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Mohoney
01-23-2004, 09:13 AM
I heard that Tampa Bay would be willing to part with Crawford for pitching prospects. With the recent signings that Kenny has made, I don't see room on this team for Dan Wright. Maybe a package of Dan Wright, Joe Borchard, and Ryan Wing would be enough to steal Crawford (and his 55 stolen bases) away from Tampa Bay. Lead Crawford off and play him in Center, and run like hell!

Just a thought.

ewokpelts
01-23-2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
I heard that Tampa Bay would be willing to part with Crawford for pitching prospects. With the recent signings that Kenny has made, I don't see room on this team for Dan Wright. Maybe a package of Dan Wright, Joe Borchard, and Ryan Wing would be enough to steal Crawford (and his 55 stolen bases) away from Tampa Bay. Lead Crawford off and play him in Center, and run like hell!

Just a thought.

Crawford's one of thier stud players. They spent too much money to deveolp him to trade him away for danny wrong....him and Baldelli are thier cornerstones...
Gene

kittle42
01-23-2004, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
I heard that Tampa Bay would be willing to part with Crawford for pitching prospects.

Could you have possibly heard this on a message board?

Mohoney
01-23-2004, 09:53 AM
It was in The Sporting News.

Hullett_Fan
01-23-2004, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
I heard that Tampa Bay would be willing to part with Crawford for pitching prospects. With the recent signings that Kenny has made, I don't see room on this team for Dan Wright. Maybe a package of Dan Wright, Joe Borchard, and Ryan Wing would be enough to steal Crawford (and his 55 stolen bases) away from Tampa Bay. Lead Crawford off and play him in Center, and run like hell!

Just a thought.

That makes too much sense...so the Sox won't do it.

Then again, it doesn't make sense for the Devil Rays, so they might just do it. :o: :?: :D:

SSN721
01-23-2004, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
I heard that Tampa Bay would be willing to part with Crawford for pitching prospects. With the recent signings that Kenny has made, I don't see room on this team for Dan Wright. Maybe a package of Dan Wright, Joe Borchard, and Ryan Wing would be enough to steal Crawford (and his 55 stolen bases) away from Tampa Bay. Lead Crawford off and play him in Center, and run like hell!

Just a thought.

Wow, that would be fantastic for the Sox, I just cant see Tampa parting with such a great player for what seems quite little to me in comparison. I dont know, maybe they were thinking more along the lines of the type of prospects the Dodgers have in their farm system. Just seems too good of a deal for us the way you laid it out.

jabrch
01-23-2004, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
I heard that Tampa Bay would be willing to part with Crawford for pitching prospects. With the recent signings that Kenny has made, I don't see room on this team for Dan Wright. Maybe a package of Dan Wright, Joe Borchard, and Ryan Wing would be enough to steal Crawford (and his 55 stolen bases) away from Tampa Bay. Lead Crawford off and play him in Center, and run like hell!

Just a thought.


Heck, get em to throw in Baldelli while you are at it! Why would TB gave up Crawford for Wright, Borchard and Wing? I just don't see it. For a guy that good, that young, that left handed, and 4 years away from free agency, they would want a heck of a lot more than that.

voodoochile
01-23-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
I heard that Tampa Bay would be willing to part with Crawford for pitching prospects. With the recent signings that Kenny has made, I don't see room on this team for Dan Wright. Maybe a package of Dan Wright, Joe Borchard, and Ryan Wing would be enough to steal Crawford (and his 55 stolen bases) away from Tampa Bay. Lead Crawford off and play him in Center, and run like hell!

Just a thought.

Welcome Aboard! :D:

kittle42
01-23-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Mohoney
It was in The Sporting News.

I stand corrected. I don't see why the Rays would want to do this, though.

It would be nice to have another Lance Johnson-type player at the top of the lineup, even though Crawford's average may not be as good.

Mohoney
01-23-2004, 10:46 AM
I know that I low-balled the initial offer. Anybody that has other offers, please post. Maybe Kenny is reading!

Frater Perdurabo
01-23-2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Hullett_Fan
That makes too much sense...so the Sox won't do it.

Then again, it doesn't make sense for the Devil Rays, so they might just do it. :o: :?: :D:

What's that old saying about when an irresistable force meets an immovable object?

RKMeibalane
01-23-2004, 11:39 AM
If this happened, the Sox lineup would take on this look:

CF- Crawford
LF- Lee
1B- Thomas
RF- Ordonez
DH- Konerko
SS- Valentin
3B- Crede
C- Olivo
2B- Harris

The holes at the bottom of the order are a concern, but as Daver so often points out, no team should be expecting that much production out of their eight and nine hitters. The rest of the lineup is solid, with Crawford batting in front of Lee, Thomas, and Ordonez.

Harris' speed at the bottom of the order may help, as well. If he can improve his OBP, then the Sox could conceivably have two base-stealing threats on base for their run producers.

Then again, this trade won't happen, so I guess we're back to square one.

A. Cavatica
01-23-2004, 01:06 PM
Is this the same Carl Crawford with the .668 career OPS?

Why would we want him? He's no leadoff hitter.

CubKilla
01-23-2004, 01:09 PM
Crawford's cross-eyed and only hits HR's off of Billy Botch.

Jjav829
01-23-2004, 01:32 PM
Carl Crawford? Eh..No thanks. Not for those 3. We'd be getting screwed in that deal.

hold2dibber
01-23-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Heck, get em to throw in Baldelli while you are at it! Why would TB gave up Crawford for Wright, Borchard and Wing? I just don't see it. For a guy that good, that young, that left handed, and 4 years away from free agency, they would want a heck of a lot more than that.

What do you mean by "that good"? Crawford really hasn't shown more than Borchard at this point, other than that he can steal bases. But that doesn't do much for me because he doesn't get on base very often. He may ooze potential, but so does LTP. I don't think I'd make that trade if I were KW.

IlliniSox
01-23-2004, 01:57 PM
Sweet Lou said last year that Crawford has the talent to win a batting title within the next 3 years. How do you think Pinella would react to that trade?

jabrch
01-24-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
What do you mean by "that good"? Crawford really hasn't shown more than Borchard at this point, other than that he can steal bases. But that doesn't do much for me because he doesn't get on base very often. He may ooze potential, but so does LTP. I don't think I'd make that trade if I were KW.

As a rookie, Crawford hit .280 with a .310 obp and stole 55 bases. How can you compare that to Borchard?

Wright is never going to be a front of the rotation guy - I wouldnt miss him. Frankly, I don't know enough about Wing to say - I'll defer to others on that. As far as LTP goes, I'd rather have a guy who has proven he can do it on the MLB level and who could fill a hole we have.

jabrch
01-24-2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Is this the same Carl Crawford with the .668 career OPS?

Why would we want him? He's no leadoff hitter.

OPS? We are talking about a leadoff hitter, not a 4 hitter.

A. Cavatica
01-24-2004, 11:58 AM
What do you think the O stands for? His OBP isn't so hot either.

munchman33
01-24-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
What do you think the O stands for? His OBP isn't so hot either.

It's better than Willie Harris leading off.

A. Cavatica
01-24-2004, 11:55 PM
Maybe, because Crawford has a higher ceiling -- but we don't have to part with Dan Wright, Joe Borchard, and Ryan Wing to get Harris.

I think we need to go get a leadoff hitter, but this trade would suck.

chisox06
01-25-2004, 12:20 AM
I like that idea. Borchard, Wright, what have ya done for me lately?? If anything Borchards stints in the Majors have hurt his trade potential. I would take Crawford for that in a minute. Just a guess here but would the sox drop some payroll too? have speed at the bottom and top of the lineup, left handed hitter leadin off. Plus it would fill one of our question marks in center, Im all for it. But it wont happen.

RichFitztightly
01-25-2004, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
He may ooze potential, but so does LTP.

Who is LTP?

Daver
01-25-2004, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by RichFitztightly
Who is LTP?

Joe Borchard.

RichFitztightly
01-25-2004, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Joe Borchard.

ummm... Am I missing a joke here?

WinningUgly!
01-25-2004, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by RichFitztightly
ummm... Am I missing a joke here?
The joke is that so many people are ready to give up on Borchard.

MisterB
01-25-2004, 03:44 AM
Originally posted by RichFitztightly


ummm... Am I missing a joke here?

LTP stands for "Light-Tower Power", in reference to Borchard's mythic power potential.

Originally posted by WinningUgly!

The joke is that so many people are ready to give up on Borchard.

When a guy who gets a record-breaking signing bonus and is mentioned in the same breath as Mark McGwire is seen hitting a weak .250 in his second go-around in AAA (injured or not), it just doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

jabrch
01-25-2004, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
The joke is that so many people are ready to give up on Borchard.


Giving up on Borchard? Nobody is "giving up". If we had the opportunity to get Crawford, a proven leadoff guy with a ton of upside, I'd be willing to part with Borchard. Wright is easy for me to part with. The one I don't know enough about is Wing, but if I am getting a guy who will hit at least .285, and steal 50+ bases, play CF, leadoff, and hit lefty, I am more than interested. The best part about that is that Crash gets moved to his more appropriate spot - 4th OF or AAAA guy.

jabrch
01-25-2004, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by RichFitztightly
Who is LTP?

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=&ltr=L

jabrch
01-25-2004, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
What do you mean by "that good"? Crawford really hasn't shown more than Borchard at this point, other than that he can steal bases. But that doesn't do much for me because he doesn't get on base very often. He may ooze potential, but so does LTP. I don't think I'd make that trade if I were KW.


Borchard oozes potential. Carl Crawford delivered, on the MLB level, in his rookie season. He oozes performance. Potential don't pay the bills.

Jjav829
01-25-2004, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Borchard oozes potential. Carl Crawford delivered, on the MLB level, in his rookie season. He oozes performance. Potential don't pay the bills.

But he didn't perform. Here's how greatly he performed, comparing him to our current starting centerfielder. Keep in mind that Rowand's numbers come with 249 less career plate appearances spread over three seasons where he's never really had a secure job. Rowand, a career .273 hitter, has a career .743 OPS - .418 SLG and .325 OBP. Crawford, a .274 hitter, has a .668 OPS - .364 SLG and .304 OBP (Yuck!). In those 249 less PA's, Rowand has 1 less walk than Crawford, the great leadoff man. The only thing that Crawford has a real advantage on, is stealing bases. Who cares about stolen bases if they guy is only getting on base at a .309 clip! He is not oozing performance. He is still oozing potential. He may get better this year, but he has not shown much to this point other than the fact that he is very fast.

jabrch
01-25-2004, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
But he didn't perform. Here's how greatly he performed, comparing him to our current starting centerfielder. Keep in mind that Rowand's numbers come with 249 less career plate appearances spread over three seasons where he's never really had a secure job. Rowand, a career .273 hitter, has a career .743 OPS - .418 SLG and .325 OBP. Crawford, a .274 hitter, has a .668 OPS - .364 SLG and .304 OBP (Yuck!). In those 249 less PA's, Rowand has 1 less walk than Crawford, the great leadoff man. The only thing that Crawford has a real advantage on, is stealing bases. Who cares about stolen bases if they guy is only getting on base at a .309 clip! He is not oozing performance. He is still oozing potential. He may get better this year, but he has not shown much to this point other than the fact that he is very fast.


Let's disregard the half season Crawford played in 2003. He wasn't a full-time starter and he was just called up. Crawford hit .281 with a .309 obp in his first full year in the MLB.

So he doesn't walk a lot - I know that sucks. Maybe Guillen and Cora can teach him the fine art of patience at the plate? But sometimes that can come with time - sometimes it doesn't.

Am I missing something? Does anyone think, at this point in time, after last year's lack of production, that Borchard is ever going to be what he was projected to be?

Jjav829
01-25-2004, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Let's disregard the half season Crawford played in 2003. He wasn't a full-time starter and he was just called up. Crawford hit .281 with a .309 obp in his first full year in the MLB.

So he doesn't walk a lot - I know that sucks. Maybe Guillen and Cora can teach him the fine art of patience at the plate? But sometimes that can come with time - sometimes it doesn't.

Am I missing something? Does anyone think, at this point in time, after last year's lack of production, that Borchard is ever going to be what he was projected to be?

Well that's the point. With time, he may become more patient and ultimately become what the Rays want him to be. But right now, he's nothing more than a bad player (his .309 OBP ranked 148th in baseball behind the likes of Marquis Grissom, Gary Matthews Jr., Roger Cedeno, Alex Sanchez, Shea Hillenbrand and just ahead of Jeromy Burnitz and Royce Clayton) who needs to fulfill his potential to ever become a good major league player. So he is being based on his potential to become better.

I don't know if Borchard will ever be what we all thought he would be when he was drafted. I saw a Jeromy Burnitz comparison somewhere and unfortunately that may be what he turns out to be.

RKMeibalane
01-25-2004, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
I don't know if Borchard will ever be what we all thought he would be when he was drafted. I saw a Jeromy Burnitz comparison somewhere and unfortunately that may be what he turns out to be.

Even that comparison may be giving Borchard too much credit. For all of his problems, Burnitz has managed to have a few good seasons in his career. Borchard is still stuck in AAA at this point, not having put toether a full season at the Major League level.

RichFitztightly
01-25-2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=&ltr=L

I completely forgot about that. Thanks.

duke of dorwood
01-25-2004, 12:21 PM
:KW

I luuuuuuuv 3 for 1 trades

WinningUgly!
01-25-2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Am I missing something? Does anyone think, at this point in time, after last year's lack of production, that Borchard is ever going to be what he was projected to be?

I don't know. He was projected by some to be the greatest power hitting switch hitter since Mickey Mantle & said to have the greatest home-run power for any player coming out of college since Mark McGwire. I wouldn't go so far as to say he'll live up to those billings, but I do believe that in the not so distant future, he'll be a much more valuable player than Carl Crawford.

jabrch
01-25-2004, 12:57 PM
I guess I am the lone member of the WhiteSox/Carl Crawford fan club.

I am not saying Borchard may not someday develop into Jeromy Burnitz - I just would rather have Crawford today than the possibility of whatever Borchard may develop into. I just don't buy into the Borchard story anymore.

I hope I am wrong - I'd love it to see Borchard be a great player for years on the South Side. I just am having a hard time seeing it after the limited exposure I have had to him.

SoxxoS
01-25-2004, 01:02 PM
I would personally love to know more in-depth about this wrist injury Borchard had, and how much it really effected him.

beckett21
01-25-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I don't know. He was projected by some to be the greatest power hitting switch hitter since Mickey Mantle & said to have the greatest home-run power for any player coming out of college since Mark McGwire.

Sure you aren't thinking of JD Drew?? He's had a helluva career himself, hasn't he? :smile:

I like Crawford, but see no way TB would trade him--definitely not for anything involving Danny Wright. I don't know how that rumor got started in the first place. I've never heard it, not that necessarily means anything at all. LTP's window seems to be closing before it fully opened, however. This is shaping up to be the year that a lot of questions get answered. As I have said in other posts, enough coddling. Let's see what these guys can actually do at the big-league level. The carrot has been dangled in front of us long enough...

And the second coming of Jeromy Burnitz would be ghastly, indeed.

SoxxoS
01-25-2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
And the second coming of Jeromy Burnitz would be ghastly, indeed.

We are selling Burnitz WAY, WAY too short.

In 97 he hit 27 homers with a .935 OPS
98- 38 homers with a .838 OPS
99- 33 homers with a .963 OPS
00- 31 homers with an .812 OPS
01- 34 homers with an .851 OPS

Then, he got traded to the Mets and really hit the fan. If we got those 4 years out of Borchard, I would be absolutely elated.

Some players just can't play in NY. Looking at his past stats, I would put Burnitz as a possible breakout performer this year if he comes to Spring Training in shape.

jabrch
01-25-2004, 01:37 PM
At Coors Field there is no excuse for him NOT to hit 35 HRs and have a high slg/ops. That said, he is a career .250 hitter with a .350 obp and a .482 slg. Not bad - but not what everyone promised us Borchard was going to be.

SoxxoS
01-25-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
At Coors Field there is no excuse for him NOT to hit 35 HRs and have a high slg/ops. That said, he is a career .250 hitter with a .350 obp and a .482 slg. Not bad - but not what everyone promised us Borchard was going to be.

Burnitz never played at Coors, if that is who you are talking about... :?:

beckett21
01-25-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Burnitz never played at Coors, if that is who you are talking about... :?:

I think his point is that Burnitz will be playing at Coors this year...so it is not exactly a stretch to say he will be a *breakout player* this year. So was Jay Payton.

Burnitz has just been way too inconsistent his career as far as a discipline standpoint. He is an all or nothing hitter. Great when he connects, but he just swings for the fences. He is a human windmill. The power numbers are nice, granted, but he is not what I would call an elite player by any stretch of the imagination. He reminds me of Rob Deer.

SoxxoS
01-25-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
I think his point is that Burnitz will be playing at Coors this year...so it is not exactly a stretch to say he will be a *breakout player* this year. So was Jay Payton.

Burnitz has just been way too inconsistent his career as far as a discipline standpoint. He is an all or nothing hitter. Great when he connects, but he just swings for the fences. He is a human windmill. The power numbers are nice, granted, but he is not what I would call an elite player by any stretch of the imagination. He reminds me of Rob Deer.

Gotcha on the first part.

He isn't an elite player, but a player I can definitely live with, ESPECIALLY from Borchard's past performances. Basically, if you would ask me right now "Would you be happy if Joe Borchard had a career like Jeromy Burnitz (up until he went to New York)?" I would say ABSOLUTELY.

jabrch
01-25-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Gotcha on the first part.

He isn't an elite player, but a player I can definitely live with, ESPECIALLY from Borchard's past performances. Basically, if you would ask me right now "Would you be happy if Joe Borchard had a career like Jeromy Burnitz (up until he went to New York)?" I would say ABSOLUTELY.

Right - my point was that this should be Burnitz's breakout - in Coors. That said, for all Borchard was hyped, if all we got was a .250, .350, .482 guy with about 30 HRs a year and well over 100 Ks per year for about 7 years, I would not be so thrilled. It would be OK, but I was not hoping for OK from Borchard.