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View Full Version : Valentin Calls Out Thomas


RKMeibalane
01-31-2004, 09:57 AM
Why can't these guys just keep quiet? (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/311sd2.htm)

StepsInSC
01-31-2004, 10:00 AM
Trade him.

poorme
01-31-2004, 10:02 AM
I'm beginning the think the "problem" isn't Frank at all, but these other idiots.

SEALgep
01-31-2004, 10:24 AM
I don't where you guys are coming from, this needs to be said. They didn't bash Frank, they just are identifying where are team has lacked these years. We've underperformed with the talent we have. If they get together and care about each other, we could beat anyone. You think teams like the Marlins and the Panthers are accidents? Sure they have talent, but are they more talented? No, they just play well as a team, and everyone is expected to be a leader and do their job. I don't think it's unreasonable for us to do the same, but the mentality needs to change. These guys are just setting the tone for what needs to happen. Give Frank a little credit, he knows this. He's not against playing this style of ball because he knows it's the only way to win. You watch, ST these comments are a wash. Frank wants to win.

RKMeibalane
01-31-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by poorme
I'm beginning the think the "problem" isn't Frank at all, but these other idiots.

I had the same thought. Whether Frank has a bad attitude is almost irrelevant at this stage. He's not going to change. He is who he is. What I don't understand is why people feel the need to continue taking their shots at him. It's not going to make things any better.

Is Frank wrong to have completely cut himself off from the rest of the ballclub this off-season. Probably. But since he appears to be doing a nice job of preparing for the season, I don't see why the organization is so concerned about his whereabouts. If I were in KW's positioin, I never would have told the media that I couldn't find Frank. I would have said that we had talked, and that Frank assured me that he was excited about the upcoming season.

I don't advocate lying, but at the same time, it isn't always necessary to tell the truth. The media is looking for any excuse imaginable to begin their annual Frank-bashing. The Sox front-office should be aware of this by now. The players should, as well.

jabrch
01-31-2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by poorme
I'm beginning the think the "problem" isn't Frank at all, but these other idiots.

The problem isn't with Frank - it is with EVERYONE ELSE.

That's what alcoholics and drug addicts say - this isn't their problem - it is everyone else's problem.

Frank is a great player - no doubt. I just think he makes a poor teammate. That's not good when it comes from your veteran team leader.

poorme
01-31-2004, 10:35 AM
He's not a leader, never was, never will be. Why do people expect him to be?

I get the impression he comes into the clubhouse, doesn't talk to anyone, and mopes around grumbling to himself.

Who cares? The logical response would be just to ignore him and go about your business. Jeez, the guy isn't going to change, why can't people just come to grips with it?

seventytwo
01-31-2004, 10:36 AM
Valentin and his pornstache should worry more about making contact from the right side of the plate and not throwing the ball into the first row.

But I guess coming off a .222 season and making a million less than a guy who went 40 and 100 allows you a certain leeway.

Deadguy
01-31-2004, 10:38 AM
Jose's probably right, but baseball is an indivualized game based under a team concept. You can have a guy like Thomas who likes to keep to himself, and rack up personal stats, and still have a winning team. He's not hurting the team if he's simply left alone, and putting up decent numbers in the 3rd spot in the lineup. As long as he's racking up the RBIs, and still posting hugh numbers in the most unselfish stat of all (walks), I don't see why his performance should come under fire.

I don't know why the issue of him needing to be a team leader and a cheerleader always seems to become an issue, since that's obviously not in his nature to do that. Like Sandy Alomar said, Thomas can be a bit of a kid at times, but as long as you leave him alone, he'll do his job.

I'm a fan of both Valentin and Thomas, and don't think we're better off with either of them not being on the roster next season. They were the driving forces behind the 2000 division title, and they can lead us to a division title next season.

Soxfest
01-31-2004, 10:39 AM
Pretty mouthy for a below average SS hit over .240 this yr

doublem23
01-31-2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by jabrch

Frank is a great player - no doubt. I just think he makes a poor teammate. That's not good when it comes from your veteran team leader.

I see... And the good teammates go running their mouths to the media?

Ridiculous.

beckett21
01-31-2004, 10:53 AM
Sorry to say everything he said was true. Maybe he didn't need to air it out in public, but Jose really did not say anything that was untrue.

I love Thomas' production and he is a great player, no dispute there, but I have always thought that he was lacking in the "team" aspect of his game. He may be a nice guy as evidenced in other threads, but that does not make him a great teammate. I don't know him personally, so it wouldn't be right of me to categorize or criticize him. But the images he portrays on the field, the pouting, it seems counterproductive to me. He gives me the impression that he is a selfish player. Not saying necessarily he is, but that is the impression I get from his actions.

Frank has a right not to talk to the media, and I can hardly blame him. But he should at least respond to his manager and GM. Is that really too much to ask? Doesn't have to be a public statement. Valentin is not a rookie; as a SS he has to be a leader on the field, and I have no problem with him speaking up. Thomas can respond if he wants to. And Valentin's lifetime stats are irrelevant in this argument. I don't see any point to that. The guy's a veteran.

StepsInSC
01-31-2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
Sorry to say everything he said was true. Maybe he didn't need to air it out in public, but Jose really did not say anything that was untrue.

I dont think whether or not its true is whats being debated, Jose should in no way of come out with this to the media. Especially now...what has Thomas done in the past week to deserve this NOW?

Bringing up an old issue for no good reason is insane, even if it probably will be an issue in the upcoming months, you need to wait until you cross that freaking bridge.

oldcomiskey
01-31-2004, 11:01 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RKMeibalane
[BIs Frank wrong to have completely cut himself off from the rest of the ballclub this off-season. Probably.

Probably?

Oh Please. Spare me Franks feelings--He needs to grow up and accept respobsibility that hes one of the reasons we DIDNT win.. I would say it more than damned likely he is wrong

beckett21
01-31-2004, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I dont think whether or not its true is whats being debated, Jose should in no way of come out with this to the media. Especially now...what has Thomas done in the past week to deserve this NOW?

Bringing up an old issue for no good reason is insane, even if it probably will be an issue in the upcoming months, you need to wait until you cross that freaking bridge.

Well, considering the event taking place is called SOXFEST, and the fact that Thomas is an integral part of the SOX, and arguably their most important player...why is he off limits? What, should we be afraid to anger him?? His silence has spoken volumes. What has he done the past week? Who knows. But he is not at Soxfest, and maybe the fans deserve an explanation. Considering fans like all the people on this board pay his salary, is it too much for him to show up this weekend? Is that unreasonable?

And I doubt that Valentin went out of his way to make a statement on Thomas--I am sure he was just responding to some stupid question and he just reacted. Not defending him airing out dirty laundry, but really, is this such a secret??

oldcomiskey
01-31-2004, 11:07 AM
this article also said that Konerko was excused for because he is getting married----didnt he do that last year too

Deadguy
01-31-2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
[QUOTE][i]
Probably?

Oh Please. Spare me Franks feelings--He needs to grow up and accept respobsibility that hes one of the reasons we DIDNT win.. I would say it more than damned likely he is wrong

Huh? Where has he stated that he is blameless?

oldcomiskey
01-31-2004, 11:09 AM
very simple--if the read the post that I quoted from youll understand--and how come nobodys getiting on Buerhle, didnt he basically say the same thing--and besides Manos is right--Frank needs to grow up or this team is is deep dookey

Huisj
01-31-2004, 11:10 AM
I think it's funny that Valentin said Ozzie has to be that guy who talks to frank and deals with him, and he just had gone off himself about setting frank straight.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
Probably?

Oh Please. Spare me Franks feelings--He needs to grow up and accept respobsibility that hes one of the reasons we DIDNT win.. I would say it more than damned likely he is wrong

Sure, but of the guys who are on the club, how much of that blame does he shoulder? 1/25? 1/10?

Maybe he is just tired of being the only one who gets called out. How many of those other players have ever contributed Frank's 2003 stats in a single season?

CubKilla
01-31-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RKMeibalane
[BIs Frank wrong to have completely cut himself off from the rest of the ballclub this off-season. Probably.

Probably?

Oh Please. Spare me Franks feelings--He needs to grow up and accept respobsibility that hes one of the reasons we DIDNT win.. I would say it more than damned likely he is wrong

Kudos oldcomiskey. It seems to me that alot of posters here think that it's everyone else on the team that has the problem..... not Frank. As negative as I have been about this upcoming Sox season, I need some of the Sox-Koolaid being poured out to so many here at WSI.

Maybe I'll start defending Frank and JR too.

jeremyb1
01-31-2004, 11:12 AM
People really are ultradefensive of Frank around these parts. I love Frank but he seems to have some problems in the clubhouse. Maybe Jose shouldn't call him out in the press but maybe nothing else has worked.

CubKilla
01-31-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Maybe he is just tired of being the only one who gets called out. How many of those other players have ever contributed Frank's 2003 stats in a single season?

Why can't Frank finally become be a team player so that when a reporter singles him out, the Valentin's, Konerko's, and Ozzie's of the world would be defending Frank to the media and not bashing Frank to the media?

34 Inch Stick
01-31-2004, 11:13 AM
This topic was brought up last week on ESPN1000. Dan Mc Neil said that despite the public perception, Thomas is considered an excellent teammate by the other players. Contrary to the loner image he is friendly with them in the clubhouse. He was basing this assertion on discussions with close friends who are members of the team and his time spent in the locker room.

KW has done a lot of mouthing off lately about Thomas not returning calls. I promise you if KW had called Thomas before the manager search and asked him to meet with him to discuss his opinions about the various candidates Thomas would have been there. This is not unheard of to do with a star player. Even if Kenny had eventually gone with Ozzie, at least Frank would know what was going on and have felt a part of the process.

Instead he called after the hiring and the unkind statements. It appears he did not call to reassure Frank.

From all reports KW and Ozzie do not like Frank. That is really not going to change and KW has never really shown a desire for that to change. In my opinion KW has gone out of his way to be antagonistic to Frank. So why should Frank bother with KW. He is taking care of his business in Las Vegas. He knows he is on the team. He knows he will produce for his teammates when ST starts.

seventytwo
01-31-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
People really are ultradefensive of Frank around these parts. I love Frank but he seems to have some problems in the clubhouse. Maybe Jose shouldn't call him out in the press but maybe nothing else has worked.

It worked great when Konerko tried it.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
People really are ultradefensive of Frank around these parts. I love Frank but he seems to have some problems in the clubhouse. Maybe Jose shouldn't call him out in the press but maybe nothing else has worked.

Yes, because Frank has always responded well when guys like Konerko, Wells and Lee did it in the past.

And the beat goes on...

This team is rotten from the head down. Prioritizing money over results has made for a group of individuals out to protect their turf, their stats and the chance to get out of here via FA the first chance they get. What the heck, the team will lowball them anyway...

Deadguy
01-31-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
very simple--if the read the post that I quoted from youll understand--

What?

Deadguy
01-31-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Why can't Frank finally become be a team player so that when a reporter singles him out, the Valentin's, Konerko's, and Ozzie's of the world would be defending Frank to the media and not bashing Frank to the media?

That's like asking Konerko to steal 30 bases.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Why can't Frank finally become be a team player so that when a reporter singles him out, the Valentin's, Konerko's, and Ozzie's of the world would be defending Frank to the media and not bashing Frank to the media?

Konerko is an overpaid idiot. Why do you want to listen to him on the way to play baseball? This is the same "great teammate" who wouldn't take a trip to AAA ball last year to get his swing together.

Valentin is the same "great teammate" who won't bat LH exclusively even though I can hit better from the right side of the plate.

Ozzie? Puh-leeze. I will wait until he can actually prove he can manage. All he has done so far has proven he is a loud mouthed jerk, IMO.

None of these guys can carry Frank's jock as a player either...

Irishsox1
01-31-2004, 11:18 AM
I always though Frank was the type of player to only want the spot light when things were going well, but when things are going bad, don't count on the guy because he will fold under the pressure. I've never considered Frank the team leader on offense, maybe in 1994, but not since. I consider Magglio the team leader. My advice is to lay off Frank and treat him with kid gloves, like Jerry Manuel did. But, now.... this is all Ozzie Guillen's problem. He started it, and Jose V. is just backing up what Ozzie said. I actually would like to see Frank Thomas charge the mound once in his career, or run over a catcher. I feel such a move is ultimately shallow, but will help with Franks image on the team.

CubKilla
01-31-2004, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Soxfest
Pretty mouthy for a below average SS hit over .240 this yr

But Thomas needs to realize, someday soon hopefully, that with the numbers he puts up, both the fans AND THE PLAYERS look up to Frank to lead them. And when they need his leadership, what does he do? He announces to the media that he's a HR hitter and that that's what he is going to try and do from now on. Frank couldn't lead the proverbial horse to water because he's a whining, pouting, always-has-the-chip-on-his-shoulder baby. For christsakes, Thomas won't even return Ozzie or KW's phone calls. Yet everyone is to blame but Frank? A face to face or return phone call is a perfect forum for Frank to let it all out..... for himself and for the team. But Hurt just sulks and works-out and it's everyone's fault but his. Gimme a break.

pearso66
01-31-2004, 11:22 AM
Frank will put up his numbers and do well for the team. I agree that team chemistry is important, but just because Frank keeps to himself, doesn't mean he is hurting the team. You can't force team leadership on a player who has never wanted the leadership role to begin with. I agree that if he is asked to bunt or something that he should do it, but how many times do you see Barry Bonds bunt, or Sammy Sosa bunt? You don't. You dont require your top hitter to give themselves up. He is paid to drive in the runs. Let him do it. He has proved over the years that he is very capable in that area. If Frank had done somethign wrong, I would admit it, and yeah not calling KW back was wrong, but it doesnt need to be stated out in the open. The media always downs Frank, with no reason. Him and Manuel got into an argument a few years ago. Who cares, that should be left inside the clubhouse and not out for everyoen to see. Frank will get done what needs to be done. If you guys think for one second that he doesn't care about winning, you're wrong. And if you've noticed in the past as i have, when Frank is on, the team is winning. Just let him do his own thing, and it will get done.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
But Thomas needs to realize, someday soon hopefully, that with the numbers he puts up, both the fans AND THE PLAYERS look up to Frank to lead them. And when they need his leadership, what does he do? He announces to the media that he's a HR hitter and that that's what he is going to try and do from now on. Frank couldn't lead the proverbial horse to water because he's a whining, pouting, always-has-the-chip-on-his-shoulder baby. For christsakes, Thomas won't even return Ozzie or KW's phone calls. Yet everyone is to blame but Frank? A face to face or return phone call is a perfect forum for Frank to let it all out..... for himself and for the team. But Hurt just sulks and works-out and it's everyone's fault but his. Gimme a break.

Okay, show me where anyone said that Frank is blameless. Then show me where anyone said "Everyone is blameless but Frank."

Seems that Frank doesn't often offer his comments to the media unless asked. Then he seems to be to blunt for his own good.

Pssst... Frank was right about the homeruns too... Get over it...

beckett21
01-31-2004, 11:24 AM
Like it or not, fair or not, Thomas is held to a higher standard. Goes along with the territory as a former MVP and HOF career. Personally I can't stand to see someone who makes so much $$$ whining and moaning all the time. Cry me a river. Pay me $10 million, you can call me ANYTHING you want. The guy is a primadonna. I WISH I had his problems.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
Like it or not, fair or not, Thomas is held to a higher standard. Goes along with the territory as a former MVP and HOF career. Personally I can't stand to see someone who makes so much $$$ whining and moaning all the time. Cry me a river. Pay me $10 million, you can call me ANYTHING you want. The guy is a primadonna. I WISH I had his problems.

Ah, but a talented primadonna. Lest we forget. A very talented primadonna.

Maybe they should start treating their superstars like oh I don't know... superstars see what happens.

When is the last time this team actually said something good about Frank in public?

CubKilla
01-31-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Konerko is an overpaid idiot. Why do you want to listen to him on the way to play baseball? This is the same "great teammate" who wouldn't take a trip to AAA ball last year to get his swing together.

Valentin is the same "great teammate" who won't bat LH exclusively even though I can hit better from the right side of the plate.

Ozzie? Puh-leeze. I will wait until he can actually prove he can manage. All he has done so far has proven he is a loud mouthed jerk, IMO.

None of these guys can carry Frank's jock as a player either...

What bearing does any of the above have on Frank becoming the teamleader? All of the above are reasons why Frank SHOULD BE the team leader. But all of the above are seen more as team leaders by both the media AND fans thanFrank ever has been. I'm just saying it's time for Frank to put all the petty BS aside and start LEADING THIS TEAM..... they're gonna need it this season. Could the fact that 2 of the 3 being the vocal team leaders since 2000 have anything to do with the result of every season since then?

CubKilla
01-31-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, show me where anyone said that Frank is blameless. Then show me where anyone said "Everyone is blameless but Frank."

Every thread even remotely critical of Frank Thomas.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
What bearing does any of the above have on Frank becoming the teamleader? All of the above are reasons why Frank SHOULD BE the team leader. But all of the above are seen more as team leaders by both the media AND fans thanFrank ever has been. I'm just saying it's time for Frank to put all the petty BS aside and start LEADING THIS TEAM..... they're gonna need it this season. Could the fact that 2 of the 3 being the vocal team leaders since 2000 have anything to do with the result of every season since then?

HELLOOOOOO! They got to be team leaders by bashing on Frank. So Frank gets ripped for not responding in kind and thus gets dogged by the media and the haters.

How about we start assigning team leaders by how they play the game instead of how loud they can rip on their better teammates when the microphones and cameras are running.

Deadguy
01-31-2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Irishsox1
I actually would like to see Frank Thomas charge the mound once in his career, or run over a catcher. I feel such a move is ultimately shallow, but will help with Franks image on the team.

Who cares about that? I don't want to see Thomas charge the mound and get suspended for 3-5 games. That would hurt the team. I don't care whether Thomas is soft or not, I just want him to drive in runs and post a high OBP. Baseball's a non-cantact sport and Thomas isn't paid to live up to some violent brute-type image that just isn't in his nature to be.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Every thread even remotely critical of Frank Thomas.

What? Too funny. I do think that Frank is one of the smallest problems we have to worry about, but even his staunchest defenders admit he is a head case. All we ask is that people judge him by his actions on the field and not off of it...

Paulwny
01-31-2004, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
What bearing does any of the above have on Frank becoming the teamleader? All of the above are reasons why Frank SHOULD BE the team leader. But all of the above are seen more as team leaders by both the media AND fans thanFrank ever has been. I'm just saying it's time for Frank to put all the petty BS aside and start LEADING THIS TEAM..... they're gonna need it this season. Could the fact that 2 of the 3 being the vocal team leaders since 2000 have anything to do with the result of every season since then?

It may not be in Frank's nature to be a team leader. Baines was never a team leader, I also doubt Maggs could ever be a team leader.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Who cares about that? I don't want to see Thomas charge the mound and get suspended for 3-5 games. That would hurt the team. I don't care whether Thomas is soft or not, I just want him to drive in runs and post a high OBP. Baseball's a non-cantact sport and Thomas isn't paid to live up to some violent brute-type image that just isn't in his nature to be.

Can you see the haters the next day?

:Hater1: Man, did you see the wussy way Frank charged the mound? I mean he barely got in a shot before the other 8 guys tackled him. Didn't look much like a tight end on that play.

:H2: Yeah, and to think, he already had 2 Homeruns at that point in the game. If he hadn't charged the mound and gotten ejected, he might have hit more. He is not a team player.

:H1: You are so right. Man, why can't we have more great players like Paulie and Valenin. Man if not for that stupid SS and his glove, Paulie would have had 3 singles yesterday instead of 3 DP's.

:H2 That's Frank's fault too. If he wouldn't take so many walks, Paulie wouldn't hit into so many DP's.

beckett21
01-31-2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Ah, but a talented primadonna. Lest we forget. A very talented primadonna.

Maybe they should start treating their superstars like oh I don't know... superstars see what happens.

When is the last time this team actually said something good about Frank in public?

I don't think anyone questions his talent. There are a lot of parallels with the Barry Bonds situation. It is just hard to expect any sympathy from the blue-collar fans. Pouting millionaires do not lend themselves to pity.

There is obviously a rift with management, but if I am not mistaken he is a favorite of JR, or at least they have mutual respect. I am curious to see what happens between Frank and Ozzie this year...if the clubhouse divides, the team is sunk for sure. Hmmm, maybe Frank IS better off keeping his mouth shut...

CubKilla
01-31-2004, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Can you see the haters the next day?

:Hater1: Man, did you see the wussy way Frank charged the mound? I mean he barely got in a shot before the other 8 guys tackled him. Didn't look much like a tight end on that play.

:H2: Yeah, and to think, he already had 2 Homeruns at that point in the game. If he hadn't charged the mound and gotten ejected, he might have hit more. He is not a team player.

:H1: You are so right. Man, why can't we have more great players like Paulie and Valenin. Man if not for that stupid SS and his glove, Paulie would have had 3 singles yesterday instead of 3 DP's.

:H2 That's Frank's fault too. If he wouldn't take so many walks, Paulie wouldn't hit into so many DP's.

You're probably right :D:

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
I don't think anyone questions his talent. There are a lot of parallels with the Barry Bonds situation. It is just hard to expect any sympathy from the blue-collar fans. Pouting millionaires do not lend themselves to pity.

There is obviously a rift with management, but if I am not mistaken he is a favorite of JR, or at least they have mutual respect. I am curious to see what happens between Frank and Ozzie this year...if the clubhouse divides, the team is sunk for sure. Hmmm, maybe Frank IS better off keeping his mouth shut...

One of my flubbie fan buddies is convinced that this is exactly what will happen this year. Ozzie's constant harping will ruin the clubhouse by mid-May and the team will win 65 games.

beckett21
01-31-2004, 11:40 AM
The way it looks, the clubhouse may not be big enough for the two of them. Scary thought.

StepsInSC
01-31-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
Pouting millionaires do not lend themselves to pity.

Hmmm, maybe Frank IS better off keeping his mouth shut...

HAS HE DONE EITHER OF THOSE THINGS RECENTLY?

Sheesh.

beckett21
01-31-2004, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
HAS HE DONE EITHER OF THOSE THINGS RECENTLY?

Sheesh.

:?:

Not returning phone calls from your manager and GM is not pouting? :?:

StepsInSC
01-31-2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
:?:

Not returning phone calls from your manager and GM is not pouting? :?:

Not returing phone calls from you manager could be caused by pouting.

Don't let a possible cause and effect lead you to believe its the only cause for that effect.

34 Inch Stick
01-31-2004, 12:01 PM
Frank was not the only one who didn't like Ozzie's constant chatter back when they were players. He annoyed quite a few people.

I have a feeling Ozzie was believing the stories that he was some fan favorite that we would welcome back with open arms. I think he was shocked to find that was not true yesterday. Maybe now he will realize that he is not going to get it done on charisma alone. He will also learn that if he wants to get in a popularity contest with Frank, he will lose.

StepsInSC
01-31-2004, 12:07 PM
This is obvious but a thought I had (yes, they are rare I know)

Not everyone is motivated the same way. After 13 years in the bigs I think its obvious Frank isn't motivated in the media-friendly 'hug your manager, love your teammates, and be do your best for the team' sort of way. Some people need cold hard spite. I would like to read his silence as that he's fuming over this criticisms and channeling them into his training (which from that article that was posted a couple weeks ago seems like a possibility) and that when the season comes he's going to whip major ass and shove it down Guillen's throat, and any of the naysayers.

I don't care if it is caused out of spite for his manager, putting up numbers is putting up numbers.

But not everyone reacts the same way to criticism. Some might chat over coffee about it and then see it as constructive criticism and try to work harder, others might just get pissed off but channel that anger into ripping the mother****ing cover off the ball. Frank, seems more inclined to do the latter.

beckett21
01-31-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
This is obvious but a thought I had (yes, they are rare I know)

Not everyone is motivated the same way. After 13 years in the bigs I think its obvious Frank isn't motivated in the media-friendly 'hug your manager, love your teammates, and be do your best for the team' sort of way. Some people need cold hard spite. I would like to read his silence as that he's fuming over this criticisms and channeling them into his training (which from that article that was posted a couple weeks ago seems like a possibility) and that when the season comes he's going to whip major ass and shove it down Guillen's throat, and any of the naysayers.

I don't care if it is caused out of spite for his manager, putting up numbers is putting up numbers.

But not everyone reacts the same way to criticism. Some might chat over coffee about it and then see it as constructive criticism and try to work harder, others might just get pissed off but channel that anger into ripping the mother****ing cover off the ball. Frank, seems more inclined to do the latter.

You are correct in saying that not everyone is motivated in the same way, and that everyone reacts differently to criticism. To his credit, he seems to be working out like a man on a mission. Hopefully you are correct in your conclusion. He seems to be motivated by anger. Whatever makes him tick, fine.

However, if one of my employees refused to answer my phone calls, that would not be tolerated. Inexcusable. He doesn't owe the media anything, but the people who pay his salary, who BTW did not invoke a diminished skills clause (not to open a new can o' worms here), well I think they at least deserve the courtesy of a reply. The fact that this is all public knowledge is not necessarily fair, but it is what it is. He doesn't have to be a leader if he doesn't want to, some people are not wired that way; but he can lead by example, rather than being seen in the dugout pouting because he is DHing and not playing the field. His body language speaks for him. So you can understand how people would percieve him as a malcontent. He does nothing to dispell that notion.

Man Soo Lee
01-31-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Seems that Frank doesn't often offer his comments to the media unless asked. Then he seems to be too blunt for his own good.

Isn't that what Valentin is being vilified for in this thread? And Ozzie, KW, Konerko...

Originally posted by voodoochile
When is the last time this team actually said something good about Frank in public?

Last night:

When a young female fan wanted to know the panel's favorite Sox player, Guillen concluded by saying his was Thomas, drawing equal cheers and catcalls.

''Believe me, Frank will have an MVP year,'' Guillen said.

From Ozzie's Q & A (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040130&content_id=632225&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp) on the official site:

Frank is one of the biggest parts of my team. He was a great teammate. I've never watched a player like him--he's the best right-handed hitter I've ever watched play. I respect him as a man.

soxfan26
01-31-2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yes, because Frank has always responded well when guys like Konerko, Wells and Lee did it in the past.

And the beat goes on...

This team is rotten from the head down. Prioritizing money over results has made for a group of individuals out to protect their turf, their stats and the chance to get out of here via FA the first chance they get. What the heck, the team will lowball them anyway...

EXCELLENT POST! Those are my sentiments exactly.

I don't understand why Frank is public enemy #1 on this issue.

The White Sox need to come together as a team. It does not serve any purpose to publicy air out grievances between players and or management. Frank is not going to change, if KW and Ozzie are convinced that he does not fit into thier mold then trade him, or stop putting mutual options in his contracts.

wassagstdu
01-31-2004, 12:49 PM
The last decade has been the "Frank Thomas Era" of Sox baseball. Blame it on Reinsdorf for making it that, but it doesn't change the unhappy fact: It has been an era of underachievement. It has been a loser. He didn't show up at SoxFest? Trade HIM.

BeerHandle
01-31-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
The problem isn't with Frank - it is with EVERYONE ELSE.

That's what alcoholics and drug addicts say - this isn't their problem - it is everyone else's problem.

Frank is a great player - no doubt. I just think he makes a poor teammate. That's not good when it comes from your veteran team leader.

The problem is the media. They make Frank out to be a bad guy. Ihaven't heard anyone saying why isn't Maggs the team leader!!

RKMeibalane
01-31-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
What?

I think he was referring to the fact that I was the one who made the post. :D:

Lip Man 1
01-31-2004, 01:02 PM
Just a few observations (in no particular order...)

White Sox problems go way beyond Frank Thomas but I agree he seems to be part of the problem.

It seems Rich King did have some insight into the friction taking place in the clubhouse this past few years, as he stated in his interview.

Mark Buehrle also ripped on Frank in a story in the paper today saying he considered it "rude" that Thomas hasn't returned any phone calls. He said Don Cooper has called him a few times this off season and he (Mark) has always returned them.

I can understand the passions both sides bring to the discussion but I'm somewhat mystified by them. Frank Thomas is 35. In three years he won't be around and probably out of baseball anyway. The Sox aren't going to win anything in the next few seasons regardless so these arguements are somewhat moot don't you think?

Lip

RKMeibalane
01-31-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Can you see the haters the next day?

:Hater1: Man, did you see the wussy way Frank charged the mound? I mean he barely got in a shot before the other 8 guys tackled him. Didn't look much like a tight end on that play.

:H2: Yeah, and to think, he already had 2 Homeruns at that point in the game. If he hadn't charged the mound and gotten ejected, he might have hit more. He is not a team player.

:H1: You are so right. Man, why can't we have more great players like Paulie and Valenin. Man if not for that stupid SS and his glove, Paulie would have had 3 singles yesterday instead of 3 DP's.

:H2 That's Frank's fault too. If he wouldn't take so many walks, Paulie wouldn't hit into so many DP's.

Great post, voodoo! But it would be even funnier if it weren't so close to the truth.

Lip Man 1
01-31-2004, 01:03 PM
Beer:

With respect if the problem with Frank is the media (everyone's favorite whipping boy), then how do explain the half dozen players who have talked about problems with him over the course of his career?

Lip

RKMeibalane
01-31-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Mark Buehrle also ripped on Frank in a story in the paper today saying he considered it "rude" that Thomas hasn't returned any phone calls. He said Don Cooper has called him a few times this off season and he (Mark) has always returned them.


Don Cooper hasn't gone out of his way to make Mark look bad, either. I'm sure Buehrle would feel differently if he had.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
Isn't that what Valentin is being vilified for in this thread? And Ozzie, KW, Konerko...

When is the last time Frank ripped on one of his teammates publicly? Frank gets reamed for responding to criticizm and for ignoring criticism :?:, but he never gets ripped for criticizing. Maybe more people should take a page from Frank's book...

Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
Last night:

When a young female fan wanted to know the panel's favorite Sox player, Guillen concluded by saying his was Thomas, drawing equal cheers and catcalls.

''Believe me, Frank will have an MVP year,'' Guillen said.


And before that?

No shock that it is Ozzie. Maybe he learned that he should stop calling out publicly the players who are going to make or break his tenure as manager - at least until he has had the chance to sit down with them one-on-one.

Just curious. Does anyone know if Frank and Manuel talked during the off-season after Jerry was hired?

This wouldn't be an issue if Ozzie and Kenny had kept their big yaps shut in the first place.

Deadguy
01-31-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

I can understand the passions both sides bring to the discussion but I'm somewhat mystified by them. Frank Thomas is 35. In three years he won't be around and probably out of baseball anyway. The Sox aren't going to win anything in the next few seasons regardless so these arguements are somewhat moot don't you think?

Lip

I don't necessarilly think this is true. Unless JR relinquishes ownership of the club, Thomas will more than likely be a welcome addition to this club. There are plently of players in baseball who are 4 or 5 years older than Thomas, and are still productive. Thomas has stated that he wants to play till he is 40, and as long as he stays in shape and remains motivated, I don't see why he can't be a part of this team for the next 5 or 6 years.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Beer:

With respect if the problem with Frank is the media (everyone's favorite whipping boy), then how do explain the half dozen players who have talked about problems with him over the course of his career?

Lip

It's called the White Sox shuffle. Blame Frank so his market value gets destroyed and the team will not do anything to back Frank.

:KW
"Shut up and take it, Frank! You worthless piece of crap. Man if I could have traded you for a bag of baseballs, I would have done it, but JR made me get fair value in return. Now that I managed to halve the value of your contract, you are finally tradeable, but now JR won't let me, because your numbers are way more valuable than your contract. Hey, Paulie, you need another couple of million contract money? Whale on Frank a little more and I'll make sure we top whatever offer you get when your FA period comes up..."

Deadguy
01-31-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by wassagstdu
The last decade has been the "Frank Thomas Era" of Sox baseball. Blame it on Reinsdorf for making it that, but it doesn't change the unhappy fact: It has been an era of underachievement. It has been a loser. He didn't show up at SoxFest? Trade HIM.

BS. From 1995 until 1999, Cleveland simply had more talent than us. In anyone of those years, can you honestly say that we should have won the division, and Thomas' lack of production was at fault?

In 2001 and 2002, Thomas was injured, and then came back from a career threatening injury. We finished 13 games behind the Twins in 2002, so it's ridiculous to blame that large of a gap on one player.

2003 is the only year where you can say the team underachieved, but it had more to do with players like Koch and Konerko falling flat on their faces, than Thomas, who had like 6 GW homeruns last season. Singling him out for last year is ridiculous.

oldcomiskey
01-31-2004, 01:34 PM
I am inclined to belive that Frank is most dominating offensive force in club history----but all you Frank lovers who blame KW and Jr for Franks problems is what I have a problem with---I wont go so far to say as he was as surly as Navarro--nobody was---but heres the thing----Ozzie never singled Frank out--yet you still keep saying he did---Buehrle made a comment similar to Jose's and nobody is down on him

Why?

Jjav829
01-31-2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile

This wouldn't be an issue if Ozzie and Kenny had kept their big yaps shut in the first place.

This wouldn't be an issue if Frank had picked up a phone and let KW and Ozzie know what he was thinking.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
This wouldn't be an issue if Frank had picked up a phone and let KW and Ozzie know what he was thinking.

Why does he need to call them AFTER they publicly questioned his attitude?

Why not have them call him BEFORE that happens and THEN see how the relationship develops. I mean, Frank is having an off-season and then his bosses boss hires a new guy to be Frank's boss (one Frank has had problems with in the past) and the very first thing this new boss does is step up to the micorphone and start giving blunt answers to questions that are designed to cause a rift so the reporters have something to write about.

Now Ozzie is all, "Frank is an MVP. Frank is my man. I didn't mean he wasn't a great player." This whole thing could have been avoided but as usual the management group for the team likes to open its mouth without engaging its brain. Typical Sox...

cornball
01-31-2004, 01:51 PM
It is a shame has to put himself in this position every year. It is bad for him, the team and the fans.

Bad publicity for him and the team ...plus every spring training story will revolve around this idiot.

His has had the knack to make a positive into a negative.

gosox41
01-31-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Sorry to say everything he said was true. Maybe he didn't need to air it out in public, but Jose really did not say anything that was untrue.

I love Thomas' production and he is a great player, no dispute there, but I have always thought that he was lacking in the "team" aspect of his game. He may be a nice guy as evidenced in other threads, but that does not make him a great teammate. I don't know him personally, so it wouldn't be right of me to categorize or criticize him. But the images he portrays on the field, the pouting, it seems counterproductive to me. He gives me the impression that he is a selfish player. Not saying necessarily he is, but that is the impression I get from his actions.

Frank has a right not to talk to the media, and I can hardly blame him. But he should at least respond to his manager and GM. Is that really too much to ask? Doesn't have to be a public statement. Valentin is not a rookie; as a SS he has to be a leader on the field, and I have no problem with him speaking up. Thomas can respond if he wants to. And Valentin's lifetime stats are irrelevant in this argument. I don't see any point to that. The guy's a veteran.

Thomas may be lacking but who cares? As long as he produces on the field it's all good. He's not a Royce Clayton distraction. There are other teams that win in spite of having moody All Stars. The Cubs went far last year and Sosa is extremely selfish. Bonds is knows as a brooder. Ask Jeff Kent.

This whole Thomas thing is overhyped. Is Thomas being a friendlier guy in the clubouse going to make Jose not hit .230? DId PK slump because of Frank? Did Koch lose his fastball because Frank is moody?

It's easy to blame Frank. He's a veteran. He is physically big and looks like he could squeeze the core out of the ball. But that doesn't mean he needs to change his persona. It's not effecting his play. It's certainly not huritng the team. Anyone else who complains should be shipped out. This team needs mentally tough players not guys who point fingers.

Bob

Jjav829
01-31-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Why does he need to call them AFTER they publicly questioned his attitude?

Why not have them call him BEFORE that happens and THEN see how the relationship develops. I mean, Frank is having an off-season and then his bosses boss hires a new guy to be Frank's boss (one Frank has had problems with in the past) and the very first thing this new boss does is step up to the micorphone and start giving blunt answers to questions that are designed to cause a rift so the reporters have something to write about.

Now Ozzie is all, "Frank is an MVP. Frank is my man. I didn't mean he wasn't a great player." This whole thing could have been avoided but as usual the management group for the team likes to open its mouth without engaging its brain. Typical Sox...

Why did they need to? There are very, very few players in sports that are consulted before a manager is hired. Only the very highest echelon of players have any say so in a managers hiring. Frank shouldn't have played any role in the choice, and he didn't. Ozzie said what he said. That's what Ozzie is. I don't think he ever meant to piss Frank off, only to establish himself as the dominant presence in the clubhouse, as he should be. The only reason he had to mention Frank and not Carlos, Maggs, Crede, etc. is because he knows Frank is the only one that he may have troubles with. None of the other guys have personalities that would conflict with Ozzie. Now he is in the process of damage control, trying to be the bigger man.

All Frank had to do was pick up the phone when KW called and let him know how he felt. They could have patched things up in private, and we'd have never known about this. Same goes for Ozzie's phone calls. Instead, he took the childs way out. He gave them the silent treatment. This is like when your 8 years old and your friend takes your favorite toy in play time (or something else, work with me here...). At that young of an age, the only way you know how to deal with your friend is to ignore him because you're mad at him (that or pull his hair, I don't remember 8 years old very well). That is what Frank is doing. Rather than telling KW that he isn't very happy with the hire-allowing KW to explain why he chose Ozzie-he's choosing to just ignore him. He's going to have to deal with it eventually. He can't ignore them forever. As once ST hits, the [spit] will hit the fan. If he chose to get this over with as soon as possible, he would have avoided any bad publicity and we'd be hearing solely about the offseason training Frank is doing.

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Why did they need to? There are very, very few players in sports that are consulted before a manager is hired. Only the very highest echelon of players have any say so in a managers hiring. Frank shouldn't have played any role in the choice, and he didn't. Ozzie said what he said. That's what Ozzie is. I don't think he ever meant to piss Frank off, only to establish himself as the dominant presence in the clubhouse, as he should be. The only reason he had to mention Frank and not Carlos, Maggs, Crede, etc. is because he knows Frank is the only one that he may have troubles with. None of the other guys have personalities that would conflict with Ozzie. Now he is in the process of damage control, trying to be the bigger man.

All Frank had to do was pick up the phone when KW called and let him know how he felt. They could have patched things up in private, and we'd have never known about this. Same goes for Ozzie's phone calls. Instead, he took the childs way out. He gave them the silent treatment. This is like when your 8 years old and your friend takes your favorite toy in play time (or something else, work with me here...). At that young of an age, the only way you know how to deal with your friend is to ignore him because you're mad at him (that or pull his hair, I don't remember 8 years old very well). That is what Frank is doing. Rather than telling KW that he isn't very happy with the hire-allowing KW to explain why he chose Ozzie-he's choosing to just ignore him. He's going to have to deal with it eventually. He can't ignore them forever. As once ST hits, the [spit] will hit the fan. If he chose to get this over with as soon as possible, he would have avoided any bad publicity and we'd be hearing solely about the offseason training Frank is doing.

No, you miss my point. I wasn't saying consult Frank on the Ozzie hiring, but they could have had a better plan. If they were concerned about reporters questions (as any PR idiot would be) then they should have scripted answers to not create an issue, or they could have called Frank before the press conference and taken a few minutes to say, "Here's where I'm at. I hope you are too. Let's not let past differences dictate our future relationship."

Instead, there was no communication between Ozzie and Frank before the press conference and then things got weird before they ever had a chance to talk.

Now, whose fault is it that all of this happened? Frank who has no say in the hiring and who has probably never talked to a new manager before ST in his life or the two mopes who decided to prove they were right?

IIRC, KW had some choice words for the media at that press conferece too. What a complete joke this team is at dealing with the media and now it is having an impact on the relationship they have with the players.

I agree that Frank should have picked up a phone this off season and been big about the situation, but he didn't and part of the blame rests with Ozzie and KW.

depy48
01-31-2004, 02:19 PM
maybe valentin is trying to motivate Frank? I know that kind of stuff doesnt get Frank jumping, and running to get a captain label issued on him. But Valentin is also a leader in the clubhouse, so if anyone has any right to call out frank, it'd be Valentin. Either way, i dont think Valentin should have called Thomas out, but maybe Thomas will respond. I would like to see Thomas take on a higher leadership role.

depy48
01-31-2004, 02:22 PM
Dont get me wrong, I'm a big Thomas supporter, but i think a higher responsibility may be the answer. After all, his responsibilities are limited when he is a DH, but when his duties are increased, I.E. playing first base, he plays all around better.

jeremyb1
01-31-2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Yes, because Frank has always responded well when guys like Konerko, Wells and Lee did it in the past.

And the beat goes on...

This team is rotten from the head down. Prioritizing money over results has made for a group of individuals out to protect their turf, their stats and the chance to get out of here via FA the first chance they get. What the heck, the team will lowball them anyway...

I don't agree with that reasoning. Valentin did something that upset Frank so Jose is the one in the wrong? The attitude frequently seems to be that whatever Frank does is acceptable and everyone else needs to cater to his behavior. Frank overreacts and is unreceptive to his improve his behavior in the clubhouse and that's entirely Valentin's fault? Valentin certainly shares blame for calling out a teammate in public but how does that make Frank's clubhouse behavior and his unwillingness to listen to his teammates' calls for him to improve his behavior competely acceptable?

jeremyb1
01-31-2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It's called the White Sox shuffle. Blame Frank so his market value gets destroyed and the team will not do anything to back Frank.

This just all seems like a huge conspiracy theory to me. I can handle the fact that the media puts a spin on certain sports stars and has put a negative spin on Frank since he threatened to hold out in spring a few years back just as they've put a huge positive spin on Sosa. What I don't understand is why Frank's general manager, manager, and teammates would conspire to make him out to be a problem in the clubhouse if he's actually a great teammate. Why are Buehrle, Valentin, and Konerko conspiring against Frank to make him appear to be a poor teammate when that's not true?

PaleHoseGeorge
01-31-2004, 02:36 PM
I find it interesting that now that both Guillen (last November) and Williams (last week) have publicly disparaged Thomas, we have several Sox ballplayers doing the same. Monkey see, monkey do?

A tip of the Sox Fan cap to our own Steff for calling out Kenny at SoxFest for taking his Frank grievances public. I think this entire thread stands as testament to how stupid that was for him to do.

Finally, I'm wondering if some of you didn't overlook this wonderful jab Valentin took at Mienkiwekosxoz in the Southtown article:

"Why is it always Mientkiewicz?" he said. "It's probably because he wants to play here. He's always talking about this team."

That's great. I'm sure Gardenhire has it posted on the Twins bulletin board already. :smile:

:gardenhire
"You see guys, you see! They don't respect us! They don't respect us!"

CubKilla
01-31-2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I think this entire thread stands as testament to how stupid that was for him to do.

I feel a "showerhead" coming on

WinningUgly!
01-31-2004, 02:48 PM
Frank's probably not returning phone calls because of the way KW tried to run him out of town this off season. Williams was upset when Frank exercised his $6M player option for this year, instead of voiding the deal that will also allow Frank to do the same thing next year for $8M. Frank also has a $10M option for 2006 that the team can buy him out of for $3.5M.

It's obvious that KW & JR are pissed that Frank "forced" them to pay him another $17.5M. They "needed" Frank to decline his option to help bail them out of the financial mess they've put themselves in. It was OK for them to invoke the diminished skills clause on Frank last year, but when he exercised his player's option this year he screwed them!?!

Now they are going to do everything possible to punish Frank & make him miserable over the next season, so he'll opt out after the year, or agree to be traded. It started with the Guillen hiring. Then we watched every free agent on the team walk away & be replaced by cheaper/lesser players with the $58-64M limit in place. Who knows what was said between KW, JR, Arn Tellem & Frank when he informed them that he was going to activate his option.

I probably wouldn't be returning their damn phone calls either!

voodoochile
01-31-2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Frank's probably not returning phone calls because of the way KW tried to run him out of town this off season. Williams was upset when Frank exercised his $6M player option for this year, instead of voiding the deal that will also allow Frank to do the same thing next year for $8M. Frank also has a $10M option for 2006 that the team can buy him out of for $3.5M.

It's obvious that KW & JR are pissed that Frank "forced" them to pay him another $17.5M. They "needed" Frank to decline his option to help bail them out of the financial mess they've put themselves in. It was OK for them to invoke the diminished skills clause on Frank last year, but when he exercised his player's option this year he screwed them!?!

Now they are going to do everything possible to punish Frank & make him miserable over the next season, so he'll opt out after the year, or agree to be traded. It started with the Guillen hiring. Then we watched every free agent on the team walk away & be replaced by cheaper/lesser players with the $58-64M limit in place. Who knows what was said between KW, JR, Arn Tellem & Frank when he informed them that he was going to activate his option.

I probably wouldn't be returning their damn phone calls either!

:KW
"Maggs AND Frank off the payroll next season? And Konerko gone by the end of the next? and Buehrle and Lee gone the year after that? Oh man. I am drooling as I think of the FA signings I am going to make."

:reinsy
"Was that supposed to be in deep pink, Kenny? Get ready for another round of The Kids can play and a payroll budget of 40M. What the heck it worked in 2000 and besides, I am owed. I haven't made a dime these past few seasons. Now where did I put that price increase schedule?"

jeremyb1
01-31-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
Frank's probably not returning phone calls because of the way KW tried to run him out of town this off season. Williams was upset when Frank exercised his $6M player option for this year, instead of voiding the deal that will also allow Frank to do the same thing next year for $8M. Frank also has a $10M option for 2006 that the team can buy him out of for $3.5M.

It's obvious that KW & JR are pissed that Frank "forced" them to pay him another $17.5M. They "needed" Frank to decline his option to help bail them out of the financial mess they've put themselves in. It was OK for them to invoke the diminished skills clause on Frank last year, but when he exercised his player's option this year he screwed them!?!

Now they are going to do everything possible to punish Frank & make him miserable over the next season, so he'll opt out after the year, or agree to be traded. It started with the Guillen hiring. Then we watched every free agent on the team walk away & be replaced by cheaper/lesser players with the $58-64M limit in place. Who knows what was said between KW, JR, Arn Tellem & Frank when he informed them that he was going to activate his option.

I probably wouldn't be returning their damn phone calls either!

That seems like complete and utter speculation to me. Why sign Frank to the new deal if they didn't want to pay him?

RKMeibalane
01-31-2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
That seems like complete and utter speculation to me. Why sign Frank to the new deal if they didn't want to pay him?

They had no choice. Since Frank could make the decision on whether he wanted to return, the Sox were obligated to pay him the six million dollars once he exercised his option.

lowesox
01-31-2004, 06:00 PM
Wow, just when i think I can't like valentin any less he goes out and does something even more annoying. I find it so interesting that we're not going to trade him to Yankees. Why not? Because of his awesome .230 average? Because of his gold glove defense? OR because of the way he knows how to keep his big mouth shut?

Or maybe it's because he's SUCH a bargain at 5 million dollars and we have no need for that money at other positions.

Valentin is stupid to be so mouthy, but Williams is a complete fool for keeping him around.

jeremyb1
01-31-2004, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
That's great. I'm sure Gardenhire has it posted on the Twins bulletin board already. :smile:

Well do we have Dougie's comments on our bulletin board?

jeremyb1
01-31-2004, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Wow, just when i think I can't like valentin any less he goes out and does something even more annoying. I find it so interesting that we're not going to trade him to Yankees. Why not? Because of his awesome .230 average? Because of his gold glove defense? OR because of the way he knows how to keep his big mouth shut?

Or maybe it's because he's SUCH a bargain at 5 million dollars and we have no need for that money at other positions.

Valentin is stupid to be so mouthy, but Williams is a complete fool for keeping him around.

That's the perfect example of how NOT to evaluate a player. 1) Base your defensive assessments solely on errors and omit the player's most recent performance. 2) Limit any offensive analysis to only batting average (or RBIs or HRs) instead of more meaningful stats such as OBP and SLG. 3) Disregard the offensive strength of the players position when evaluating ofense. 4) Overemphasize character.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-31-2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Well do we have Dougie's comments on our bulletin board?

We should have posted them but I'm sure we didn't. I'm guessing nobody had any thumb tacks handy.

:jerry
"The Orland Park Jewels Osco was always out-of-stock whenever I checked. Boy, I hated shopping that store. The milk prices were outrageous, too."

RKMeibalane
01-31-2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Wow, just when i think I can't like valentin any less he goes out and does something even more annoying. I find it so interesting that we're not going to trade him to Yankees. Why not? Because of his awesome .230 average? Because of his gold glove defense? OR because of the way he knows how to keep his big mouth shut?

Or maybe it's because he's SUCH a bargain at 5 million dollars and we have no need for that money at other positions.

Valentin is stupid to be so mouthy, but Williams is a complete fool for keeping him around.

I'm not really bothered by the fact that Valentin said anything. I'm more upset by the fact that anything was said at all. Everyone knows that Frank has been quiet this off-season. There was no reason for anyone to say anything more about it until Spring Training.

I'm sure Frank either has or will find out about what was said. What he does in response is going to be interesting. I just hope he doesn't do anything foolish, because the Sox don't need anymore drama right now. Having said that, it seems like other members of the organization are doing a nice enough job of creating drama themselves.

RKMeibalane
01-31-2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
We should have posted them but I'm sure we didn't. I'm guessing nobody had any thumb tacks handy.

:jerry
"The Orland Park Jewels Osco was always out-of-stock whenever I checked. Boy, I hated shopping that store. The milk prices were outrageous, too."

Should he have said that the ice cream prices were outrageous?

:hitless

"I'm not going to get anymore ice cream this season, because Daddy isn't coaching."

soxnut
02-01-2004, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
One of my flubbie fan buddies is convinced that this is exactly what will happen this year. Ozzie's constant harping will ruin the clubhouse by mid-May and the team will win 65 games.


Yeah, he was so bad for the Marlins clubhouse

Ozzie is about having fun playing the game, and that's what it should be about. They're getting paid to play a game folks....play, have fun and win. For crying out loud, the guy has passion for the game and for the White Sox, if anyone in the clubhouse doesn't like that, then go home.

soxnut
02-01-2004, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
When is the last time Frank ripped on one of his teammates publicly? Frank gets reamed for responding to criticizm and for ignoring criticism :?:, but he never gets ripped for criticizing. Maybe more people should take a page from Frank's book...




And before that?

No shock that it is Ozzie. Maybe he learned that he should stop calling out publicly the players who are going to make or break his tenure as manager - at least until he has had the chance to sit down with them one-on-one.

Just curious. Does anyone know if Frank and Manuel talked during the off-season after Jerry was hired?

This wouldn't be an issue if Ozzie and Kenny had kept their big
yaps shut in the first place. [/B][/QUOTE]




Ozzie did not call Frank out.....Dan McNeil had the best explanation and he was right. I wish I had recorded what he had said. But everyone wants to be a lame brain on this because they need soap opera in their lives, and once again we're talking about Sox fans, who of course always like to take the negative road anyway....................

beckett21
02-01-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by soxnut
Yeah, he was so bad for the Marlins clubhouse

Ozzie is about having fun playing the game, and that's what it should be about. They're getting paid to play a game folks....play, have fun and win. For crying out loud, the guy has passion for the game and for the White Sox, if anyone in the clubhouse doesn't like that, then go home.

You obvioiusly don't remember when Ozzie called out the fans and said "Who cares about the fans?" or something to that effect back in his playing days, I think it was surrounding the strike. Sorry the exact quote escapes me, but I am sure someone here can recap what I am talking about. The guy has a history with some of the guys here, namely Thomas. This isn't Florida, totally different situation. This time, he is the captain of the ship--the buck stops with him.

I'm not crazy about Ozzie, but at this point I am willing to give him a chance. But he lost a lot of respect with inflammatory comments in the past. I am surprised so many people have embraced his return. I guess people still remember him for his glory days here. Personally I know a few Sox fans who refuse to support the team while he is in charge because of his knock against the fans. We need a MANAGER, not a cheerleader. Hopefully he can manage. But there is a history of friction with Thomas, and that is going to most likely cause problems because both guys are stubborn and hardheaded.

beckett21
02-01-2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
Wow, just when i think I can't like valentin any less he goes out and does something even more annoying. I find it so interesting that we're not going to trade him to Yankees. Why not? Because of his awesome .230 average? Because of his gold glove defense? OR because of the way he knows how to keep his big mouth shut?

Or maybe it's because he's SUCH a bargain at 5 million dollars and we have no need for that money at other positions.

Valentin is stupid to be so mouthy, but Williams is a complete fool for keeping him around.

What are our alternatives? Valentin has some pop in his bat and is capable of 20-30 HR's. Was Buddy Lee gonna do that? How about Uribe? He couldn't approach those numbers AT COORS. So unless we were bringing in Tejada, he was our best alternative. Or would you prefer a middle infield of Uribe/Harris??

oldcomiskey
02-01-2004, 11:31 AM
what comments are you talking about---this is the very essense of this thread----he singled out Maggs too and you dont hear him pouting ..
if we lose it wont be ozzies fault--it will be bacuse of too many holes---no 2b--no cf and 3 good starting pitchers wont win if you had Earl Weaver as manager

beckett21
02-01-2004, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
what comments are you talking about---this is the very essense of this thread----he singled out Maggs too and you dont hear him pouting ..
if we lose it wont be ozzies fault--it will be bacuse of too many holes---no 2b--no cf and 3 good starting pitchers wont win if you had Earl Weaver as manager

What I was referring to is the potential for Ozzie to fraction the clubhouse due to his differences with Frank. Ozzie was outspoken against the fans in the strike year '94 I believe, essentially saying "who cares about the fans" in regards to the strike. Baseball in general is still trying to recover from that fiasco. Anyone please correct me if I am wrong, like I said I don't remember his exact words and if I am wrong I apologize. But he has had friction with Thomas in the past, and that can lead to a rift in the clubhouse, guys on one side or the other.

And my position has been throughout all my comments that I believe we do not have enough talent; too many key losses from last year with unproven/untested replacements. I am not going to lay blame on Ozzie, actually. But my point is let's see him for who he really is, and not romantacize about the days of yore when he was our SS. He is a great cheerleader, no doubt. I want to see how he can handle all of the duties of a MLB manager--much different than being a bench/position coach. I am still undecided on Ozzie, and will not prejudge him as a manager. But what he did as a Marlins bench coach does not automatically make him a great manager. That was my point.

soxrme
02-01-2004, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by seventytwo
Valentin and his pornstache should worry more about making contact from the right side of the plate and not throwing the ball into the first row.

But I guess coming off a .222 season and making a million less than a guy who went 40 and 100 allows you a certain leeway.
I agree 100% with these statements Jose shut up and perform :angry:

mantis1212
02-01-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
what comments are you talking about---this is the very essense of this thread----he singled out Maggs too and you dont hear him pouting ..
if we lose it wont be ozzies fault--it will be bacuse of too many holes---no 2b--no cf and 3 good starting pitchers wont win if you had Earl Weaver as manager

One question on this... Do you mean Frank Thomas is pouting currently? How do you know that?
I mean Thomas treats himself to a quiet offseason of training, everyone else in the organization chimes in about him, and HE'S THE ONE POUTING???
Believe me, if Thomas really starts pouting, we'll know it!

I'm with you on your Ozzie comments however, I believe he will be a good spark

Man Soo Lee
02-01-2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Ozzie was outspoken against the fans in the strike year '94 I believe, essentially saying "who cares about the fans" in regards to the strike. Baseball in general is still trying to recover from that fiasco. Anyone please correct me if I am wrong, like I said I don't remember his exact words and if I am wrong I apologize.

The way I remember it, Ozzie was asked what the players would have to do to win back the fans. He answered something like, "We don't owe the fans anything but an honest effort." In the minds of sports radio hosts looking to stir up contoversy and fans looking to hold a grudge against "greedy" players, the quote was shortened to "We don't owe the fans anything."

There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical about Ozzie as manager, but I don't think this should be a factor.

beckett21
02-01-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
The way I remember it, Ozzie was asked what the players would have to do to win back the fans. He answered something like, "We don't owe the fans anything but an honest effort." In the minds of sports radio hosts looking to stir up contoversy and fans looking to hold a grudge against "greedy" players, the quote was shortened to "We don't owe the fans anything."

There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical about Ozzie as manager, but I don't think this should be a factor.

Thanks for your clarification. Like I said, I don't remember exactly what he said, and over the years memories can be inaccurate. I remember it more like your "shortened" quote, I don't remember the end of it but if that is what he said OK. Just left me with a bad taste in my mouth. My point was to the people who are already trying to deify Ozzie before he takes a step on the field as a manager. People would love just about ANYONE at this point in the immediate "post-Manuel" era. And I did say that I think it is premature to judge Ozzie--but he's no saint.

Deadguy
02-01-2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
The way I remember it, Ozzie was asked what the players would have to do to win back the fans. He answered something like, "We don't owe the fans anything but an honest effort." In the minds of sports radio hosts looking to stir up contoversy and fans looking to hold a grudge against "greedy" players, the quote was shortened to "We don't owe the fans anything."

There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical about Ozzie as manager, but I don't think this should be a factor.

I believe he also said it after a game in Toronto where the fans were throwing dollar bills on the field, and hurling hateful, racist comments at the direction of Frank Thomas. The comments were supposedely so distasteful, that Ozzie couldn't even repeat what was being yelled at Frank by the fans, off the record.

soxnut
02-01-2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
You obvioiusly don't remember when Ozzie called out the fans and said "Who cares about the fans?" or something to that effect back in his playing days, I think it was surrounding the strike. Sorry the exact quote escapes me, but I am sure someone here can recap what I am talking about. The guy has a history with some of the guys here, namely Thomas. This isn't Florida, totally different situation. This time, he is the captain of the ship--the buck stops with him.

I'm not crazy about Ozzie, but at this point I am willing to give him a chance. But he lost a lot of respect with inflammatory comments in the past. I am surprised so many people have embraced his return. I guess people still remember him for his glory days here. Personally I know a few Sox fans who refuse to support the team while he is in charge because of his knock against the fans. We need a MANAGER, not a cheerleader. Hopefully he can manage. But there is a history of friction with Thomas, and that is going to most likely cause problems because both guys are stubborn and hardheaded.


It looks like you got the real answer now about what Ozzie said. Yeah I do remember the quote and I also remember that there was more to it that what is generally reported. Ah, the good old media, always spinning it the way they want it. So, go tell your buddies who don't like Ozzie because of those comments, what was really said.

Lip Man 1
02-01-2004, 01:01 PM
Deadguy:

You are correct in your comments surrounding the reason that Ozzie made his "we don't care about the fans comment..."

Dan Helpingstein goes into detail about this in his book, "Through hope and despair..."

Lip

jabrch
02-01-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
You obvioiusly don't remember when Ozzie called out the fans and said "Who cares about the fans?" or something to that effect

If you are going to put it in quotes, you should be a bit more accurate than that. That's not fair to Ozzie. He said, "We don't owe the fans anything more than an honest effort"

Ya know what - He might just have been right. They owe their teammates, managers, coaches and owners more - but the fans - as long as they play to win, I am fine with that.

beckett21
02-01-2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by soxnut
It looks like you got the real answer now about what Ozzie said. Yeah I do remember the quote and I also remember that there was more to it that what is generally reported. Ah, the good old media, always spinning it the way they want it. So, go tell your buddies who don't like Ozzie because of those comments, what was really said.

I asked for a clarification because I openly admitted that I did not remember what he said. Again, thank you for setting the record straight...I figured someone would know what actually happened.

And no, I DON'T believe everything the media tells me...I HATE the media in this town... :angry:

Personally I will judge Ozzie for how this team performs under his direction, not on comments he made 10 years ago...I was just trying (poorly, perhaps) to illustrate a point.

BUT...if people actually believe that we have enough talent to compete with the roster we have now (which I do NOT believe)...then those same people cannot come back later and give Ozzie a free pass because he did not have "enough talent." People can't have it both ways.

Like I said, time will tell...

beckett21
02-01-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
If you are going to put it in quotes, you should be a bit more accurate than that. That's not fair to Ozzie. He said, "We don't owe the fans anything more than an honest effort"

Ya know what - He might just have been right. They owe their teammates, managers, coaches and owners more - but the fans - as long as they play to win, I am fine with that.

I openly admitted I did not recall the exact quote...anyone who does is a better man than I since it was 10 years ago. Sorry.

If anyone can actually CITE his statement, that would be best of all.

Sorry for anyone I offended--I was not intentionally trying to distort the facts, perhaps my recollection was incorrect. It was not meant to be a verbatim quote.