the fans notice it or not, the players will. And if the players respond from it, which seems to be the tone from the players at the fest, then our team should be in good shape.

DrCrawdad
02-02-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Northside fan
And if the media printed the entire story instead of just the stuff you read in the paper you would know Dusty said that Cubs fans were the best he has ever been around. I would not expect you to type it even if you read it. You would simply type the things that made Cubs fans look the worst. But lets get to the heart of the matter. Ozzie Gullien is a punk and a hypocrite who should just keep is yapper shut. This is the same guy who told Pudge to sign with the Cubs because they have GREAT FANS, hence the hypocrite comment...

Yeah, well your dope also just recently made that comment about drunken Cubbie fans. Deal with it!

At the start you claimed to come here to post purely about baseball. But from what I've read you've continually been here boasting about the Cubbies and putting down the Sox. Go post your boasts about the Cubbies and Cubbie fans and pithy put-downs of the Sox somewhere else.

http://homepage.mac.com/dcrosby/.Pictures/Cubs_Suck.gif

SEALgep
02-02-2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Again - I have no problem with fans getting on each other about their alligiences to whichever team they cheer for (within reason of course), that is the essence of being a fan. When the management of the ballclub takes it on it is a very bad sign.

Kenny wasn't in attack mode, the fans were bashing him and put him against the wall. If fans are being unreasonable in their questions, how can he give a legitimate response? He even stated that the fans are passionate, as is he. He knows the fans want a winner, but it's his job to determine the best way to go about it with our resources. Fans may not like all the moves, but going to the mike and just criticize without giving him a fair chance to explain why certain things happen is wrong. You don't have to agree with him, but we should at least show respect. And even with all this crap being thrown at him, he still was able to reasonably keep his cool. But to say that Kenny verbally attacked the fans is inaccurate.

voodoochile
02-02-2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Yeah, well your dope also just recently made that comment about drunken Cubbie fans. Deal with it!

And go post your boasts about the Cubbies and Cubbie fans somewhere else.

http://homepage.mac.com/dcrosby/.Pictures/Cubs_Suck.gif

To some extent I agree. This is a Sox fan forum and if someone doesn't like the things said about a different team, then that is their problem to deal with. I don't agree that all the flubbie fans are drunken bums, but this is the wrong place to be debating it, period.

KingXerxes
02-02-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Kenny wasn't in attack mode, the fans were bashing him and put him against the wall. If fans are being unreasonable in their questions, how can he give a legitimate response? He even stated that the fans are passionate, as is he. He knows the fans want a winner, but it's his job to determine the best way to go about it with our resources. Fans may not like all the moves, but going to the mike and just criticize without giving him a fair chance to explain why certain things happen is wrong. You don't have to agree with him, but we should at least show respect. And even with all this crap being thrown at him, he still was able to reasonably keep his cool. But to say that Kenny verbally attacked the fans is inaccurate.

Where did I say that Kenny Williams verbally attacked fans?

My point in starting this thread was primarily to point out that it now appears the front office is going back to the "Hey! We're not the Cubs" routine which only serves to reduce the appeal of the White Sox organization by making them look petty and jealous. It's not the way to go.

DrCrawdad
02-02-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
To some extent I agree. This is a Sox fan forum and if someone doesn't like the things said about a different team, then that is their problem to deal with. I don't agree that all the flubbie fans are drunken bums, but this is the wrong place to be debating it, period.

I don't agree that ALL Cubbie fans are drunken slobs either. However what Ozzie said is very similiar to what Dusty "The Philosopher King" just recently said.

It's one thing for Sox fans to slam Ozzie and the White Sox. IMHO it's entirely different for a Cubbie fan to be here blasting Ozzie, the Sox and then to top it off boast about the Cubbies. If he wants to boast about his Cubbies, go take that somewhere else.

Northside fan
02-02-2004, 10:52 AM
[i]Originally posted by DrCrawdad.

At the start you claimed to come here to post purely about baseball. But from what I've read you've continually been here boasting about the Cubbies and putting down the Sox.

Would calling Frank Thomas a HOF be a put down of the Sox? Would calling Sox fans passionate and I appreciate their zeal for this rivalry be a put down? Sure, I have said Williams is an idiot and Guillen is a loud mouth. Some of your own fans feel the same way. Also, I started a thread last week advising that KW was going to be on the Cubs flagship and even got a thank you for it. I also told hangar18 I would buy him a beer should we ever meet at a game. You seem to have the problem crawdad, not me.

DrCrawdad
02-02-2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Northside fan
Would calling Frank Thomas a HOF be a put down of the Sox? Would calling Sox fans passionate and I appreciate their zeal for this rivalry be a put down? Sure, I have said Williams is an idiot and Guillen is a loud mouth. Some of your own fans feel the same way. Also, I started a thread last week advising that KW was going to be on the Cubs flagship and even got a thank you for it. I also told hangar18 I would buy him a beer should we ever meet at a game. You seem to have the problem crawdad, not me.

Here try this, go on some Cubbie internet talk forum. Identify yourself as a Sox fan and then proceed to call Dusty an loud-mouth moron and then talk up the Sox. See how that is greeted. I can tell you this, without a doubt you will be attacked. Heck, if you're identified as a Sox fan ANY critique of the Cubbies will get you a round of personal attacks. Unless I'm mistaken, I have not attacked you personally.

I have no problem at all with Cubbie fans posting here. However when Cubbie fans boast about the Cubbies and put-down the Sox they shouldn't be surprised when they it's not greeted with enthusiam 'round here.

Take Grobber as an example. Grobber will talk about his Cubbies but he doesn't get his feelings hurt when his comments get challenged.

It's one thing for Sox fans to slam Ozzie and the White Sox. IMHO it's entirely different for a Cubbie fan to be here blasting Ozzie, the Sox and then to top it off boast about the Cubbies.

Northside fan
02-02-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
[B]Here try this, go on some Cubbie internet talk forum. Identify yourself as a Sox fan and then proceed to call Dusty an loud-mouth moron and then talk up the Sox. See how that is greeted. I can tell you this, without a doubt you will be attacked.

I would say it depends if you started the thread or not. If you went to a Cubs forum and STARTED a thread that way then you are asking for a verbal assault. However, if you were mearly jumping in on a topic and voiced an opinion shared by many Cubs fans, I would like to think you would not have a problem. If you tell me MacPhail is a dope and Don Baylor(when he was the manager) is a clueless hack, I would say you're right.

voodoochile
02-02-2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Northside fan
I would say it depends if you started the thread or not. If you went to a Cubs forum and STARTED a thread that way then you are asking for a verbal assault. However, if you were mearly jumping in on a topic and voiced an opinion shared by many Cubs fans, I would like to think you would not have a problem. If you tell me MacPhail is a dope and Don Baylor(when he was the manager) is a clueless hack, I would say you're right.

Okay, lets back up a minute. I am stepping in officially and telling you that Dr.C is correct. I have no desire to bring out the heavy moderator weapons, so leave it at that.

You can talk baseball. You can agree with other fans here on the sox problems. You can even talk about those problems themselves, but defending the flubbie fans is not going to happen on this message board. The good Dr. is correct. There are forums for that stuff. This isn't one of them.

Northside fan
02-02-2004, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
[B]Okay, lets back up a minute. I am stepping in officially and telling you that Dr.C is correct. I have no desire to bring out the heavy moderator weapons, so leave it at that.

You can talk baseball. You can agree with other fans here on the sox problems. You can even talk about those problems themselves.

Voodoo, I thought that is what I have been doing all along. Have I crossed the line? If so, please tell me where I did and I'll be sure not to again.

voodoochile
02-02-2004, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Northside fan
Voodoo, I thought that is what I have been doing all along. Have I crossed the line? If so, please tell me where I did and I'll be sure not to again.

Just let the flubbie bashing roll of your back and ignore it. I agree with you to some extent that the flubbie/fan bashing is over the top at times, but hey it IS a White Sox board.

I don't have a problem with your behavior in general. Just ignore the flubbie haters and you won't have an issue here. If you really want to talk flubbie baseball with people who aren't haters, you should do it elsewhere and let the people who want to talk with you from this site find you.

DrCrawdad
02-02-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Just let the flubbie bashing roll of your back and ignore it. I agree with you to some extent that the flubbie/fan bashing is over the top at times, but hey it IS a White Sox board.

I don't have a problem with your behavior in general. Just ignore the flubbie haters and you won't have an issue here. If you really want to talk flubbie baseball with people who aren't haters, you should do it elsewhere and let the people who want to talk with you from this site find you.

Take VIC as an example. He's a big time Cubbie fan and he's posted here for years. He's often defended the Cubbies, IIRC it's been mainly about comments about the Cubbies player though. Anyway when he's done that though VIC doesn't include slams on the Sox. Which I think makes his points much less incendiary.

KingXerxes
02-02-2004, 04:43 PM
It is now obvious to me that the White Sox have undertaken a conscious and very smarmy "We're not the Cubs!" approach to this season. The more Harrelson speaks - the more stupid he sounds.

:hawk

"The Cubs choked last year against Florida...........yessir - they really choked............We were the best team out there last year........yessir - the best team............Willie Harris was forced to bunt everytime up by Jerry Manuel...........yessir - Jerry Manuel.......Did I tell you Florida won because of one of the biggest chokes ever last year..........yessir - big choke..........You're gonna see some fire in their bellies this year.......yessir - big fire......Did I tell you that the Cubs choked?..........yessir..........."

SELL THE TEAM REINSDORF - AND WHILE YOU'RE AT IT TAKE YOUR LITTLE HAND PUPPET WITH YOU!

ChiSox21
02-02-2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Hawk brought up a good point today after some Scrub fan came up to the mic and said the Cubs would win the series. He said, "you're doing the easy part right now." (ie Talking). Let's see what happens this season. The Scrubs look good on paper, but we looked pretty good last year too.
Thats what ive been saying the whole time, everyone keeps saying the Scrubs are gonna do good next year. I dont believe it at all. They won't make the playoffs, you've heard it here first.

ChiSox21
02-02-2004, 07:19 PM
Hawk is absolutely right, i had so much optimism for the Sox in 03, and they came out and played like crap. It doesn't matter how much talent you have. What about performance. Look at the Mets last year. Weren't they supposed to be awesome. If they Cubs were 10 games under id be the happiest person alive. Not because of the fact there 10 games under, but because im the one who believed it before the season. The Cubs look good on paper. There fans believe there goin to the WS. What else is new. What happened to the Cubs in 85. What about the Sox in 84 or 01. What about the 99 Cubs. The Cubs haven't had back to back season since 1971-1972 and i dont see that streak ending any time soon.

beckett21
02-02-2004, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by ChiSox21
Thats what ive been saying the whole time, everyone keeps saying the Scrubs are gonna do good next year. I dont believe it at all. They won't make the playoffs, you've heard it here first.

I think what most people are saying here is let the Cubs worry about the Cubs, and let the Sox worry about the Sox. I am a baseball fan and enjoy debating any team, and unfortunately believe that the Cubs will be highly competetive this year. No one is denying your right to disparage the Cubs. However the underlying theme of this THREAD is that when MANAGEMENT rips on the other team, who is in another league, and just happens to reside crosstown, that reeks of insecurity. They are trying TOO HARD to compete for fans, and it looks pathetic. The Sox fans can see through the smokescreen and will root for the Sox; the casual fan, the one who "likes both teams" :?: will obviously side WITH THE WINNER. So...you wanna outdraw the Cubs...put a winner on the field. We can't control what they do. Let 'em do what they want, it should have ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on the White Sox and how they conduct business. Were we thinking about the Cubs when we should have been thinking about Detroit and Minnesota? That makes no sense. Put a winner on the field, and the rest will take care of itself. Sorry but it is true...everybody loves a winner. The hardcore fans will come either way...that is unless you alienate them by publicly embarassing the franchise through your actions and words. And blaming the fans--YOUR FANS--for not having enough money to sign free agents...yeah that stuff goes over REAL WELL :angry:

How can anyone honestly defend that???

TommyJohn
02-02-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by Northside fan
Ozzie Gullien is a punk and a hypocrite who should just keep is yapper shut. This is the same guy who told Pudge to sign with the Cubs because they have GREAT FANS, hence the hypocrite comment. Furthermore, he basically told Frank he is a cancer and he won't put with his act, only to say this weekend he expects him to be the team MVP. He talks out both sides of his mouth and if I can read him this easily, what do you think the players read on him is? Frank is the scape goat and all he has done is out a HOF career together.

:moron

I like Ozzie already!!