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Lip Man 1
01-24-2004, 01:42 AM
It's a gamble to go into the season at the [salary] number we are at. Hopefully , we will play up to the level where people support us and we can look toward June and July and add more pieces to the puzzle. -- Kenny Williams to White Sox . com

The essence of the White Sox philosophy under this ownership...other teams expect to win, the White Sox hope to. And if the team doesn't get off to the level where people will support them? (at least in ownership's minds) They'll gut the team in a fire sale and lose again for three more years.

What a pathetic operation.

Lip

RichFitztightly
01-24-2004, 01:56 AM
Yep, that sums it up perfectly. It seems to be the philosophy that got the Bears coaches fired. Are there any other franchises like this? It seems to be the perenial mood around all of Chicago. It's the reason why ESPN did a list of the 10 worst owners in sports and every owner in Chicago (Except the McCaskey's after the playoff season) was represented. That being said, if I hear one more piece about how Boston fans are so tortured, I'm going to go Elvis-style on my TV.


P.S. Getting close to losing that "New at WSI" tag

HITMEN OF 77
01-24-2004, 04:14 AM
IMO the thing is THIS team should be competitive NOW. We have decent enough pitching and some great hitters here. I don't know why we aren't considered a favorite in our division. Subtract half of JM's mistakes last year that cost us games we and win the division by 2 or 3 games.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-24-2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by HITMEN OF 77
IMO the thing is THIS team should be competitive NOW. We have decent enough pitching and some great hitters here. I don't know why we aren't considered a favorite in our division. Subtract half of JM's mistakes last year that cost us games we and win the division by 2 or 3 games.

I disagree. We're very weak up the middle, C, SS, 2B, and CF. We have corner players of some value but our pitching staff is decimated. If it weren't for the unbalanced schedule and getting to play all those extra games in the A.L. Norris Division I doubt we would finish above .500.

I agree last year's team should have done better, but right now the 2004 Sox are a pale shadow of that ineptly-managed bunch.

:jerry
"That hurts."

jabrch
01-24-2004, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by HITMEN OF 77
I don't know why we aren't considered a favorite in our division.

We have no 5th starter. We probably don't have a 4th starter either. Crash is playing CF and Harris at 2B.

If that's not enough to explain why we aren't a favorite, I don't have much to tell you.

voodoochile
01-24-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by RichFitztightly
Yep, that sums it up perfectly. It seems to be the philosophy that got the Bears coaches fired. Are there any other franchises like this? It seems to be the perenial mood around all of Chicago. It's the reason why ESPN did a list of the 10 worst owners in sports and every owner in Chicago (Except the McCaskey's after the playoff season) was represented. That being said, if I hear one more piece about how Boston fans are so tortured, I'm going to go Elvis-style on my TV.


Yep, Chicago sports ownership has almost always been pathetic. Ever since Free Agency became the norm, they have succeeded far more at failing than at putting successful teams on the field - the MJ years not withstanding.

It's sad.

Ozzie better get this team off to a hot start and get the fans coming out, or the WFT is going to look like a drop in the bucket when they get through with this team in July. Loaiza, Maggs, Lee and Frank will all be on the block.

voodoochile
01-24-2004, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by HITMEN OF 77
IMO the thing is THIS team should be competitive NOW. We have decent enough pitching and some great hitters here. I don't know why we aren't considered a favorite in our division. Subtract half of JM's mistakes last year that cost us games we and win the division by 2 or 3 games.

That's an indictment of the division, not an endorsement of the Sox. In fact, because the division is so winnable, it makes the Sox lack of movement that much more perplexing and disturbing, IMO.

$10-12M a few months ago for a #3 starter and a CF/2B who can leadoff would have made this team a favorite in the division.

HITMEN OF 77
01-24-2004, 12:58 PM
If the team stays the same as of right now, we will have no problem putting runs on the board (MO, FT, PK, CL) and our pitching is decent. MB and EL are a great 1-2 punch and I feel Garland will come around this year. If DW and SS are #4 #5 and have at least decent years with maybe 10 or so wins apiece, I feel we win the division. Maybe I'm wrong but that's the way I see it.

jeremyb1
01-24-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I disagree. We're very weak up the middle, C, SS, 2B, and CF. We have corner players of some value but our pitching staff is decimated. If it weren't for the unbalanced schedule and getting to play all those extra games in the A.L. Norris Division I doubt we would finish above .500.

I agree last year's team should have done better, but right now the 2004 Sox are a pale shadow of that ineptly-managed bunch.

:jerry
"That hurts."

I disagree. It doesn't matter where we're weak on the field, it only matters how weak we are at how many positions. I disagree that we're weak at cather. Olivo is an outstanding defensive catcher and he only has to pick up his offensive game a few small notches to become a solid offensive catcher. I completely fail to understand how we're weak at SS, by far one of our strongest positions. I'd argue Jose is our second best position player after Maggs. He's certainly better than Carlos. He's one of the best hitting SS's in baseball especially if we platoon him and his defense is outstanding.

2B and CF are question marks but we benefit from three decent options in CF at a position that is weak throughout the majors. We're in the worst division in baseball here its not as though a weakness at a couple of positions takes us out of the running.

Again with our staff we lost some key players but there are still pretty good odds that our club will have the best rotation in the division. Our top three starters are solid and we have a number of solid options to choose from. Our 4th/5th starters won't win us a ton of games but they shouldn't lose every game they pitch either.

I was worried about the pen earlier but Marte is a stud, Wunsch is a rather good lefty, Politte should be effective, and Mr. Zero and Kotch don't lack potential to succeed. Furthermore we have some solid depth in that players like Ginter, Majewski, Munoz, Wright and Sanders can probably post an ERA better than Rick White did last season as the last couple guys in the pen.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-24-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I disagree. It doesn't matter where we're weak on the field, it only matters how weak we are at how many positions. I disagree that we're weak at cather. Olivo is an outstanding defensive catcher and he only has to pick up his offensive game a few small notches to become a solid offensive catcher. I completely fail to understand how we're weak at SS, by far one of our strongest positions. I'd argue Jose is our second best position player after Maggs. He's certainly better than Carlos. He's one of the best hitting SS's in baseball especially if we platoon him and his defense is outstanding.

2B and CF are question marks but we benefit from three decent options in CF at a position that is weak throughout the majors. We're in the worst division in baseball here its not as though a weakness at a couple of positions takes us out of the running....

Just to clarify what I meant about being weak up the middle, I was talking about the ballplayers who play there not their defense. I've pissed off a lot of posters around here because I pooh-pooh the "pitching and defense wins ballgames" crowd. Please don't confuse me with one of them. :smile:

I will state unequivocally that there isn't one single ballclub in MLB with (alleged) playoff aspirations fielding an everyday lineup as weak as what Olivo/Alomar (C), Harris (2B), Valentin (SS), and Rowand (CF) constitute for the Chicago White Sox. That was my sole point.

WSox8404
01-24-2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
It's a gamble to go into the season at the [salary] number we are at. Hopefully , we will play up to the level where people support us and we can look toward June and July and add more pieces to the puzzle. -- Kenny Williams to White Sox . com

The essence of the White Sox philosophy under this ownership...other teams expect to win, the White Sox hope to. And if the team doesn't get off to the level where people will support them? (at least in ownership's minds) They'll gut the team in a fire sale and lose again for three more years.

What a pathetic operation.

Lip

I agree wholeheartedly. Why wait until late in the season to see if we are in position to make a run at the playoffs? We should get some players now to make sure we are in position to make the playoffs. Seeing that we are close to KC and Minnesota in talent now, if we made a few moves now, we would be able to stay in first for most of the year. Then when we realize towards the end of the year that we are going to make the playoffs, we could even make more moves to try to make it further into the playoffs instead of going out in the first round. The way the organization is ran is a joke, and I could only hope that JR sells the team one day soon.

RKMeibalane
01-24-2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Just to clarify what I meant about being weak up the middle, I was talking about the ballplayers who play there not their defense. I've pissed off a lot of posters around here because I pooh-pooh the "pitching and defense wins ballgames" crowd. Please don't confuse me with one of them. :smile:

I will state unequivocally that there isn't one single ballclub in MLB with (alleged) playoff aspirations fielding an everyday lineup as weak as what Olivo/Alomar (C), Harris (2B), Valentin (SS), and Rowand (CF) constitute for the Chicago White Sox. That was my sole point.

I agree. Looking at the other teams in the American League with a legitimate chance of reaching the post-season, the White Sox are easily the weakest team at the positions mentioned above.

Here is a comparison with several other contenders:

White Sox: Olivo, Harris, Valentin, Rowand

Royals: Mayne, Fables, Berroa, Beltran

Yankees: Posada, Soriano, Jeter, Wiliams

Red Sox: Veritek, Bellhorn, Garciaparra, Damon

Mariners: Davis, Boone, Aurillia, Cameron

Twins: LeCroy, Guzman, Rivas, Hunter

The Sox still have an excellent chance to win their division, but only because the other teams they will be competing with are already weak in comparison. Managment needs to realize that the point of being involved in professional sports is to make a concerted effort to remain competitive. When a team has as many holes as the Sox do, there is naturally going to be some question as to whether or not remaining competitive is even possible. If the Sox were any other division, it wouldn't be.

ND_Sox_Fan
01-24-2004, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Olivo is an outstanding defensive catcher and he only has to pick up his offensive game a few small notches to become a solid offensive catcher.

Olivo is brutal. He has a very strong arm which makes people think he is good defensively, but he drops as many balls as he catches and is a very poor receiver and game caller. You say he needs to come up a few "SMALL" notches on offense - hell, he can't hit anything on the outter half of the plate or offspead. I would call those huge hurdles.

On a positive note, it will be nice to see some guys give 100% effort this year. Their 100% may not be as good as some giving 75%, but hustle is always fun to watch. Crash in center will give it 110% and will make things interesting on D. I would rather have him out there than Cameron or Singleton any day.

Valentine isn't as bad as people say either - he may make a pile of throwing errors, but he also gets to twice the balls a lot of guys do.

I will agree that Harris is a question mark, but I think he can be another one of the 110% group. I have faith that Ozzie may be able to get him bunting well.

raul12
01-24-2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Just to clarify what I meant about being weak up the middle, I was talking about the ballplayers who play there not their defense. I've pissed off a lot of posters around here because I pooh-pooh the "pitching and defense wins ballgames" crowd. Please don't confuse me with one of them. :smile:

I will state unequivocally that there isn't one single ballclub in MLB with (alleged) playoff aspirations fielding an everyday lineup as weak as what Olivo/Alomar (C), Harris (2B), Valentin (SS), and Rowand (CF) constitute for the Chicago White Sox. That was my sole point.

If it were only those positions, I wouldn't be as concerned, but given the fact that unless Konerko picks it up, we have by far the worst 1B in the Major Leagues (unless OzMan has more brains than JM and puts the Hurt at 1B), we lost 200+ quality innings pitched by losing Colon and have done nothing to address it. I expect that our bullpen will have a similar performance to last year hoping that Mr. Zero can pitch like he did two years ago in Japan.

With our line-up as it is, I hope to finish .500. When I was little, that was good enough (meant on average, half the games I went to, they won). Now that I'm more aware of the 86 years and counting....
:whiner:

jeremyb1
01-25-2004, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Just to clarify what I meant about being weak up the middle, I was talking about the ballplayers who play there not their defense. I've pissed off a lot of posters around here because I pooh-pooh the "pitching and defense wins ballgames" crowd. Please don't confuse me with one of them. :smile:

I will state unequivocally that there isn't one single ballclub in MLB with (alleged) playoff aspirations fielding an everyday lineup as weak as what Olivo/Alomar (C), Harris (2B), Valentin (SS), and Rowand (CF) constitute for the Chicago White Sox. That was my sole point.

I didn't necessarily think you meant the defense up the middle. What I don't understand, however, is the difference between the abilities of the players up the middle and outfield for instance. Why is C, 2B, SS, and CF more important than LF, CF, and RF (outside of the fact we're talking about four players compared to three)?

PaleHoseGeorge
01-25-2004, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I didn't necessarily think you meant the defense up the middle. What I don't understand, however, is the difference between the abilities of the players up the middle and outfield for instance. Why is C, 2B, SS, and CF more important than LF, CF, and RF (outside of the fact we're talking about four players compared to three)?

Corner positions are easier to fill because how well the ballplayer uses his glove isn't as critical. This is because aging and slow stars can usually be given a new role in a corner position where their lack of mobility isn't so critical. Thus having "strength up the middle" is usually the foundation of a good ball team. If you have those positions filled well, picking up the spare parts in the corner positions is relatively easy.

Naturally the Sox have it exactly bass ackwards. :smile:

StepsInSC
01-25-2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I completely fail to understand how we're weak at SS, by far one of our strongest positions. I'd argue Jose is our second best position player after Maggs. He's certainly better than Carlos. He's one of the best hitting SS's in baseball especially if we platoon him and his defense is outstanding.


Not sure I agree with this. Hitting .237 with a measly .313 OBP and twice as many strikeouts vs. walks doesn't make him more valuable than CLee in my humble opinion. I guess he had a decent OPS for a SS, but then again Rafael Furcal had a higher one than he did.

If he would just stop calling himself a switch hitter I could tolerate him better.

RichH55
01-25-2004, 04:11 PM
Starting off well is key...always has been


If we can start off well, I wouldnt be surprised to see us add a player like Jose Vidro who is in the last year of his deal