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SEALgep
01-23-2004, 01:38 PM
KW is going to be on the radio at about 4 p.m. (gave it as an approximate time). With the risk of sounding like a jackass, it was either 670 AM or ESPN 1000 AM. I honestly forgot, but they did say it. I think it was ESPN though. It was said yesterday, in case something changed between then and now.

DirtySouthsider
01-23-2004, 01:41 PM
It's ESPN am1000. I heard the same thing. Plus KW will NOT go on the Score anymore.

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 01:43 PM
Ya they said that, and they were all upset about it. What did they do to him to make that happen?

CubKilla
01-23-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
What did they do to him to make that happen?

What possessed you to acquire Royce K-layton, Todd Ritchie, and Billy Botch?

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 01:49 PM
Lol- He got mad I take it. Hindsight is always 20-20, I was excited about Koch I must proclaim, the others I was indifferent. I really didn't know them well at the time. Clayton sucked as well, but his D was at least solid.

CubKilla
01-23-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Clayton sucked as well, but his D was at least solid.

:hitless

"I'm in the upper-echelon of SS's defensively"

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 03:43 PM
20 minutes espn 1000

Brian26
01-23-2004, 04:29 PM
Did I miss it? It's 4:27pm, and I hear Dave Duerson auditioning for a job on tv.

mantis1212
01-23-2004, 04:29 PM
I missed the interview, anything interesting?

Palehose13
01-23-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Did I miss it? It's 4:27pm, and I hear Dave Duerson auditioning for a job on tv.
No. They said at 4 that they are trying to find him. with the Rivera conference at 5, I am not sure KW is going to be able to squeeze in...

Brian26
01-23-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
No. They said at 4 that they are trying to find him. with the Rivera conference at 5, I am not sure KW is going to be able to squeeze in...

:KW

"You bitches are going to bump me for Ron Rivera?"

chisoxmike
01-23-2004, 04:39 PM
will be on now at 5:05

mandmandm
01-23-2004, 04:39 PM
5:05 according to McNeil. KW bumping Rivera??

chisoxmike
01-23-2004, 04:39 PM
:KW
"Well, I'm not doing anything important."

Hangar18
01-23-2004, 04:48 PM
not to change the subject.......but Why cant I find that
picture of a Lovable looking Uncle Jerry in the Tags Gallery??
Where is everyone finding that?

voodoochile
01-23-2004, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
not to change the subject.......but Why cant I find that
picture of a Lovable looking Uncle Jerry in the Tags Gallery??
Where is everyone finding that?

:reinsy
"You mean me? Try ": reinsy" without the space or the quotation marks. See, I really do care about Sox fans. Here I am hanging out, answering questions about board features. Sox fans, who loves ya?"

ChiWhiteSox1337
01-23-2004, 05:00 PM
I got my dial tuned in!!!

ChiWhiteSox1337
01-23-2004, 05:09 PM
he's on!

chisoxmike
01-23-2004, 05:09 PM
:KW
"Damn snow"

CWSGuy406
01-23-2004, 05:10 PM
K-Dub is on now. 5:10 Central Time.

Talking about Mr. Zero, and Backman.

doctor30th
01-23-2004, 05:12 PM
If its anything interesting let us know.

doctor30th
01-23-2004, 05:15 PM
it's not very promising if you don't get any replys.

ChiWhiteSox1337
01-23-2004, 05:18 PM
He hasn't really talked about anything other than that the sox don't have the fan support or resources to match the cubs. KW claims that the sox fans do have a lot of passion though. Now he's putting up a case for Willie Harris at 2b. He's comparing him to Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez, he's a cornerstone of the white sox franchise apparently.

doctor30th
01-23-2004, 05:18 PM
Anyone else just see that? the Warning stealing bandwith is a crime thing?

nodiggity59
01-23-2004, 05:18 PM
doctor30th it's not very promising if you don't get any replys.

Ya KW is not very talkative about future moves... I still would like to know what they talked about tho if somebody wants to help those who live away from Chitown.

ode to veeck
01-23-2004, 05:19 PM
Clayton sucked as well, but his D was at least solid.


really solid while he ducked any hot grounders or didn't get credited with an error on a ball that bounced off his chest and had all the range of a lawn chair !?!?

chisoxmike
01-23-2004, 05:19 PM
:KW
"I kill that Mintkawich. cracka!"

ChiWhiteSox1337
01-23-2004, 05:23 PM
I think KW thinks that the Sox have actually won a world series recently. He just said something along the lines of this, "The team on paper doesn't automatically lead to wins, we haven't won any championships in the past few years." Try more like 86 years. :(:

KW is mad at Frank Thomas for not returning his calls just like he won't return Ozzie's. Why does Thomas do this every year?

chisoxmike
01-23-2004, 05:24 PM
:KW
"He never calls anymore"

Randar68
01-23-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
KW is mad at Frank Thomas for not returning his calls just like he won't return Ozzie's. Why does Thomas do this every year?

The way he's charstized by the media and been generally treated by the organization... WOULD YOU!??

voodoochile
01-23-2004, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
The way he's charstized by the media and been generally treated by the organization... WOULD YOU!??

He's probably just upset at having to deal with JR's idiot brigade. I mean at least Barry Bonds got to play under Jim Leland, Dusty Baker and Felipe Alou in his career. What's Frank had?

dpbyron
01-23-2004, 05:30 PM
Can't wait until the "real Wally Backman story" comes out!

I wonder what exactly happened because Kenny sure sounded pissed off.

CWSGuy406
01-23-2004, 05:37 PM
KW Touched on:

Mr Zero - (What's he like, pitches etc. Compared him to Sully)

Frank Thomas - (Not returning phone calls of Kenny or Ozzie.)

Wally Backman

Media

Sox/Cubs, Sox not doing as much as Cubs.

Willie Harris, Aaron Rowand (hey, he only mentioned grinders ONCE)

Ozzie Guillen (What he brings to the table)

Trade possibilities (Not likely to be a big trade, but he'll pull the trigger if he feels it makes us better.)

Why last year wasn't successful. (Jerry Manual, it was so obvious.)

Talked about the Sox looking pretty good on paper the last couple of years, yet no championships.

idseer
01-23-2004, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
He hasn't really talked about anything other than that the sox don't have the fan support or resources to match the cubs. KW claims that the sox fans do have a lot of passion though. Now he's putting up a case for Willie Harris at 2b. He's comparing him to Carlos Lee and Magglio Ordonez, he's a cornerstone of the white sox franchise apparently.

i DO hope you're kidding about the harris thing.

ChiWhiteSox1337
01-23-2004, 05:42 PM
I'm not. KW compared Harris to Carlos and Magglio because no one heard of them when they were called up and then they became cornerstones.

Lip Man 1
01-23-2004, 05:56 PM
So Kenny said in essence "He hasn't really talked about anything other than that the Sox don't have the fan support or resources to match the Cubs.

Funny at one time they did hmmmm, I wonder what ownership group ran Harry Caray off, traded Sammy Sosa, created SportsVision, took part in collusion, threatened to move to Florida, sabotaged the 94 season and pulled off the White Flag Trade...? All brilliant PR / fan friendly moves LOL

It's a miracle that anybody still gives a damn about em'

lip

Iwritecode
01-23-2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
the sox don't have the fan support or resources to match the cubs.

I know I'm beating a dead horse here but I wonder if he understands that if they put a team worth watching on the field year after year they would have both...

idseer
01-23-2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
I'm not. KW compared Harris to Carlos and Magglio because no one heard of them when they were called up and then they became cornerstones.

all hope is lost sox fans.
i'm resigned to the sox never winning anything and i assume this team will leave chicago in the NEAR future.
reinsdork has taken a team with 100 years of history and run it into the ground.
you may as well hold on to whatever good memories you have of this team and be satisfied because there aren't a lot left.

it's a real tragedy.

Iwritecode
01-23-2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
He just said something along the lines of this, "The team on paper doesn't automatically lead to wins, we haven't won any championships in the past few years." Try more like 86 years. :(:


Well, they won the division championship...

Paulwny
01-23-2004, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by idseer
all hope is lost sox fans.
i'm resigned to the sox never winning anything and i assume this team will leave chicago in the NEAR future.
reinsdork has taken a team with 100 years of history and run it into the ground.
you may as well hold on to whatever good memories you have of this team and be satisfied because there aren't a lot left.

it's a real tragedy.

I've had this same feeling for the last few months, very depressing. You expressed it a lot better then I could.

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 06:08 PM
Quit busting on Harris. He hasn't even played a whole year, give him a chance. He bats a 150 sparaticly and you guys are pissed he didn't hit .300. Give it a rest, he can't prove he's a good player if he can't play. He needs to develop, why is that a big deal. Every team has rookies. I'm sick of it. What do you want them to do. It's our best option, complaining about it doesn't make the situation any different. Me personally, I think he's going to end up being a pretty solid player. What's wrong with that.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2004, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Quit busting on Harris. He hasn't even played a whole year, give him a chance. He bats a 150 sparaticly and you guys are pissed he didn't hit .300. Give it a rest, he can't prove he's a good player if he can't play. He needs to develop, why is that a big deal. Every team has rookies. I'm sick of it. What do you want them to do. It's our best option, complaining about it doesn't make the situation any different. Me personally, I think he's going to end up being a pretty solid player. What's wrong with that.

I must be *really* good. I didn't get any at-bats at all!

:bandance:

Daver
01-23-2004, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
So Kenny said in essence "He hasn't really talked about anything other than that the Sox don't have the fan support or resources to match the Cubs.

Funny at one time they did hmmmm, I wonder what ownership group ran Harry Caray off, traded Sammy Sosa, created SportsVision, took part in collusion, threatened to move to Florida, sabotaged the 94 season and pulled off the White Flag Trade...?

Every owner in both leagues took part in collusion,and were found guilty for it.It was not limited to the White Sox.

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I must be *really* good. I didn't get any at-bats at all!

:bandance: [/QUOTE]

Okay, what sense does that make. You don't even know why you don't like him. How can you, he hasn't had a chance to make you hate him.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Okay, what sense does that make. You don't even know why you don't like him. How can you, he hasn't had a chance to make you hate him.

Hate him? I wish I had 150 at-bats. I would take 50 at-bats. I guarantee 100 percent I would be the best teammate anybody in the Sox organization has ever seen. Why shouldn't I have a chance, too?

soxnut
01-23-2004, 06:41 PM
[
[ the Sox don't have the fan support or resources to match the Cubs.[/B]

Well, if the Sox feel that is the case, then KW should be asked at Soxfest to tell JR to sell the team to someone who does have the resources. If you can't compete, cash in your chips and sell to someone who is competitive enough to do what it takes to compete with the Cubs :(:

poorme
01-23-2004, 06:44 PM
KW is an arrogant fool.

CWSGuy406
01-23-2004, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Quit busting on Harris. He hasn't even played a whole year, give him a chance. He bats a 150 sparaticly and you guys are pissed he didn't hit .300. Give it a rest, he can't prove he's a good player if he can't play. He needs to develop, why is that a big deal. Every team has rookies. I'm sick of it. What do you want them to do. It's our best option, complaining about it doesn't make the situation any different. Me personally, I think he's going to end up being a pretty solid player. What's wrong with that.


Seal, I totally agree with you. The kid was hitting .350 or so before he got the callup last year. He got atbats here and there, that's all. I loved seeing Harris get pumped up in the dugout, and he wasn't even playing half the time. I think Everett's enthusiasm for the game rubbed off on Harris. I am very happy seeing players really excited to play the game. It gets me pumped up, I guess.

Let him dig his own grave.

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 07:28 PM
Thanks, that's all I'm saying. Give him the chance. If he fails I'll be the first to say he sucks and get rid of him. I don't believe he will, and that energy and willingness to work hard is exactly what you need to succeed. I think it will pay off.

Daver
01-23-2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I don't believe he will, and that energy and willingness to work hard is exactly what you need to succeed.

To suceed at the MLB level you also have to have talent,aside from his hustle and his willingness to work hard,he has not shown a lot of talent.Aaron Rowand is another prime of example of a player with a good work ethic,but a lack of overall talent.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2004, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Daver
To suceed at the MLB level you also have to have talent,aside from his hustle and his willingness to work hard,he has not shown a lot of talent.Aaron Rowand is another prime of example of a player with a good work ethic,but a lack of overall talent.

Daver, you've never seen me play. Those who have know I work hard and hustle my ass off. Do I deserve 400 AB's next season?

:?:

JRIG
01-23-2004, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Daver, you've never seen me play. Those who have know I work hard and hustle my ass off. Do I deserve 400 AB's next season?

:?:

But are you a grinder?

PaleHoseGeorge
01-23-2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
But are you a grinder?

I grind with the best of 'em.

Daver
01-23-2004, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Daver, you've never seen me play. Those who have know I work hard and hustle my ass off. Do I deserve 400 AB's next season?

:?:

Only if me and my career .190 BA get a chance too. I can play defense,I had an average of 61% CS in my career.

PaulDrake
01-23-2004, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I've had this same feeling for the last few months, very depressing. You expressed it a lot better then I could. Make it me three. I'm guilty of no originality. You and idseer have summed it up for me.

jabrch
01-23-2004, 08:14 PM
On Backman, he said something like - I have been very good about keeping the Backman issue private - but Wally keeps shooting off his mouth. If he says one more thing about it, I will tell the ENTIRE Backman story.

It sounded like KW was pissed and has dirt on Backman.

MacNeil said, "So can we call you next time Wally shoots his mouth off?"

KW - "Yes you can"

Harry - "Talk to you tomorrow then!"

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 08:33 PM
You're right you need talent. Harris and Rowand do have talent. I don't care what you guys think, they're good players. Harris hit .400 in AAA. Is that luck, can you do it? No, so lay off him until he proves he can't handle the league. Right now, you have no argument.

ode to veeck
01-23-2004, 08:33 PM
Aaron Rowand is another prime of example of a player with a good work ethic,but a lack of overall talent.

yeah, but he's got an awfully hard head!

beckett21
01-23-2004, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
You're right you need talent. Harris and Rowand do have talent. I don't care what you guys think, they're good players. Harris hit .400 in AAA. Is that luck, can you do it? No, so lay off him until he proves he can't handle the league. Right now, you have no argument.

:KW

Wee Willie and Crash are the CORNERSTONES of this franchise--am I clear here?

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 08:41 PM
You're an idiot. Whose talking about cornerstones. You have to field a team, and not everyone is going to the Allstar game. If you hate these guys and the team so much, why even bother being on this forum. You sound like a cry baby not getting his way. I want the best and a 100 million dollar payroll. We don't have it, so these guys are going to get a shot. There isn't anything wrong with that.

beckett21
01-23-2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
You're an idiot. Whose talking about cornerstones. You have to field a team, and not everyone is going to the Allstar game. If you hate these guys and the team so much, why even bother being on this forum. You sound like a cry baby not getting his way. I want the best and a 100 million dollar payroll. We don't have it, so these guys are going to get a shot. There isn't anything wrong with that.

I believe KW himself said that Harris was a cornerstone of this franchise; sorry if I took it out of context, but he said something along those lines. Sorry if you need to resort to namecalling to prove your points. Rowand and Harris have proved nothing to this point. Have they had a fair chance? Maybe not. But to tell me that this team has improved over a club that won 86 games last year--I don't buy it. Do they deserve a chance--maybe. But to count on them as being productive, that is baseless. They have had fine minor league careers. Means nothing.

Daver
01-23-2004, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
You're right you need talent. Harris and Rowand do have talent. I don't care what you guys think, they're good players. Harris hit .400 in AAA. Is that luck, can you do it? No, so lay off him until he proves he can't handle the league. Right now, you have no argument.

I am willing to hold back judgement on Harris,simply because he was rushed through two teams farm systems,and never given a chance to get a good look at any given level.

Rowand has been brought up through the Sox system and has never shown much more than average to less than talent anywhere he has played,and has never shown anything to convince me he is any better than a fourth outfielder,but perhaps you have a different definition of talent.

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
I believe KW himself said that Harris was a cornerstone of this franchise; sorry if I took it out of context, but he said something along those lines. Sorry if you need to resort to namecalling to prove your points. Rowand and Harris have proved nothing to this point. Have they had a fair chance? Maybe not. But to tell me that this team has improved over a club that won 86 games last year--I don't buy it. Do they deserve a chance--maybe. But to count on them as being productive, that is baseless. They have had fine minor league careers. Means nothing.

I realize I can't say they will be great players, I was just arguing that you were saying they aren't or couldn't. I think we're on the same page now, I apologize for getting personal. I get upset easily, and I really like the Sox and want them to do well. That's not the only reason in defending them though, I really do like them. If they were traded, I would be upset as of now. Now I have to argue the other point below yours lol.

beckett21
01-23-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I realize I can't say they will be great players, I was just arguing that you were saying they aren't or couldn't. I think we're on the same page now, I apologize for getting personal. I get upset easily, and I really like the Sox and want them to do well. That's not the only reason in defending them though, I really do like them. If they were traded, I would be upset as of now. Now I have to argue the other point below yours lol.

Hey no problem. I really didn't take it personally, and it really is great to see someone so excited about these guys. I am not trying to be all gloom and doom; I just think the team is average right now, and we would have to count on career years from almost everybody to get over the hump. Realistically I don't see it happening. Certainly you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it; unfortunately I don't agree. :D:

Good to see you stick behind your guys; you are a braver man than I!

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I am willing to hold back judgement on Harris,simply because he was rushed through two teams farm systems,and never given a chance to get a good look at any given level.

Rowand has been brought up through the Sox system and has never shown much more than average to less than talent anywhere he has played,and has never shown anything to convince me he is any better than a fourth outfielder,but perhaps you have a different definition of talent.

We agree on Harris- good.

Rowand also hasn't been given a fair shot. Whether it was Lofton or Singleton coming in, he has always been a fourth outfielder. Last year was the year he was finally going to be given a chance. After the bike accident that set him back and the pitch that broke his wrist, it was almost a lost cause. He trains hard all year to be in the shape he considers worthy. Also when he finally was healthy it was like he was a step back from everyone with a full spring training. That's difficult, especially when you've had limited action your entire career before. After his stint in the minors from the setback, he came back in July. He batted .387 for the rest of the season. I beleive he can hit .270 with 15-20 homeruns this year. That is worthy production with the way he fields the ball in center.

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 09:18 PM
Good to see you stick behind your guys; you are a braver man than I! [/B][/QUOTE]

Lol, thanks, but it's probably more ignorance the bravery. I just see potential. I love underdogs, and I can't stand people with talent that don't work hard to be better. I see talent in those two, but even better I see the drive to not settle and want to be better. There is no substituting that. You're right though, neither of us can pass judgement until we see them on a regular basis. I beleive they are going to be good, as I stipulated, but I also believe they will grow better over time. As far as not becoming better though, we underperformed last year. Manuel had a laid back approach. Right or wrong, Ozzie's style doesn't reflect that. I beleive he will motivate these guys, and they'll rise to the occasion. We'll see.

beckett21
01-23-2004, 09:28 PM
By far I enjoy watching guys that play hard. I love watching Darin Erstad because he puts it on the line every play. Unfortunately his body has taken a beating. That is what would infuriate me about Jimenez, and unfortunately at times about el caballo. These guys have all the talent in the world, and expect that to be enough to get them by. Lee matured, to me, a lot last year, but he still had lapses. I just hope he doesn't get *fat and happy* so to speak. Rowand and Harris do bring that element of grit and enthusiasm, and I love it. But at some point it must yield results. Believe me I would be just as happy as anyone to see them come through this year. I would happily eat all my words. I don't dislike those guys for their effort or as people. I just think they are below average in the league. But hey, you gotta start somewhere. I just don't want to suffer through another miserable April/May again this year.

Daver
01-23-2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
We agree on Harris- good.

Rowand also hasn't been given a fair shot. Whether it was Lofton or Singleton coming in, he has always been a fourth outfielder. Last year was the year he was finally going to be given a chance. After the bike accident that set him back and the pitch that broke his wrist, it was almost a lost cause. He trains hard all year to be in the shape he considers worthy. Also when he finally was healthy it was like he was a step back from everyone with a full spring training. That's difficult, especially when you've had limited action your entire career before. After his stint in the minors from the setback, he came back in July. He batted .387 for the rest of the season. I beleive he can hit .270 with 15-20 homeruns this year. That is worthy production with the way he fields the ball in center.

Rowand has never been good at any level of the minors,and is not a defensive plus,so if you are basing your argument about his lack of being able to hit for average,his poor plate discipline,and his inability to take a walk is based on what he gives you in his defense,then this discussion is not worth continuing.The next time Aaron Rowand reads a flyball correctly off the bat will be his first,we will not even go into his lack of being able to position himself to make a throw,or his inability to know where he is on the field while he is fielding a ball.Rowand is a less than average defensive outfielder with a weak bat.

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 09:37 PM
Beckett- I hear that. What do you think about Mr. Zero? Another ?, but I like the move. If he is close to what he has done, and Koch can get back to a decent level of his former self (doesn't have to be rolaod relief man) I think then we would have one of the more solid bullpens. If there was any move that I was totally against, it was Schoenweiss as a starter. However, KW is excited about him and has said to be trying to get him for years. I was still hesistant, but that cut fastball they taught Loaiza, apparently has been added to his arsenal. I like that, we'll see if it pays off for him, or for us rather lol.

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 09:39 PM
[
Rowand has never been good at any level of the minors,and is not a defensive plus,so if you are basing your argument about his lack of being able to hit for average,his poor plate discipline,and his inability to take a walk is based on what he gives you in his defense,then this discussion is not worth continuing.The next time Aaron Rowand reads a flyball correctly off the bat will be his first,we will not even go into his lack of being able to position himself to make a throw,or his inability to know where he is on the field while he is fielding a ball.Rowand is a less than average defensive outfielder with a weak bat. [/QUOTE]

You're way off, I'm done responding to that crap.

Daver
01-23-2004, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep


You're way off, I'm done responding to that crap.

I know,it is hard to argue against the truth.

beckett21
01-23-2004, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Beckett- I hear that. What do you think about Mr. Zero? Another ?, but I like the move. If he is close to what he has done, and Koch can get back to a decent level of his former self (doesn't have to be rolaod relief man) I think then we would have one of the more solid bullpens. If there was any move that I was totally against, it was Schoenweiss as a starter. However, KW is excited about him and has said to be trying to get him for years. I was still hesistant, but that cut fastball they taught Loaiza, apparently has been added to his arsenal. I like that, we'll see if it pays off for him, or for us rather lol.

Excited about Zero-san, just in the sense that we went out on a limb and tried to shake things up. Don't know if that will help Billy-boy find his fireball, but I don't see where it can hurt. Schoenweis could be a nice surprise. I would like to see how things shake out in ST. It is too early to judge, but it sure is fun arguing about it! :)

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 09:52 PM
I know,it is hard to argue against the truth. [/QUOTE]

If there is one thing you can't argue Rowand it is his defense. He makes plays. I don't know if you watch games, but if you do, it doesn't show. No one says he sucks at D.

Daver
01-23-2004, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
[B]I know,it is hard to argue against the truth.

If there is one thing you can't argue Rowand it is his defense. He makes plays. I don't know if you watch games, but if you do, it doesn't show. No one says he sucks at D.


I just did,and pointed out in detail why.

Obviously I know nothing about baseball.

doctor30th
01-23-2004, 10:00 PM
Gentelmen please having heated discussions about Rowand though entertaining is not to useful. Perhaps we should contract a major league scout to come out and look at him and give us a proper scouting report.

SEALgep
01-23-2004, 10:02 PM
It's alright, if you keep watching, you'll learn a little more. You just have to be careful making statements if you don't know what you're saying. Don't worry though, I won't hold a grudge. Just keep learning, and you'll be okay.

doctor30th
01-23-2004, 10:05 PM
I'm impartial in this matter would you like me to arbitrate the case of Rowand?

beckett21
01-23-2004, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by doctor30th
Gentelmen please having heated discussions about Rowand though entertaining is not to useful. Perhaps we should contract a major league scout to come out and look at him and give us a proper scouting report.

I wonder if we could get Jerry Krause to do it?

Daver
01-23-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
It's alright, if you keep watching, you'll learn a little more. You just have to be careful making statements if you don't know what you're saying. Don't worry though, I won't hold a grudge. Just keep learning, and you'll be okay.

I'll keep that in mind while I go through my tape of the Winston Salem Warthogs from last season.

A. Cavatica
01-23-2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I just did,and pointed out in detail why.

Obviously I know nothing about baseball.

Since that wasn't in teal, I won't touch it.

gogosoxgogo
01-23-2004, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I'll keep that in mind while I go through my tape of the Winston Salem Warthogs from last season.

Daver, where would you go about acquiring such a tape? Is that something you've done on your own or is that something that could be purchased? The most I've done with the Sox minor league teams is listened to them over the web. With all of them way too far from the Chicago land area, I've never been able to see them in person.

Daver
01-23-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Daver, where would you go about acquiring such a tape? Is that something you've done on your own or is that something that could be purchased? The most I've done with the Sox minor league teams is listened to them over the web. With all of them way too far from the Chicago land area, I've never been able to see them in person.

I have some freinds in the area that tape the games for me,and mail them to me.They are also willing to single out players for me,which helps me out with analizing minor leauge talent.I spend way to much time following minor league baseball.

hold2dibber
01-24-2004, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
If there is one thing you can't argue Rowand it is his defense. He makes plays. I don't know if you watch games, but if you do, it doesn't show. No one says he sucks at D.

Lots of people say he sucks defensively. Making a diving or running catch on a ball that a good CF would have made standing still up does not make him a good defender.

Lip Man 1
01-24-2004, 12:30 AM
SEALgap (and others):

Perhaps you don't know this, if not, please allow me to include this.

Daver (while coming across as a 'redneck' outdoorsman--just joking Daver!) actually is very much into the Sox minor league operation. He's into it and knowledgeable enough so that Phil Rogers of the Tribune uses him as a source and helper when compiling info on the Sox minor league prospects.

When Phil has a question about some kid from Podunk, Arkansas who's in Great Falls in the Sox rookie league, he asks Daver.

He knows whereof he speaks.

Lip

longshot7
01-24-2004, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Daver
I just did,and pointed out in detail why.

Obviously I know nothing about baseball.

Daver, you rule.

CWSGuy406
01-24-2004, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
:KW

Wee Willie and Crash are the CORNERSTONES of this franchise--am I clear here?

I believe Kenny was referring to the fact that no one had known Magglio and Carlos, and that they basically came out of nowhere and are now very good players.

Chances are Willie won't be that good, but I just cannot believe that he just "lost" his hitting at AAA. (though it has happened before.)

I can't really defend Aaron Rowand. He started playing well, as did Harris, right about the time they made the Everett and Alomar trades. Rowand is just "keepin' CF warm" till Borchard learns to take a few pitches.

CWSGuy406
01-24-2004, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by beckett21
I believe KW himself said that Harris was a cornerstone of this franchise; sorry if I took it out of context, but he said something along those lines. Sorry if you need to resort to namecalling to prove your points. Rowand and Harris have proved nothing to this point. Have they had a fair chance? Maybe not. But to tell me that this team has improved over a club that won 86 games last year--I don't buy it. Do they deserve a chance--maybe. But to count on them as being productive, that is baseless. They have had fine minor league careers. Means nothing.

I just want to clear this up, but yes, you are taking it out of context.

Kenny referred to the fact that everyone thought nothing of Magglio and Lee when they got here, and look how they're doing. He called Mags and Lee the cornerstones, and said that they came from nowhere. He never called Harris a cornerstone.

jabrch
01-24-2004, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Daver
I just did,and pointed out in detail why.

Obviously I know nothing about baseball.


Not only do I agree with Daver - but I, independently, think Rowand is a poor defensive CF.

For the millionth time, pounding your head into a wall is not an example of good defense.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-24-2004, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
SEALgap (and others):

Perhaps you don't know this, if not, please allow me to include this.

Daver (while coming across as a 'redneck' outdoorsman--just joking Daver!) actually is very much into the Sox minor league operation. He's into it and knowledgeable enough so that Phil Rogers of the Tribune uses him as a source and helper when compiling info on the Sox minor league prospects.

When Phil has a question about some kid from Podunk, Arkansas who's in Great Falls in the Sox rookie league, he asks Daver.

He knows whereof he speaks.

Which just goes to show that Phil Rogers has more baseball sense than Kenny Williams.

:redneck

:KW
"Sean Lowe is the worst pitcher on this staff."
"Barry or Berry, the deal stands!"
"I need grinders!"

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 08:39 AM
I don't know what games you guys watch, and if he sucked in the minors. It really doesn't matter though, I've seen what he's done in the show. His offense hasn't always been there granted, but his defense has. He always has a jump on the ball, he turns his body the proper way to use whatever speed he has to its ideal form. As far as slamming into the wall, that's not why he's awesome at D. The fact that he makes the play pretty much all the time does. Remember in Anaheim last year when Buerhle was complaining about the offense, and that game snagged a homerun ball and threw out a guy at home. He single handedly saved three runs. That's not uncommon for him to make plays on him. Maybe Daver watches all his minor league games and he blew. If he did, why did they bring him up, and why did they put him in late in the outfield for defensive purposes? And why hasn't he shown that he is a defensive liability for the Sox? Ya, I don't know either, lol.

jabrch
01-24-2004, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I don't know what games you guys watch, and if he sucked in the minors. It really doesn't matter though, I've seen what he's done in the show. His offense hasn't always been there granted, but his defense has. He always has a jump on the ball, he turns his body the proper way to use whatever speed he has to its ideal form. As far as slamming into the wall, that's not why he's awesome at D. The fact that he makes the play pretty much all the time does. Remember in Anaheim last year when Buerhle was complaining about the offense, and that game snagged a homerun ball and threw out a guy at home. He single handedly saved three runs. That's not uncommon for him to make plays on him. Maybe Daver watches all his minor league games and he blew. If he did, why did they bring him up, and why did they put him in late in the outfield for defensive purposes? And why hasn't he shown that he is a defensive liability for the Sox? Ya, I don't know either, lol.

I don't know what games you watch. I went to 20 games last year. (not that many - I know) and I saw him on several occasions get terrible jumps, do 360 spin-o-ramas and then dive/slide for a ball that should have been a can-o-corn.

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
I don't know what games you watch. I went to 20 games last year. (not that many - I know) and I saw him on several occasions get terrible jumps, do 360 spin-o-ramas and then dive/slide for a ball that should have been a can-o-corn.

Oh really, I watched over 115 games last year. Tell me what though, did he make the play? He is an aggressive outfielder, and sometimes that can get you in trouble, but most always makes the play. And that aggressiveness puts him in the position to make plays he might not otherwise. If he makes the play, it really doesn't matter. I mean you guys make it sound like he's a chicken with his head cut off. Come on, those 360's he's doing is his form in turning the proper way so he doesn't reduce his speed. Not a lot of guys do that properly.

hose
01-24-2004, 09:05 AM
Aaron Rowand did come up big in this game.

SWEET :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=230628104

PaleHoseGeorge
01-24-2004, 09:05 AM
I have never seen a 4th outfielder--and a RF converted to CF no less-- receive more unbridled support than Aaron Rowand. Where was all the love for McKay Christenson? That guy brought at least as much to the table. Or is it all about being so incompetent at your position that running into walls is turned into something we admire, not shake our heads in disgust over?

Rowand's nickname inside the clubhouse *isn't* "Crash" and "Robocop" because they think he is doing a great job out there. Sorry.

Paulwny
01-24-2004, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I mean you guys make it sound like he's a chicken with his head cut off. Come on, those 360's he's doing is his form in turning the proper way so he doesn't reduce his speed. Not a lot of guys do that properly.

360's are never taught as a way of playing the outfield. When an outfielder performs a 360 that means he's misjudged the flight of the ball off the bat and further compounds the mistake by momentarily losing sight of the ball while he's turning around.

hose
01-24-2004, 09:17 AM
PHG just to play devils advocate here, where is the can't miss prospect Joe Brochard?.....standing a few feet in front of a guy yelling STRIKE 3 four times a game.

Joe has to get it in gear this year.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-24-2004, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by hose
PHG just to play devils advocate here, where is the can't miss prospect Joe Brochard?.....standing a few feet in front of a guy yelling STRIKE 3 four times a game.

Joe has to get it in gear this year.

Joe Borchard is shaping up as a $5 million mistake. I was never convinced the Sox were right for trying to make him a CFer and now his bat is gone, too. Rowand is on the bench or out of baseball if Borchard had lived up to what the Sox expected from him by now, back in 2000 when they gave him that giant signing bonus. Reinsdorf throws around nickels like they were manhole covers.

:reinsy
"And it's all your fault."

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
360's are never taught as a way of playing the outfield. When an outfielder performs a 360 that means he's misjudged the flight of the ball off the bat and further compounds the mistake by momentarily losing sight of the ball while he's turning around.

You're right, I meant how he runs and repositions himself on the run when the ball is over his head. Not because he missed judged it. I've never seen him do a 360. If you have, then he most definitely missed judged it, but every time I've seen him, and its been often, he always performed well.

TornLabrum
01-24-2004, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Daver
To suceed at the MLB level you also have to have talent,aside from his hustle and his willingness to work hard,he has not shown a lot of talent.Aaron Rowand is another prime of example of a player with a good work ethic,but a lack of overall talent.

Isn't that what they said about Nellie Fox and Pete Rose? That being said, I want a major league second baseman, not Willie Harris.

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Joe Borchard is shaping up as a $5 million mistake. I was never convinced the Sox were right for trying to make him a CFer and now his bat is gone, too. Rowand is on the bench or out of baseball if Borchard had lived up to what the Sox expected from him by now, back in 2000 when they gave him that giant signing bonus. Reinsdorf throws around nickels like they were manhole covers.

:reinsy
"And it's all your fault."

Borchard cost us 5 million?Ya it looks like a mistake as of now. Not that it means anything, but he is still a top 50 prospect, 43 I believe. That's a drop off from where Reed is currently at, 4. I hope Borchard can rebound, but he'll always be a question mark until he can better judge the srike zone and shorten up his long, but powerful, swing.

TornLabrum
01-24-2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Daver
I know,it is hard to argue against the truth.

Here are Aaron Rowand's minor league statistics:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO AVG E
189 415 272 453 104 11 65 266 113 294 .284 22

That's the truth, and to me that makes him a good fourth outfielder.

TornLabrum
01-24-2004, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
I believe Kenny was referring to the fact that no one had known Magglio and Carlos, and that they basically came out of nowhere and are now very good players.

Chances are Willie won't be that good, but I just cannot believe that he just "lost" his hitting at AAA. (though it has happened before.)

KW referred to Ordonez and Lee as being cornerstones of the organization while comparing Harris to them. By implication that means he expects him to become something similar.

As far as Harris's hitting is concerned, there are dozens of players every year who prove themselves to be AAAA hitters. Harris could very well be one of those.

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 10:17 AM
Those aren't bad numbers, especially with very good defense. I'll tell you what, if the Sox signed someone like Hunter, Cameron, Lofton again, then granted Rowand would better serve as a fourth outfieilder. He can serve in that capacity well no doubt. However, we didn't, so he's the best we got. All I'm arguing is that we could do a lot worse. He's a good solid player. Don't read into the other names, I'm not saying Rowand is to their caliber. I'm saying they are elite. Rowand is average offensively, I beleive a little above average defensively, but he is not on the bottom tier of center fielders.

voodoochile
01-24-2004, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Those aren't bad numbers, especially with very good defense. I'll tell you what, if the Sox signed someone like Hunter, Cameron, Lofton again, then granted Rowand would better serve as a fourth outfieilder. He can serve in that capacity well no doubt. However, we didn't, so he's the best we got. All I'm arguing is that we could do a lot worse. He's a good solid player. Don't read into the other names, I'm not saying Rowand is to their caliber. I'm saying they are elite. Rowand is average offensively, I beleive a little above average defensively, but he is not on the bottom tier of center fielders.

Of playoff caliber teams he is. For serious pennant contenders, he is clearly at the bottom of the ladder. That is the point. Sure, Rowand is adequate, if you goal is to win a weak division and quickly quit the playoffs at best.

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
KW referred to Ordonez and Lee as being cornerstones of the organization while comparing Harris to them. By implication that means he expects him to become something similar.

As far as Harris's hitting is concerned, there are dozens of players every year who prove themselves to be AAAA hitters. Harris could very well be one of those.

I'm sure people are under the impression that I beleive Rowand and Harris are superstars. I don't, believe me. I think their ceilings are high. Harris especially. He appears to have a similar work ethic to Rowand, and probably more talent. I agree with KW, I think we can expect good things from Harris. I think Harris will have a pretty decent season this year, but I also beleive he'll get better as he goes.

jabrch
01-24-2004, 10:24 AM
:tomatoaward

jabrch
01-24-2004, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Here are Aaron Rowand's minor league statistics:

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO AVG E
189 415 272 453 104 11 65 266 113 294 .284 22

That's the truth, and to me that makes him a good fourth outfielder.


He should be the fourth OF for a AAA team. He should not be the starting CF for the White Sox.

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Of playoff caliber teams he is. For serious pennant contenders, he is clearly at the bottom of the ladder. That is the point. Sure, Rowand is adequate, if you goal is to win a weak division and quickly quit the playoffs at best.

I was comparing to the entire league. Dude, we don't have a championship team. Everyone wants a higher payroll, including me, but be realistic. We can't afford to upgrade every position with the best available. Next year will provide more payroll flexibility. Rowand is good enough to play the position. He's not Beltran, but he doesn't suck. Who would you have rather had who was available? Keep cost in mind, Vlad couldn't have done it. Really he was and is our best option. Maybe he won't meet mosts standards, but I think he'll do fine and surprise some of you.

voodoochile
01-24-2004, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I was comparing to the entire league. Dude, we don't have a championship team. Everyone wants a higher payroll, including me, but be realistic. We can't afford to upgrade every position with the best available. Next year will provide more payroll flexibility. Rowand is good enough to play the position. He's not Beltran, but he doesn't suck. Who would you have rather had who was available? Keep cost in mind, Vlad couldn't have done it. Really he was and is our best option. Maybe he won't meet mosts standards, but I think he'll do fine and surprise some of you.

Cameron would have been just fine.

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
He should be the fourth OF for a AAA team. He should not be the starting CF for the White Sox.

Lol, that's just a little exaggerated. If you don't think he can start, that's one thing, but he is a major leaguer.

jabrch
01-24-2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Oh really, I watched over 115 games last year. Tell me what though, did he make the play? He is an aggressive outfielder, and sometimes that can get you in trouble, but most always makes the play. And that aggressiveness puts him in the position to make plays he might not otherwise. If he makes the play, it really doesn't matter. I mean you guys make it sound like he's a chicken with his head cut off. Come on, those 360's he's doing is his form in turning the proper way so he doesn't reduce his speed. Not a lot of guys do that properly.

How many games did you go to? You don't see on TV how poor of a jump this guy gets on things. It is as if he waits until the ball is out of the IF to start moving. And no - he doesn't always make the play.

His teammates know he is a bad OF. He coaches know it. Scouts know it. People who watch him regularly know it. He hustles - but I don't want a hustler - I want a baseball player.

I'd much rather have Everett (slower, but more fundamentally sound) in CF than Crash.

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Cameron would have been just fine.

We couldn't have competed with the Mets offer, wasn't a realistic option.

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
How many games did you go to? You don't see on TV how poor of a jump this guy gets on things. It is as if he waits until the ball is out of the IF to start moving. And no - he doesn't always make the play.

His teammates know he is a bad OF. He coaches know it. Scouts know it. People who watch him regularly know it. He hustles - but I don't want a hustler - I want a baseball player.

I'd much rather have Everett (slower, but more fundamentally sound) in CF than Crash.

I went to over ten games last year, and watched over a 100 more. We all wanted Everett. It just didn't work out. Rowand is our best option, you may not like it, but that doesn't mean this is a horrible situation. He's a good ballplayer.

voodoochile
01-24-2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
We couldn't have competed with the Mets offer, wasn't a realistic option.

See, now that is loser thinking. Of course not. Why would we ever expect the Sox to spend money to win when they can pocket it instead.

I'm sorry. I am not calling you a loser, but the division is winnable and the Sox are sitting around doing nothing. One of the upgradeable positions was CF. Now we are stuck with Rowand. I hope he does well, but I think when we watch this kid play for a full season, his faults are going to become painfully obvious. Hope I'm wrong, but I have more faith that Harris will develop into a solid player than that Rowand will make me happy to have him out there.

Prove me wrong, Aaron, please, prove me wrong...

voodoochile
01-24-2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I went to over ten games last year, and watched over a 100 more. We all wanted Everett. It just didn't work out. Rowand is our best option, you may not like it, but that doesn't mean this is a horrible situation. He's a good ballplayer.

No, he's an average ball player by your own admission earlier in this thread. You can't have it both ways. Average appears to be his ceiling too.

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
See, now that is loser thinking. Of course not. Why would we ever expect the Sox to spend money to win when they can pocket it instead.

I'm sorry. I am not calling you a loser, but the division is winnable and the Sox are sitting around doing nothing. One of the upgradeable positions was CF. Now we are stuck with Rowand. I hope he does well, but I think when we watch this kid play for a full season, his faults are going to become painfully obvious. Hope I'm wrong, but I have more faith that Harris will develop into a solid player than that Rowand will make me happy to have him out there.

Prove me wrong, Aaron, please, prove me wrong...

Lol, I wanted more than anyone for them to upgrade their payroll, but if money were to be spent, I would have rather it have been with more solid pitching. I think if Koch can rebound to some degree, we will have a real solid pen. Another impression I may have let on mistakenly is that I believe Rowand is the center of the future. I don't think he is. I think he's good, and with a full season he will perform repectfully. I think we could do worse. If he performs that poorly, I'm more than confident and in favor of giving Reed a shot. I just think its Rowand's position to lose. Give him the chance he's never had, being the starter from the beginning while being healthy.

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, he's an average ball player by your own admission earlier in this thread. You can't have it both ways. Average appears to be his ceiling too.

I am forced to give him a lot of credit when arging with people who think he's barely good enough to be a fourth outfielder in AAA. He's better than that.

Paulwny
01-24-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
You're right, I meant how he runs and repositions himself on the run when the ball is over his head. Not because he missed judged it. I've never seen him do a 360. If you have, then he most definitely missed judged it, but every time I've seen him, and its been often, he always performed well.

Actually I haven't seen Rowan in many games so I don't remember if he has or hasn't done any 360's. Now, which is it , in this post you say you never saw him do a 360 but in post 92 you say " those 360's he's doing is his form in turning the proper way so he doesn't reduce his speed. Not a lot of guys do that properly."

SEALgep
01-24-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Actually I haven't seen Rowan in many games so I don't remember if he has or hasn't done any 360's. Now, which is it , in this post you say you never saw him do a 360 but in post 92 you say " those 360's he's doing is his form in turning the proper way so he doesn't reduce his speed. Not a lot of guys do that properly."

What are you talking about? I just reposted my error and corrected myself. Which is it, figure it out, I just said it.

CWSGuy406
01-24-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
KW referred to Ordonez and Lee as being cornerstones of the organization while comparing Harris to them. By implication that means he expects him to become something similar.

As far as Harris's hitting is concerned, there are dozens of players every year who prove themselves to be AAAA hitters. Harris could very well be one of those.

Well, then, one of us heard wrong or misunderstood him. I thought Kenny implied that Magglio and Lee came out of nowhere, and ended up being cornerstones, and that you can never really tell what Harris will do at 2B.

Read my whole post as well, because I made the exact same comment in parentheses. I said Harris hit really well in AAA last year before the callup, I said I didn't think he'd just lose it, but I finished it by saying he might just be one of those players that plays well in the minors but cannot play major league ball...

Rex Hudler
01-24-2004, 03:58 PM
Rowand has never been good at any level of the minors

That is very far from the truth. Rowand was quite good in 1998 in Hickory, solid in 1999 in Winston-Salem and good in 2000 in Birmingham. He is not a high average hitter, but to hit 20 HR and drive in 98 runs in Birmingham is no small feat.

When Rowand was here in Birmingham, he was considered on the same level as a prospect as Joe Crede. His coaches felt he had more power potential than Crede but would not hit for as high of an average. He has one of the best OF arms in baseball and is an solid CF. He is no gold glover and does make mistakes, but he will also make plays many guys don't.

Rowand has been brought up through the Sox system and has never shown much more than average to less than talent anywhere he has played,and has never shown anything to convince me he is any better than a fourth outfielder,but perhaps you have a different definition of talent.

Rowand has not gotten a full season of AB's as a regular since 2000. While the Sox were patient with Crede and allowed him to continue to develop, they brought Rowand up to the Majors to play part-time. I am not saying that Rowand will ever be an all-star, but I have no doubt that he will be solid if given the chance to play everyday for the Sox in 2004. No one knws for sure if he will ever live up to the potential he once had because he has not had regular playing time. But to say that he was never a good player is just flat out inaccurate.

I spend way to much time following minor league baseball.

If you know the minors so well, I am curious why you have not posted or predicted the Sox Top Ten Prospects. They will be released in a few days by BA, so let's see what ya got?? Doing so in a new thread might be a better idea, but hey, this is your baby.

hose
01-24-2004, 04:30 PM
Rex this may be a moot point but Colorado had interest in Rowand a couple of years ago and inquired about obtaining him.

The best case scenario is that Aaron continues to improve at the plate and the field. If Joe Brochard can put it together and compete against Rowand then the Sox might have their center field situation solved. Either way I think this is the last year for Joe Brochard to be a prospect and not a suspect.

Jjav829
01-24-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
If you know the minors so well, I am curious why you have not posted or predicted the Sox Top Ten Prospects. They will be released in a few days by BA, so let's see what ya got?? Doing so in a new thread might be a better idea, but hey, this is your baby.

Well for the record, this (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=3&id=2354) was a 2003 prospect wrapup from daver and Randar. Not sure how they'd change that for 2004 predictions, or if they would at all.

Dadawg_77
01-24-2004, 05:02 PM
Last AL average for Range factor for Center fielders was 2.78, Rowand was 2.54. 2002 lg ave was 2.78, Aaron was at 3.08.

Rowand have pretty good UZR, one of the better stats on fielding. While he doesn't appear when watching him, he seems to efective fielding the ball.

http://www.baseballstuff.com/tangotiger/UZR9903TT.html

But this makes him a good fourth outfielder, since his bat sucks. 2001 was his best year at the plate, with a OPS+ of 113. When he got his most plate appearances in 2002, he was a major drain on the team with a .292 OPB.

Dadawg_77
01-24-2004, 05:03 PM
The only thing I want to hear from Kenny is him leaving the Sox. He has taken divison winner and turn it into this. He has been one of the worst GMs in Sox history. Right up there with Hawk.

poorme
01-24-2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
The only thing I want to hear from Kenny is him leaving the Sox. He has taken divison winner and turn it into this. He has been one of the worst GMs in Sox history. Right up there with Hawk.

I concur. The guy would bet the house on a pair of 2's.

What is it about Aaron Rowand that brings out such hatred? If anyone thinks he's a BAD fielder, they haven't seen really BAD fielders...guys like Ron Kittle, Keith Moreland, etc.

Dub25
01-24-2004, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Rowand has never been good at any level of the minors,and is not a defensive plus,so if you are basing your argument about his lack of being able to hit for average,his poor plate discipline,and his inability to take a walk is based on what he gives you in his defense,then this discussion is not worth continuing.The next time Aaron Rowand reads a flyball correctly off the bat will be his first,we will not even go into his lack of being able to position himself to make a throw,or his inability to know where he is on the field while he is fielding a ball.Rowand is a less than average defensive outfielder with a weak bat.

If he has never been good at any level then how and the hell did he make the big team? And could you tell the model of your tv that your watching so i can purchase it to see Rowand inability to correctly field a ball.

Daver
01-24-2004, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Dub25
If he has never been good at any level then how and the hell did he make the big team? And could you tell the model of your tv that your watching so i can purchase it to see Rowand inability to correctly field a ball.

He made it to the MLB level because Ron Schueler saw fit to make him a first round pick,against the advice of his scouting staff. I watched last years games on a Sharp 20" TV,which at the time was the largest TV I could put on my desk next to my monitor,I have upgraded to a Dell 24" flat screen TV for this season,though I am wondering why I bothered to make the effort.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by Daver
He made it to the MLB level because Ron Schueler saw fit to make him a first round pick,against the advice of his scouting staff. I watched last years games on a Sharp 20" TV,which at the time was the largest TV I could put on my desk next to my monitor,I have upgraded to a Dell 24" flat screen TV for this season,though I am wondering why I bothered to make the effort.

So 20 HR and 98 RBI in what YOU call a huge ballpark had nothing to do with it?? And following that up with a .295 Avg and 16 HR and 48 RBI in only 82 games at AAA had nothing to do with it??

If you take Rowand's three minor league seasons (half of 98 and half of 2001, plus full seasons in 1999 and 2000) he averaged the following:

.284 91-R 35-2B 22-HR 87-RBI 17-SB Approx .330 OBP (couldn't find his sacs)...

Yes he struck out about 100 times a season and only averaged 38 walks, but those numbers are FAR from being bad and not deserving of a call to the Major Leagues. He may still only be a 4th OF, but you are WAY OFF on the merits of his reaching the Big Leagues.

The last time the guy got regular AB's he was hitting .295 with 16HR and 48 RBI in 82 games, which is pretty much on par with Joe Crede's stats when he was promoted to the Sox in 2002.

In reality, Rowand's stats were quite similar to Crede's all the way through the Minors. Crede had the benefit of repeating AA after getting hurt halfway through his first year (while he was struggling) and repeating AAA after struggling his first year there. Rowand moved up a level each year and never repeated a level. He was thrust in a part-time role while Crede was given the opportunity to play everyday and be more ready for the Show.

Dadawg_77
01-25-2004, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler

Yes he struck out about 100 times a season and only averaged 38 walks, but those numbers are FAR from being bad and not deserving of a call to the Major Leagues. He may still only be a 4th OF, but you are WAY OFF on the merits of his reaching the Big Leagues.

What!!!!!!!! Do you know what stats mean, because you clearly show here you don't. 38 walks with 100K is horrible.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
What!!!!!!!! Do you know what stats mean, because you clearly show here you don't. 38 walks with 100K is horrible.

You're right, 20 extra walks and 20 less strikeouts would be SO much more important than an extra 5 HR and 20RBI. I very much understand the value of OBP, but you guys who think it is more important than every other stat combined don't know **** about baseball.

TornLabrum
01-25-2004, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
You're right, 20 extra walks and 20 less strikeouts would be SO much more important than an extra 5 HR and 20RBI. I very much understand the value of OBP, but you guys who think it is more important than every other stat combined don't know **** about baseball.

The problem is that Charlotte's ballpark is a band box with 345 foot power alleys. It inflates power numbers.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
The problem is that Charlotte's ballpark is a band box with 345 foot power alleys. It inflates power numbers.

So how do you explaing 20HR and 98 RBI in Birmingham, which is a big time pitcher's park?

TornLabrum
01-25-2004, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
So how do you explaing 20HR and 98 RBI in Birmingham, which is a big time pitcher's park?

Same way you explain his 7 HR in 302 AB in 2002. Comiskey Park is a hitter's park. Fluke.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Same way you explain his 7 HR in 302 AB in 2002. Comiskey Park is a hitter's park. Fluke.

That's not even close to the same comparison. He wasn't getting regular AB's in 2002. You can't underestimate the effect of playing every day versus being a part-time player.

The guy hasn't had a full season of AB's since 2000. I just don't get how everybody is an expert on how bad he is. I have no doubt that if he plays CF everyday for the Sox this year, his production will be fine.

Dadawg_77
01-25-2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
You're right, 20 extra walks and 20 less strikeouts would be SO much more important than an extra 5 HR and 20RBI. I very much understand the value of OBP, but you guys who think it is more important than every other stat combined don't know **** about baseball.

Are you kenny or someone working under him? This is seems to be his line of thinking and the main reason he sucks as a GM.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Are you kenny or someone working under him? This is seems to be his line of thinking and the main reason he sucks as a GM.

So you would rather have someone that hit.....

.275 15HR and 75 RBI with 58BB than someone with...

.270 20HR and 95 RBI and 38 BB???

Dadawg_77
01-25-2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
So you would rather have someone that hit.....

.275 15HR and 75 RBI with 58BB than someone with...

.270 20HR and 95 RBI and 38 BB???

You not telling me enough to make a choice. First off RBIs really mean nothing in evaluating a player. The player with a higher total might be on a club with a .400 OPB in front of him and other could be on the Sox.

I would need to know PA, TB or OPB, SLG to make the choice. But looking at the numbers I would lean to the first player listed since the power seems to be about the same and he appears to kill the second player in OPB.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
You not telling me enough to make a choice. First off RBIs really mean nothing in evaluating a player. The player with a higher total might be on a club with a .400 OPB in front of him and other could be on the Sox.

I would need to know PA, TB or OPB, SLG to make the choice. But looking at the numbers I would lean to the first player listed since the power seems to be about the same and he appears to kill the second player in OPB.

You can have the first guy and I'll take the second one. I could care less if the guy ahead of him has a .400 OBP. RBI means runs produced. A guy can get on base all day ahead of you and if you hit into DP's at a high rate the point it moot.

OBP has its place, but it is not the end-all stat. Worship Billy Beane all you want, but even he will tell you OBP doesn't mean squat if he doesn't have Hudson, Zito and Mulder getting outs on the other side. It is one piece of the puzzle and to evaluate a guy solely on that stat is extremely narrow minded.

Dadawg_77
01-25-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
You can have the first guy and I'll take the second one. I could care less if the guy ahead of him has a .400 OBP. RBI means runs produced. A guy can get on base all day ahead of you and if you hit into DP's at a high rate the point it moot.

OBP has its place, but it is not the end-all stat. Worship Billy Beane all you want, but even he will tell you OBP doesn't mean squat if he doesn't have Hudson, Zito and Mulder getting outs on the other side. It is one piece of the puzzle and to evaluate a guy solely on that stat is extremely narrow minded.

I never said it was the only stat. You talk of RBI use, while not mentioning how many chances. If the second guy had 200 runs in scoring position for him while the first guy had 100 chance, who is better? A guy who does it 60/100 or 75/200? Basing your choice on RBIs is silly and will end up hurting your team more often then not.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I never said it was the only stat. You talk of RBI use, while not mentioning how many chances. If the second guy had 200 runs in scoring position for him while the first guy had 100 chance, who is better? A guy who does it 60/100 or 75/200? Basing your choice on RBIs is silly and will end up hurting your team more often then not.

Sorry for not stating what I thought was the obvious. Assume all other stats are equal. Then who do you take?

Dadawg_77
01-25-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Sorry for not stating what I thought was the obvious. Assume all other stats are equal. Then who do you take?

I was pointing out a flaw in your thinking RBI are important in judging how good a player is.

I would go with the first player. He gets on base more thus has more of a chance to move runners along and score him self.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I was pointing out a flaw in your thinking RBI are important in judging how good a player is.

I would go with the first player. He gets on base more thus has more of a chance to move runners along and score him self.

We'll agree to disagree then. But if we are thinking that way, we better send Crede back to the minors, because his walk numbers were not much better than Rowand's. They were slightly better, but if Rowand is that bad, then Crede certainly must not have earned his promotion either.

TornLabrum
01-25-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
That's not even close to the same comparison. He wasn't getting regular AB's in 2002. You can't underestimate the effect of playing every day versus being a part-time player.

The guy hasn't had a full season of AB's since 2000. I just don't get how everybody is an expert on how bad he is. I have no doubt that if he plays CF everyday for the Sox this year, his production will be fine.

302 at bats in 126 games? So what is "regular"? Excuses, excuses.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
302 at bats in 126 games? So what is "regular"? Excuses, excuses.

That's an average of 2 AB's a game??? How in the hell can you even consider that regular? Getting regular playing time is getting a minimum of 450-500 AB's.

Please come up with something better than that.

TornLabrum
01-25-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
That's an average of 2 AB's a game??? How in the hell can you even consider that regular? Getting regular playing time is getting a minimum of 450-500 AB's.

Please come up with something better than that.

He got into 75% of the games and managed to hit .258/.298/.394. I think he got all the chance he deserved.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
He got into 75% of the games and managed to hit .258/.298/.394. I think he got all the chance he deserved.

Obviously, you have no clue what regular playing time is. Go play baseball for a season and come back and we'll discuss this again. You'll understand concepts like timing and rhythm a bit better.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-25-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Obviously, you have no clue what regular playing time is. Go play baseball for a season and come back and we'll discuss this again. You'll understand concepts like timing and rhythm a bit better.

Are you saying you need 500+ AB's across an entire season before you're convinced a ballplayer can't hack his job? Wow, that's generous. In fact 90 percent of the people in baseball would say you're generous to a fault.

There is a reason people in baseball call the major league level "The Show." You either *produce* or you're shown the door. Rowand has produced enough to be a solid #4 outfielder for a contender. It is only on a pretend contender that anyone would confuse him with an everyday centerfielder.

Guys get sent down and/or cut all the time. I have never heard one of them admit they just aren't good enough. If they accepted it without complaint they wouldn't be very good competitors. Meanwhile the number of major league jobs isn't changing. Many are called; Few are chosen.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Are you saying you need 500+ AB's across an entire season before you're convinced a ballplayer can't hack his job? Wow, that's generous. In fact 90 percent of the people in baseball would say you're generous to a fault.

There is a reason people in baseball call the major league level "The Show." You either *produce* or you're shown the door. Rowand has produced enough to be a solid #4 outfielder for a contender. It is only on a pretend contender that anyone would confuse him with an everyday centerfielder.

Guys get sent down and/or cut all the time. I have never heard one of them admit they just aren't good enough. If they accepted it without complaint they wouldn't be very good competitors. Meanwhile the number of major league jobs isn't changing. Many are called; Few are chosen.

That's not what I said at all. I merely said that Rowand has not had the opportunity to play everyday since 2000 and aside from last year when he was still rebounding from an injury has never really had the chance to play everday. Until he gets that chance, I don't think we will know if he can handle it. It's not like he had the chance and failed and was relegated to bench time.

Like I have alluded to before, this same conversation could be had about Crede, if he were brought up in 2001 to stay, yet not been allowed to play everyday and develop properly. However, the Sox handled Crede differently and it is paying off. That is good for Joe and the Sox, but the same could be happening with Aaron if he were handled differently.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-25-2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
That's not what I said at all. I merely said that Rowand has not had the opportunity to play everyday since 2000 and aside from last year when he was still rebounding from an injury has never really had the chance to play everday. Until he gets that chance, I don't think we will know if he can handle it. It's not like he had the chance and failed and was relegated to bench time...

Huh? You're saying you *don't* need 500+ AB's to know Rowand is a 4th outfielder? You disagreed with TornLabrum when he quoted damning numbers across 300+ AB's claiming it was too few to draw conclusions. What on earth are you claiming as your magic number, 400?

This is beginning to sound like somebody is trying to have their cake and eat it, too. Gimme a break with this...

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Huh? You're saying you *don't* need 500+ AB's to know Rowand is a 4th outfielder? You disagreed with TornLabrum when he quoted damning numbers across 300+ AB's claiming it was too few to draw conclusions. What on earth are you claiming as your magic number, 400?

This is beginning to sound like somebody is trying to have their cake and eat it, too. Gimme a break with this...

I'll make the same comment as I made before. Why don't you actually try playing the game and then coming back for this discussion? When you learn the difference between playing everyday and playing sporadically, perhaps you will understand what I am talking about.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-25-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I'll make the same comment as I made before. Why don't you actually try playing the game and then coming back for this discussion? When you learn the difference between playing everyday and playing sporadically, perhaps you will understand what I am talking about.

LOL! When you can make the case why you have insights at 400 AB's that aren't available at 300 AB's or 500 AB's, then I'll have learned something from you. In the meantime you're only making yourself look foolish.

RKMeibalane
01-25-2004, 03:32 PM
Aaron Rowand is a fourth outfielder. Nothing is going to change that. I don't care if he starts every game this season. His numbers aren't going to be anything special, because he doesn't have the talent necessary to produce the way some people think he can.

Case closed.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
LOL! When you can make the case why you have insights at 400 AB's that aren't available at 300 AB's or 500 AB's, then I'll have learned something from you. In the meantime you're only making yourself look foolish.

Sorry Pale Hose, but some things just cannot be explained with statistical analysis. I have tried making my point by referencing timing and rhythm and how it is affected if you don't get regular AB's. You either have chosen to ignore that or you can't comprehend it.

The only people I am looking foolish to are people like you who hide behind a stat sheet and don't have a clue about what it takes to actually play the game. Anyone that has played the game at a reasonably high level will understand the concepts of which I speak.

I feel sorry for you that you don't understand that part of the game. It is that lack of understanding that makes it a joke that people think the game can be run by a stat sheet alone.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-25-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Sorry Pale Hose, but some things just cannot be explained with statistical analysis. I have tried making my point by referencing timing and rhythm and how it is affected if you don't get regular AB's. You either have chosen to ignore that or you can't comprehend it.

The only people I am looking foolish to are people like you who hide behind a stat sheet and don't have a clue about what it takes to actually play the game. Anyone that has played the game at a reasonably high level will understand the concepts of which I speak.

I feel sorry for you that you don't understand that part of the game. It is that lack of understanding that makes it a joke that people think the game can be run by a stat sheet alone.

Actually Rex, what you've tried to do is obfuscate the issue, claiming you're an expert on baseball, proven your theories would be shot down by 90 percent of those in baseball, then backtracking and getting caught. It's really pathetic that you're still here trying to convince *anyone* that 300 AB's is a meaningless stat *and* 500 AB's is too many, too.

It's a joke of an argument. Sad. Very sad...

Daver
01-25-2004, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Sorry Pale Hose, but some things just cannot be explained with statistical analysis. I have tried making my point by referencing timing and rhythm and how it is affected if you don't get regular AB's. You either have chosen to ignore that or you can't comprehend it.

The only people I am looking foolish to are people like you who hide behind a stat sheet and don't have a clue about what it takes to actually play the game. Anyone that has played the game at a reasonably high level will understand the concepts of which I speak.

I feel sorry for you that you don't understand that part of the game. It is that lack of understanding that makes it a joke that people think the game can be run by a stat sheet alone.

I can see your point from the perspective you are trying to get across,and I still don't buy it,not from a stats perspective,but from a talent perspective,when you get right down to it Rowand does not have the talent of a first round draft pick.He has the talent of a fourth outfielder on a decent team,and his track record throughout his career backs this up.

SEALgep
01-25-2004, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I can see your point from the perspective you are trying to get across,and I still don't buy it,not from a stats perspective,but from a talent perspective,when you get right down to it Rowand does not have the talent of a first round draft pick.He has the talent of a fourth outfielder on a decent team,and his track record throughout his career backs this up.

Regardless, he is the centerfielder for this year. You can bash KW and JR if you care to, but Rowand can only do what he is able to. He works very hard, and that doesn't translate into superior talent, but I believe he has enough to produce this season. If he doesn't, Reed can be given a go at it. Regardless of what you say his past record has shown, it doesn't confirm his productivity for this season. I'm sure we all hope for the best, but it's true we may not get it. I still believe Rowand deserves the chance to lose the position, and if that were to happen in ST, and he became our fourth outfielder, that's fine. As of now, however, he is our best option with who we have in our system. He has experience, (and are main disagreement) above average defensive ability. We can speculate and disagree all we want, but if he becomes a real liability, I have every confidence Guillen will make a switch. I am very confident in Reed becoming a good major league ballplayer, but the fact is, he would probably be better off with another year of development. If it can't work out that way, and we need him this year, then we'll go that route. No problem.

TornLabrum
01-25-2004, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Regardless, he is the centerfielder for this year. You can bash KW and JR if you care to, but Rowand can only do what he is able to. He works very hard, and that doesn't translate into superior talent, but I believe he has enough to produce this season. If he doesn't, Reed can be given a go at it. Regardless of what you say his past record has shown, it doesn't confirm his productivity for this season. I'm sure we all hope for the best, but it's true we may not get it. I still believe Rowand deserves the chance to lose the position, and if that were to happen in ST, and he became our fourth outfielder, that's fine. As of now, however, he is our best option with who we have in our system. He has experience, (and are main disagreement) above average defensive ability. We can speculate and disagree all we want, but if he becomes a real liability, I have every confidence Guillen will make a switch. I am very confident in Reed becoming a good major league ballplayer, but the fact is, he would probably be better off with another year of development. If it can't work out that way, and we need him this year, then we'll go that route. No problem.

Point 1: No one is saying anything bad about Rowand. They are simply pointing out that he has nothing to indicate that he should be any more than a fourth outfielder. That is the fault of Sox management.

Point 2: If Reed isn't ready, then what does Guillen do? Joe Barchard anyone?

Daver
01-25-2004, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I am very confident in Reed becoming a good major league ballplayer, but the fact is, he would probably be better off with another year of development. If it can't work out that way, and we need him this year, then we'll go that route. No problem.

Jeremy Reed is not a CF'er,he is a converted infielder that is best suited in left field,although he would be better defensively than Aaron Rowand right now,he can at least read the ball off the bat.

Suffice it to say the Sox best bet in CF is for Joe Borchard to to tear things up in Arizona.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Actually Rex, what you've tried to do is obfuscate the issue, claiming you're an expert on baseball, proven your theories would be shot down by 90 percent of those in baseball, then backtracking and getting caught. It's really pathetic that you're still here trying to convince *anyone* that 300 AB's is a meaningless stat *and* 500 AB's is too many, too.

It's a joke of an argument. Sad. Very sad...

When did I say anything about 500 AB's being too many? Also, please show me where I called 300 AB's a "meaningless stat". If you want to put words in my mouth, at least use the correct ones.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Jeremy Reed is not a CF'er,he is a converted infielder that is best suited in left field,although he would be better defensively than Aaron Rowand right now,he can at least read the ball off the bat.

Suffice it to say the Sox best bet in CF is for Joe Borchard to to tear things up in Arizona.

If you have seen both Borchard and Reed play CF, you would know that Reed is definitely the better of the two at that position. Don't buy into the early scouting reports that Reed can't play CF. He absolutely can.

Daver
01-25-2004, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
If you have seen both Borchard and Reed play CF, you would know that Reed is definitely the better of the two at that position. Don't buy into the early scouting reports that Reed can't play CF. He absolutely can.

I'm not buying into scouting reports,I don't let others judge my opinion.I have seen them both,and Borchard is a better CF'er,hands down.

Rex Hudler
01-25-2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I'm not buying into scouting reports,I don't let others judge my opinion.I have seen them both,and Borchard is a better CF'er,hands down.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree once again. All I know is that Jeremy Reed made plays in the OF this year that Borchard would never have dreamed of making.

SEALgep
01-25-2004, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I'm not buying into scouting reports,I don't let others judge my opinion.I have seen them both,and Borchard is a better CF'er,hands down.

I've seen Borchard up on the Sox team in center when Rowand was struggling (offensively) and Borchard made several bad reads. He misjudged and commited errors. Maybe that was a fluke, but that's what he did. Rowand reads the ball well, I'm not sure when or how often you saw him, but regardless of if it was a lot, it's a misinterpretation. Reed is better suited as a corner fielder, but he certainly has the abilty to play center. He's not known for extrodinary speed (despite 45 steals), he's known for smart base running and reading the ball well. That's what allows him to utilize whatever speed he has to its maximum.

MUsoxfan
01-25-2004, 10:30 PM
Willie Harris: "You may run like Hayes, but you hit like ****!"

Daver
01-25-2004, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by MUsoxfan
Willie Harris: "You may run like Hayes, but you hit like ****!"


Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

voodoochile
01-25-2004, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by MUsoxfan
Willie Harris: "You may run like Hayes, but you hit like ****!"

Welcome Aboard! :D:

SEALgep
01-25-2004, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Point 1: No one is saying anything bad about Rowand. They are simply pointing out that he has nothing to indicate that he should be any more than a fourth outfielder. That is the fault of Sox management.

Point 2: If Reed isn't ready, then what does Guillen do? Joe Barchard anyone?

If Reed isn't ready, certainly Borchard isn't either. He will still be a good player, but he needs to regroup. You don't regroup in the show, it can ruin his confidence, and not to mention being a liability. He's not ready, at least in a starting role.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2004, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
When did I say anything about 500 AB's being too many?

Boy, this is beyond pathetic. Rex, there is a thread here where I can quote you in full. Why would you challenge me? Are you using your head at all?

Originally posted by PHG
Are you saying you need 500+ AB's across an entire season before you're convinced a ballplayer can't hack his job? Wow, that's generous. In fact 90 percent of the people in baseball would say you're generous to a fault.

Rex replies:
That's not what I said at all. I merely said that Rowand has not had the opportunity to play everyday since 2000 and aside from last year when he was still rebounding from an injury has never really had the chance to play everday. Until he gets that chance, I don't think we will know if he can handle it. It's not like he had the chance and failed and was relegated to bench time.

And I retort:
Huh? You're saying you *don't* need 500+ AB's to know Rowand is a 4th outfielder? You disagreed with TornLabrum when he quoted damning numbers across 300+ AB's claiming it was too few to draw conclusions. What on earth are you claiming as your magic number, 400?

To which this pithy reply comes from you:
I'll make the same comment as I made before. Why don't you actually try playing the game and then coming back for this discussion? When you learn the difference between playing everyday and playing sporadically, perhaps you will understand what I am talking about.



That was post 148-150. Now you've painted yourself into a corner. You just told me you and all the other people who know baseball don't need 500 AB's to evaluate a ballplayer, but just 10 posts earlier you wrote this...


Originally posted by Rex Hudler:
That's not even close to the same comparison. He wasn't getting regular AB's in 2002. You can't underestimate the effect of playing every day versus being a part-time player.

The guy hasn't had a full season of AB's since 2000. I just don't get how everybody is an expert on how bad he is. I have no doubt that if he plays CF everyday for the Sox this year, his production will be fine.

TornLabrum replies:

302 at bats in 126 games? So what is "regular"? Excuses, excuses.

And you retort:

That's an average of 2 AB's a game??? How in the hell can you even consider that regular? Getting regular playing time is getting a minimum of 450-500 AB's.


That's taken from posts 135, 144, and 145 in this thread, and ANYBODY reading this can check it for themselves.

I've seen some pretty dumb arguments before, but I'm marking this one down as the dumbest yet. In the space of 15 posts you've asserted that 300+ AB's are meaningless and 500+ are more than enough for you and everybody else who knows baseball to evaluate talent.

I would go on and on with examples of regular ballplayers who were sent down to the minor leagues after fewer than 200 AB's but I would be wasting my time on the likes of you. Every one of them was cut by real-life baseball people earning real-life money evaluating real-life baseball talent. In other words, people who are a million miles removed from whatever you are.

Thanks for playing, Rex. We have some lovely door prizes for you.

Rex Hudler
01-26-2004, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Boy, this is beyond pathetic. Rex, there is a thread here where I can quote you in full. Why would you challenge me? Are you using your head at all?



That was post 148-150. Now you've painted yourself into a corner. You just told me you and all the other people who know baseball don't need 500 AB's to evaluate a ballplayer, but just 10 posts earlier you wrote this...



That's taken from posts 135, 144, and 145 in this thread, and ANYBODY reading this can check it for themselves.

I've seen some pretty dumb arguments before, but I'm marking this one down as the dumbest yet. In the space of 15 posts you've asserted that 300+ AB's are meaningless and 500+ are more than enough for you and everybody else who knows baseball to evaluate talent.

I would go on and on with examples of regular ballplayers who were sent down to the minor leagues after fewer than 200 AB's but I would be wasting my time on the likes of you. Every one of them was cut by real-life baseball people earning real-life money evaluating real-life baseball talent. In other words, people who are a million miles removed from whatever you are.

Thanks for playing, Rex. We have some lovely door prizes for you.

George, you have no clue whatsoever. My whole argument from the beginning spoke of a player getting regular AB's, playing mostly everyday. When it was brought up that he had 302 AB's in 2002, I correctly stated that is not enough. Playing in 126 games and about 2 AB's a game shows that he was a part-time player. Often he was a defensive replacement late and got one AB or none.

I simply referred to a player not getting regular playing time as not being able to be fully judged as a starter. Rowand earned his shot in the Minors by playing every day. Not having played every day for a full season since 2000 or a half season since 2001, makes it more difficult to evaluate him.

In response to your question:Are you saying you need 500+ AB's across an entire season before you're convinced a ballplayer can't hack his job? Wow, that's generous. In fact 90 percent of the people in baseball would say you're generous to a fault. In some instances yes, that would be true. In others, playing everyday for a half season would be plenty. In others, guys are slated to be part-time players. So the rules are not the same for everybody. Forgive me if I chose not to answer your stupid question directly.

I am simply stating that if Rowand is going to be given the chance to be our CF, he will need to play everyday to prove whether he can handle it or not. Amassing his stats as a part-time player cannot accurately predict how he will handle playing everyday. In my mind, he earned his shot in the Minor Leagues. I hope, 2 1/2 years later it is not too late.

If you can't get the concept that I am discussing here, you are idiot. If you don't think Rowand can play everyday, fine. I can handle that. But to try and make me sound stupid when I present a very reasonable argument is assinine. If you want to try and nitpick at every statement I make rather than looking at the issue as a whole, go for it. It tells me all I need to know about you.

Dadawg_77
01-26-2004, 10:21 AM
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=BEEA

He doesn't look that special in the minors.


Worst part about it was Mark Prior and Adam Dunn were selected after him in the draft .

SEALgep
01-26-2004, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=BEEA

He doesn't look that special in the minors.

Not much of a drop off either, which is a good sign. I think his new stance allows him to relax at the plate and shortens his stroke. Similar to Graffs quick swing.

Rex Hudler
01-26-2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=BEEA

He doesn't look that special in the minors.


Worst part about it was Mark Prior and Adam Dunn were selected after him in the draft .

Averaging the following doesn't deserve a shot at playing everyday??

.284 91-R 35-2B 22-HR 87-RBI 17-SB Approx .330 OBP

Dadawg_77
01-26-2004, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Averaging the following doesn't deserve a shot at playing everyday??

.284 91-R 35-2B 22-HR 87-RBI 17-SB Approx .330 OBP

When they are minor league stats, which show drop off at each level, no.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
....If you can't get the concept that I am discussing here, you are idiot. If you don't think Rowand can play everyday, fine. I can handle that. But to try and make me sound stupid when I present a very reasonable argument is assinine. If you want to try and nitpick at every statement I make rather than looking at the issue as a whole, go for it. It tells me all I need to know about you.

Rex, I can't disprove Aaron Rowand won't prove himself an everyday ballplayer across 450-500 AB's. He has never gotten that many at-bats *in a single season.* You've been desperately trying to convince anybody silly enough to still read your posts that "people who know baseball" know a regular rhythm is important.

Unfortunately "people who know baseball" routinely evaluate ballplayers on far smaller sample sizes, especially when a ballplayer like Rowand has been up to The Show numerous times. Julio Ramirez was the everyday centerfielder for the Sox to start the 2001 season and he was shown the door after just 37 AB's. You can dispute it all you want, I really don't care.

The plain fact is Aaron Rowand will not be getting 450 AB's from the Chicago White Sox for any other reason besides Kenny being "overbudget" on the chairman's self-imposed payroll limit of $58 million, and the inability of the Sox to promote Joe Borchard or re-sign Carl Everett. Settling for mediocrity is what being a Sox Fan is all about, I suppose...

I wish I could tell you I'm the least bit surprised that you would hide behind the magical 450 AB's to center your argument. It is the last sapling standing in the forest that has been bombed into oblivion proving the mediocrity of Rowand as anything more than a fourth outfielder. I'm guessing when his magical 450th at-bat finally arrives and the pitcher bounces one off Rowand's foot, you'll be shouting from the stands, "DO OVER!"

:gun
"I sure wish I had Rex in my corner back in 2001."

:ohno
"You're the only one."

longshot7
01-26-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
[url]Worst part about it was Mark Prior and Adam Dunn were selected after him in the draft .

Prior was taken 2nd overall - so tell me how the above is possible.

Dadawg_77
01-26-2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by longshot7
Prior was taken 2nd overall - so tell me how the above is possible.

Rowand was drafted in 98 draft, Prior coming out of high school was drafted but not signed by Yankees so he goes back in the pot. The Cubs drafted him in 2000. That is why I used teal.

Rex Hudler
01-26-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
When they are minor league stats, which show drop off at each level, no.

Wanna check the Minor League numbers of Maggs, Crede, Frank, Olivo, Valentin, etc. etc.?

Some will be better, others worse. If you think those numbers aren't worthy of a promotion, then we better go get half the Major Leagues and send them back to the Minors so they can "earn" their promotion.

Rex Hudler
01-26-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Rex, I can't disprove Aaron Rowand won't prove himself an everyday ballplayer across 450-500 AB's. He has never gotten that many at-bats *in a single season.* You've been desperately trying to convince anybody silly enough to still read your posts that "people who know baseball" know a regular rhythm is important.

Unfortunately "people who know baseball" routinely evaluate ballplayers on far smaller sample sizes, especially when a ballplayer like Rowand has been up to The Show numerous times. You can dispute it all you want, I really don't care.

The plain fact is Aaron Rowand will not be getting 450 AB's from the Chicago White Sox for any other reason besides Kenny being "overbudget" on the chairman's self-imposed payroll limit of $58 million, and the inability of the Sox to promote Joe Borchard or re-sign Carl Everett. Settling for mediocrity is what being a Sox Fan is all about, I suppose...

I wish I could tell you I'm the least bit surprised that you would hide behind the magical 450 AB's to center your argument. It is the last sapling standing in the forest that has been bombed into oblivion proving the mediocrity of Rowand as anything more than a fourth outfielder. I'm guessing when his magical 450th at-bat finally arrives and the pitcher bounces one off Rowand's foot, you'll be shouting from the stands, "DO OVER!"

It's your world George, I am just passing through. I guess only time will tell how Rowand will do. My guess is that if he has a great year you will still find some argument to make that he isn't good enough.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-26-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
It's your world George, I am just passing through. I guess only time will tell how Rowand will do. My guess is that if he has a great year you will still find some argument to make that he isn't good enough.

I'm guessing I'll be joined by quite a chorus. :smile:

:gun
"Where's the love, Rex?"

Dadawg_77
01-26-2004, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Wanna check the Minor League numbers of Maggs, Crede, Frank, Olivo, Valentin, etc. etc.?

Some will be better, others worse. If you think those numbers aren't worthy of a promotion, then we better go get half the Major Leagues and send them back to the Minors so they can "earn" their promotion.

Frank
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=DJG

Struggled after being promoted in 89, but was on fire since then.

Joe Crede
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?ID=947

Still needs to improve on taking pitches, I won't argue that, but if the Sox left him in the minors they would have lost him. 2002 was his sixth year.

http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=GDI
Mags bloomed as a major leaguer, it happens just not often. I do believe the Sox almost lost him but no one drafted him.

Olivo cam up because there was no one else who could do the job.

Hangar18
01-26-2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
.... The Cubs drafted him in 2000. That is why I used teal.

Shouldnt the Entire ABOVE SENTENCE BE IN TEAL? I correct
every cub fan I meet when they say the words "cubs drafted"
and "mark prior" in the same sentence. We know what a
farce that draft was, and the Circumstances which led him
to end up in Chicago ........

Never wouldve Happened Had there been a commissioner.
a REAL commissioner

maurice
01-26-2004, 01:36 PM
My goodness. The "Tomato Award" ought to be renamed the "Crash Award." The ability of a mediocre OF to generate long WSI threads is amazing.

Crash is not a bad defender; he's an ugly defender. Some here are significantly overestimating the defensive acumen of the average major-league CF. If Crash can hold down CF for a full season (a big if), he will put up at least average offensive numbers for that position. Very few ML CFs are good both offensively and defensively.

A strong overall team could contend with a worse OF than Crash playing every day. To cite three fairly recent examples:
- The 2001 Mariners won 116 games with Al Martin in LF
- That same year, the Yankees won 95 games with Chuck Knoblach in LF
- The A's are in contention every year with a bad OF
The real problem is that, unlike those teams, the Sox do not have a strong team surrounding Crash. Adding an Ace starting pitcher and a stud SS to this team would make CF a non-issue.

Hangar18
01-26-2004, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Very few ML CFs are good both offensively and defensively.

A strong overall team could contend with a worse OF than Crash playing every day. To cite three fairly recent examples:
- The 2001 Mariners won 116 games with Al Martin in LF
- That same year, the Yankees won 95 games with Chuck Knoblach in LF
- The A's are in contention every year with a bad OF
The real problem is that, unlike those teams, the Sox do not have a strong team surrounding Crash. Adding an Ace starting pitcher and a stud SS to this team would make CF a non-issue.

Well Spoken!

longshot7
01-26-2004, 02:01 PM
Rex, get off the green leaf man. How much is Crash paying you?

34 Inch Stick
01-26-2004, 02:15 PM
Maurice, left field is much different than center field. It is the anchor of you outfield D. A good centerfielder makes up for below average fielders on either side. Using your example, Cameron played center for the M's and Bernie Williams played for the Yanks.

We could absolutely contend with Crash in LF and one of the top CF's starting for us in center. As it is now we have three outfielders who will be average to below average defensively the entire year. In fact, we are average to below average defensively at 6 of the 8 starting positions.

jabrch
01-26-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
In fact, we are average to below average defensively at 6 of the 8 starting positions.


Very True 34Inch...but we are grinders

maurice
01-26-2004, 03:07 PM
All I'm saying is, the fact that Crash is a starter does not doom this team to non-contention, as some have argued. To take it a step further, the fact that he's slated to play CF is not dooming either. Plenty of teams with worse defensive CFs have gone deep into the post-season. I seem to recall a moderately successfull A's team with Dave Henderson in CF. They made up for it with starting pitching, a solid bullpen, and a lineup that featured the world's greatest leadoff man. The Sox, OTOH, have a gaping hole at the top of the rotation, an okay bullpen, no leadoff hitter, and no plans to improve any of the above. Those are the real problems. While Carlos Beltran would improve this team a lot, a marginal upgrade at CF is not going to do much.

TornLabrum
01-26-2004, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=GDI
Mags bloomed as a major leaguer, it happens just not often. I do believe the Sox almost lost him but no one drafted him.

Maggs also improved at a pretty steady rate with one possible exception. Look at his batting average statistics:

1992 Sarasota (GCL) .180 (Age 18)
1993 Hickory .216 (Age 19)
1994 Hickory .294 (Age 20)
1995 Prince William .238 (Age 21)
1996 Birmingham .263 (Age 22)
1997 Nashville .329 (Age 23)

As he matured he generally improved.

Daver
01-26-2004, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum


As he matured he generally improved.

Yeah,Ron Schueler got really lucky when he was not selected in the rule 5 draft.

SEALgep
01-26-2004, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Yeah,Ron Schueler got really lucky when he was not selected in the rule 5 draft. Sure did, but sometimes that happens. Hopefully Grilli will be something similar for us as a pitcher.