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View Full Version : Do we run a smart organization?


jeremyb1
01-24-2004, 01:30 PM
What keeps me up at night is the notion that the only way to win on a midlevel budget is to get incredibly lucky or to be significantly smarter than other organizations (A's, Blue Jays). I think its clear that a number or organizations are incredibly stupid and many fans could run a team better. For example look at Texas (you don't improve your pitching by signing a player to a $250 million contract), Detroit (huge long term contracts to players like Bobby Higinson and Damion Easley), or Arizona (waive a 3B with better numbers than the player you're acquiring because you don't understand what walks and OBP are and then trade one of your best pitchers to acquire that player).

Our organization occassionally acquires some really good players based on scouting (Marte, Loaiza, Jimenez) but often seems to make completely unintelligent moves based on an inability to evaluate established players (the Ritchie trade, the failed Garland-Erstad trade, Wells-Sirotka, placing Jimenez on waivers). Furthermore as I've commented before, we rarely seem to swoop in and acquire established players that are underrated by other clubs. I feel as though the Politte move is an exception to this rule but what are the odds of seeing KW make a smart move along the lines of Boston's signing of Mueller, Millar, and Ortiz last season? Or consider KC's signing of Stairs and acquisition and resigning of Leskanic. These types of smart moves are key to success and our organization never seems to make them.

Finally, I wonder if this type of bad decision making trickles down into other key aspects of the organization unseen by the fans. I'm not sure anyone notices but it was noted in the Tribune the other day that we've hired Dale Torborg (Jeff's son) as conditioning coordinator. Torborg wrestled in the WWF as "the demon" and became infamous for chasing and screaming at Antonio Alfonseca around the Marlins' training facilities in spring training one season trying to intimidate Alfonseca into stepping onto a scale. He was then fired when his dad was canned. Stop and ask yourself, does this sound like a really smart move? Would a team such as the A's who are reknowned for winning by outsmarting the competition hire Dale Torborg?

Lip Man 1
01-24-2004, 01:37 PM
Jeremy asks:

Do we run a smart organization?

Is this a trick question?

LOL

Lip

ondafarm
01-24-2004, 02:03 PM
I have a box of rocks that could run the organization better.

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 04:09 PM
In response to the Tolberg son's hiring, it certainly is a good move. Anyone who chases Antonio Alfonsaco around to scare him to death is okay in my book, lol. You know when an organiztion as big as major league ball clubs are, there are going to be good decisions and bad. That's not an excuse, but things could be worse for the Sox. We certainly aren't the best, but not the worst either. Does that general response satisfy your specific question? Lol.

tlebar318
01-24-2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
In response to the Tolberg son's hiring, it certainly is a good move. Anyone who chases Antonio Alfonsaco around to scare him to death is okay in my book, lol. You know when an organiztion as big as major league ball clubs are, there are going to be good decisions and bad. That's not an excuse, but things could be worse for the Sox. We certainly aren't the best, but not the worst either. Does that general response satisfy your specific question? Lol.

SEAL-
Just wanted to say that I am new to this website also but a Sox fan for all of my 38 years. I just want to commend you on your posts to date that try to stay positive(as hard as that is sometimes) :D: I believe we will be ok also--hope springs eternal every spring for me! And if it doesn't work out we always have the rallying cry of "wait till next" right? Beer me! :gulp:
p.s.--I still think we will pull the trigger on a major move of some sort--I might have too much alcohol in my system but I like the new middle reliever/closer!

SouthBendSox
01-24-2004, 05:57 PM
well, lets see

KW is a bumbling idiot who has ruined what should have been a mini-post indians dynasty in the ALC, cementing that the sox will be second fiddle- by a long shot- to the flubs for the next decade

tlebar318
01-24-2004, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by SouthBendSox
well, lets see

KW is a bumbling idiot who has ruined what should have been a mini-post indians dynasty in the ALC, cementing that the sox will be second fiddle- by a long shot- to the flubs for the next decade

I feel your pain...BUT is KW really the problem? I tend to think, either rightly or wrongly(I think those are words) that the blame lies higher up--by limiting the payroll to $58 Million per JR does he really have any other option than to try and capture "lightning in a bottle" by making risky or suspect moves that are affordable?..that said I could have done without the Todd Ritchie trade--I would have taken my chances with the kids we had...Beer me! :gulp:

Lip Man 1
01-24-2004, 06:16 PM
I sent Jeremy's blurb on to some of my friends in the Chicago media. Les Grobstein (known as grobber 33 here at WSI) had this to say:

"I'm happy for Dale. He worked with us at the old Loop AM 1000 when he was still at NU. He's not voiatile like many think. Mr.'6 fingers' is a good guy, but was overweight and Dale was simply trying to get him in shape. His overweight situation with the Cubs led to injuries and alot of bad outings---you favorite was no doubt the fat one he threw to Valentin at Comiskey last June 28. As Cub Fans,we dont have to worry about him no more. Since the Sox have brought in the alltime saves leader from the land of the riaising sun, there is no chance they would think of 're-unting' Dale with Alfonseca. "

Les

Dadawg_77
01-24-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by tlebar318
I feel your pain...BUT is KW really the problem? I tend to think, either rightly or wrongly(I think those are words) that the blame lies higher up--by limiting the payroll to $58 Million per JR does he really have any other option than to try and capture "lightning in a bottle" by making risky or suspect moves that are affordable?..that said I could have done without the Todd Ritchie trade--I would have taken my chances with the kids we had...Beer me! :gulp:

Yes, example Oakland's payroll is 20 million less then ours. When was the last time they won less then 90 games?

tlebar318
01-24-2004, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77


Yes, example Oakland's payroll is 20 million less then ours. When was the last time they won less then 90 games?

I get what you are saying but love him or hate him there is only 1 Billy Beane....KW has taken chances and some sure things have worked against him as well--I was very excited to get David Wells and we see how that worked out....Why not us? Why not now? is my feeling---if the Marlins can draw 5K all year and then when a World Series what the heck--I will continue to drink the White Sox Kool-Aid...and pray alot! :D: It is Miller Time! :gulp:

duke of dorwood
01-24-2004, 08:02 PM
KW is in a daze-has gained no savvy in the time he has been GM and apparently does not have the respect of other GM's. The regressing of the team falls on his shoulders, and Oakland is a great example.

beckett21
01-24-2004, 08:28 PM
Not to be a downer, but the problem with eternal optimism is that looking at the powers that be with a critical eye is what MAKES us Sox fans--a higher life form. If we just wanted to conform and cheer every move our bumbling ownership makes (or in this case fails to make) then we would be Cub fans. After all, the only thing that matters more to Cub fans than winning is going out to the ballpark and getting tanked. :gulp: Wait a minute, Cub fans care nothing about winning. :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

Subsidizing this mediocrity sends management the message that winning doesn't matter. The only--ONLY-- way to make them care is to affect their pocketbooks. Trust me, I am writing this as a true Sox fan--have been since '77--and of course the argument has always been *well we don't get as much fan support, revenue, media coverage as the Cubs, blah blah blah* The point is--Cub fans REALLY DON'T CARE. When you sell out every game win or lose, why SHOULD you spend more money?? Reinsdorf is a businessman; all he cares about are bottom lines. So if we as fans blindly support him, we are in reality hurting our own cause.

The optimists are going to bash me, saying things like *well I support the team win or lose, you are not a true fan, etc.* and that is FINE. I respect your opinion and you are more than entitled to it. You can spend your entertainment dollar however you want. But do not tell me I am not a *fan* because I am trying to look at things with an objective, critical eye. It is cool to have people who are rah-rah all the time, I have a very good friend who is the same way and we argue constantly. Maybe some of *the kids can play*--but how long have we been hearing that?? I gave them a lot of credit last year with the moves they made. KW and JR did make a nice effort, and picked up some key players. Unfortunately those guys laid an egg, but I do not fault KW or JR for those moves (Colon,Alomar, Everett). Hey, they really tried to win. This year they seem to have begun waving the white flag before we even hit Tuscon. We should be going for the throat in a very winnable division, but we are sitting back waiting for something good to happen. We have to make our own breaks. Maybe Rowand and Harris can play, maybe the pitching will be good, maybe I am totally wrong--and I would happily admit it. There is still time to make some moves, and hopefully the powers that be will realize that we don't have enough to be competetive league-wide, forget the division. But for them to wait for us to make the first move as fans--that is unreal and asinine. White Sox fans are as die-hard a bunch as they come--I believe we truly are the best fans because we have to put up with so much from across town, along with this small-market mentality. But you are going to ask me for MY hard earned money to see a watered-down product? No way. :angry:

Sorry I have been ranting so long I forgot my point! :D:

Thank you for letting me vent, and feel free to rip me a new one--I can take it! :smile:

GO SOX--believe it or not! :cool:

jeremyb1
01-24-2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I sent Jeremy's blurb on to some of my friends in the Chicago media. Les Grobstein (known as grobber 33 here at WSI) had this to say:

"I'm happy for Dale. He worked with us at the old Loop AM 1000 when he was still at NU. He's not voiatile like many think. Mr.'6 fingers' is a good guy, but was overweight and Dale was simply trying to get him in shape. His overweight situation with the Cubs led to injuries and alot of bad outings---you favorite was no doubt the fat one he threw to Valentin at Comiskey last June 28. As Cub Fans,we dont have to worry about him no more. Since the Sox have brought in the alltime saves leader from the land of the riaising sun, there is no chance they would think of 're-unting' Dale with Alfonseca. "

Les

That was good of you to do, Lip. I found that response pretty interesting. I'm the first to admit that I don't know enough about Torborg to be certain that he's a bad hire. Mostly, it just seems to me that a conditioning coordinator that movitaves players by chasing them and nearly becoming involved in altercations does have a somewhat volatile personality.

RKMeibalane
01-24-2004, 10:31 PM
Do we run a smart organization?

No.

SoxFan76
01-24-2004, 11:52 PM
beckett,

well said. i agree with you. i will always be a sox fan, i will always be optimistic, i will always support my team. but i will not go crazy every year for no reason (coughcubscough). im not buying my playoff tickets if the sox are in 1st place at the all star break. (coughcubscough).

we shouldnt show up for a 3rd place team. like it has been said, being a sox fan is about being a fan of baseball. if i want beer and women (wrigley), i can go to a strip club. if i want baseball, ill go to comiskey. showing up for a team that is not making an effort to win is pointless. it proves reinsdorf doesnt need to make an effort to win. that is basically the story of the cubs. people show up, why try to win?

beckett21
01-24-2004, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I'm the first to admit that I don't know enough about Torborg to be certain that he's a bad hire. Mostly, it just seems to me that a conditioning coordinator that movitaves players by chasing them and nearly becoming involved in altercations does have a somewhat volatile personality.

Honestly I can't see your concern here. I mean, after all, since when have professional wrestlers been known to go off in a steroid-induced rage?

gosox41
01-25-2004, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
What keeps me up at night is the notion that the only way to win on a midlevel budget is to get incredibly lucky or to be significantly smarter than other organizations (A's, Blue Jays). I think its clear that a number or organizations are incredibly stupid and many fans could run a team better. For example look at Texas (you don't improve your pitching by signing a player to a $250 million contract), Detroit (huge long term contracts to players like Bobby Higinson and Damion Easley), or Arizona (waive a 3B with better numbers than the player you're acquiring because you don't understand what walks and OBP are and then trade one of your best pitchers to acquire that player).

Our organization occassionally acquires some really good players based on scouting (Marte, Loaiza, Jimenez) but often seems to make completely unintelligent moves based on an inability to evaluate established players (the Ritchie trade, the failed Garland-Erstad trade, Wells-Sirotka, placing Jimenez on waivers). Furthermore as I've commented before, we rarely seem to swoop in and acquire established players that are underrated by other clubs. I feel as though the Politte move is an exception to this rule but what are the odds of seeing KW make a smart move along the lines of Boston's signing of Mueller, Millar, and Ortiz last season? Or consider KC's signing of Stairs and acquisition and resigning of Leskanic. These types of smart moves are key to success and our organization never seems to make them.

Finally, I wonder if this type of bad decision making trickles down into other key aspects of the organization unseen by the fans. I'm not sure anyone notices but it was noted in the Tribune the other day that we've hired Dale Torborg (Jeff's son) as conditioning coordinator. Torborg wrestled in the WWF as "the demon" and became infamous for chasing and screaming at Antonio Alfonseca around the Marlins' training facilities in spring training one season trying to intimidate Alfonseca into stepping onto a scale. He was then fired when his dad was canned. Stop and ask yourself, does this sound like a really smart move? Would a team such as the A's who are reknowned for winning by outsmarting the competition hire Dale Torborg?

The Sox make some intelligent moves, and some of them blow my mind. It's not necessarily on the field moves either. Why do they insist on cheaping out on managment? You would think JR would realize right now that strong management matters. Why does Rob Gallas still work here? Rumors aside, for a PR director this guy has pissed off a lot of fans.

The Sox do some things well, but not much.

Bob

gosox41
01-25-2004, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by tlebar318
I feel your pain...BUT is KW really the problem? I tend to think, either rightly or wrongly(I think those are words) that the blame lies higher up--by limiting the payroll to $58 Million per JR does he really have any other option than to try and capture "lightning in a bottle" by making risky or suspect moves that are affordable?..that said I could have done without the Todd Ritchie trade--I would have taken my chances with the kids we had...Beer me! :gulp:

The ironinc thing is the Sox trade Foulke for Koch last off season to save a million dollars (they wound up splitting the difference in salary) only to have KW go out there and sign Koch for more money in 2004 then Foulke ever made with the Sox in a single season.

That trade hurts in soooooo many ways. The long term ramifications of that trade are going to haunt this organization for many, many years.

Bob

TornLabrum
01-25-2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
i will always be a sox fan, i will always be optimistic...

It's easy to say you'll always be optimistic when you're 18 years old. See me in another 45 years. That's how long its been since I've seen a Sox team in a World Series. (I was half as old as you are now when that happened. I'm three times as old as you now.The last time the Sox won a pennant was 2.5 times your age.

I'm not trying to bring you down, just warn you that "always" is a long, long time.

cornball
01-25-2004, 11:34 AM
The Sox organization is confusing to say the least. They talk out of both sides of their mouth and cant decide if they want to be a contender or not.

Since the year 2000 the payroll has gone from (in millions) 31 to 65 to 57 to 51 respectively. This years budget is to be at 58-60, yet KW has said as recently as Friday, the club does not and has not made a profit. Seems misleading. The aveage salary last year in the leauge was 71, you can't be serious, with a 60 million payroll, remembering the average playoff team was at 84 million.

The A's, Marlins and Angels break the traditional theory, however when several young players (mostly pitchers) come up at the same time and play at a high level you have a chance. Unfortunatly, as seen in Minn, Oakland and other places when these players areable to leave, they usually do.

To form a winner at the low payroll we have established you have to be lucky with the young players. This organization trys to build only through trade, in which you never add to the nucleus without taking something away. Blame JR, he is one one giving the talking points, which do not make sense if you look at them over time.

rdivaldi
01-25-2004, 12:01 PM
You can't really argue one way or the other, which should tell you the story. The Sox run a very middling organization. We're definitely not the Pirates, Brewers, or Tigers, but we're also not the Yankees, Braves, A's, or Mariners.

Over the past 10 years this team is 800-751, a .516 winning percentage. Obviously not too bad, but then again we haven't won a playoff game either.

All in all it comes down to the fact that the hardcore White Sox fan is tired of watching the years float by without a World Series championship. We demand more of the team than the average fans, and probably more than the hardcore fans of other teams.

So the answer to the question is "sort of"...

Lip Man 1
01-25-2004, 01:36 PM
To help answer the question of why Reinsdorf won't hire experienced front office people.

“The modus operandi of both Jerry Reinsdorf and Jerry Krause is that they like to find and hire people, kind of discover people and give them a chance. I think you can see that with the White Sox. They could have hired Tommy Lasorda, but they went for Jerry Manuel, who nobody had ever heard of before, to be the team’s manager.”– “Chip” Schaefer to Roland Lazenby. From the book Blood On The Horns. Pg. 58.

I take that to mean in addition to the cost factor of paying for top experienced people, the "ego" factor of which Uncle Jerry has a massive one. He wants to 'discover' the next 'star.' (of course it doesn't hurt that the person he hires is loyal to him and in many cases couldn't get a job elsewhere so he's not going to go against the company line.)

Lip

beckett21
01-25-2004, 02:03 PM
:reinsy

"You guys like what I did to the Bulls? And they MADE me money!"

SoxxoS
01-25-2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
To help answer the question of why Reinsdorf won't hire experienced front office people.

“The modus operandi of both Jerry Reinsdorf and Jerry Krause is that they like to find and hire people, kind of discover people and give them a chance. I think you can see that with the White Sox. They could have hired Tommy Lasorda, but they went for Jerry Manuel, who nobody had ever heard of before, to be the team’s manager.”– “Chip” Schaefer to Roland Lazenby. From the book Blood On The Horns. Pg. 58.

I take that to mean in addition to the cost factor of paying for top experienced people, the "ego" factor of which Uncle Jerry has a massive one. He wants to 'discover' the next 'star.' (of course it doesn't hurt that the person he hires is loyal to him and in many cases couldn't get a job elsewhere so he's not going to go against the company line.)

Lip

And Reinsdorf REALLY sucks at finding the "next star" especially at the managing level.

Terry Bevington. Whoa.
Jerry Manuel. Oh boy.
Bill Cartwright. Hmm hmm.
Jerry Krause-For all the people saying how well he left the Bulls..that is hilarious.
Ron Schuler. Not a big fan.

Those 5 are all horrible coaches/GM's. But the worst part about it is HOW LONG Reinsdorf stays with these clowns. Bevington had to motion to the bullpen for a reliever that wasn't there to get canned. Krause stepped down himself (thank God). Manuel should have been fired last June. Cartwright was decent and got the short end of the stick when Pax was hired. Schuler didn't do anything great for the organization and made more than his fair share of mistakes.

So basically, not only does he hire unproven guys to find the next "star" coach or GM, he stays with them ENTIRELY too long...which is a recipe for disaster.

beckett21
01-25-2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
And Reinsdorf REALLY sucks at finding the "next star" especially at the managing level.

Terry Bevington. Whoa.
Jerry Manuel. Oh boy.
Bill Cartwright. Hmm hmm.
Jerry Krause-For all the people saying how well he left the Bulls..that is hilarious.
Ron Schuler. Not a big fan.

Those 5 are all horrible coaches/GM's. But the worst part about it is HOW LONG Reinsdorf stays with these clowns. Bevington had to motion to the bullpen for a reliever that wasn't there to get canned. Krause stepped down himself (thank God). Manuel should have been fired last June. Cartwright was decent and got the short end of the stick when Pax was hired. Schuler didn't do anything great for the organization and made more than his fair share of mistakes.

So basically, not only does he hire unproven guys to find the next "star" coach or GM, he stays with them ENTIRELY too long...which is a recipe for disaster.

Let's not forget "Pink" Floyd and our current *star* KW :angry:

*Next star* --read: *Cheap hire, convenient scapegoat*

Hangar18
01-25-2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
The ironinc thing is the Sox trade Foulke for Koch last off season to save a million dollars (they wound up splitting the difference in salary) only to have KW go out there and sign Koch for more money in 2004 then Foulke ever made with the Sox in a single season.

That trade hurts in soooooo many ways. The long term ramifications of that trade are going to haunt this organization for many, many years.

Bob

It is this kind of Thinking, Signing/Trading Players based on "Affording" them, that Continues to Hurt this Team Year after Year after Year. Isnt that something how we got Burned on the Koch Deal? Makeing the trade to save a Million Bucks?
Now we need another Closer. Dumb. We havnt had a 2B since Ray Durham, whom we simply Let Go because we "Couldnt Afford" him. Not only did we lose a 2B, we Lost a :
1. a Top of the Order Batter,
2. a Guy With Speed,
3. Guy who could HIT.
Letting him Go has Set Us Back BigTime, Look how many DoublePlays we hit into Last year. Look how many times weve had a runner on with 2 outs, and NOT be able to Steal Second, only to have Thomas and Konerko ground to Second for the Force Out and End a Rally. Look how we Played Station-to-Station Baseball for most of the Year last season.

When We "Lost" Durham, We really "Lost" 4 Players, not just one. Look what theyve been doing since then to replace him? Almost Traded one of our young pitchers and minor leaguers to the Angels for a LeadOff guy. Ironic that one of the SOX biggest weaknesses, and something were looking for
is a Guy who can:
1. Bat at top of Order
2. Has Speed
3. Can Hit, and Hit Well
White Sox Baseball: Backward Decisionmaking since 1959

tlebar318
01-25-2004, 08:07 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hangar18
[B]

It is this kind of Thinking, Signing/Trading Players based on "Affording" them, that Continues to Hurt this Team Year after Year after Year. Isnt that something how we got Burned on the Koch Deal? Makeing the trade to save a Million Bucks?
Now we need another Closer. Dumb. We havnt had a 2B since Ray Durham, whom we simply Let Go because we "Couldnt Afford" him. Not only did we lose a 2B, we Lost a :
1. a Top of the Order Batter,
2. a Guy With Speed,
3. Guy who could HIT.
Letting him Go has Set Us Back BigTime, Look how many DoublePlays we hit into Last year. Look how many times weve had a runner on with 2 outs, and NOT be able to Steal Second, only to have Thomas and Konerko ground to Second for the Force Out and End a Rally. Look how we Played Station-to-Station Baseball for most of the Year last season.

I agree with you on most of your points BUT I saw Ray Durham in Tampa in 2002 and he was not even paying attention to the game :angry: --I was seated behind the Sox dugout and he was too busy talking to the people sitting next to me to worry about the action on the field--evidently they were old friends and during the 3rd inning were discussing where they were going after the game! Same game, next inning, Conseco was busy making post game plans with his brother Ozzie and his father who were in attendance--anyhow, to me sounds like a Jerry Manuel problem for not getting on their ace! Needless to say, Durham is not my favorite--Miller me! :gulp: