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GW83
01-29-2004, 02:53 PM
who was the biggest bust in the 1980's?


Joel Skinner?

Ken Williams?

Daryl Boston?

Ron Karkovice?

Russ Mormon?

oldcomiskey
01-29-2004, 02:54 PM
Kark was an outstanding defensive catcher and one of the best cluth hitters on the 93 team--My vote goes to Skinner because he was supposed to be the one who moved Fisk to left field

Gumshoe
01-29-2004, 02:59 PM
even mentioning Karko as a bust is CRIMINAL. He was the best defensive catcher in baseball at that time ... and boy could he bunt. SOLID.

CHISOXFAN13
01-29-2004, 03:03 PM
I have problems with several of those guys on that list, but I'm in agreement with the others on Karko. He was a solid catcher for several successful seasons.

doublem23
01-29-2004, 03:03 PM
Mentioning Kark's bust is also criminal.

Zooooooooooooooooooooooooo-weeeeeeeeeeeee

GW83
01-29-2004, 03:03 PM
A 225 career hitter with about 100 HR in 12 seasons doesn't make even a solid player even if he was a a Gold Glove catcher. Oh wait, he didn't win one of those either.

doublem23
01-29-2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by GW83
A 225 career hitter with about 100 HR in 12 seasons doesn't make even a solid player even if he was a a Gold Glove catcher. Oh wait, he didn't win one of those either.

What? Catcher is the one spot on the field you can afford to be an offensive liability. Also, he had to contend with the likes of Ivan Rodriguez and Bob Boone, who won all but 2 of the AL Gold Gloves during t he Officer's career.

GW83
01-29-2004, 03:17 PM
Actually that's SS where you can have a 225 hitter.

And excuses, excuses, excuses. So I guess he wasn't the best defensive catcher???? Why didn't he win it in 90-91 BEFORE I-Rod came into the league? Tony Pena and Sandy Alomar Jr won it.

Kark was a first round pick who was a bust. He had a decemt career by by no means an AS.

doublem23
01-29-2004, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by GW83
[B]Actually that's SS where you can have a 225 hitter.
[B]

Defensively the catcher is far more important than a shortstop. Kark may have been a first-round pick bust, but not a "true" bust.

CHISOXFAN13
01-29-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by GW83
Actually that's SS where you can have a 225 hitter.

And excuses, excuses, excuses. So I guess he wasn't the best defensive catcher???? Why didn't he win it in 90-91 BEFORE I-Rod came into the league? Tony Pena and Sandy Alomar Jr won it.

Kark was a first round pick who was a bust. He had a decemt career by by no means an AS.

Kark was the backstop for a pitching staff that was one of the best in the American League during his years behind the plate.

I guess if you are a first-round pick you have to be an all-star not to be a bust, huh?

Ridiculous.

GW83
01-29-2004, 03:28 PM
No but you certainly shouldn't be a 225 hitter with little power. There are plenty of catchers who call a good game and are good hitters. Too bad Kark isn't one of them.

WinningUgly!
01-29-2004, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by GW83
And excuses, excuses, excuses. So I guess he wasn't the best defensive catcher???? Why didn't he win it in 90-91 BEFORE I-Rod came into the league? Tony Pena and Sandy Alomar Jr won it.


Because Kark was still backing up Fisk during the 90-91 seasons! Kark very well could have been the best defensive catcher in the league, but Gold Glove Awards are usually only given out to everyday players.

Geez, what's with the Karkovice hatin'?

GW83
01-29-2004, 03:37 PM
I don't hate Kark at all. But some people are making him out to be this superstar when in fact he was just an average player. Great with the glove and calling a game. But terrible with the bat.

And I just listed him as a bust along with Boston, Skinner, KW etc. I certainly didn't intent for this to happen.

WinningUgly!
01-29-2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by GW83
I don't hate Kark at all. But some people are making him out to be this superstar when in fact he was just an average player. Great with the glove and calling a game. But terrible with the bat.

And I just listed him as a bust along with Boston, Skinner, KW etc. I certainly didn't intent for this to happen.

I'd hardly consider Joel Skinner a bust, but maybe you expect a little bit more out of 36th round picks than I do. :D:

poorme
01-29-2004, 06:02 PM
Kark didn't hit in the minors either so there wasn't the expectation he was going to be great.

Skinner was touted as our top prospect, not sure why....he sucked. Mormon was a #1 no? How on earth was he drafted in the first round?

Lip Man 1
01-29-2004, 07:04 PM
The biggest Sox bust of the 80's?

Easy call.....the owner.

Who can forget collusion and the Florida White Sox.

Lip

WinningUgly!
01-29-2004, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
The biggest Sox bust of the 80's?

Easy call.....the owner.


Can't argue with that! :)

Huisj
01-29-2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by GW83
No but you certainly shouldn't be a 225 hitter with little power. There are plenty of catchers who call a good game and are good hitters. Too bad Kark isn't one of them.

You're getting yourself in mighty deep for this being your first thread and your first few posts on this board.

As for the stuff about him being a bust because he wasn't an all star, that's ridiculous. So say there are 30 first round picks per year, and all of them that don't become all stars are busts. That means that if they all are going to avoid being busts, there will basically be complete turnover of the all star team every year, because there are only slightly more spots on the all star team than there are first round picks each year. Obviously, not every first round pick is an all star. That doesn't mean that all who aren't are busts.

You seem to totally be overlooking the reality of the situation of Ron Karkovice in your arguments of why he was a bust.

Also, just how many good hitting catchers are out there who do call a good game? No, let me change that . . . How many good hitting catcher were there from 1988 through 1994 who called a good game?

Huisj
01-29-2004, 09:05 PM
you said little power too. 20 homers in 128 games isn't so little.
his 162 game average is 17 homers. obviously catchers don't play 162 games a year, but it puts his power in better perspective, and it was certainly reasonable for a good defensive catcher.

anyone remember his inside the park homer at the metrodome?

Lip Man 1
01-29-2004, 09:38 PM
Yes I do, I have it on tape.

lip

ondafarm
01-29-2004, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Defensively the catcher is far more important than a shortstop. Kark may have been a first-round pick bust, but not a "true" bust.


I disagree with that. Posada is actually a below average defensive guy but well above average offensively (for catchers) whereas the Yanks take a big tumble when they lose Jeter a solid defensive player. Kark did all the little things badly for a catcher, but he wasn't a bust.

beckett21
01-29-2004, 10:42 PM
I can't believe I am admitting this, but I used to have a Kenny Williams #7 jersey...but I think Boston was the bigger bust.

Karko had some wheels for a C, and that cannon is legendary. I had no problem with his game.

tanko
01-29-2004, 11:37 PM
Got to be Boston how chances that bum get.

GW83
01-30-2004, 04:04 AM
Thanks for the nice welcome.

Kark was a highly rated prospect for the Sox. Yes he wasn't expected to hit much and he proved it. And while first round draft picks don't have to be AS not to be considerd a bust, they certainly have to hit higher thatn 225 for his career. Kark never was an AS. He was a decent player but not even a solid everyday catcher. Fisk left in what? 92 or 93? I mean he couldn't even beat out and 40 year old. Come on.

And that BS about power. Is 100 hrs in 12 years a good figure? Yeah that's what I thought. If you want to be a stat nerd, go to Chokeland and work for Beany.


Bob Boone who won the Gold Glove and hit about 275 at the END of his career and he called a great game.

Mickey Tettleton had a lot of power, 25 or more HR's each year, and he called a decent game.

Terry Steinbach of the A's hit in the 260 range with good 15-20 HR's a year and he called a great game.

These were NL but

Santiago was in his prime back then and hit 270 with good power and called a good game.

Tony Pena samething.

Shall I continue???

seventytwo
01-30-2004, 07:46 AM
Couple of points here.

1) Mickey Tettleton was an awful defensive catcher.

2) Wasn't Daryl Boston actually come up through the Red Sox farm system? When was he traded (or acquired) here?

poorme
01-30-2004, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by seventytwo

2) Wasn't Daryl Boston actually come up through the Red Sox farm system? When was he traded (or acquired) here? [/B]

no

tanko
01-30-2004, 08:52 AM
[
2) Wasn't Daryl Boston actually come up through the Red Sox farm system? When was he traded (or acquired) here? [/B][/QUOTE]


Boston was our systems top prospect for about 20 years.

seventytwo
01-30-2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by poorme
no

Oops. Thanks.

Irishlawyer
01-30-2004, 09:15 AM
If you consider his full tenure with the team, it is clear that Kenny Williams is the biggest bust - especially if you can combine his job as player and manager.

WinningUgly!
01-30-2004, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by GW83
Thanks for the nice welcome.

Kark was a highly rated prospect for the Sox. Yes he wasn't expected to hit much and he proved it. And while first round draft picks don't have to be AS not to be considerd a bust, they certainly have to hit higher thatn 225 for his career. Kark never was an AS. He was a decent player but not even a solid everyday catcher. Fisk left in what? 92 or 93? I mean he couldn't even beat out and 40 year old. Come on.

And that BS about power. Is 100 hrs in 12 years a good figure? Yeah that's what I thought. If you want to be a stat nerd, go to Chokeland and work for Beany.


Bob Boone who won the Gold Glove and hit about 275 at the END of his career and he called a great game.
Bob Boone's BA did jump a little in his last few seasons, but he was a lifetime .254 hitter with no power...105 HRs over 19 seasons. All about defense & calling the game.

Mickey Tettleton had a lot of power, 25 or more HR's each year, and he called a decent game.
Tettleton flat out sucked as a catcher. He had good power, but was always among the league leaders in strike outs (even with limited ABs). He was never a full time catcher either. They'd stick him anywhere they could to get him out from behind the plate...1B, DH, OF.

Terry Steinbach of the A's hit in the 260 range with good 15-20 HR's a year and he called a great game.
Always liked Steinbach. He did call a great game & was very productive offensively for a catcher. Saying he had 15-20 HR power is pushing it a bit. He had a monster 1986, with 35 HRs (must have stumbled upon the Bash Bros. stash)...only reached the 15 HR mark 2 other times in his 14 year career.


Nobody is trying to say that Ron Karkovice was one of the best overall catchers in baseball during his career, but he was part of the big league club for 12 years, so forget about the bust label!

Here's the 1982 1st round ...
Looking at this list 22 years later, Karkovice looks like the steal of the draft.
You didn't get 12 years of service out of most of these names.
1. Cubs Shawon Dunston SS Brooklyn, NY
2. Blue Jays Augie Schmidt SS University of New Orleans
3. Padres Jimmy Jones RHP Dallas, TX
4. Twins Bryan Oelkers LHP Wichita State University
5. Mets Dwight Gooden RHP Tampa, FL
6. Mariners Spike Owen SS University of Texas
7. Pirates Sam Khalifa SS Tucson, AZ
8. Angels Bob Kipper LHP Aurora, IL
9. Braves Duane Ward RHP Farmington, NM
10. Royals John Morris OF Seton Hall University
11. Giants Steve Stanicek 1B University of Nebraksa
12. Indians Mark Snyder RHP Knoxville, TN
13. Phillies John Russell C-OF University of Oklahoma
14. White Sox Ron Karkovice C Orlando, FL
15. Astros Steve Swain OF El Cajon, CA
16. Red Sox Sam Horn 1B San Diego, CA
17. Cubs Tony Woods SS Whittier College
18. Red Sox Rob Parkins RHP Cerritos, CA
19. Dodgers Franklin Stubbs 1B Virginia Tech
20. Tigers Rich Monteleone RHP Tampa, FL
21. Cardinals Todd Worrell RHP Biola College
22. Reds Scott Jones LHP Hinsdale, IL
23. Reds Bill Hawley RHP West Columbia, SC
24. Orioles Joe Kucharski RHP University of South Carolina
25. Brewers Dale Sveum SS Pinole, CA
26. Red Sox Jeff Ledbetter 1B-OF Florida State University

jabrch
01-30-2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by GW83
who was the biggest bust in the 1980's?


Joel Skinner?

Ken Williams?

Daryl Boston?

Ron Karkovice?

Russ Mormon?


Is it possible KW could be the biggest bust in two different decades? The 80s and the 00s

Hangar18
01-30-2004, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Is it possible KW could be the biggest bust in two different decades? The 80s and the 00s

HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH, that was excellent.
I agree, that guy had a lot of Hype, and he STUNK. so did Daryl Boston, what a buster. Before all is said and Done,
I have a feeling were going to be saying the same thing
about a certain Joe Borchard guy .......

jabrch
01-30-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
HAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH, that was excellent.
I agree, that guy had a lot of Hype, and he STUNK. so did Daryl Boston, what a buster. Before all is said and Done,
I have a feeling were going to be saying the same thing
about a certain Joe Borchard guy .......


KW, as a player, never looked big enough to have an impact. He wasn't going to build enough muscle to be a powerful hitter and he wasn't quite talented enough to just be a good hitter. Borchard, on the other hand, almost looks too big - but not muscular enough (granted I have never quite seen him up close and personal) to be a great hitter. He looks a little...puffy

poorme
01-30-2004, 01:00 PM
Kenny had the tools, he just couldn't make contact. He was plenty big enough. Fast too.

GW83
01-30-2004, 02:31 PM
I remember KW being billed as a five tool player. With power being the last tool to develop.

GW83
01-30-2004, 02:33 PM
Kark is still a BUST.