PDA

View Full Version : Eddie DeBartolo. A look back at what Could have Been


Hangar18
01-29-2004, 04:28 PM
The current Ownership has me depressed about our Teams Fate
in the Standings and for its Existence. Seeing that the SOX have Resigned themselves to Crossing Their Fingers and HOPING Everyone on the Roster has a Career Year at the same time, Catapulting us to our 1st World Series Crown since 1917, instead of Taking Matters into our own Hands and getting/retaining the Players needed to get there, I got to thinking.

What if DeBartolo hadnt been so vocal in his desire to be the Owner of the White Sox? What if he had contained his openness to spend what it took to make the SOX Winners?
What if he Did become the new owner of the White Sox back
in 1981? How much different would things have been?
Fun to think about..............Esp knowing our Stadium
wouldve been in the South Loop. and we'd have been to
the World Series at least 3 Times since then ...........

PaleHoseGeorge
01-29-2004, 04:39 PM
I'm guessing Daver will be posting a reply about why it was *good* Reinsdorf got the Sox rather than DeBartolo. Suffice to say I disagree completely.

:bandance:

SEALgep
01-29-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm guessing Daver will be posting a reply about why it was *good* Reinsdorf got the Sox rather than DeBartolo. Suffice to say I disagree completely.

:bandance:

I wish JR had 100% ownership rather than all these other business partners that I believe are hurting our progress. JR wants to win, but he has to listen to these other dips as well.

dickallen15
01-29-2004, 04:45 PM
First of all it wasn't Eddie Debartolo who was buying the White Sox back then, it was his father. And if his father bought them, they wouldn't be here anymore.

Hangar18
01-29-2004, 04:49 PM
Im being totally serious here, I get a warm glow thinking
of what it wouldve felt like to see the SOX in a World Series,
how this Town wouldve gone Bananas :bandance:

Knowing my Dad wouldve gotten a chance to see a World
Series before he passed on, instead of him spending his
last hours, both of us being Forced to watch the bogus Oakland at Texas game on NBC because the SOX game was blacked out that afternoon.

Hangar18
01-29-2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
First of all it wasn't Eddie Debartolo who was buying the White Sox back then, it was his father. And if his father bought them, they wouldn't be here anymore.

They werent Moving Anywhere. Some owners, including the Fans here, were Opposed to that, and he guaranteed he
wasnt going to move the team. And the guys name was
Eddie DeBartolo........SR.

dickallen15
01-29-2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
They werent Moving Anywhere. Some owners, including the Fans here, were Opposed to that, and he guaranteed he
wasnt going to move the team. And the guys name was
Eddie DeBartolo........SR.

The father went by Edward, the son is Eddie, and they would have moved, just not right away. They would have needed a park built and would have gone to Denver or Tampa thats for sure.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-29-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
The father went by Edward, the son is Eddie, and they would have moved, just not right away. They would have needed a park built and would have gone to Denver or Tampa thats for sure.

This fantasyland line of reasoning would be a lot more effective if it weren't for the fact Reinsdorf ACTUALLY DID sign an agreement to move the Sox to St. Petersburg. And you're still trying to tell us it is relevant that DeBartolo *might* have done the same?

<makes circular motion with finger next to head>

dickallen15
01-29-2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
This fantasyland line of reasoning would be a lot more effective if it weren't for the fact Reinsdorf ACTUALLY DID sign an agreement to move the Sox to St. Petersburg. And you're still trying to tell us it is relevant that DeBartolo *might* have done the same?

<makes circular motion with finger next to head>

You can try and insult me all you want, the fact was Reinsdorf took a worse deal to stay here. DeBartolo wouldn't have.

gosox41
01-29-2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
They werent Moving Anywhere. Some owners, including the Fans here, were Opposed to that, and he guaranteed he
wasnt going to move the team. And the guys name was
Eddie DeBartolo........SR.

An owner making a promise and not keeping it?? Unpossible :D:

Bob

gosox41
01-29-2004, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
The current Ownership has me depressed about our Teams Fate
in the Standings and for its Existence. Seeing that the SOX have Resigned themselves to Crossing Their Fingers and HOPING Everyone on the Roster has a Career Year at the same time, Catapulting us to our 1st World Series Crown since 1917, instead of Taking Matters into our own Hands and getting/retaining the Players needed to get there, I got to thinking.

What if DeBartolo hadnt been so vocal in his desire to be the Owner of the White Sox? What if he had contained his openness to spend what it took to make the SOX Winners?
What if he Did become the new owner of the White Sox back
in 1981? How much different would things have been?
Fun to think about..............Esp knowing our Stadium
wouldve been in the South Loop. and we'd have been to
the World Series at least 3 Times since then ...........

The only positive thing I've heard about Eddie D is he spendsm oney. But he also has a repuation for hanging around shady characters and other illegal avtivities. Wasn't he the one put in jail in the mid '90's?

Seeing as how I feel about Pete Rose, I wouldn't want someone from the same character mold to own this team. I still hear dumb comments from idiot comments about the 1919 World Series being fixed. My guess is I would hear similar things from them if Eddie and his antics occurred here.

And I also have a feeling he would have moved the team.

Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
01-29-2004, 07:04 PM
The line of reasoning is mind-boggling. You think we should not like DeBartolo because he would move the ballclub even though Jerry Reinsdorf put his signature on a deal to move the ballclub.

Like Hal said, who can argue with that?

Daver
01-29-2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
The only positive thing I've heard about Eddie D is he spendsm oney. But he also has a repuation for hanging around shady characters and other illegal avtivities. Wasn't he the one put in jail in the mid '90's?



That would be the son,Eddie Debartolo Jr. The one that was thrown out of the NFL for hiding his ownership in some gulf coast casinos.

Eddie Sr. was kept out of MLB for his ownership in casinos as well as horse racing tracks,as well as for having some business partners that were considered less than completely honest.

Eddie Sr. would not have spent money like his son did,that wasn't his style,but he would have marketed the much better,and generated a better cash flow for the franchise across the board.

dickallen15
01-29-2004, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
The line of reasoning is mind-boggling. You think we should not like DeBartolo because he would move the ballclub even though Jerry Reinsdorf put his signature on a deal to move the ballclub.

Like Hal said, who can argue with that?

The fact remains, Reinsdorf did not move the team.

Daver
01-29-2004, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
The fact remains, Reinsdorf did not move the team.

Yeah JR is a hero for blackmailing the State of Illinois into building him a stadium.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-29-2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
The fact remains, Reinsdorf did not move the team.

LMAO! Yeah sure, Reinsdorf did not move the team... NO THANKS TO REINSDORF!

hold2dibber
01-29-2004, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I'm guessing Daver will be posting a reply about why it was *good* Reinsdorf got the Sox rather than DeBartolo. Suffice to say I disagree completely.

:bandance:

Just so I've got this right, you disagree completely with Daver (who apparently prefers JR to DeBartolo) or with Hangar, who obviously wishes DeBartolo had gotten the team?

Daver
01-29-2004, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Just so I've got this right, you disagree completely with Daver (who apparently prefers JR to DeBartolo)

I don't like either one of them.

George and I disagree about MLB disallowing Debartolo to purchase the Sox,he has no problem with a man with questionable ethics and ideals owning a Major league team,and I think that the commisioner made the right decision in the matter,baseball has had enough black eyes without adding something similar to what Debartolo Jr. did with the 49ers.

dickallen15
01-29-2004, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Yeah JR is a hero for blackmailing the State of Illinois into building him a stadium.

I never called Reinsdorf a hero. I do think he is a heck of a lot better than how he is portrayed. The state built him a stadium, just like they would have had to do for anyone who bought that team from Veeck in 1981, if the team was to continue to play here. The fact that the stadium is built with funds acquired through Chicago hotel taxes means most fans have had to contribute nothing to its construction.

Daver
01-29-2004, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
The fact that the stadium is built with funds acquired through Chicago hotel taxes means most fans have had to contribute nothing to its construction.

Wanna bet on that?

Chicago's main hotel tax revenue comes from the convention trade,which has been getting smaller in the Chicago market at a fairly steady rate,and a noticlably large one. When the bonds drawn on that tax come due in 11 years(I beleive they were twenty five year bonds,but I may be mistaken on that) and the tax has not been sufficient to cover them,the balance of the payoff will come out of state funds,which is your tax money.

dickallen15
01-29-2004, 09:27 PM
I'll bet

Daver
01-29-2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
I'll bet

I'm sure you will payoff the same way that Jerry and Eddie did 22 years ago when they promised they were going to build a "First Class Operation"

dickallen15
01-29-2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I'm sure you will payoff the same way that Jerry and Eddie did 22 years ago when they promised they were going to build a "First Class Operation"

I'd be the one worried about that. You would be doing the paying.

Daver
01-29-2004, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
I'd be the one worried about that. You would be doing the paying.

The bonds are already two years behind in expected revenue,in eleven years with the decline remaining the same it will be five.

ewokpelts
01-29-2004, 10:28 PM
dont forget that soldier field was paid though the same type of bonds...that means the city's splitting the hotel tax between the two projects........this is gunna hurt in 11 years....
Gene

dickallen15
01-29-2004, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The bonds are already two years behind in expected revenue,in eleven years with the decline remaining the same it will be five.

Through 2002 there was a surplus of $35 million collected since the inception of the tax.

Daver
01-29-2004, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Through 2002 there was a surplus of $35 million collected since the inception of the tax.

According to whom?

According to Rich Daley or according to the State Capitol?

The tax is statewide,but only funds generated in Cook county go to the bonds for Comiskey Park,as it was written by Jim Thompson.

tc1959
01-30-2004, 12:53 AM
Let's forget about the DeBartolo's. Remember back to 1975, the White Sox were headed to Seattle. The American League was looking for a way to get out of the lawsuit that Seattle had against them, after the Pilots were sold to Bud Selig, at the start of 1970 season.
The American League was looking for a buyer in Seattle and they would buy the White Sox and move them out to Seattle. However, Bill Veeck and his group proposed that they would buy and keep the Sox in Chicago. The A.L. tried every dirty trick they could to prove Veeck's group was under financed. After numerous votes against Veeck, the A.L. owners gave Veeck a deadline, if he and group could raise an additional million dollars, they would reconsider and vote again. The owners met again, and could not find any reason to Veeck out. Bill Veeck once again owns the White Sox.
Interesting side note. If the Sox were moved to Seattle, Charley Finley was going to move the Oakland A's, to Chicago, and rename them the White Sox. Finley, would have gotten what he always wanted, to have owned a baseball in his hometown of Chicago.
So, after all of this, I'm glad Bill Veeck's group sold the White Sox to Jerry Reinsdorf and his group.

Frater Perdurabo
01-30-2004, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by tc1959
Interesting side note. If the Sox were moved to Seattle, Charley Finley was going to move the Oakland A's, to Chicago, and rename them the White Sox. Finley, would have gotten what he always wanted, to have owned a baseball in his hometown of Chicago.

Interesting story.

BTW, you're the first WSI-er I've seen list Manhattan, IL, as their home town. I did some serious drinking in a corn field in Manhattan years back.

joecrede
01-30-2004, 08:36 AM
Somewhat off topic, but with all the success the DeBartolo family had with the 49ers, I'm surprised that they weren't able to get a new stadium built for the team.

Hangar18
01-30-2004, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by tc1959
Let's forget about the DeBartolo's. Remember back to 1975, the White Sox were headed to Seattle. The American League was looking for a way to get out of the lawsuit that Seattle had against them, after the Pilots were sold to Bud Selig, at the start of 1970 season.
The American League was looking for a buyer in Seattle and they would buy the White Sox and move them out to Seattle. However, Bill Veeck and his group proposed that they would buy and keep the Sox in Chicago. The A.L. tried every dirty trick they could to prove Veeck's group was under financed. After numerous votes against Veeck, the A.L. owners gave Veeck a deadline, if he and group could raise an additional million dollars, they would reconsider and vote again. The owners met again, and could not find any reason to Veeck out. Bill Veeck once again owns the White Sox.
Interesting side note. If the Sox were moved to Seattle, Charley Finley was going to move the Oakland A's, to Chicago, and rename them the White Sox. Finley, would have gotten what he always wanted, to have owned a baseball in his hometown of Chicago.
So, after all of this, I'm glad Bill Veeck's group sold the White Sox to Jerry Reinsdorf and his group.

My god, I remember all of this now. This was a Developing
story/soap opera for a while leading up that fateful day when
Veeck had that deadline. Wow I totally remember that, but
what I completely forgot, was that Sidestory that began
developing, with Charlie Finley. Man ......there were some
crazy twists and turns in this story. We should probably
change the name of this thread to
WHAT IF CHARLIE FINLEY MOVED THE A's HERE ??
Dick Allen was right, I do remember the issue of shady ethics
being brought up in regards to DeBartolo. Thanks TC for
the other info, I totally forgot about that

PaleHoseGeorge
01-30-2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
My god, I remember all of this now. This was a Developing
story/soap opera for a while leading up that fateful day when
Veeck had that deadline. Wow I totally remember that, but
what I completely forgot, was that Sidestory that began
developing, with Charlie Finley. Man ......there were some
crazy twists and turns in this story. We should probably
change the name of this thread to
WHAT IF CHARLIE FINLEY MOVED THE A's HERE ??
Dick Allen was right, I do remember the issue of shady ethics
being brought up in regards to DeBartolo. Thanks TC for
the other info, I totally forgot about that

Let's not forget Finley fielded champion teams *before* the era of free agency (pre-1976). He didn't have the money or inclination to keep any of the talent on his ballclub. He tried selling Vida Blue and Joe Rudi (?) but Bowie Kuhn blocked the deal, thus keeping MLB's foot on Finley's financial throat. By 1979 Finley's A's were known as the Oakland Triple-A's. They drew 600 fans for a home game.

Finley as new Sox owner would have solved nothing.

dickallen15
01-30-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Daver
According to whom?

According to Rich Daley or according to the State Capitol?

The tax is statewide,but only funds generated in Cook county go to the bonds for Comiskey Park,as it was written by Jim Thompson.

The tax is not statewide. That would never have flown in Springfield. The 2% tax is on hotel rooms in the city of Chicago only. You should look it up at the Illinois Dept. of Revenue site.

cornball
01-30-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Daver
That would be the son,Eddie Debartolo Jr. The one that was thrown out of the NFL for hiding his ownership in some gulf coast casinos.

Eddie Sr. was kept out of MLB for his ownership in casinos as well as horse racing tracks,as well as for having some business partners that were considered less than completely honest.

Eddie Sr. would not have spent money like his son did,that wasn't his style,but he would have marketed the much better,and generated a better cash flow for the franchise across the board.


Steinbrenner is part owner of Balmorial Race Track in Crete. How does MLB explain this? The owners are hypocrits.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-30-2004, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by cornball
Steinbrenner is part owner of Balmorial Race Track in Crete. How does MLB explain this? The owners are hypocrits.

Steinbrenner isn't Italian. Neither is Gailbreath.

Daver
01-30-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Let's not forget Finley fielded champion teams *before* the era of free agency (pre-1976). He didn't have the money or inclination to keep any of the talent on his ballclub. He tried selling Vida Blue and Joe Rudi (?) but Bowie Kuhn blocked the deal, thus keeping MLB's foot on Finley's financial throat. By 1979 Finley's A's were known as the Oakland Triple-A's. They drew 600 fans for a home game.

Finley as new Sox owner would have solved nothing.

Let's also not forget that as soon as FA was approved,Charles Finley saw the writing on the wall and sold the A's.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-30-2004, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Let's also not forget that as soon as FA was approved,Charles Finley saw the writing on the wall and sold the A's.

You're right. Finley knew he couldn't make money and sold out at his first opportunity. It took over three years and the A's became a laughingstock but he finally got out.

Reinsdorf just sticks around crying poor, now for most of 23 years. So I guess Finley *would* be an improvement over Reinsdorf.

:bandance:

jabrch
01-30-2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
The fact remains, Reinsdorf did not move the team.

Nor did DeBartolo (either of them) In their defense, neither of them have ruined the franchise either.

gosox41
01-31-2004, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
LMAO! Yeah sure, Reinsdorf did not move the team... NO THANKS TO REINSDORF!

Two points:
1. Did you want to see the team moved?
2. Who don't you also blame the Illinois Senate to agreeing to this deal? They agreed to this deal. They could have called JR's bluff, but they caved. I mean it's a baseball team the city would have lost. In the scheme of life as an Illinois tax payer it wasn't going to make or break the state.

Bob

gosox41
01-31-2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Daver
I'm sure you will payoff the same way that Jerry and Eddie did 22 years ago when they promised they were going to build a "First Class Operation"

Why not bet him Daver, instead of insulting him? What good does that comment make? He called you on it. If he doesn't pay off (and you or I have no reason to think he won't because no detatils of the bet have been made and I doubt someone like you would be quick to make an assumption of character without knowing them) you can call him a welcher and ruin his reputation on this board.

The bet should be of no consequece to you since you're certain you're going to win anyway. Worst case is you get to ruin a man's character IF he doesn't pay you off instead of jumping the gun now.

Bob

gosox41
01-31-2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by ewokpelts
dont forget that soldier field was paid though the same type of bonds...that means the city's splitting the hotel tax between the two projects........this is gunna hurt in 11 years....
Gene

And how is the city going to pay for another park that actually ran way over budget...Millenium Park? How was that subsidized to begin with?

Bob

PaleHoseGeorge
01-31-2004, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Two points:
1. Did you want to see the team moved?
2. Who don't you also blame the Illinois Senate to agreeing to this deal? They agreed to this deal. They could have called JR's bluff, but they caved. I mean it's a baseball team the city would have lost. In the scheme of life as an Illinois tax payer it wasn't going to make or break the state.

Bob

Hey Bob, I don't *blame* the Illinois Senate for agreeing to the deal. I give them *credit* for agreeing to the deal. It is dickallen15 who wants to give *credit* to Jerry Reinsdorf. As if Reinsdorf has the authority to tax hotel and convention goers to build a ballpark or something...

Let's get real. Reinsdorf signature was on that contract to move the Sox to St. Pete just as suredly as his signature was on the lease deal to play at New Comiskey. If the Illinois legislature approved the ballpark funding and Reinsdorf *didn't* follow through as that contract stipulated, he would have been SUED for breach, either by the Floridians or the Illinoisans who he double-crossed.

Stop trying to give *credit* to Reinsdorf for things any rational human being would do.

dickallen15
01-31-2004, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Hey Bob, I don't *blame* the Illinois Senate for agreeing to the deal. I give them *credit* for agreeing to the deal. It is dickallen15 who wants to give *credit* to Jerry Reinsdorf. As if Reinsdorf has the authority to tax hotel and convention goers to build a ballpark or something...

Let's get real. Reinsdorf signature was on that contract to move the Sox to St. Pete just as suredly as his signature was on the lease deal to play at New Comiskey. If the Illinois legislature approved the ballpark funding and Reinsdorf *didn't* follow through as that contract stipulated, he would have been SUED for breach, either by the Floridians or the Illinoisans who he double-crossed.

Stop trying to give *credit* to Reinsdorf for things any rational human being would do.

Obviously you haven't comprehended my posts. I said if DeBartolo bought the team it still wouldn't be playing in Chicago. I stand by that. Reinsdorf may have signed something to move the team to St. Petersburg, I do not know that. If that's what he had to do to get the state to build a new park more power to him. He had a better deal in Florida than the one he got with the new park here. My point is that DeBartolo was far more likely to go with the better deal than Reinsdorf was. If people wanted an American League team in Chicago after 1986 or 1987, there was going to have to be a public funded stadium. Comiskey Park had become a money pit due to age and years upon years of neglect. Parts of the upper deck were falling down. Reinsdorf screwed up in many ways with the park, but it also was a lot cheaper than the ones it was unfavorably compared to. I have not called Reinsdorf a hero, I have not given him credit for building the new park. I simply said that if his group didn't buy the team, the current team would be in another city, and if another team were to have moved here, or an expansion team placed here, it would only be here with a public funded stadium.

doogiec
02-01-2004, 09:36 AM
Edward DeBartolo Sr. (http://www.brasscheck.com/stadium/moldea.html)

Anyone who believes Debartolo would have been a wonderful, fan friendly owner needs to read the above.

On a more baseball related front, I still recall being shocked by a radio interview with him when it was likely he would own this team (until this time, I was strongly in favor of him). During this interview, he discussed his plans to build a structure around the existing ball park, which would support a permanent dome over Comiskey Park (along with astroturf, of course).

He would have destroyed and moved the White Sox within 5 years, IMO.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-01-2004, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by doogiec
Edward DeBartolo Sr. (http://www.brasscheck.com/stadium/moldea.html)

Anyone who believes Debartolo would have been a wonderful, fan friendly owner needs to read the above.

On a more baseball related front, I still recall being shocked by a radio interview with him when it was likely he would own this team (until this time, I was strongly in favor of him). During this interview, he discussed his plans to build a structure around the existing ball park, which would support a permanent dome over Comiskey Park (along with astroturf, of course).

He would have destroyed and moved the White Sox within 5 years, IMO.

He was going to build a dome over Comiskey Park. Then he was going to *move* them? I can't be the only one here scratching his head wondering how you drew that conclusion.

jabrch
02-01-2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
He was going to build a dome over Comiskey Park. Then he was going to *move* them? I can't be the only one here scratching his head wondering how you drew that conclusion.

I don't get it either. :?:

doogiec
02-01-2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
He was going to build a dome over Comiskey Park. Then he was going to *move* them? I can't be the only one here scratching his head wondering how you drew that conclusion.

Its a pretty simple conclusion actually. Old Comiskey Park would have been a depressing, horrific place to go had a permanent dome been built over it. And attendance, which was already abysmal by the end of the Veeck era, would have plummetted to such levels that he would have no option but to move the team. And don't forget that he had strong Florida ties, and had previously wanted to move a team to New Orleans. Can you imagine how many fans would go to the DeBartolo Dome on a sunny June weekend? Remember "Old Chicago". I don't think the investors that put money into that disaster thought it would be gone in a matter of a few years, but it was.

I never stated that it was DeBartolo's intent when he bought the team to move the team within five years. It is my opinion that he would have mismanaged the team with decisions such as the "dome" to the point of disaster, forcing the move.

Sort of like Reinsdorf in fast forward.

And I can never understand why someone would want a sleazebag like DeBartolo running a team, regardless of the level of distrust and hatred toward JR.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-01-2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
Its a pretty simple conclusion actually. Old Comiskey Park would have been a depressing, horrific place to go had a permanent dome been built over it....

Anybody willing to spend his own money for that kind of improvement to his ballpark is *not* likely to turn around and move them. He would have too much invested to walk away from Comiskey Park.

Furthermore, domed stadiums were still the rage back in 1980. You may know the Twins were putting the finishing touches on their domed stadium and the Blue Jays were planning their own retractible roof variety--complete with astroturf.

Sorry, I'm not buying any of this theory of yours.

doogiec
02-01-2004, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Anybody willing to spend his own money for that kind of improvement to his ballpark is *not* likely to turn around and move them. He would have too much invested to walk away from Comiskey Park.

Furthermore, domed stadiums were still the rage back in 1980. You may know the Twins were putting the finishing touches on their domed stadium and the Blue Jays were planning their own retractible roof variety--complete with astroturf.

Sorry, I'm not buying any of this theory of yours.

1. Business decisions 101: Never make financial decision based on sunk costs. The amount of money spent in the past is irrelevant. Make decisions based on future cash flows. By your theory, businesses would never shut down or relocate, because the owners had "put too much money into them". Sorry, but he's already out the money to build the dome. At that point the only thing that matters is where he can bring in the bigger revenues in the future. Its not like he gets the cost of the dome refunded if he stays in Chicago long enough. Again, I never said it was his intention at the time of purchase to move the team.

2. He never said anything about using his own money. Reinsdorf's group did some remodeling when they bought old Comiskey, and got city help in doing so. By your theory, since Reinsdorf and co. spent so much of their own money buying the park, and a lot of their own money renovating the park they certainly would never consider moving. But he had a signed deal with St Pete to do so.

3. Baseball fans despised the Hump the day it opened. It was built for football, with a baseball field forced in. Ask any Twins fan how they liked the decision to move there. Retractable domes are entirely different, since games are played outdoors in good weather. Only two permanent domes were built for baseball in that time period, Seattle and Minn, both were considered terrible places to watch baseball. That's "The Rage"?

4. I actually thought the whole "Dome" situation was relatively meaningless compared with the information presented in the link. Ties to gambling, organized crime and drug trafficking should draw a lot more commentary than my completely unprovable argument that the Sox would have drawn poorly in "Comiskey Dome".

PaleHoseGeorge
02-01-2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
1. Business decisions 101: Never make financial decision based on sunk costs. The amount of money spent in the past is irrelevant. Make decisions based on future cash flows. By your theory, businesses would never shut down or relocate, because the owners had "put too much money into them". Sorry, but he's already out the money to build the dome. At that point the only thing that matters is where he can bring in the bigger revenues in the future. Its not like he gets the cost of the dome refunded if he stays in Chicago long enough. Again, I never said it was his intention at the time of purchase to move the team.

2. He never said anything about using his own money. Reinsdorf's group did some remodeling when they bought old Comiskey, and got city help in doing so. By your theory, since Reinsdorf and co. spent so much of their own money buying the park, and a lot of their own money renovating the park they certainly would never consider moving. But he had a signed deal with St Pete to do so.

3. Baseball fans despised the Hump the day it opened. It was built for football, with a baseball field forced in. Ask any Twins fan how they liked the decision to move there. Retractable domes are entirely different, since games are played outdoors in good weather. Only two permanent domes were built for baseball in that time period, Seattle and Minn, both were considered terrible places to watch baseball. That's "The Rage"?

4. I actually thought the whole "Dome" situation was relatively meaningless compared with the information presented in the link. Ties to gambling, organized crime and drug trafficking should draw a lot more commentary than my completely unprovable argument that the Sox would have drawn poorly in "Comiskey Dome".

1. I'm not sure what business school taught you your "101" theory, but I can assure you nobody but a bad business manager would invest in a domed stadium and then turn around and move his team, especially on the five year plan you're insulting the rest of us into believing DeBartolo would do.

2. Reinsdorf spent most of his money on putting in skyboxes precisely because he knew he would get a quick return on them. Once the real cost of upkeep was revealed he bolted, first to Addison and then St. Pete. How this makes his *real* behavior preferable compared to what you *theorize* DeBartolo might do is beyond me.

3. To this day there are Minnesotans who yammer about what a great design the HumpDome is because of how much money they saved while providing three sports teams (the Twins, Vikings, and Gophers) an indoor stadium to play in. It is only the fear of losing those teams that has any of them contemplating replacing it. So what is your point, besides noting that 20 year old sports facilities are obsolete? There are plenty of them around the country besides downtown Minneapolis. For example, the one at 35th and Shields, now undergoing Phase 4 of its five-phase remodeling. Sheesh...

4. With all due respect, your link sucks. If you want to discuss DeBartolo as an owner better or worse than Reinsdorf, you'll need to do better than quoting Moldea. The man is a joke. I'm only guessing he isn't blaming DeBartolo for O.J. getting away with allegedly murdering Ron and Nicole. He loves conspiracy theories, after all. This organized crime bit is farcical, a straw-man set up by those who simply hate DeBartolo to better defend Reinsdorf.

doogiec
02-01-2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
1. I'm not sure what business school taught you your "101" theory, but I can assure you nobody but a bad business manager would invest in a domed stadium and then turn around and move his team, especially on the five year plan you're insulting the rest of us into believing DeBartolo would do.

2. Reinsdorf spent most of his money on putting in skyboxes precisely because he knew he would get a quick return on them. Once the real cost of upkeep was revealed he bolted, first to Addison and then St. Pete. How this makes his *real* behavior preferable compared to what you *theorize* DeBartolo might do is beyond me.

3. To this day there are Minnesotans who yammer about what a great design the HumpDome is because of how much money they saved while providing three sports teams (the Twins, Vikings, and Gophers) an indoor stadium to play in. It is only the fear of losing those teams that has any of them contemplating replacing it. So what is your point, besides noting that 20 year old sports facilities are obsolete? There are plenty of them around the country besides downtown Minneapolis. For example, the one at 35th and Shields, now undergoing Phase 4 of its five-phase remodeling. Sheesh...

4. With all due respect, your link sucks. If you want to discuss DeBartolo as an owner better or worse than Reinsdorf, you'll need to do better than quoting Moldea. The man is a joke. I'm only guessing he isn't blaming DeBartolo for O.J. getting away with allegedly murdering Ron and Nicole. He loves conspiracy theories, after all. This organized crime bit is farcical, a straw-man set up by those who simply hate DeBartolo to better defend Reinsdorf.


1. Sometime when you're bored google "sunk costs business decisions" and view the dozens of business school sources that agree with me on this. Only a bad business manager would stubbornly fail to admit they made a mistake while sacrificing the ability to make more money elsewhere in the future. To answer your question, Marquette University (although 20 years real world experience is the real teacher of that lesson).

2. I never stated Reinsdorf's real behavior was better or worse than what I think would have happened to DeBartolo. I stated it was the same, as proof that yes, people sometimes walk away from invested money in order to possibly make more money over the long run.

3. My point is that after the Metrodome was built, no one ever built a fixed dome stadium for baseball again. And you're right, they saved a lot of money doing that. And built possibly the worst stadium in baseball. I've been to a few games there over the years. Its depressing, and I wouldn't trade it for US Cell for the world. And I remember heavy criticism of the Hump from all directions of baseball the very year it opened.

4. If you don't like that link, google "debartolo gambling" or "debartolo mob" or "debartolo organized crime" and you'll get a few thousand more. These allegations have raged in reputable and non reputable news reports for 20 years. There sure is a LOT of smoke if, as you insist, there is no fire.

BTW, do you think building a shell around Comiskey Park supporting a permanent dome over the park would have been a good idea? Maybe I'm the only one that would have hated that to the point I would have stopped going? If so, then I'm wrong, and I've misjudged what Sox fans would want in a stadium.

I'm done with this one.

PaleHoseGeorge
02-01-2004, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by doogiec
1....

I'm done with this one.

I might have offered a serious response to this except you claim you're done, so I won't. However I must say I'm insulted by your condescending notion that a college degree from Marquette makes you a more astute businessman than me. I can only imagine had you chosen not to bail you would next ask to compare W-2's and then the length of our boxer shorts, too.

Gimme a break...

Hangar18
02-02-2004, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


3. To this day there are Minnesotans who yammer about what a great design the HumpDome is because of how much money they saved while providing three sports teams (the Twins, Vikings, and Gophers) an indoor stadium to play in. It is only the fear of losing those teams that has any of them contemplating replacing it. So what is your point, besides noting that 20 year old sports facilities are obsolete? There are plenty of them around the country besides downtown Minneapolis. For example, the one at 35th and Shields, now undergoing Phase 4 of its five-phase remodeling. Sheesh...



heh heh, this much is true, some of the fans I spoke to, mentioned how the Hump did indeed help the teams and solved a problem........which was the weather up there. they definitely dont want to lose a team, as which happened with their NStars.
The 35th St example is Easy to mention, yet PERFECT to mention at the same time. How very true that were in phase no (insert phase # here) of the "remodeling to make a better place for our fans"

PaulDrake
02-02-2004, 10:43 AM
I've been wanting to jump in on this one for a while. There is lots I'd like to say but let me keep it as brief as possible. Has anyone here ever been to Youngstown, Ohio? What a depressing decrepit place it is now. What a bustling, lively and corrupt town it once was. The collapse of the American steel industry began in Youngstown around 1977. The truth is even in its heydey Youngstown was a mob town. In the 50's and 60's Youngstown was known as "Bomb Town USA". As per a link provided by one of the posters here between 1952 and 1954 several of Edward DeBartolo Srs construction sites were bombed. Perhaps, and I'm only speculating here he made an "accomodation" in order to stay in business. I'm telling you, it's important to know a little bit about the history. Places like Cicero, Stone Park, and Calumet City were mild compared to Youngstown. It's hard for me to imagine a more thoroughly corrupt place in the US. Even in recent years when Youngstown has deteriorated to just a shell of its former self it has been the site of a major war between the Pittsburgh and Cleveland Organized Crime families in which Pittsburgh emerged victorious. Also, and I'm going on memory, in recent years I believe a DA was shot and seriously wounded in an assassination attempt. Not to make any excuses, but this is the environment that EDB Sr emerged out of. As far as the man goes, he loved to gamble and he loved to win. He spent money on his teams. The 49ers and the Penguins never won a thing until his organization took control. In 1980 when the sale of the White Sox to DeBartolo was supposedly imminent there were rumors that he wanted to move the team to the New Orleans Superdome. Yes, domes were the all the rage back then even if many of us old time fans hated them. Mike Royko wrote a scathing column against DeBartolo which he retracted in almost record time, a rarity for him. I was told that an Italian Amercan friend of Royko's convinced him that DeBartolo was on the up and up and that he was being railroaded by Bowie Kuhn and company. Perhaps someone here knows better than I on this little side story. I can tell you that through business contacts of the 80's and 90's I became convinced that the elder DeBartolo ran a high end operation and that he liked to go first class all the way. It's my opinion that if he had bought the club, he would have surveyed the situation, and tried to build a big winner in Chicago. Like I said he loved to compete, gamble and win. As is often the case his son was not made of the sterner stuff that Dad was. He screwed up big time and lost control of the 49ers. In conclusion Mr DeBartolo was born in 1909 and came out of a different time and place than most here are familiar with. Again, this is not to excuse, but to explain. Early "accomodations" may have been necessary for him to survive in Youngstown. I know. I've been there and have relatives who lived there.

Maximo
02-02-2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
I've been wanting to jump in on this one for a while. There is lots I'd like to say but let me keep it as brief as possible. Has anyone here ever been to Youngstown, Ohio? What a depressing decrepit place it is now. What a bustling, lively and corrupt town it once was. The collapse of the American steel industry began in Youngstown around 1977. The truth is even in its heydey Youngstown was a mob town. In the 50's and 60's Youngstown was known as "Bomb Town USA". As per a link provided by one of the posters here between 1952 and 1954 several of Edward DeBartolo Srs construction sites were bombed. Perhaps, and I'm only speculating here he made an "accomodation" in order to stay in business. I'm telling you, it's important to know a little bit about the history. Places like Cicero, Stone Park, and Calumet City were mild compared to Youngstown. It's hard for me to imagine a more thoroughly corrupt place in the US. Even in recent years when Youngstown has deteriorated to just a shell of its former self it has been the site of a major war between the Pittsburgh and Cleveland Organized Crime families in which Pittsburgh emerged victorious. Also, and I'm going on memory, in recent years I believe a DA was shot and seriously wounded in an assassination attempt. Not to make any excuses, but this is the environment that EDB Sr emerged out of. As far as the man goes, he loved to gamble and he loved to win. He spent money on his teams. The 49ers and the Penguins never won a thing until his organization took control. In 1980 when the sale of the White Sox to DeBartolo was supposedly imminent there were rumors that he wanted to move the team to the New Orleans Superdome. Yes, domes were the all the rage back then even if many of us old time fans hated them. Mike Royko wrote a scathing column against DeBartolo which he retracted in almost record time, a rarity for him. I was told that an Italian Amercan friend of Royko's convinced him that DeBartolo was on the up and up and that he was being railroaded by Bowie Kuhn and company. Perhaps someone here knows better than I on this little side story. I can tell you that through business contacts of the 80's and 90's I became convinced that the elder DeBartolo ran a high end operation and that he liked to go first class all the way. It's my opinion that if he had bought the club, he would have surveyed the situation, and tried to build a big winner in Chicago. Like I said he loved to compete, gamble and win. As is often the case his son was not made of the sterner stuff that Dad was. He screwed up big time and lost control of the 49ers. In conclusion Mr DeBartolo was born in 1909 and came out of a different time and place than most here are familiar with. Again, this is not to excuse, but to explain. Early "accomodations" may have been necessary for him to survive in Youngstown. I know. I've been there and have relatives who lived there.



Good post. I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other concerning the DeBartolos. However, your post helps me to understand how Jim Traficant rose to power politically and got elected to Congress.

At least I think he's from the Youngstown area.