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GW83
01-31-2004, 03:44 AM
Not to bring up a sore subject but who was the GM who traded Sosa for George Bell?

Why was the trade made? Was there talk in the White Sox organization that maybe Sosa would never reach his potential?

TommyJohn
01-31-2004, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by GW83
Not to bring up a sore subject but who was the GM who traded Sosa for George Bell?

Why was the trade made? Was there talk in the White Sox organization that maybe Sosa would never reach his potential?

Ron Scheuler traded Sosa for Bell. They needed a DH to back
up Thomas and they basically gave up on Sosa, who was
rebelling against the Hriniak method.

michned
01-31-2004, 07:38 AM
At that time Sosa was about as raw as you can get but even then there was something special about thim. Just one of those deals where the Sox were a veteran club in need of a veteran bat that might put them over the top.

E Coast Sox Fan
01-31-2004, 07:42 AM
The Sox new knew they were giving up a great player to get Bell, but at the time we were so close to having an awesome team. If memory serves, the strike stopped that team from acheiving something special.

I saw a few games with Thomas and Bell hitting back-to-back. Wow. A pitchers nightmare. George Bell was a great hitter.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-31-2004, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by michned
At that time Sosa was about as raw as you can get but even then there was something special about thim.

Time for a reality check. All that time has proven "special" about Sammy Sosa is how a skinny Dominican could bulk up enough to hit 66 home runs. This is in stark contrast to what made him "special" back when the Sox and Rangers had him, a potential 30-30 man. That's 30 home runs and 30 stolen bases, ala Jose Canseco. The bulked up Sammy is no kind of stolen base threat and there is nothing "special" about that. How he got his bulk is what makes him "special."

Nobody knew he could bulk up like that. I wonder why?

Originally posted by michned
Just one of those deals where the Sox were a veteran club in need of a veteran bat that might put them over the top.

Yes. Sosa was a strikeout-swinging bust so the Sox traded him before the 1992 season to get somebody who could contribute *now.* As Reinsdorf himself stated at the time, new GM Ron Schueler was hired to get the Sox to "Point C." George Bell was a former MVP and a huge upgrade in the #4 spot over Robin Ventura for protecting Frank Thomas. In typical cheapskate Sox fashion, the plan was to promote reserve Dan Pasqua into the everyday rightfielder position for the 1992 season. (Are the Friends of Crash listening?)

Pasqua proved a bust as everyday rightfielder in 1992. So in typical timid Sox fashion, the Sox took a flyer on the chronically hurt Ellis Burks for right field in 1993. He paid off, batting .275 and slugging .441. Not bad for a low-risk reclamation project, one of Schueler's most successful ones. The Sox won the division and came within two victories of the World Series.

In typical stupid fashion, the Sox let Burks walk before the 1994 season. In untypical fashion, Schueler acquired slugger Julio Franco to fill the #4 hole that both George Bell and Bo Jackson had proven they couldn't fill. (Who can forget their clubhouse sniping during the '93 ALCS?) Also in untypical fashion, Schueler filled the hole in right field with a competent ballplayer, Darrin Jackson. (Are the Friends of Crash listening?)

:DJ
"Thanks for the props, PHG."

The 1994 Sox were the best ballclub Reinsdorf fielded since the winning ugly squad. Arguably they were even better. Having lost the '93 ALCS they were certainly better prepared mentally for what it takes to win in the post-season than the '83 club could have been. Then the strike came and it all became moot. The Sox owner played a key role in making it happen.

Now you know yet another reason why the Sox are cheap, timid, and stupid.

34rancher
01-31-2004, 08:42 AM
2 additonal points:
1. There was an alleged incident in the Domincan was Sosa was accused by his wife of a domestic disturbance that also prompted the Sox management to want to get rid of the free-swinging youngster for a veteran that might push them overthe top.

2. I still to this day contend it was a good "baseball" move. In '92, he hit 112 rbi's and 25 home runs (pre-steroid era, so that was a lot then), and when you consider that Sosa had 8 home runs and 25 rbi's, it help the Sox. In '93, Bell did help them to win the division. I am not sure to this day if having Sosa would have helped them to win the division then. I think that he brought a negative presence to the club house, and would not have helped.


This whole thing is just about what you need at the time. At the time we needed a veteran to try to help us win. So, we gave up youth (who we thought was trouble).

Does it really matter? I personally could care less about it. In fact, I don't care about the game anymore. Screw em all. The millions and millions are a joke. I refuse to pay five times what I paid 13 years ago when the stadium opened. It's a joke.

Huisj
01-31-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge

In typical stupid fashion, the Sox let Burks walk before the 1994 season. In untypical fashion, Schueler acquired slugger Julio Franco to fill the #4 hole that both George Bell and Bo Jackson had proven they couldn't fill. (Who can forget their clubhouse sniping during the '93 ALCS?) Also in untypical fashion, Schueler filled the hole in right field with a competent ballplayer, Darrin Jackson. (Are the Friends of Crash listening?)



I'm not sure it was so much that they let him walk as opposed to that he bolted for where the most money was, which was colorado, a team going no where at the time. It was sort of an ARod type move, not to say that he was a super great player or that it was a massively huge contract, but just that colorado offered him way more than anyone else, and there was no way the sox or any other team was going to sign him. sort of like the tigers and IRod this offseason if that deal goes through.

Lip Man 1
01-31-2004, 01:28 PM
Not defending or promoting Sammy but two points have to be made.

In 1990 Sosa was the only player in MLB to have double figures in doubles, triples, home runs, RBI's, stolen bases and outfield assists. That's pretty good don't you think? Obviously he had some talent.

Like with Cory Snyder, Sosa could not get along with hitting coach Walt Hriniak. Accxording to Snyder in his WSI Interview he never saw a coach in any organization have the kind of power that Walt did, which made the fact that the Sox eventually fired him somewhat ironic. Royals TV announcer Denny Trease also said in his WSI Interview that he couldn't understand why power hitting guys like Snyder and Sosa were constantly being told to hit singles by driving the ball up the middle.

Perhaps the fault for Sosa not realizing his potential with the Sox belongs to the hitting coach.

Lip

Lip

Lip Man 1
01-31-2004, 01:31 PM
Huisj:

In regards to Ellis Burks, the real reason as I recall for his leaving were two fold:

1. The Sox were not willing to give him a long term contract (typical)

2. Burks' wife had some very negative things to say about the Chicago school system (which surprised me because considering what Ellis was going to make you think they would send the kids to a private school)

Either way the Sox lost him and then despite the tremendous job Julio Franco did, let him walk after one year when the Sox wouldn't give him a long term deal.

Lip

Randar68
01-31-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Not defending or promoting Sammy but two points have to be made.

In 1990 Sosa was the only player in MLB to have double figures in doubles, triples, home runs, RBI's, stolen bases and outfield assists. That's pretty good don't you think? Obviously he had some talent.

Like with Cory Snyder, Sosa could not get along with hitting coach Walt Hriniak. Accxording to Snyder in his WSI Interview he never saw a coach in any organization have the kind of power that Walt did, which made the fact that the Sox eventually fired him somewhat ironic. Royals TV announcer Denny Trease also said in his WSI Interview that he couldn't understand why power hitting guys like Snyder and Sosa were constantly being told to hit singles by driving the ball up the middle.

Perhaps the fault for Sosa not realizing his potential with the Sox belongs to the hitting coach.

Lip

Lip

Yeah, Walt's teachings really hurt guys like Ventura, Thomas, et al. It's a building block, learn the strike zone, get on base, make solid contact. No, Sammy was intent from the very beginning on being a 175 pound HR hitter. Instead of listening to experienced people and learning how to be a hitter, Sammy decided to "enhance" his physical ability and take the EXACT same approach he always has. Swing from his heels and try to hit everything tot Mars. It works when you manage to gain an unfair advantage or are naturally physically dominant (Williams, Gwynn, etc all had exceptionally quick and string forearms as well as the fundamentals)...


Baseball is like the NBA. Remove the fundamental skills and replace them with flashy highlight reels. It makes Sportscenter fun to watch, but the 2-3 hour game can be excruciating.

depy48
01-31-2004, 02:26 PM
then you have to ask, would we all be Sosa supporters if he was still on the Sox? I dont know about that, i think that Sosa and Thomas would have clashed in the clubhouse, prompting the Sox to move Sosa. Either way, I like the George Bell trade too.

poorme
01-31-2004, 03:05 PM
I thought it was a dumb deal at the time and I still do. Without the steroids, sosa would have hit 45 homers/year instead of 60.

CubKilla
01-31-2004, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
In 1990 Sosa was the only player in MLB to have double figures in doubles, triples, home runs, RBI's, stolen bases and outfield assists. That's pretty good don't you think? Obviously he had some talent.

Lip

Great point but I am of the opinion that this is the best ShamME would have ever been had it not been for the steroids and cork.

Deadguy
01-31-2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by depy48
then you have to ask, would we all be Sosa supporters if he was still on the Sox? I dont know about that, i think that Sosa and Thomas would have clashed in the clubhouse, prompting the Sox to move Sosa. Either way, I like the George Bell trade too.

That's not true. Sosa and Thomas are actually very good friends. When either one is surrounded in a swirl of controversy, the other one always defends him through the media.

GW83
01-31-2004, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by E Coast Sox Fan
The Sox new knew they were giving up a great player to get Bell, but at the time we were so close to having an awesome team. If memory serves, the strike stopped that team from acheiving something special.

The strike happened in 1994. Bell was released after the 93 season.

And all this talk about Sosa being bad in the clubhouse, well Bell wasn't exactly good for the clubhouse either.

depy48
01-31-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
That's not true. Sosa and Thomas are actually very good friends. When either one is surrounded in a swirl of controversy, the other one always defends him through the media.

thanks for clearing that up, i just took a guess

Wsoxmike59
01-31-2004, 06:09 PM
I can still remember Ron Scheuler's exact quote on why the Sox traded Sosa. Scheuler called Sosa "uncoachable"!!

When Sammy hit the 66 dingers in '98 my cub fan friends used to razz me...."yeah Mike, he's uncoachable...you just can't coach a guy to HIT 66 FREAKING HR's A SEASON!!!"

Lip Man 1
01-31-2004, 08:56 PM
From Cory Snyder's Interview with WSI:

ML: I know you and Sox fans were hoping that youíd take over right field but it just didnít happen. You struggled mightily. Looking back do you have any idea why that took place. I mean you were an established big league hitter by then.

CS: "The problem was with the Sox hitting instructor, Walt Hriniak. Walt was a great guy, he worked very hard everyday but he wanted to try to change everybody to hit a certain way...head down, off the front foot, drive the ball up the middle. I wasnít used to that. It was an unnatural swing for me. I was a power guy who had some strikeouts but I drove in runs, I wasnít a line drive hitter. The Sox organization expected me to work with him. He was a lot different from Charlie Lau. Basically it was Waltís way or the highway. I didnít want to complain, I always tried to play hard and do my job and I tried very hard. Iíd take extra batting practice everyday, play anywhere the Sox wanted me to but finally in Cleveland before a game I had it out with Walt. I told him I canít hit like he wants me to. I was hitting .175 and itís the middle of the year. I just canít do it. A week later I was traded. Iíve never been with any club where the hitting instructor had that kind of power."

ML: If you look back at the video from those days, it seemed the guys who did really well with that style were the smaller players, guys like Scott Fletcher, Ozzie Guillen and Craig Grebeck.

CS: "Right. Even Robin Ventura didnít really hit Hriniakís way. It looked like he did, but he was making contact on his back foot, not his front foot. Sammy Sosa couldnít do it either. The first year Tim Raines was with the Sox he had a lot of trouble with it. It was an embarrassing spot for me. The other guys on the team Kittle, Carlton Fisk, Ron Karkovice they didnít know what to say to me. I busted my tail every day but it just wasnít working out. When they traded me, I was glad. I knew I wasnít going anywhere in Chicago."

Lip

poorme
01-31-2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1


CS: "The problem was with the Sox hitting instructor, Walt Hriniak. Walt was a great guy, he worked very hard everyday but he wanted to try to change everybody to hit a certain way...head down, off the front foot, drive the ball up the middle.

That's how Thomas USED to hit. Hriniak was OK for some guys but his inflexiblity was disastrous. Though Snyder had more problems than just Hriniak.

RKMeibalane
01-31-2004, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by poorme
That's how Thomas USED to hit. Hriniak was OK for some guys but his inflexiblity was disastrous. Though Snyder had more problems than just Hriniak.

Frank still hits off of his front foot, but he's more focused on being a "turn-and-burn" type of hitter, as opposed to going up the middle or right field. He admitted as much last season, when he said he was going to focus more on home runs.

34rancher
02-01-2004, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by Wsoxmike59
I can still remember Ron Scheuler's exact quote on why the Sox traded Sosa. Scheuler called Sosa "uncoachable"!!

When Sammy hit the 66 dingers in '98 my cub fan friends used to razz me...."yeah Mike, he's uncoachable...you just can't coach a guy to HIT 66 FREAKING HR's A SEASON!!!"

Has he ever coached?

If so, then he would know that there is a major difference between talent and being coachable. I think Frank and Sammy both are "uncoachable" Think. When was the last time either sacrificed a runner over via a bunt? Or tried to hit the ball behind the runner? Or in Sammy's case hit the cutoff man? Or in Frank's case took extra ground balls? They both have tons of talent, but they are both uncoachable, which is why between them they have a total of 4 division titles, 0 league titles, and 0 WS appearances.

Look at the teams in the Super Bowl today. They both are "TEAMS", not flashy individuals. Same thing for the teams that have won the past two World Series. The Prima Donna BS does not apply to any of these teams. I'll take the teams over the individuals right now.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-01-2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by 34rancher
...I think Frank and Sammy both are "uncoachable" Think. When was the last time either sacrificed a runner over via a bunt?

Okay, who else is laughing? Just last November we were all laughing about how silly it was for Ozzie to suggest Frank Thomas bunt. He is going to take the bat out of the hand of his best hitter? Well apparently he is not alone...

Originally posted by 34rancher
Or tried to hit the ball behind the runner?

This complaint is *far* more relevant for Mr. DP, Magglio Ordonez. He is the one who can't get the ball out of the infield or hit behind the runner, not Frank. As for Sammy, it is difficult to know where the ball might go when you're swinging from the heels every at-bat. So why are you trying to compare them?

Originally posted by 34rancher
Or in Sammy's case hit the cutoff man?

He has never hit the cut-off man and he never will. It has always been about Sammy first, second and third.

Originally posted by 34rancher
Or in Frank's case took extra ground balls?

I guess you don't remember last July when Frank was *begging* to play first base and his own manager shot him down? First base was reserved for some overpaid stiff who just happened to be a favorite of the manager.

Next question.

Originally posted by 34rancher
They both have tons of talent, but they are both uncoachable, which is why between them they have a total of 4 division titles, 0 league titles, and 0 WS appearances.

If there isn't room for the best pure hitter on your team, do you mind if I have him on mine? What we need is a manager who can accept Frank for what he is, not what he isn't. Did any of us learn anything from the example of how Chuck Tanner managed Dick Allen? The Sox weren't losers because of Chuck and Dick. They were losers for everything besides Chuck and Dick.

Originally posted by 34rancher
Look at the teams in the Super Bowl today. They both are "TEAMS", not flashy individuals. Same thing for the teams that have won the past two World Series. The Prima Donna BS does not apply to any of these teams. I'll take the teams over the individuals right now.

There is no substitute for talent. Those teams are talented in a game that necessitates teamwork 1000-times more than baseball. There is no comparison. Nothing in football matches the pitcher vs. hitter showdown that is the essential *individual* confrontation at the core of baseball.

Deadguy
02-01-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
There is no substitute for talent. Those teams are talented in a game that necessitates teamwork 1000-times more than baseball. There is no comparison. Nothing in football matches the pitcher vs. hitter showdown that is the essential *individual* confrontation at the core of baseball.

Great post. I agree 100%.

poorme
02-01-2004, 10:39 AM
I concur.

34rancher
02-01-2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Okay, who else is laughing? Just last November we were all laughing about how silly it was for Ozzie to suggest Frank Thomas bunt. He is going to take the bat out of the hand of his best hitter? Well apparently he is not alone...

I saw Major League. I say same results. But, the coach has to tell him to. As far as best hitter. Our "best " hitter doesn't hit .267. He might have been out best power hitter last year, but if the best hitter hits only 267, then we are in a lot of trouble.

This complaint is *far* more relevant for Mr. DP, Magglio Ordonez. He is the one who can't get the ball out of the infield or hit behind the runner, not Frank. As for Sammy, it is difficult to know where the ball might go when you're swinging from the heels every at-bat. So why are you trying to compare them?

The fact that we have to discuss this means that none of them are doing it enough, and that the coach needs to get in his face and tell him to. If he still does not, then he is then "uncoachable" which is what prompted this discussion in the first place.


He has never hit the cut-off man and he never will. It has always been about Sammy first, second and third.

This is where a coach steps in and tells him to. A coachable player then listens and does what the coach expects him to in the best interest of the team.

I guess you don't remember last July when Frank was *begging* to play first base and his own manager shot him down? First base was reserved for some overpaid stiff who just happened to be a favorite of the manager.

2 responses. Take your pick:
1. Improve his defense then. If I was the opposing manager, and I saw Frank Thomas at first base, then I would bunt towards him all day ala Lou Pinella in the final at bat in the '03 playoffs.

2. I think that we have about 20 other guys I would rather see at first base other than Frank. The fact that he was "begging" says how selfish he is then about what is best for the team. None of us ever want to sit down during any game. I would not respect any of them for that at all. But it is the managers job to decide who should play and who should not. Then the player should be ready at all times for when it is in the best interest of the team for them to play.

Next question.

Seriously how much time have you put into this board? You really did do a great job setting it up. I have enjoyed it tremendously.

If there isn't room for the best pure hitter on your team, do you mind if I have him on mine? What we need is a manager who can accept Frank for what he is, not what he isn't. Did any of us learn anything from the example of how Chuck Tanner managed Dick Allen? The Sox weren't losers because of Chuck and Dick. They were losers for everything besides Chuck and Dick.

Look at the people that you are talking about. Those guys are team first, me second. That is why Dick Allen is not respected more because he did not have the gaudiest of stats. I'll take a pure hitter, but I'll take someone who is an un-selfish pure hitter first.

There is no substitute for talent. Those teams are talented in a game that necessitates teamwork 1000-times more than baseball. There is no comparison. Nothing in football matches the pitcher vs. hitter showdown that is the essential *individual* confrontation at the core of baseball.

You think that Carolina or New England are the most talented this year? You think that the Fish was the most talented this year? Or that Anaheim was the most talented last year? They had something special. While I agree that football is much more team oriented, there are common traits. How many guys off of those 4 teams have you seen on a national advertising campaign for pepsi, coke, dodge, etc....? They play the game the right way. If they get a first down, they get up and play. No silly "look at me, I did what I was supposed to do". You never saw any player on the Angels or Fish act arrogant. They let the game do the talking. I'll take talent, but I will sacrifice some of that talent for players that are passionate and to quote Ozzie "play the game the right way".

The Sox last year had more players on their roster that had been All-Stars than any other team (with the exceptions of the Yanks). I saw the corpse ball that the "talent" played. It disgusted me (especially when we lost to Tampa and Detroit). So while talent makes up a small part of it, I want some pure passion.

Wsoxmike59
02-01-2004, 10:57 AM
34Rancher, that is the best baseball post I've read in quite some time. Kudo's to you for a well written and well thought out post.

BTW does your screename have anything to do with Nolan Ryan? The Ryan express is one of my alltime fav pitchers. He seemed to keep getting better with age.

Wsoxmike59

34rancher
02-01-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Wsoxmike59
34Rancher, that is the best baseball post I've read in quite some time. Kudo's to you for a well written and well thought out post.

BTW does your screename have anything to do with Nolan Ryan? The Ryan express is one of my alltime fav pitchers. He seemed to keep getting better with age.

Wsoxmike59

While the Ryan Express was truly amazing, and I have a lot of respect for him, the 34 comes from my all time fav athlete, Walter Payton.

The rancher part comes from an old place that I used to live and work hard at.

Trust me, there are a lot of people here who have come and gone who know a lot more about the game than I do or ever will. PHG and FWC (there are about 50 others too Daver) are two of those people who know tons and I respect tremendously. PHG and I just have a minor difference of opinon here. The one thinkg I know that we both agree on is that the Sox win. I also know that we would both take "winning ugly" over losing pretty.

Wsoxmike59
02-01-2004, 01:20 PM
Sammy Before (http://www.bracephoto.com/images/players/Untitled-23.jpg)

Sammy After (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/photo/photogallery/sosa500/homer/01.jpg)


And this from Rick Telander in the Sun-Times on 1/21:

Just the other day, Sosa told Cubs manager Dusty Baker how much he was looking forward to the coming season. "I'm so pumped, so hyped,'' Sosa said. "This is the first time I've started lifting weights in December.''

Maybe Sosa didn't know what he was implying with that statement, but I think many people assumed Sosa had put on his 40 or so pounds of muscle from lifting maniacally year-round.

Lip Man 1
02-01-2004, 01:25 PM
For what it's worth:

Ron Schueler was the Sox pitching coach during the late 70's.

Lip