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View Full Version : Things might be disappointing now, but look for these guys to come up BIG


Gumshoe
01-21-2004, 08:49 AM
As I write this, I'm sure KW is on his crock pot brewing up some madness to pull right before pitchers and catchers report. Think of it, though, gentlemen! Even if we don't make any moves, the division is there for the taking (which is why so many of us are fed up with this organization but that's not what this thread is about) and our team is still good.

To be positive I want to point out who I think will come up big this year:

First things first. Why are so many down on Mark Buehrle? He's had some problems, but there is no reason why he can't revert to form. I think he goes MID 3 ERA or lower and racks up some major wins. Look for him to take "ace" control of the staff again. Remember, he has a lot going for him, more experience, and he is a lefty, 2 really good attributes.

JOE CREDE is my pick for most exciting Sox player. He is really going to start to crush the ball. I say exciting because he is about to really arrive --- on offense, defense, and in solidifying a pretty solid Sox lineup.

I'm not certain about the type of years that AR or WH will have. But I love the fact that AR is going to get a shot. Actually, I would like the naysayers to of Aaron to pipe in. What numbers would you think AR cannot beat? If he hit .270 with some decent power would you still say he is a liability? I want you guys to be firm in whatever you think so you can't make BS arguments when he produces. I could be wrong, but there is one thing I am not wrong about: Rowand is a player, he works hard, he plays very good D, and he'll give us a fine shot to win.

I'll be pulling for Loaiza. His performance will be interesting to follow.

Cheers! Can you smell it? It's almost that time again ...

Gumshoe

thecell
01-21-2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Can you smell it?

I can smell something...

Frater Perdurabo
01-21-2004, 08:55 AM
Whatever Gumshoe is smoking or drinking, I want some too... :gulp:

Actually, I share your optimism about Buehrle, Crede, and I would add Olivo and Garland to that list.

And I am optimistic about Konerko; he has to hit better than he did in 2003, right? Right?

I'm concerned about CF and 2B, though, and the leadoff spot. I don't share your optimism about Rowand; CF needs to be a truly open competition between Rowand, Reed and Borchard. May the best man win.

Barring a major trade or free agent signing, the 4th and 5th starter spots ought to be open competitions as well.

jabrch
01-21-2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Rowand is a player, he works hard, he plays very good D, and he'll give us a fine shot to win.


Gumshoe,

What you are saying when you call Rowand a 'player" is that he is a "grinder" right? Grinder, in KWSpeak is a synonym for a cheap player who does nothing particularly well, but makes up for it by appearing to hustle? I played with a few guys like that in HS. They were the ones who used to slide into 1B. They were the ones who you felt caked mud on their jerseys just so they looked like they played hard that day. They were the 7-8 hitters who never made a difference.

As far as saying he works hard - good for him. They all should.

And as far as saying he plays good defense, the next time I see him get a good jump on a ball will be the first time. He is an average AT BEST defensive CF - with liabilities that might make him below average.

I hope you are right - but if the hopes of 2004 rest squarely on the shoulders of Aaron Rowand, then I am afraid.

Prediction - .270, 15, 70 and 80 with a .310 OBP and a .425 SLG -

WHOOP DEE DOO WHOOP DEE DOO

DirtySouthsider
01-21-2004, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Gumshoe,

What you are saying when you call Rowand a 'player" is that he is a "grinder" right? Grinder, in KWSpeak is a synonym for a cheap player who does nothing particularly well, but makes up for it by appearing to hustle? I played with a few guys like that in HS. They were the ones who used to slide into 1B. They were the ones who you felt caked mud on their jerseys just so they looked like they played hard that day. They were the 7-8 hitters who never made a difference.

As far as saying he works hard - good for him. They all should.

And as far as saying he plays good defense, the next time I see him get a good jump on a ball will be the first time. He is an average AT BEST defensive CF - with liabilities that might make him below average.

I hope you are right - but if the hopes of 2004 rest squarely on the shoulders of Aaron Rowand, then I am afraid.

Prediction - .270, 15, 70 and 80 with a .310 OBP and a .425 SLG -

WHOOP DEE DOO WHOOP DEE DOO


By no means do I think anyone is putting the fate of 2004 on A. Rowand.

Randar68
01-21-2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
By no means do I think anyone is putting the fate of 2004 on A. Rowand.

You must not read many GummyBear posts.

Randar68
01-21-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
As I write this, I'm sure KW is on his crock pot brewing up some madness to pull right before pitchers and catchers report. Think of it, though, gentlemen! Even if we don't make any moves, the division is there for the taking (which is why so many of us are fed up with this organization but that's not what this thread is about) and our team is still good.

To be positive I want to point out who I think will come up big this year:

First things first. Why are so many down on Mark Buehrle? He's had some problems, but there is no reason why he can't revert to form. I think he goes MID 3 ERA or lower and racks up some major wins. Look for him to take "ace" control of the staff again. Remember, he has a lot going for him, more experience, and he is a lefty, 2 really good attributes.

JOE CREDE is my pick for most exciting Sox player. He is really going to start to crush the ball. I say exciting because he is about to really arrive --- on offense, defense, and in solidifying a pretty solid Sox lineup.

I'm not certain about the type of years that AR or WH will have. But I love the fact that AR is going to get a shot. Actually, I would like the naysayers to of Aaron to pipe in. What numbers would you think AR cannot beat? If he hit .270 with some decent power would you still say he is a liability? I want you guys to be firm in whatever you think so you can't make BS arguments when he produces. I could be wrong, but there is one thing I am not wrong about: Rowand is a player, he works hard, he plays very good D, and he'll give us a fine shot to win.

I'll be pulling for Loaiza. His performance will be interesting to follow.

Cheers! Can you smell it? It's almost that time again ...

Gumshoe


This team is still a slow, no OBP, weak defensively up the middle, no leadoff hitter, no 4th or 5th starter and no bullpen team.....


Yeeeeeaaaaahhhhhh!!!!! Let's get excited!!!!



BLA!

StepsInSC
01-21-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe


First things first. Why are so many down on Mark Buehrle? He's had some problems, but there is no reason why he can't revert to form. I think he goes MID 3 ERA or lower and racks up some major wins. Look for him to take "ace" control of the staff again. Remember, he has a lot going for him, more experience, and he is a lefty, 2 really good attributes.


I'm not really 'down' on him, but his stats have been steadily declining over the past couple of years. Reason enough for many to lose faith in him. Until he shows me on the field he can turn it around I'll have my doubts, but of course I hope he does pull through big time.

CubKilla
01-21-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
This team is still a slow, no OBP, weak defensively up the middle, no leadoff hitter, no 4th or 5th starter and no bullpen team.....


Yeeeeeaaaaahhhhhh!!!!! Let's get excited!!!!



BLA!

You hit just about every reason why I have ZERO enthusiasm for SoxFest and the upcoming baseball season.

Nick@Nite
01-21-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
Whatever Gumshoe is drinking, I want some too... :gulp:

Don't hide it, divide it. :D:

jabrch
01-21-2004, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I'm not really 'down' on him, but his stats have been steadily declining over the past couple of years. Reason enough for many to lose faith in him. Until he shows me on the field he can turn it around I'll have my doubts, but of course I hope he does pull through big time.


I agree - nobody is DOWN on him. There are not BuehlreHaters anymore than Frankhaters. But to assume 40 from Buehrle and Loiza is a tremendous reach. This is a .500 team, AT BEST, given our offense and our defense. Pitching is our strength - and we only have 3 starters. If we win 81 games, I think it is a huge reach to assume that MB/ELO will get wins for 1/2 of them.

Gumshoe
01-21-2004, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
This team is still a slow, no OBP, weak defensively up the middle, no leadoff hitter, no 4th or 5th starter and no bullpen team.....


Yeeeeeaaaaahhhhhh!!!!! Let's get excited!!!!



BLA!

Let's address these issues. I wouldn't say that we are a "fast" team, but look at the lineup again, and who does in fact have speed.

Harris is as fast as anyone in the league
Maggs can steal bases
Lee can steal bases
Rowand has good speed
Jose is not slow
Olivo is fast

When you think about it, only Thomas and Konerko are "slow" runners (and Thomas isn't that slow, just lagged a bit running at this point in his career). Crede is slow, for certain.

So Randar, please making outrageous claims. My whole thing with Rowand is that we can in fact win with him. He is NOT stopping us from winning. Objective and subjective sources KNOW that Rowand and Valentin are good defensive players. Very solid, at least.

Gumshoe

ps - the concerns that you have with starting rotation and bulllpen are well-founded, no doubt. Do you say that Marte is just average though? He's lights out.

voodoochile
01-21-2004, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Let's address these issues. I wouldn't say that we are a "fast" team, but look at the lineup again, and who does in fact have speed.

Harris is as fast as anyone in the league
Maggs can steal bases
Lee can steal bases
Rowand has good speed
Jose is not slow
Olivo is fast



Okay, now let's look at how they stack up against other people at their position in the league.

Harris is above average no matte where he plays.
Olivo is above average for a catcher.
Lee is about average for a LF
Maggs is slightly above average for a RF (has horrible base stealing skills though and seems to lack good judgement about when to use them).
Jose doesn't steal many bases anymore and is about average for SS speedwise.
Rowand is below average speedwise for a CF.

Doesn't look so hot now does it?

bc2k
01-21-2004, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe

Gumshoe

Why do people rip on ARow like he's the worst player on the team--excluding Thomas--when Crede isn't much better? Potential? F that, Crede ain't ****. I'm betting Rowand's 2004 stats will be near Crede's. I only see Crede outperforming ARow in home runs (because of his 3 pound bat), but average and OBP will be close. Also, with ARow, you won't have to worry about half-season-long slumps like with Crede, who, like Skirt, gets hot the day after elimination.

ARow will also provide better baserunning and defense over Crede, who still gets praise for his great D when he hasn't earned that praise. He pusses out on fly balls near the fence and dugout, stabs at the in-between hops, takes too much time to get rid of the ball after he has fielded it, and allows a baserunner on second base to advance to third who is running right at Crede.

I'm going out on a limb and saying ARow and his compact swing will have a higher 2004 batting average than Crede and his Swiss Cheese bat.

StepsInSC
01-21-2004, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Why do people rip on ARow like he's the worst player on the team--excluding Thomas--when Crede isn't much better?


Someone's trying mighty hard to get people stirred up.

voodoochile
01-21-2004, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Someone's trying to get people stirred up.

Just ignore him. I try to...

chisoxmike
01-21-2004, 03:41 PM
I'll be fine if they DON'T TRADE ANY OF THEIR MAJOR PLAYERS! The team can win (keyword is can) if the team doesn't get broke apart.

pudge
01-21-2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, now let's look at how they stack up against other people at their position in the league.

Harris is above average no matte where he plays.
Olivo is above average for a catcher.
Lee is about average for a LF
Maggs is slightly above average for a RF (has horrible base stealing skills though and seems to lack good judgement about when to use them).
Jose doesn't steal many bases anymore and is about average for SS speedwise.
Rowand is below average speedwise for a CF.

Doesn't look so hot now does it?

Lee may even be slightly above average... you've basically pointed out that we have a lot of above average guys, the thing is, we've never really *used* our speed effectively... I don't know if it's because of being a homer-happy team in the AL or what, but we seem to make bad baserunning decisions instead of utilizing our speed at the right moments.

voodoochile
01-21-2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Lee may even be slightly above average... you've basically pointed out that we have a lot of above average guys, the thing is, we've never really *used* our speed effectively... I don't know if it's because of being a homer-happy team in the AL or what, but we seem to make bad baserunning decisions instead of utilizing our speed at the right moments.

Yes, but an above average LF doesn't mean he is a speedy guy. Same goes for RF and C positions. In effect the Sox are faster at slow positions. Doesn't make them a speedy team. Most teams won't let their catcher steal a lot of bases anyway. The risk is too great that he will get injured and catchers already take a bunch of knee abuse as it is.

In addition there is no guarantee that Harris - the sole guy on the list that anyone would call "fast" has yet to prove he can get on base enough to use his speed to his advantage. His future maybe as a PR/Def substitue, which would really really lessen the impact of his being one of the fastest guys in the league.

You are also correct, the Sox utilize their speed badly. I think Ozzie will be better about it than JM, but then again, I would be better at it than JM who clearly quit on the team.

SoxFan76
01-21-2004, 04:14 PM
wow, can we be a little optimistic here? i respect that sox fans dont just wet their pants every year regardless of the roster, but act like you are a white sox fan. (by 'you' im referring to most the posters here.)

will they make the playoffs? not too sure about that. but this team i feel will be above .500. im not looking for too much out of crede or olivo offensively, but konerko will make a big comeback this year. buerhle will be fine. many seem to forget that last year was the worst year of konerkos baseball career. same for buerhle. they are not mediocre players. they have proven they can play, and succeed at a major league level. while on the other hand, olivo crede, harris, borchard, garland havent proven crap. especially borchard. i dont see one positive in the guy. atleast harris is fast, crede is capable of hitting and plays great D, and olivo has a cannon. borchard has proven nothing to me.

i like rowand. that subject has been argued about enough. so ill leave it at that.

the pitching staff is weak, i agree. maybe a few signings can atleast bring a little credibility to the pen. marte is good, and im expecting a resurgance from koch. maybe not back to oakland form, but i feel he will be fine. wunsch is alright, and im not too familiar with the minor leaguers.

i expect atleast a division title. theres no way a central team can survive in the playoffs though.

Daver
01-21-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Why do people rip on ARow like he's the worst player on the team--excluding Thomas--when Crede isn't much better? Potential? F that, Crede ain't ****. I'm betting Rowand's 2004 stats will be near Crede's.

I doubt that,but I will add that even if they are close,Crede can at least play above average defense to back it up,something Rowand will never do.

Gumshoe
01-21-2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by SoxFan76
wow, can we be a little optimistic here? i respect that sox fans dont just wet their pants every year regardless of the roster, but act like you are a white sox fan. (by 'you' im referring to most the posters here.)

will they make the playoffs? not too sure about that. but this team i feel will be above .500. im not looking for too much out of crede or olivo offensively, but konerko will make a big comeback this year. buerhle will be fine. many seem to forget that last year was the worst year of konerkos baseball career. same for buerhle. they are not mediocre players. they have proven they can play, and succeed at a major league level. while on the other hand, olivo crede, harris, borchard, garland havent proven crap. especially borchard. i dont see one positive in the guy. atleast harris is fast, crede is capable of hitting and plays great D, and olivo has a cannon. borchard has proven nothing to me.

i like rowand. that subject has been argued about enough. so ill leave it at that.

the pitching staff is weak, i agree. maybe a few signings can atleast bring a little credibility to the pen. marte is good, and im expecting a resurgance from koch. maybe not back to oakland form, but i feel he will be fine. wunsch is alright, and im not too familiar with the minor leaguers.

i expect atleast a division title. theres no way a central team can survive in the playoffs though.

A fair assessment, finally. Good stuff.

Soxfan76:

Guys like Daver and Voodoo, while rightfully skeptic because of schmucks like KW and JR, go overboard. Magglio is "above average" for a RF? He's one of the most consistent, best players in the whole game. The idiocy on this board sometimes astounds me. Who else can GUARANTEE you .300, 30, 100+ at least with good solid D. come on. call a spade a spade man. Ordonez didn't get "lucky" all those years/

Konerko and Buehrle HAVE proved they can play. I personally think Crede will be a star. I'm doubtful of Harris, yes. Garland I love, but he has to break his inconsistency. i won't talk about rowand anymore on here. A left handed bat would be nice. I hope this new closer works out. Who knows, maybe Ozzie will put a winning attitude out there. here's to hoping ...

TornLabrum
01-21-2004, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Harris is as fast as anyone in the league

Too bad you can't steal first.

SoxFan76
01-21-2004, 08:28 PM
Magglio is the last guy I am worried about. Unfortunately, he probably will not be a part of the White Sox next year, but as Gumshoe said, any guy guaranteed to hit above .300 with 100 RBI's is fine with me. I like how our one star in the media doesn't even get respect from his own fans. Oh well.

voodoochile
01-21-2004, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
A fair assessment, finally. Good stuff.

Soxfan76:

Guys like Daver and Voodoo, while rightfully skeptic because of schmucks like KW and JR, go overboard. Magglio is "above average" for a RF? He's one of the most consistent, best players in the whole game. The idiocy on this board sometimes astounds me. Who else can GUARANTEE you .300, 30, 100+ at least with good solid D. come on. call a spade a spade man. Ordonez didn't get "lucky" all those years/

Konerko and Buehrle HAVE proved they can play. I personally think Crede will be a star. I'm doubtful of Harris, yes. Garland I love, but he has to break his inconsistency. i won't talk about rowand anymore on here. A left handed bat would be nice. I hope this new closer works out. Who knows, maybe Ozzie will put a winning attitude out there. here's to hoping ...

I was talking about Ordonez speed being above average. Reading is a skill. Maybe you need to learn it...

hose
01-21-2004, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
You hit just about every reason why I have ZERO enthusiasm for SoxFest and the upcoming baseball season.


Did you say ZERO ? :D:

http://www.baywell.ne.jp/users/drlatham/baseball/yakult/images/pix/takatsu.jpg

They call me Mr. Zero

CubKilla
01-21-2004, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by hose
Did you say ZERO ? :D:

http://www.baywell.ne.jp/users/drlatham/baseball/yakult/images/pix/takatsu.jpg

They call me Mr. Zero

:cleo

"Killa's been on a psychic streak lately"
:)

bc2k
01-22-2004, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Daver
I doubt that,but I will add that even if they are close,Crede can at least play above average defense to back it up,something Rowand will never do.

Oh, you're a Clayton fan, now I see your point of view. .220 hitters with above average defense isn't what I'm looking for though. Crede ended up hitting .261, but didn't get over .240 until the middle of August. He spent *four and a half months* of the season bouncing from the .220s to the .230s and reached a season-low .206 in the middle of the summer. AROW OWNS CREDE. Hell, Julio Ramirez owns Crede.

Hey Joey Baloney, when a guy in the opposing uniform (I know, it's tough since you play like 15 opposing teams and see 15 different uniforms) is running at you and you have the ball, it *might* be a good idea to tag him out. Especially in the biggest series of the season. On a team of bone-headed morons, you managed to take the cake in the most important series of the season.

chisoxmike
01-22-2004, 12:35 AM
I would LOVE to think that they will surprise us this year, but will we throw in the towel if we have a slow start like last season?

:therapy
Opens 4/5/04