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View Full Version : Worst 1-2 punch ?


GOC
01-28-2004, 02:23 PM
I was just wondering - since everyone ( myself included ) is so down on JR and KW who , if anyone , do you think has a more frustrating , annoying , obnoxious and weaselly GM /owner combo . Are there any other teams with the whole small market team in a big market town problem ? Is it really as bad as being an actual small market team that knows not even a new owner could promise them long term or consistent viability ?

Foulke You
01-28-2004, 02:28 PM
I can think of two that are much worse than JR/KW. Blackhawks owner Dollar Bill Wirtz and acting GM Bob Pulford. Those two make JR/KW look like Steinbrenner and Cashman.

Sad
01-28-2004, 02:36 PM
amen on the Hawks analogy...

what an utter disgrace :angry: that franchise has become... it's just sickening that Chicago's original-6 team has become the laughing stock of the league...


... and I see no hope other than Mr. Wirtz' demise...

SEALgep
01-28-2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I can think of two that are much worse than JR/KW. Blackhawks owner Dollar Bill Wirtz and acting GM Bob Pulford. Those two make JR/KW look like Steinbrenner and Cashman.

Agreed, at least JR lets the GM and manager of the team do their job without breathing down their neck. Other owners do that and it really is detrimental to their success. We have other issues, but a lot of times it doesn't matter how much money you put into a team when an owner is always overshadowing their management.

longshot7
01-28-2004, 02:40 PM
I totally agree with the Wirtz/Pulford suggestion. They're the reason I stopped following hockey - it's insane that they don't televise home games. I'm surprised somebody hasn't put Dollar Bill out of our misery.

for baseball, I'd say LA's Daly/Evans combo is worse. One doesn't know the first thing about running a baseball team, the other... oh wait, that's both of them. How about this: One's cheap, the other's stupid... oh wait, that's both of them too. Anyway, I'd take JR & KW over those boobs.

Iwritecode
01-28-2004, 02:58 PM
What about he Expos? I don't think the GM is all that bad but they can basically make no moves whatsoever even if they wanted to.

Plus, they just watched one of their best players leave because they couldn't pay him...

SEALgep
01-28-2004, 03:00 PM
The Expos problems stem further out than their GM. With ownership from all the other teams, how can anything ever get done. Money is a dilimma as well, which is why their moving. If that team gets a new owner and moves to Vegas- watch out. People will want to go there.

jeremyb1
01-28-2004, 03:19 PM
Don't you guys realize that the majority of fans of mlb teams hate their team's owner? Someone like Steinbrenner probably gets off the hook but how about all the teams whose payroll is far lower than ours? What if you were a fan of the Brewers, Pirates, A's, Twins, Devil Rays, Tigers, Indians, Reds, or Padres? People act as though we're the only sports fans upset with our club's budget.

Frater Perdurabo
01-28-2004, 03:29 PM
Ha ha. When I first saw this thread I thought it would refer to the Sox possible 1-2 (lineup) punch of Harris and Rowand. Ouch.

WSox8404
01-28-2004, 03:43 PM
Don't forget Angelo and McCaskey. Come to think of it almost all of the GM/Owner combos in this city are horrible.

doublem23
01-28-2004, 03:47 PM
The only thing that brings the Sox down in this category is the owner. But there have to be worse combos in the Majors... Milwaukee, for instance?

michned
01-28-2004, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
The only thing that brings the Sox down in this category is the owner...

Agreed. Sometimes I think KW gets some unfair criticism. Yes, he's made some stupid deals, but I bet every GM has (with the possible exception of Roland Hemond, in all seriousness).

I think KW's biggest problem is he is an upper management suckup to JR. You can almost see it in his eyes and hear it in his voice how frustrated he is at the financial constraints that have been placed on him. To paraphrase Ditka, in life, sometimes you've got to follow your heart, and if he's frustrated at his working conditions he should head out the door. This is a Stanford grad we're talking about, one of John Elway's receivers. He'd be successful doing something somewhere and I'm willing to bet he completely realizes what a load of BS his boss is placing upon him.

JRIG
01-29-2004, 10:36 AM
I'm sorry. I thought this thread was about Willie Harris and Aaron Rowand at the top of our lineup.

CubKilla
01-29-2004, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I'm sorry. I thought this thread was about Willie Harris and Aaron Rowand at the top of our lineup.

LOL! Me too. I was thinking Harris/Valentin though actually.

carusochop
01-29-2004, 01:26 PM
The Cubs were pretty bad when MacPhail tried to play GM, but Hendry looks like he has a halfway decent idea of what he is doing. However the Tribune Company still only cares about turning a profit, not about winning. They know that the idiotic Cub fans will come to that craphole of a ballpark whether the team loses a hundred games or wins a hundred games.

ode to veeck
01-29-2004, 02:21 PM
I'd have to say I finally gave up on the Hawks a few years back for precisely this reason.

The Expos and Brewers rate in the same group with the Sox, even though 99% of their troubles have to do with the owner, not the GM, and its the same bozo, the pathetic MLB commish

KingXerxes
01-29-2004, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by carusochop
The Cubs were pretty bad when MacPhail tried to play GM, but Hendry looks like he has a halfway decent idea of what he is doing. However the Tribune Company still only cares about turning a profit, not about winning. They know that the idiotic Cub fans will come to that craphole of a ballpark whether the team loses a hundred games or wins a hundred games.

Please..............If that's true, the perhaps you can enlighten me as to why the Trib is spending money this offseason? If what you say is even remotely rooted in reality - shouldn't they be the team with the self-imposed salary cap of $58mm?

SEALgep
01-29-2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Please..............If that's true, the perhaps you can enlighten me as to why the Trib is spending money this offseason? Because they realized how much their profits increased when they win. Please they are spending the bare minimum of what they've made from last year. Scalping their own tickets, more seats next year, money from the roof tops, playoff tickets, sell outs for playoff push and playoffs- what did they raise payroll to? Like a little under 10 million. That doesn't cut it, they should have both Pudge and Maddux, instead of low balling one and ignoring the other.

Iwritecode
01-29-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Please..............If that's true, the perhaps you can enlighten me as to why the Trib is spending money this offseason? If what you say is even remotely rooted in reality - shouldn't they be the team with the self-imposed salary cap of $58mm?

I don't think the Tribune is in it completely for the money, but I don't believe they weren't making lots of it when the team was losing and still drawing 2 million plus every year. Especially since it has come out now that they have been running their own ticket broker service a block away from the stadium.

Also, don't forget they're now getting money from all the building owners accross the street that sells seats on the top of their buildings.

Do they have to pay anything to play in the stadium since they own it?

Making money may not be priorty #1 but I'm sure it's a close second.



:reinsy

What kind of philosophy is that?!?

Iwritecode
01-29-2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Because they realized how much their profits increased when they win. Please they are spending the bare minimum of what they've made from last year. Scalping their own tickets, more seats next year, money from the roof tops, playoff tickets, sell outs for playoff push and playoffs- what did they raise payroll to? Like a little under 10 million. That doesn't cut it, they should have both Pudge and Maddux, instead of low balling one and ignoring the other.

Wow, you sound like some Cubs fans I know...

Doesn't anyone find it ironic that Cubs fans are complaining that a 95 million dollar payroll is too low???

KingXerxes
01-29-2004, 03:48 PM
But carusochop's initial assertion was that:

1. All the Tribune cares about is a profit.
2. They realize that Cub Fans will show up whether the team wins 100 games or loses 100 games.

If both are to be taken as true - then it makes no sense for the Tribune to spend money over the off season as it will do nothing to increase their profits. Their approach is not that simplistic.

Is the Tribune interested in profits? Hell yes, but they go about it smartly. You watch - they are going to try and stay competitive over the next couple of seasons, and they are going to raise ticket prices through the roof. It doesn't take a genius to realize that when 10,000 people are standing on Waveland Avenue during a playoff game - well then you've got a pretty unsatisified demand curve on your tickets. If the White Sox ownership had an ounce of brains - they would pick up on this and start marketing their club as the affordable alternative, thereby picking up fans. In order to do this though, they would have to stabilize their ticket prices....NOT RAISE THEM!

I don't think the Tribune thinks Cub fans are stupid - they don't act like it. Can we say the same about Reinsdorf?

SEALgep
01-29-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Wow, you sound like some Cubs fans I know...

Doesn't anyone find it ironic that Cubs fans are complaining that a 95 million dollar payroll is too low???

It's closer to 85 million, but ya it's ironic. If you think about it though, they really do screw their fans. Their revenue is similar to the Red Sox, yet they spend far less. That's the problem with organiztions running teams, at least JR does want to win. I know that statemnt will creat debate, but I believe he is spending within his means to the extent that he won't lose money. Regardless of the opinion of it, if more money is made this year, he will raise the payroll. The Cubs will only do enough to create interest so the stands are filled.

KingXerxes
01-29-2004, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
The Cubs will only do enough to create interest so the stands are filled.

Fair enough - but give them credit for filling the stands.

What - exactly - is Reinsdorf doing?

SEALgep
01-29-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Fair enough - but give them credit for filling the stands.

What - exactly - is Reinsdorf doing?
Completely different scenerio. The Cubs have more money. It isn't what you want to hear, but their fans spent money there without a new stadium. Their payroll has been just as bad as the Sox for a long time. They've made millions on it because they never spent their excessive profits, and they still aren't. JR puts in what he gets. He doesn't make a lot of money on the Sox. It's just bad business to spend excessively out of your means, it would only solidify us having a bleak future.

Keep in mind they aren't filling the stands because of their brilliant marketing campaign. People love the Cubs and they spend their money there regardless of how the team is doing. We should be so lucky, or any team for that matter.

KingXerxes
01-29-2004, 04:34 PM
First off - neither you nor I have any idea as to how much money is made (or lost) by either the Tribune or by Reinsdorf, so don't start assuming things and using them as filler for your argument.

Secondly - Everybody has got to quit acting like the all the Tribune has to do is click on auto-pilot when it comes to running the Cubs. When they bought this team from Wrigley, they Cubs weren't drawing all that well. In their first few years of ownership there was talk of moving them, or tearing down the Wrigley Field scoreboard and replacing it with a DiamondVision type of thing etc. They have done an incredible job in managing the process of marketing and branding the Cubs. Uniform changes are subtlely introduced, stadium changes are minor etc. etc. Were they ever tempted to move to Addison and build a 50,000 seat stadium? Sure - but they were smart enough to stop themselves.

Now let's juxtapose this to the White Sox ownership moves

SEALgep
01-29-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
First off - neither you nor I have any idea as to how much money is made (or lost) by either the Tribune or by Reinsdorf, so don't start assuming things and using them as filler for your argument.

Secondly - Everybody has got to quit acting like the all the Tribune has to do is click on auto-pilot when it comes to running the Cubs. When they bought this team from Wrigley, they Cubs weren't drawing all that well. In their first few years of ownership there was talk of moving them, or tearing down the Wrigley Field scoreboard and replacing it with a DiamondVision type of thing etc. They have done an incredible job in managing the process of marketing and branding the Cubs. Uniform changes are subtlely introduced, stadium changes are minor etc. etc. Were they ever tempted to move to Addison and build a 50,000 seat stadium? Sure - but they were smart enough to stop themselves.

Now let's juxtapose this to the White Sox ownership moves
LOL- It's public knowledge that the Cubs make lots of money. What they do with it isn't. I guess under your argument that uniform changes are a good way to spend tens of millions in profits. Hey if the Sox did it, maybe we would compete with the Yankees payroll. Scoreboard replacements? Come on, you think these things are even denting their cost structure. You know why they haven't changed stadiums? That is why everybody loves them and they make so much. Wrigley is a landmark. People come in from out of town and ask me to go to Wrigley. It's how it is, and I can't believe you think different. It costs them money to build a new stadium and it would piss off their fans. Translation- more costs and less revenue. You consider them business geniuses because they haven't done that. I don't know man, they got you fooled.

KingXerxes
01-30-2004, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
LOL- It's public knowledge that the Cubs make lots of money. What they do with it isn't. I guess under your argument that uniform changes are a good way to spend tens of millions in profits. Hey if the Sox did it, maybe we would compete with the Yankees payroll. Scoreboard replacements? Come on, you think these things are even denting their cost structure. You know why they haven't changed stadiums? That is why everybody loves them and they make so much. Wrigley is a landmark. People come in from out of town and ask me to go to Wrigley. It's how it is, and I can't believe you think different. It costs them money to build a new stadium and it would piss off their fans. Translation- more costs and less revenue. You consider them business geniuses because they haven't done that. I don't know man, they got you fooled.

If it's "public knowledge" that the Cubs make lots of money - how come I can't find their financials at the library? Look - I have no doubt that the Tribune is making money on the Cubs, but neither you nor I know how much.

SEALgep, sometimes the best moves you make are the one's you don't. When Reinsdorf held the city and state hostage some years back, and demanded a new stadium he was widely perceived as some sort of genius, until it became tragically obvious that he had to rebuild a "White Sox identity" which was made necessary by his "genius". He was close in the early to mid 90's but he has been floundering ever since.

Let's say Reinsdorf owned the Cubs instead of the White Sox. Do you honestly think he would have waited for four or five years of negotiations and court battles just to get lights? To you think he would sit still while the city drags its feet over adding seats to Wrigley Field? Do you think he would have seen the linkage of his product's uniforms/ballpark/scoreboard? The answer to all these is no, and the reason it's no is because the Tribune does an infinitely better job of running the Cubs than Reinsdorf does in running the White Sox. Had he bought the Cubs instead, they would be wearing purple and mauve uniforms while playing in front of 18,000 loyal fans at the Richard Ogilvie Gamedome in Marengo, IL.