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tanko
01-21-2004, 09:07 AM
Not a great source a poster on the cbssportsline board said he heard Chet Koppick (sp?) say they White Sox were going to trade Maggs,Valentin and prospect supposedly Neil Cotts for Randy Wolf ,Pat Burrell Marlon Byrd and Jimmy Rollins. Like I said not I good source just thought you guys might find this interesting .

DrCrawdad
01-21-2004, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by tanko
Not a great source a poster on the cbssportsline board said he heard Chet Koppick (sp?) say they White Sox were going to trade Maggs,Valentin and prospect supposedly Neil Cotts for Randy Wolf ,Pat Burrell Marlon Byrd and Jimmy Rollins. Like I said not I good source just thought you guys might find this interesting .

IIRC Baseball America said that Wolf has a no-trade clause. So that rumored trade would be contingent on Wolf approving the trade.

hold2dibber
01-21-2004, 09:14 AM
Originally posted by tanko
Not a great source a poster on the cbssportsline board said he heard Chet Koppick (sp?) say they White Sox were going to trade Maggs,Valentin and prospect supposedly Neil Cotts for Randy Wolf ,Pat Burrell Marlon Byrd and Jimmy Rollins. Like I said not I good source just thought you guys might find this interesting .

The part of that rumor that makes it most unlikely is that last off season the Phillies signed Burrell to a monsterous contract and he went out and had a year that was as bad or worse than Konerko's. He is owed $47.5 million over the next 5 seasons (although it is heavily back-loaded: $4 mm in '04, $7 mm in '05, $9.5 mm in '06, $13 mm in '07 and $14 mm in '08). I can't see the Sox agreeing to take on that contract.

With that said, it's an intriguing rumor, just because Rollins is a viable post-Jose SS alternative and Wolf is a stud (IMHO). I don't know much about Byrd, but Burrell was great in '02 and has a load of talent.

beckett21
01-21-2004, 09:32 AM
That one is hard for me to believe also, but I think we would do well if that were the deal. Byrd is going to be a stud centerfielder, he was tagged for a breakout year last year but he was injured part of the season I believe. He should be ready this year.Kind of surprises me they would trade him because he has been so highly touted.I believe he was an overall #1 prospect a few years back (I could be wrong on that). Wolf has #1 stuff,though I worry about his injury potential--he has been abused. Burrell and Rollins could be superstars. Burrell is most likely the problem here, though, because he looked absolutely awful last season and he does have a humongous contract. If they could get it done I think we would do OK though. Seems to me they would be giving up more than we would, but maybe to get rid of that Burrell contract they would do it.

SSN721
01-21-2004, 09:54 AM
Well if there is any truth to this rumor it doesnt look half bad to me, if we have to lose magglio it looks like we are getting more than our fair share of talent in return, looking at the stats on these players it seems like a very fair trade really more tilted in our favor. I would love to have Wolf on the rotation. Not watching too many Phillies games I dont know too much about the other players in the trade but seem pretty good just from the stats. Does anyone know the contracts on these guys, will we be saving a lot of money if we do this? Lose any of them after this year? Just curious. Nice to talk about a new possibility, getting burned out on the Red Sox and Dodgers. :cool:

Nick@Nite
01-21-2004, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
With that said, it's an intriguing rumor, just because Rollins is a viable post-Jose SS alternative

That Rollins can really play.

Pun intended :cool:

quade36
01-21-2004, 10:03 AM
I think this might actually be a good trade, but I don't think it will happen. Burrell plays left right??? Rollins is solid and Wolf is really good.

SEALgep
01-21-2004, 10:10 AM
I don't like it. I think Cotts has a lot of upside to him, he just needs to get control in the bigs, which he will. Maggs and Valentine, are FA next year, and the idea of getting something for them instead of nothing doesn't do anything for me. They put us in a position to win the Central, and I'm not conviced these other guys do that. Rollins has potential, but that same potential has been labeled on Uribe (who they think will be more productive when focusing more on contact than power.) Wolf would be good, but there are question marks as to him being healthy and with Schoenweiss (another ?) we have plenty of lefty starters. Two are plenty in a rotation, unless you have dominant ones like Johnson or someone of that stature (where righties don't have a distinct advantage.) With those two becoming FA, and with Maggs disappointingly unwilling to discuss an extension, the Sox free up about 20 million, with an additional 6.375 million from Koch. I don't like Burrel and his contract taking a spot that Reed should be given at a much cheaper rate. Especially for the fact that it is long and heavily back loaded. If the Sox can trade Maggs to the Dodgers for some pitching, that makes us better, than that might be the way to go. If their deal is crap, then keep him, try to win this year, and see what we can do with the money next year.

jabrch
01-21-2004, 10:13 AM
What about pulling that deal and then shipping Burrell to the Dodgers for something like Perez and Miller?

SEALgep
01-21-2004, 10:17 AM
They won't do that, but if you could work out a deal in advance, that may be something to consider. If we had Perez and Wolf and Mark, we could keep Schoenweiss in the pen as a situational pitcher. Dodgers won't do it though.

hold2dibber
01-21-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
What about pulling that deal and then shipping Burrell to the Dodgers for something like Perez and Miller?

There is no way the Dodgers would do that. My guess is that they'd only take Burrell if someone took a big bad contract off their hands or sent them a bunch of money in addition. And even then I seriously doubt that they'd give up Miller in any deal for him.

hold2dibber
01-21-2004, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I don't like it. I think Cotts has a lot of upside to him, he just needs to get control in the bigs, which he will. Maggs and Valentine, are FA next year, and the idea of getting something for them instead of nothing doesn't do anything for me. They put us in a position to win the Central, and I'm not conviced these other guys do that. Rollins has potential, but that same potential has been labeled on Uribe (who they think will be more productive when focusing more on contact than power.) Wolf would be good, but there are question marks as to him being healthy and with Schoenweiss (another ?) we have plenty of lefty starters. Two are plenty in a rotation, unless you have dominant ones like Johnson or someone of that stature (where righties don't have a distinct advantage.) With those two becoming FA, and with Maggs disappointingly unwilling to discuss an extension, the Sox free up about 20 million, with an additional 6.375 million from Koch. I don't like Burrel and his contract taking a spot that Reed should be given at a much cheaper rate. Especially for the fact that it is long and heavily back loaded. If the Sox can trade Maggs to the Dodgers for some pitching, that makes us better, than that might be the way to go. If their deal is crap, then keep him, try to win this year, and see what we can do with the money next year.

A few points:

(1) Rollins, though not perfect, has been MUCH better than Uribe to date (although that's not saying much). Plus, the Sox not only lack organizational depth at SS, they lack organizational depth at 2B, too. If Uribe has so much potential, let him beat Rollins out for SS or beat Harris out for 2B.

(2) If we're lucky, Cotts becomes as good as Wolf already is. Why take the chance, when you can have Wolf instead?

(3) Saying you don't Wolf because we already have 2 lefty starters seems nuts to me, particularly when one of those lefty starters (Schoenweiss) isn't any good. I'd much, much, much rather have Wolf in the rotation than Schoenweiss.

(4) I agree with you that blocking Reed's path would be a concern, but the truth is, the guy has only about 60 games of experience over the A level, so he likely is at least a year away from being able to contribute.

(5) Excellent point about the financial aspect of the deal. If the Sox insist upon a similar budget in '05, this deal would essentially put the Sox in the same position next off season that they're in this off season - no payroll flexibility.

(6) Your analysis didn't take Byrd's (potential) contribution into account. I don't know much about him other than that it has been said that he has a ton of potential. But so, or course, did Scott Ruffcorn.

munchman33
01-21-2004, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
I don't like it. I think Cotts has a lot of upside to him, he just needs to get control in the bigs, which he will. Maggs and Valentine, are FA next year, and the idea of getting something for them instead of nothing doesn't do anything for me. They put us in a position to win the Central, and I'm not conviced these other guys do that. Rollins has potential, but that same potential has been labeled on Uribe (who they think will be more productive when focusing more on contact than power.) Wolf would be good, but there are question marks as to him being healthy and with Schoenweiss (another ?) we have plenty of lefty starters. Two are plenty in a rotation, unless you have dominant ones like Johnson or someone of that stature (where righties don't have a distinct advantage.) With those two becoming FA, and with Maggs disappointingly unwilling to discuss an extension, the Sox free up about 20 million, with an additional 6.375 million from Koch. I don't like Burrel and his contract taking a spot that Reed should be given at a much cheaper rate. Especially for the fact that it is long and heavily back loaded. If the Sox can trade Maggs to the Dodgers for some pitching, that makes us better, than that might be the way to go. If their deal is crap, then keep him, try to win this year, and see what we can do with the money next year.

Rollins is much better than Valentin. He has been more productive than him for a couple of years now.

Randy Wolf will almost certainly have a better year than Cotts.

Maggs is better than Burrell, but Burrell has the ability to be a stud.

Marlon Byrd is a nice, center fielder who can lead-off! And he's only going to get better. Check out that .366 OBP.

So tell me, how does not doing this deal give us a better chance to compete?

CubKilla
01-21-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The part of that rumor that makes it most unlikely is that last off season the Phillies signed Burrell to a monsterous contract and he went out and had a year that was as bad or worse than Konerko's. He is owed $47.5 million over the next 5 seasons (although it is heavily back-loaded: $4 mm in '04, $7 mm in '05, $9.5 mm in '06, $13 mm in '07 and $14 mm in '08). I can't see the Sox agreeing to take on that contract.

Exactly. The Sox aren't looking to take on salary..... whether it's owed in '04 or '06-'08. The Sox are looking for the strict salary dump with little more than above-average prospects or mid-level MLBP(s) in return.

SEALgep
01-21-2004, 11:18 AM
Because it locks us up financially for years to come, with people who should be better, but not necessarily. I would rather take a chance on our young guys who are cheaper, and keep payroll down to explore other weaknesses.

Byrd may have a lot of upside, and Rowand is unpopular, but I still like Rowand and feel he has a lot of upside as well. After coming back from the minor league with a batting stance change he hit over .350. Plus his struggles were in part due to his injuries, because he is the type of player that needs the whole offseason to work hard, and that set him back. Look at the White Sox website on MLB.com and see what he does.

Cotts is young, and Cooper appears very glad to have him. That's enough for me. Is he better than Wolf, no, but he could be. I would rather have either of these guys over Schoenweiss to start, but I think they have their heart set on giving him another shot at it.

If Maggs stays, which appears to be the case now, than it's fine giving Reed another year to develop. If he is gone at any point though, I say it's time to give Reed a shot.

Rollins is a very good defensive player, but his average is well, average. Uribe has the same things going for him. The upside to Uribe is very high if he can become the contact hitter the Sox think he can. I don't see the value of getting the same type of player just to see them duke it out for the spot.

Well one of them could play second- Harris can be very good as well. I don't understand why everyody sells him short after seeing a 150 at bats, off the bench no less. He hit .400 in AAA, that's not luck.

We have several guys who can be very good if given the chance to develop. Most of us here aren't that patient. That could be the difference between being solid in years to come and being where everyone thinks we are now for years to come. At least give a year to see if he can bat .250 with some walks. Jeez, we're not the Yankees, if we don't develop them, we're going to have to keep paying 5 million for old Valentines forever to fill our roster.

MHOUSE
01-21-2004, 12:02 PM
Won't happen because of one word: salary. We unload Maggs, PK, and Valentin which frees up a lot of money, but Burrell is owed a lot and I'm sure Wolf makes decent money. Losing Cotts would be tough also and if Rollins does well then he'll need big money. Might be an interesting thought though...

munchman33
01-21-2004, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
but I still like Rowand and feel he has a lot of upside as well.

Shouldn't that be in teal?

habibharu
01-21-2004, 02:17 PM
this would be a good trade for the sox. and BTW i think that coppick in someone from sporting news.

Lip Man 1
01-21-2004, 02:35 PM
Chet is a native born Chicagoan he wrote the comment page for Bob Logan's book Miracle on 35th Street.

He now works weekends and fills in for The Sporting News radio network but has worked in Indianapolis, Chicago, New York during his career both in radio and TV. Was the sports director at WMAQ-TV

Trivia about Chet, he got his start doing the news minute cut ins on WFLD-TV back in the early 70's as well as doing the stadium announcing for the Chicago Cougars of the WHA. He became a good friend when I was in high school (I used to go to Cougar games) and game me a tour of the WFLD-TV studios (including Svengoulie's coffin!). He's a big guy like 6-8. Back in the early 70's he used to wear platform shoes making him like 6-11!

Lip

lowesox
01-21-2004, 02:38 PM
This trade would probably make the Sox the favourite in the AL central, which is why it probably won't happen.

doctor30th
01-21-2004, 03:16 PM
This trade would never happen. The Phillies would have way to many holes on there team if they did this. They would need to find a new centerfielder, Starting pitcher and Leadoff hitter.

They would be left without a SS next year and they would be sacrificing all of this for a rent a player in Magglio. This is a fantasy trade.

tanko
01-21-2004, 04:10 PM
Since the rumor comes from a guy who says Chet Coppock (that's the spelling ) said it . I emailed Chet at ChetCoppock@sportingnews.com to ask him if he said this .I doubt he'll email me back but if he does I'll let you guys know.

tanko
01-21-2004, 04:12 PM
Actually the email is Chet@sportingnews.com

gosox3072
01-21-2004, 08:41 PM
Wolf played fairly well in with the Phillies but I do not believe he has ever played in the AL. Sounds like a decent trade but seems like it wont happen.

dickallen15
01-21-2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Chet is a native born Chicagoan he wrote the comment page for Bob Logan's book Miracle on 35th Street.

He now works weekends and fills in for The Sporting News radio network but has worked in Indianapolis, Chicago, New York during his career both in radio and TV. Was the sports director at WMAQ-TV

Trivia about Chet, he got his start doing the news minute cut ins on WFLD-TV back in the early 70's as well as doing the stadium announcing for the Chicago Cougars of the WHA. He became a good friend when I was in high school (I used to go to Cougar games) and game me a tour of the WFLD-TV studios (including Svengoulie's coffin!). He's a big guy like 6-8. Back in the early 70's he used to wear platform shoes making him like 6-11!

Lip

I saw him coming out of a grocery store a couple years ago. He is as tall as you say because I'm 6'5" and he was taller than me. He also was wearing a fur coat. He looked like a pimp daddy.

soxwon
01-21-2004, 10:14 PM
i just dont trust NL players- id rather get AL guys,
but if you guys think its a good trade, ill take your word for it.
i just cant stand the NL- except i was rootin for the marlins.

gogosoxgogo
01-21-2004, 10:25 PM
I'm not sure why Philly would want that. They are in contention for next year. Maggs obviously helps but Cotts is a big part of that trade and he isn't ready yet. Why would they give up proven major leaguers who can get it done when they are trying to win. That makes no sense for them and leaves them with way too many holes.

By the way, it's NeAl Cotts... spelled the right way! :D:

RKMeibalane
01-21-2004, 10:38 PM
This won't happen. Burrell has tremendous upside, but his 2003 season was a total disaster. Besides, the Sox are intent on doing whatever they can to avoid paying for anymore long-term contracts, because Reinsdorf absolutely will not go above his sixty-million-dollar budget.

And, as mentioned above, Wolf has a no-trade clause in his contract, so he would have to approve the trade before it could go through. And I don't see him being too eager to join the Sox. Based on the intereviews I've heard with him, he seems happy in Philadelphia, so I don't think he'll be leaving anytime soon.

I've always liked Rollins, but the Phillies are high on him, as well, so he's yet one more person whom I don't see being moved. The Phillies have more to gain by hangling onto the players they have, so they don't have a reason to do this deal.

Tragg
01-22-2004, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Exactly. The Sox aren't looking to take on salary..... whether it's owed in '04 or '06-'08. The Sox are looking for the strict salary dump with little more than above-average prospects or mid-level MLBP(s) in return.

That may be what we end up with (if we wait until midseason that WILL be what we end up with) but that's not what we're shooting for now

joecrede
01-22-2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Exactly. The Sox aren't looking to take on salary..... whether it's owed in '04 or '06-'08. The Sox are looking for the strict salary dump with little more than above-average prospects or mid-level MLBP(s) in return.

Ordonez would have been gone weeks ago if the Sox were looking to dump salary. They want value for him without adding salary.

jabrch
01-22-2004, 11:43 AM
I have to believe if Philly offered this to us that we'd jump all over it. I can't see why not to. Unless Magglio decides that JR's 5/60 offer was fair, we will lose him after next season for 2 draft picks. If we can get Rollins, Burrell, Byrd and Wolf in this deal, I'd be thrilled. Byrd would immediately step in, lead off and play CF. Rollins would be an offensive improvement at SS and would be able to hit #2. Burrell could play RF (albeit poorly) and if he returns to form, would be a .275, 30, 100, 100 guy.

For Maggs, Valentin and Cotts? Sign me up!