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View Full Version : Kenny says: "We're over budget!"


Mohoney
01-23-2004, 07:44 PM
What I want to know is, how can we be?

WE DON'T HAVE ANYBODY ANYMORE!

This just keeps getting worse...

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2004, 07:57 PM
The Sox have been overbudget for 100 years. Has anyone ever made one thin dime owning this outfit? I mean aside from the virtually unbroken appreciation in its value, of course...

faneidde
01-23-2004, 08:01 PM
It has to be Uribe. I knew we'd never be able to afford a middle infielder who makes up for his lack of offensive production by committing a lot of errors.

beckett21
01-23-2004, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by faneidde
It has to be Uribe. I knew we'd never be able to afford a middle infielder who makes up for his lack of offensive production by committing a lot of errors.

:D:

ode to veeck
01-23-2004, 08:23 PM
KW = chicken little

"the sky is falling, the sky is falling!"

chisox06
01-23-2004, 08:25 PM
Cant blame Kenny on this one, it's JR thats the mastermind on the 58 mil payroll. The fact that we have made virtually no moves and are still over budget kinda of makes clear how ridiculous that amount really is.

ode to veeck
01-23-2004, 08:26 PM
The Sox have been overbudget for 100 years. Has anyone ever made one thin dime owning this outfit? I mean aside from the virtually unbroken appreciation in its value, of course...

I think Comiskey made money ... like in the years he charged players for cleaning their uniforms

ode to veeck
01-23-2004, 08:27 PM
or ... KW = errant schoolboy

"the dog ate my homework!"

beckett21
01-23-2004, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
Cant blame Kenny on this one, it's JR thats the mastermind on the 58 mil payroll. The fact that we have made virtually no moves and are still over budget kinda of makes clear how ridiculous that amount really is.

Well, maybe if we weren't throwing oodles o' cash at Paulie and Botch we would have a little wiggle room...

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Mohoney
What I want to know is, how can we be?

WE DON'T HAVE ANYBODY ANYMORE!

This just keeps getting worse...

What are you talking about? All I've been hearing from everyone on this forum is that Rowand and Harris suck, we're going to lose the division, it's KW's fault. Give it a rest people. We haven't even played a game yet. This is a winable division, and we are as good as anyone in it. If you have specific stuff to comment on fine, but all this general crap about why we're going to suck forever. It sounds like us fans are a bunch of cry babies. Suck it up, we'll be fine. We can win with who we have.

JRIG
01-23-2004, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
Cant blame Kenny on this one, it's JR thats the mastermind on the 58 mil payroll. The fact that we have made virtually no moves and are still over budget kinda of makes clear how ridiculous that amount really is.

KW gave Billy Koch a $6.375 extension before he threw a pitch with the Sox.

KW gave Paul Konerko a huge contract extenstion based on one good half-season that will pay him $8 million this season.

KW gave Carlos Lee a $15 million extension even though he's been in a decline since 2000 except when batting in front of Frank or actually showing patience at the plate.

KW gave Mags a back-loaded contract that will pay him over $14 million this season.

KW picked up the option on Jose's contract at $5 million for this season.

KW traded away the team's other options at middle infield (Jimenez, Miles, Hummel) thus leaving Harris the only alternative at 2B this season.

So, how exactly can we not blame KW for this mess?

beckett21
01-23-2004, 09:09 PM
:KW

I have been blackballed...

RKMeibalane
01-23-2004, 09:18 PM
Reinsdorf is to blame for this mess. Yes, Ken Williams gave big contracts to average players, but Reinsdorf is the one who holds the keys to safe, so he's the one who should take the blame for the Sox money problems.

The fact that the Sox have been trying to trim payroll this entire off-season and can't do it should send a message to Reinsdorf that you can't win with a sixty-million-dollar payroll. The man needs to sell the team. He just doesn't get it.

That said, we need to be patient and let this scenario play iteslf out. The AL Central is a weaker than it has been in the past few years, so the Sox still have a great chance to reach the post-season. That's not quite what everyone here is hoping for, but it's a start. We'll know more about what kind of team the Sox will have once Spring Training rolls around. Until then, let's try to keep the complaining down to a minimum.

We need to remember that we are Sox fans, so let's get behind this team. They deserve at least that much, don't they?

JRIG
01-23-2004, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane

The fact that the Sox have been trying to trim payroll this entire off-season and can't do it should send a message to Reinsdorf that you can't win with a sixty-million-dollar payroll. The man needs to sell the team. He just doesn't get it.


Florida 91-71, $49.05 million
Oakland 96-66, $50.26 million
Toronto 86-76, $51.27 million
Minnesota 90-72, $55.5 million

All of those teams spent less than the Sox will this year and all finished with better records than the Sox last year.

You can win with the payroll the Sox will have this year. You can't do it spending tons of money on mediocre players.

The excuse that the money is not there will not fly with me. Not now, not ever.

Daver
01-23-2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by JRIG


KW traded away the team's other options at middle infield (Jimenez, Miles, Hummel) thus leaving Harris the only alternative at 2B this season.


I would have been as unhappy with any of those three starting at second as I am with Harris.

Jiminez is the epitome of the "I don't care" player,Hummel was a decent player,but doesn't offer anything more than Harris does,and Miles was a bad defensive player that never managed to hit until he had been in the minors for seven years,and no one knows what happens when he faces MLB pitching.

So what does any of them have over Harris?

JRIG
01-23-2004, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I would have been as unhappy with any of those three starting at second as I am with Harris.

Jiminez is the epitome of the "I don't care" player,Hummel was a decent player,but doesn't offer anything more than Harris does,and Miles was a bad defensive player that never managed to hit until he had been in the minors for seven years,and no one knows what happens when he faces MLB pitching.

So what does any of them have over Harris?

I don't know that any of those guys would be an improvement (well, I do know Jimenez almost certainly would be). What is certain is that we have traded away all of the organizational dpth at the position, leaving us with no "Plan B" if Harris falls flat on his face.

doctor30th
01-23-2004, 09:51 PM
KW gave Carlos Lee a $15 million extension even though he's been in a decline since 2000 except when batting in front of Frank or actually showing patience at the plate.


I would hardly call Lee's performance last year a decline.

KW gave Mags a back-loaded contract that will pay him over $14 million this season.

When KW signed him to that contract alot of outfielders were getting 16 mil or more a year. We probably would have already lost magglio and he would be happier probably playing in NY making 15 mil a year if he didn't sign that contract.

JRIG
01-23-2004, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
I would hardly call Lee's performance last year a decline.



I'll post this again, because I find it extremely interesting:

Carlos Lee:
'00: .301/.345/.484
'01: .269/.321/.468
'02: .249/.318/.454
'03: .270/.314/.459

Those '02 numbers are from the first half of the season, before he started actually taking pitches. The '03 numbers are from when Lee batted anywhere but in front of Frank. The only times Lee has excelled is when:

a) he is patient at the plate -- .283/.402/.521 2nd half of '02
b) he bats in front of Frank -- .320/.349/.557 batting #2 in '03

It can be argued that Carlos Lee has been in a steady decline since 2000. The only time he shows glimpses of consistent production is when other circumstances help him out or he helps himself by being patient.

doctor30th
01-23-2004, 09:56 PM
Sure Decline.

And he only batted .260/.320/.459 when batting on tuesdays.

I mean he had 35 doubles, 31 HRs, and 113 RBIs in '03.

Yep thats decline all right.

WSox8404
01-23-2004, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
What are you talking about? All I've been hearing from everyone on this forum is that Rowand and Harris suck, we're going to lose the division, it's KW's fault. Give it a rest people. We haven't even played a game yet. This is a winable division, and we are as good as anyone in it. If you have specific stuff to comment on fine, but all this general crap about why we're going to suck forever. It sounds like us fans are a bunch of cry babies. Suck it up, we'll be fine. We can win with who we have.

So okay we can win the division. This division does suck, but what after that? With this team right now, how can we win the first round of the playoffs? With teams like Boston, New York, Oakland, Seattle, and even Baltimore now, we would never win the penant let alone the World Series. So yes we can win the division, but is that what we are going to settle for?

P.S. I do wanna stress CAN win the division, because right now we are even with the Twinkies and the Royals.

gogosoxgogo
01-23-2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
I'll post this again, because I find it extremely interesting:

Carlos Lee:
'00: .301/.345/.484
'01: .269/.321/.468
'02: .249/.318/.454
'03: .270/.314/.459

Those '02 numbers are from the first half of the season, before he started actually taking pitches. The '03 numbers are from when Lee batted anywhere but in front of Frank. The only times Lee has excelled is when:

a) he is patient at the plate -- .283/.402/.521 2nd half of '02
b) he bats in front of Frank -- .320/.349/.557 batting #2 in '03

It can be argued that Carlos Lee has been in a steady decline since 2000. The only time he shows glimpses of consistent production is when other circumstances help him out or he helps himself by being patient.

Ok... so what's the problem! If batting in the 2 slot is effective, we can bat him there! He's learned to be a lot more patient at the plate... that's working! It's not like he can't bat in the 2 slot or be patient at the plate.

JRIG
01-23-2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
Sure Decline.

And he only batted .260/.320/.459 when batting on tuesdays.

I mean he had 35 doubles, 31 HRs, and 113 RBIs in '03.

Yep thats decline all right.

And most of that because he hit in front of Frank Thomas.

Lee had 16 doubles in 253 at bats in front of Frank, but only 18 doubles in 351 at bats elsewhere in the lineup.

Lee had 14 HR in 253 at bats hitting in front of Frank, but only 16 HR in 351 at bats elsewhere in the lineup.

If you want to ignore this and just say Carlos Lee had a "breakout season", fine by me. I mean, that's what KW did too. But a decline every single season in OBP, and 3 out of 4 seasons in SLG when he's not hitting in front of Frank or taking pitches -- well, that's something I think should worry a GM.

doctor30th
01-23-2004, 10:24 PM
Actually I think the best thing about Carlos is how he bats with runners in scoring position.

.346/.378/.654 with a 1.032 OPS.

That's pretty good.

JRIG
01-23-2004, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Ok... so what's the problem! If batting in the 2 slot is effective, we can bat him there! He's learned to be a lot more patient at the plate... that's working! It's not like he can't bat in the 2 slot or be patient at the plate.

He can't be patient at the plate. He was for the last half of 2002, but then somebody got in his ear and said "be aggressive -- go for RBIs." He showed not a lick of patience last year.

And the problem with Lee hitting in the #2 slot is that everybody hits well there. Hell, Mike Caruso hit over .300 in that spot. You don't need to have a $15 million player on your roster who can only be effective hitting in front of one of the best hitters in MLB history.

doctor30th
01-23-2004, 10:31 PM
Well if you want to get technical all those numbers where not when he batted in front of frank, it was from when he batted 2nd cause several times he did so without frank being behind him.

And also he OBP didn't technically decline every single season, it has actually fluctuated every season.

I agree with gogosoxgogo, if he does that well batting second bat him there.

doctor30th
01-23-2004, 10:38 PM
And the problem with Lee hitting in the #2 slot is that everybody hits well there

I don't think everybody hits well there. Besides the point of the #2 slot is to get hits more than be patient, its the leadoff hitter where walks are more important.

He can't be patient at the plate

Ok but in the 2nd hole he was the most patient, 27 SO and 14 walks in 253 AB thats pretty patient even though the walk total isn't high that's pretty low for strikeouts with a full season that would only be in the 50-60 SO range with about 30 walks.

JRIG
01-23-2004, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
And also he OBP didn't technically decline every single season, it has actually fluctuated every season.


I'm disregarding the stats from the second half of 2002 when Lee was extremely patient and the times in 2003 when he hit 2nd. I did this not because it made my argument look better, but because those are the two times in his career there has been a big change in the circumstances surrounding his hitting, i.e. being patient and hitting in front of Frank.

Those numbers show:
Carlos Lee OBP:
'00: .345
'01: .321
'02: .318
'03: .314

A decline every season. Yes, Lee can bat 2nd, and he'll probably put up good power numbers. But he still won't show any patience. For $15 million, don't you want a little more from a player than to need to hit in front of a great hitter to be effective? I would.

doctor30th
01-23-2004, 10:46 PM
This is a pretty wierd argument considering that his OBP is higher when he bats 2nd. He didn't always bat Second in front of Frank and Frank thomas is in no way the feared hitter he was in his early years

At least once a pitchers Intentionally walked Carlos to get to Frank, I don't think Frank batting behind him has the effect you think it does, I think its more the fact that hes batting second.

gogosoxgogo
01-23-2004, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
For $15 million, don't you want a little more from a player than to need to hit in front of a great hitter to be effective? I would.

I'm still missing your point. I don't get the problem with putting a good hitter in the 2 hole. Castillo bats there. Jeter bats there. It's not as if the 2nd spot in the lineup is reserved only for crappy guys trying to get better by batting around good hitters. Lee was extremely effective batting 2nd last year and every stat you have brought up has said so. Therefore, there is no problem. Lee bats second, he hits well, the team does better.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2004, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
This is a pretty dumb argument considering that his OBP is higher when he bats 2nd. He didn't always bat Second in front of Frank and Frank thomas is in no way the feared hitter he was in his early years

At least once a pitchers Intentionally walked Carlos to get to Frank, I don't think Frank batting behind him has the effect you think it does, I think its more the fact that hes batting second.

Anybody hitting in front of Frank Thomas sees more fastballs. That's because pitchers don't want anybody on base when Thomas comes to the plate. They need to work in and out of the strike zone with Frank and let him take his walk if they aren't lucky enough to fool him into swinging at something out of the zone. Sure, Frank isn't the same hitter he was 5 or 10 years ago but then there has only been one Ted Williams in the history of baseball to compare with the Old Frank, too. He is still one of the best hitters in the game and easily the best hitter on the Sox (please don't start a fight over "DP" Magglio).

Aggressive hitters love fastballs. They don't have to worry about looking like an idiot by getting fooled. They just dial it up and swing from the heels. This perfectly describes Carlos Lee and (before him) Jose Valentin, too. Even a weak-hitting piece of **** like Mike Caruso managed to hit over .300 getting fastballs in front of Frank Thomas. This isn't even worth debating...

If there is an easier hitting spot in baseball than being an aggressive hitter batting #2 in front of Frank Thomas, I would love to hear about it. He hits for average, hits for power, and keeps the pitcher honest. He's less dangerous standing at first base with a walk than he is at homeplate with a runner on. That's why Magglio hits into all those DP's. The pitchers *know* they can get him to ground out and rack up Frank Thomas, too, all in one pitch.

But go ahead and argue...

I don't know anything about baseball, either.

:redneck

TheRockinMT
01-23-2004, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
KW gave Billy Koch a $6.375 extension before he threw a pitch with the Sox.

KW gave Paul Konerko a huge contract extenstion based on one good half-season that will pay him $8 million this season.

KW gave Carlos Lee a $15 million extension even though he's been in a decline since 2000 except when batting in front of Frank or actually showing patience at the plate.

KW gave Mags a back-loaded contract that will pay him over $14 million this season.

KW picked up the option on Jose's contract at $5 million for this season.

KW traded away the team's other options at middle infield (Jimenez, Miles, Hummel) thus leaving Harris the only alternative at 2B this season.

So, how exactly can we not blame KW for this mess?

I can't say that I agree with all of what your saying here. Konerko had three good years with improvement, Carlos Lee is not on the decline, but had a break out year and Maggs and Valentin deserve what they got also.

I do agree though that trading Miles for Uribe didn't make sense and I can see Miles having a heck of a season at Coors with the way he swings that bat. Hummell I am not to sure about. He showed some flash with the bat in Cincy, but weak glove. I wouldn't have made the Foulke for Koch trade either.

If JR controls the purse strings then $58M is not enough to field a winning pennant contending ball club. I am not settling for 1st in the AL Central I wan't a pennant and World Series appearance.

1951Campbell
01-23-2004, 11:13 PM
All these payroll stats and players stats in this thread obscure one immutable truth...

If you can't win the AL Central in 2004, and don't even try, then you've bascially abdicated trying to win the easiest division in the history of mankind.

Arguing over who bats where is the equivalent of re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic if people really think that $58 million puts the Sox close to contending. I hate to say it, but if this division is so weak and so up for grabs and the organization only wants to spend $58 million, well, ****, there's no use getting all worked up now, or ever.

Maybe I'm a pessimist, but fer chrissakes...

Man Soo Lee
01-23-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
It's not as if the 2nd spot in the lineup is reserved only for crappy guys trying to get better by batting around good hitters. Lee was extremely effective batting 2nd last year and every stat you have brought up has said so. Therefore, there is no problem. Lee bats second, he hits well, the team does better.

Carlos has been consistently more productive in the #2 hole than later in the lineup for the reasons that PaleHoseGeorge discussed (even if he was unfair to Maggs :smile: ). When he hits later in the lineup, his production is easily replaceable.

At $8.5 million in '05 and an option for $8.5M in '06, KW paid Carlos like a core player considering the Sox budget. If Maggs is gone a year from now, Carlos will be forced to hit in the middle of the lineup and be one of the guys counted on to carry the team. History shows he probably won't be as successful there.

If the future corner outfielders are going to be Lee/Reed for $9M or Ordonez/Reed for $13M, we'd be a far better team with big money committed to Maggs who has proven he can carry a team.

gosox41
01-24-2004, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by doctor30th
I would hardly call Lee's performance last year a decline.



When KW signed him to that contract alot of outfielders were getting 16 mil or more a year. We probably would have already lost magglio and he would be happier probably playing in NY making 15 mil a year if he didn't sign that contract.

Check out his walk and strike out rates the last few years. Also his OBP wasn't exactly stellar.

Bob

cornball
01-24-2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
KW gave Billy Koch a $6.375 extension before he threw a pitch with the Sox.

KW gave Paul Konerko a huge contract extenstion based on one good half-season that will pay him $8 million this season.

KW gave Carlos Lee a $15 million extension even though he's been in a decline since 2000 except when batting in front of Frank or actually showing patience at the plate.

KW gave Mags a back-loaded contract that will pay him over $14 million this season.

KW picked up the option on Jose's contract at $5 million for this season.

KW traded away the team's other options at middle infield (Jimenez, Miles, Hummel) thus leaving Harris the only alternative at 2B this season.

So, how exactly can we not blame KW for this mess?

The market has changed drastically in the past few years. The owner knows who is under contract, yet the budget has come down from years past. KW is an easy target, from my view he wants to win but is handcuffed by this owner.

Hangar18
01-24-2004, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
KW gave Billy Koch a $6.375 extension before he threw a pitch with the Sox.

KW gave Paul Konerko a huge contract extenstion based on one good half-season that will pay him $8 million this season.

KW gave Carlos Lee a $15 million extension even though he's been in a decline since 2000 except when batting in front of Frank or actually showing patience at the plate.

KW gave Mags a back-loaded contract that will pay him over $14 million this season.

KW picked up the option on Jose's contract at $5 million for this season.

KW traded away the team's other options at middle infield (Jimenez, Miles, Hummel) thus leaving Harris the only alternative at 2B this season.

So, how exactly can we not blame KW for this mess?

These are all Very Excellent Points, but I do have to defend KEnny here with giving Koch/Konerko Contracts. He did that so that if they had another "Great Season", he wouldnt be stuck paying "Market Value" for them a year or two later. The Indians did this in the early 90's a lot, and it worked for them. ONly thing is the 2 guys he did it for, Sucked last year. Giving Konerko that Contract wouldnt be so bad if they guy hadnt stunk last season. KOCH on the other hand, was a product of the White Sox' Timeless and Annual Lets-trade-arbitration-eligible-player-for-Cheaper-alternative-player, and they GOT BURNED.
Boston is knows what they got Signing Foulke as their Closer,
we lost him because.......oh yeah, he was too "expensive".
What BURNS ME UP about this team, is when we Traded for Foulke, he was just some unknown, no-name prospect that was pushed onto the team to give the WhiteFlag Trade Legitimacy.
He wasnt really good enough to start, and ended up in the BullPen. The SOX, thru a Stroke of Luck, used him in a set-up role and he was doing very well there. If you remember, he WASNT OUR CLOSER right off the bat, he was just a guy that happened to be pitching very well, thru trial-and-error, and wound up in the closers role. So nice of the SOX to Homegrow some talent, weed thru whos good and bad, Groom the player into a role, have the player Excel at it.........
Then let him Move On when hes REady and Productive to the Top Tier of MLB Teams that need them.

White Sox Baseball....Official Supplier of Major League Ready Players to Playoff Bound Teams

Lip Man 1
01-24-2004, 12:33 PM
Headline in the Saturday Sun-Times:

If fans come out, Sox will build

LOL

Management just doesn't get it do they? Fans won't make the first move with this organization yesterday, fans won't make the first move with this organization today and fans won't make the first move with this organization tomorrow.

It isn't gonna' happen! (and threats by Kenny aren't helping things along...)

The arrogance of this organization is beyond belief.

Lip

gogosoxgogo
01-24-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Headline in the Saturday Sun-Times:

If fans come out, Sox will build

LOL

Management just doesn't get it do they? Fans won't make the first move with this organization yesterday, fans won't make the first move with this organization today and fans won't make the first move with this organization tomorrow.

It isn't gonna' happen! (and threats by Kenny aren't helping things along...)

The arrogance of this organization is beyond belief.

Lip

It's so sad, too. I thought the Sox had finally gotten it last year that they need to put a good product on the field before fans come, not vice versa... but here, we go again. They really don't understand.

gogosoxgogo
01-24-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
Carlos has been consistently more productive in the #2 hole than later in the lineup for the reasons that PaleHoseGeorge discussed (even if he was unfair to Maggs :smile: ). When he hits later in the lineup, his production is easily replaceable.

At $8.5 million in '05 and an option for $8.5M in '06, KW paid Carlos like a core player considering the Sox budget. If Maggs is gone a year from now, Carlos will be forced to hit in the middle of the lineup and be one of the guys counted on to carry the team. History shows he probably won't be as successful there.

If the future corner outfielders are going to be Lee/Reed for $9M or Ordonez/Reed for $13M, we'd be a far better team with big money committed to Maggs who has proven he can carry a team.

Unfortunately, that's what good hitters are going for these days. Carlos is a good hitter. If he hits .300/30/100 like he basically did last year, then he's worth that money and I don't care where he's batting in the lineup. I'm not going to argue with you about Maggs, because I'd much rather have Maggs than Lee. Given the possibility, I'd like to keep them both, but if we can only keep one, of course give me Maggs.

ND_Sox_Fan
01-24-2004, 10:40 PM
"I had to do a lot of selling because of our resources," Williams said of going over budget. "But [chairman] Jerry [Reinsdorf] wants to put the best team we can out on the field."


RIGHT !!!!