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jordan23ventura
01-20-2004, 08:04 PM
If you could make just one personnel change in the organization, besides removing JR or KW, who would you fire and who would you replace him with?

SoxxoS
01-20-2004, 08:06 PM
I like KW so I would already boot Ozzie and replace him with Jim Leylund.

Huisj
01-20-2004, 08:20 PM
i think they need to switch announcers

:chimp
"The lovable, hugable white sox take the field on this happy day at the cellular phone, er, i mean field. hehe, well it just isn't baseball without the cell phones, right stoney"



meanwhile, at wrigley:

:hawk
"mercy, this place is a dump"



:rooney
"Swing and a miss, strike three. mark prior is really throwing smoke now, ed"


:farmer
"As good as mark prior is, i still have to say that ben mcdonald was the best college pitcher i've ever seen, period"

:lynch&mcfail
"sorry ed, you're fired, you can't disgrace god like that on the air"

lowesox
01-20-2004, 08:32 PM
I can see why you'd say aside for Reinsdorf, but I think you should include Kenny in that list. After all, he can be fired - the owner can't.

Without question KW would be my change. With a budget this low you need to have a good GM. I honestly believe Williams is the worst GM in baseball. He's lucky he has Reinsdorf and his idiotic 'budget' to hide behind. But look at what Ricciardi has done in Toronto. He didn't have a lot of money to play with.

Williams is crap. I'd say 80% of his acquisitions fail miserably. That's not good enough. And the talent within this organization has dropped consistently each year since he's taken over.

beckett21
01-20-2004, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Williams is crap. I'd say 80% of his acquisitions fail miserably. That's not good enough. And the talent within this organization has dropped consistently each year since he's taken over. [/B]

I don't see the problem here. A .200 winning percentage works for the Bulls and the Blackhawks....what, you hold the Sox to a higher standard? :cool:

34 Inch Stick
01-21-2004, 08:30 AM
Rob Gallas gone...Bill Veek Jr. welcome.

ewokpelts
01-21-2004, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Rob Gallas gone...Bill Veek Jr. welcome.

I'd sack Gallas too, but replace him with me. I think I can get more than 12 thousand people in a night...
Gene

Frater Perdurabo
01-21-2004, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Rob Gallas gone...Bill Veek Jr. welcome.

Yes.

maurice
01-21-2004, 12:03 PM
This one is easy. I'd replace Robert Person with Tim Hudson.

:)

CubKilla
01-21-2004, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I can see why you'd say aside for Reinsdorf, but I think you should include Kenny in that list. After all, he can be fired - the owner can't.

Without question KW would be my change. With a budget this low you need to have a good GM. I honestly believe Williams is the worst GM in baseball. He's lucky he has Reinsdorf and his idiotic 'budget' to hide behind. But look at what Ricciardi has done in Toronto. He didn't have a lot of money to play with.

Williams is crap. I'd say 80% of his acquisitions fail miserably. That's not good enough. And the talent within this organization has dropped consistently each year since he's taken over.

Agreed. If you cannot replace JR, KW is the first that needs to go. Botch's contract is a perfect example and so is Konerko's..... but to a lesser degree. The reason for this is because I think there is a much greater upside to Konerko. Botch, on the other hand, has zero upside with his laser-beam 91 MPH meatballs.

Palehose13
01-21-2004, 12:16 PM
Gallas is my choice and I would replace him with Frater.

HITMEN OF 77
01-21-2004, 12:48 PM
If it was up to me, Gallas would be leaving on jet plane.

Frater Perdurabo
01-21-2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Gallas is my choice and I would replace him with Frater.


Originally posted by HITMEN OF 77
If it was up to me, Gallas would be leaving on jet plane.

"I'm Gallas, on a jet plane, don't know when I'll be back again."

As the Sox new PR director, this would be my first promotion.

:)

Frater Perdurabo
01-21-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
"I'm Gallas, on a jet plane, don't know when I'll be back again."

As the Sox new PR director, this would be my first promotion.

:)

My second act would be to spike JR's coffee with Ex-Lax. My third act would be to bribe JR's physician to tell the Chairman that it is time to sell the Sox to Donald Trump. My final act would be to resign and hire Bill Veeck, Jr. as PR director.

Palehose13
01-21-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
My second act would be to spike JR's coffee with Ex-Lax. My third act would be to bribe JR's physician to tell the Chairman that it is time to sell the Sox to Donald Trump. My final act would be to resign and hire Bill Veeck, Jr. as PR director.

LMAO! But Frater, after your response on the "owner" thread I think you would do a great job!

Randar68
01-21-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by HITMEN OF 77
If it was up to me, Gallas would be leaving on jet plane.

Add me to that list. I'd also hire Tommy John (although not in the same capacity, obviously)

Firing Ozzie and replacing him with someone along the lines of Cito Gaston would be a close second.

Tekijawa
01-21-2004, 01:51 PM
I'd rotate the Park to face down town and change the seats to green... or does that count as two things?

ewokpelts
01-21-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Gallas is my choice and I would replace him with Frater.

Who's Frater?
Gene

duke of dorwood
01-21-2004, 02:11 PM
This org has been on steady decline since Williams took over.

He has had sufficient time to put his stamp on it-and he has.

HE STINKS-and has yet to come up with a creative idea to improve things

Randar68
01-21-2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
This org has been on steady decline since Williams took over.

He has had sufficient time to put his stamp on it-and he has.

HE STINKS-and has yet to come up with a creative idea to improve things

HUH!? He traded for Alomar, Everett and Sullivan down the stretch despite restrictions placed upon him by management to not take on any salary. In addition, he worked a trade for Colon where he gave up next to nothing!!!!

I don't know how creative you can be with the payroll restrictions you have here, but he's been the most "creative" GM in baseball the past 18 months, so I think you need a little education here on the facts.

SoxFan78
01-21-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
HUH!? He traded for Alomar, Everett and Sullivan down the stretch despite restrictions placed upon him by management to not take on any salary. In addition, he worked a trade for Colon where he gave up next to nothing!!!!

I don't know how creative you can be with the payroll restrictions you have here, but he's been the most "creative" GM in baseball the past 18 months, so I think you need a little education here on the facts.

I agree with this 100%. You can't blame KW for not trying. He has always tried to make this team better, despite having a minor league payroll.

If I could make one change, get JR out of here for Mark Cuban, or maybe one of the Maloof Brothers

lowesox
01-21-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
HUH!? He traded for Alomar, Everett and Sullivan down the stretch despite restrictions placed upon him by management to not take on any salary. In addition, he worked a trade for Colon where he gave up next to nothing!!!!

I don't know how creative you can be with the payroll restrictions you have here, but he's been the most "creative" GM in baseball the past 18 months, so I think you need a little education here on the facts.

I don't think any of the trades listed in your post show Kenny's a good GM. Creative maybe. But creativity means nothing if it ends up hurting the team in the end. I'll admit, I liked some of those trades when they happened, but now in retrospect they were ALL mistakes. Even the Colon trade. None of those players put us over the top. Mainly because Williams was to stupid to know that he should fire Manuel after the first month of the season.

The point is we lost several good young players in those trades and what do we have to show for it now? Nothing. Except maybe a roster that is in shambles now.

doctor30th
01-21-2004, 04:28 PM
One change... Sign me to a 10 year 200 mil deal to be there starting shortstop.

After they find out I stink, I can use the remainder of my contract as a retirement fund.

voodoochile
01-21-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I don't think any of the trades listed in your post show Kenny's a good GM. Creative maybe. But creativity means nothing if it ends up hurting the team in the end. I'll admit, I liked some of those trades when they happened, but now in retrospect they were ALL mistakes. Even the Colon trade. None of those players put us over the top. Mainly because Williams was to stupid to know that he should fire Manuel after the first month of the season.

The point is we lost several good young players in those trades and what do we have to show for it now? Nothing. Except maybe a roster that is in shambles now.

Okay, what players did they lose that would help the team right now?

You say "good young players" specifically which ones are you referring to?

Frater Perdurabo
01-21-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by ewokpelts
Who's Frater?
Gene

Me :)

lowesox
01-21-2004, 04:41 PM
Royce Ring
Anthony Webster
Josh Rupe
Rocky Biddle

Only Biddle could help this year. But Ring and Webster would both be VERY nice to have back.

voodoochile
01-21-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Royce Ring
Anthony Webster
Josh Rupe
Rocky Biddle

Only Biddle could help this year. But Ring and Webster would both be VERY nice to have back.

Why? A minor league reliever is nothing major to lose for the most part. Probably anyone of the starter prospects we have can do what he does if they fail as a starter. Webster is in AA ball and the Sox have 4 guys who are bigger prospects before taking into account guys like Lee and Magglio.

Biddle blew 7 saves last year and had an ERA of 4.65. I like Biddle personally, but he isn't exactly a world beater. Can you imagine what the fans would be calling him if he had been on the Sox?

lowesox
01-21-2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Why? A minor league reliever is nothing major to lose for the most part. Probably anyone of the starter prospects we have can do what he does if they fail as a starter. Webster is in AA ball and the Sox have 4 guys who are bigger prospects before taking into account guys like Lee and Magglio.

Biddle blew 7 saves last year and had an ERA of 4.65. I like Biddle personally, but he isn't exactly a world beater. Can you imagine what the fans would be calling him if he had been on the Sox?

Who would you rather have: Rocky Biddle or Cliff Politte? Biddle may have 7 blown saves, but he did save 34 games. I'd take that this year in a heartbeat. Especially when you consider what our two closers this season, did last year.

Koch 11 saves 4 BS
Marte 11 saves 7 BS

* Also, (and I know that stats aren't everything - but for the sake of argument) when you include Gordon (12 saves 5 blown saves) you get 34 saves (same as Biddle) and 5 blown saves. Which makes a total of 16 blown saves from our closers last year.

As for Webster and Ring - these are two very highly rated prospects. Ring won't just be a middle reliever - he'll be a closer.

maurice
01-21-2004, 06:05 PM
Koch was the Sox primary closer through June 2003 and was 11-for-14 in save opportunities. In the second half, Marte was 7-for-7 in save opportunities, and Gordon was 9-for-10. Relievers are eligible to earn blown saves even when they are not brought in to close the game.

Randar68
01-21-2004, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I don't think any of the trades listed in your post show Kenny's a good GM. Creative maybe. But creativity means nothing if it ends up hurting the team in the end. I'll admit, I liked some of those trades when they happened, but now in retrospect they were ALL mistakes. Even the Colon trade. None of those players put us over the top. Mainly because Williams was to stupid to know that he should fire Manuel after the first month of the season.

The point is we lost several good young players in those trades and what do we have to show for it now? Nothing. Except maybe a roster that is in shambles now.

Well, they turned Rocky Biddle into an 1-year renta-Ace and 2 high draft picks. But hey, I can't see how that could possibly have helped the team...



BLA!

Randar68
01-21-2004, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I don't think any of the trades listed in your post show Kenny's a good GM. Creative maybe. But creativity means nothing if it ends up hurting the team in the end. I'll admit, I liked some of those trades when they happened, but now in retrospect they were ALL mistakes. Even the Colon trade. None of those players put us over the top. Mainly because Williams was to stupid to know that he should fire Manuel after the first month of the season.

The point is we lost several good young players in those trades and what do we have to show for it now? Nothing. Except maybe a roster that is in shambles now.

1) Was it Williams' decision on Manual?
2) If they sneak into the playoffs with that roster and Loaiza, Colon and Buehrle in the playoffs, you don't think they would have had one hell of a good chance?


The original post criticized Williams for not being creative. You admitted he was. Argument over.

Next topic.

Randar68
01-21-2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
As for Webster and Ring - these are two very highly rated prospects. Ring won't just be a middle reliever - he'll be a closer.

We'll see. I'd agree to set-up man, but to say you're being premature is an understatement.

As for Biddle... HE HAD A 4.65 ERA!!!!!! I love the guy, but for Christ's sake, get off you knees and wake up.

Williams has made some bad decisions and mistakes, such as contract extensions for Koch and Konerko, but to say he hasn't been creative flies in the face of all the facts, whether or not you chose to plead ignorance and ignore them, since your mind is made up before-hand, is up to you.

Paulwny
01-21-2004, 06:37 PM
It would have been interesting to see the moves KW would have made if he didn't have a budget axe over his head.

lowesox
01-21-2004, 07:39 PM
Like you said, I agreed that he was creative. But, what I was saying is that his creativity has been irresponsible. Sure, Colon was a rent-a-ace who didn't cost a lot. Sure the Sox would have been interesting had they made the playoffs. But they didn't. And as the GM, he's responsible. He gave away several good young players (you could arguably insert Jimenez into this group as well, although I won't because even I'm not sure about that argument) and now, I think this team's roster is screwed.

Look at it.

It's not a young team getting better. It's not a veteran team ready to make a push. It's just an assembly of okay players (some very good, some very bad) who might slide by and make the playoffs, but are more likely to be mediocre for a few years before they eventually rebuild.

Sorry to say it, but I think this is a product of Kenny's "creativity."

jordan23ventura
01-21-2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


HUH!? He traded for Alomar, Everett and Sullivan down the stretch despite restrictions placed upon him by management to not take on any salary. In addition, he worked a trade for Colon where he gave up next to nothing!!!!

I don't know how creative you can be with the payroll restrictions you have here, but he's been the most "creative" GM in baseball the past 18 months, so I think you need a little education here on the facts.


Exactly. As negative of a reaction that KW may receive right now, can you imagine what the fans would say about him had he not made those deals? Especially if the fans knew he would have picked up Alomar, Everett, Sullivan and Schoenweis for next to nothing?

Everyone would have been saying that those trades would have surely revitalized the team and gotten us to the playoffs, but now we are stuck with some minor leaguers who are not ready to play - oh yeah, and Gary Glover too.

Daver
01-21-2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by lowesox


Sorry to say it, but I think this is a product of Kenny's "creativity."

Really this is the end of Schuelers lack of creativity,the drunk didn't draft well for years,and the result is a lack of talent in the upper level of the system,while the lower levels that KW has drafted have a lot of very good talent amongst them.

You cannot undo nine years worth of Schuelers poor decisions overnight,it is going to take awhile.


And I will not miss a single one of the prospects traded away for Everret and Alomar,I wouldn't be surprised if Ring was the only one among them to make the Majors.

lowesox
01-21-2004, 08:13 PM
Kenny Williams inherited a team that was playoff ready and young. Each year he's worked at making it worse.

Do you honestly think this team is in better shape now than when Kenny took oveR?

Daver
01-21-2004, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Kenny Williams inherited a team that was playoff ready and young. Each year he's worked at making it worse.

Do you honestly think this team is in better shape now than when Kenny took oveR?

I think the entire minor league system is in far better shape from 4 years ago.

No,he inherited a team that got lucky in 2000,and a good number of players that were going to be FA's,with a budget that was not going to allow him to bring back the entire team,and a farm system that was not going to help anytime soon,he made the moves he felt he needed to make to remain competetive.

lowesox
01-22-2004, 12:54 AM
In 2000, the White Sox won Baseball America's organization of the year.

Alan Simpson, the editor of Baseball America, said of the 2000 Chicago White Sox,"It's rare that an organization can simultaneously improve its major league club and upgrade its farm system, but the White Sox did that this year."

Sounds like Kenny inherited a real loser.

Randar68
01-22-2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
In 2000, the White Sox won Baseball America's organization of the year.

Alan Simpson, the editor of Baseball America, said of the 2000 Chicago White Sox,"It's rare that an organization can simultaneously improve its major league club and upgrade its farm system, but the White Sox did that this year."

Sounds like Kenny inherited a real loser.

And guess who was in charge of Player Development leading up to that?

Hmmmm.....

But hey, don't let your hatred stand in the way. You have an obvious agenda (don't bother to deny it, as you have an undeniable connection here), so you might as well stick a sock in it and save some face.


Williams served as the club’s vice president of player development for four seasons (1997-2000.) Under his direction, the White Sox were named 2000 Organization of the Year by Baseball America, USA Today and Howe SportsData. Seven products of the Sox farm system, including six pitchers, made their majorleague debuts in 2000 as the White Sox posted the best record in the American League at 95-67.

Now please shut your cake-hole before you dig any deeper.

lowesox
01-22-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
And guess who was in charge of Player Development leading up to that? [/B]

Did you read what my post was about? Daver posted that Kenny Williams inherited a team that was full of holes. My post was to argue that the team he inherited was actually in good shape. Sure, he was part of a group that got the team to that position, but Shueler was the guy who was ultimately responsible for it.

Was Kenny Williams good as the director of player develop? Yes. Is he a good GM? No. Why? Because he's irresponsible. In my opinion he's a guy who needs to have somebody above him. Somebody who is a little more cautious. Because, like I've said over and over Kenny is very creative but not very responsible.

Originally posted by Randar68
Now please shut your cake-hole before you dig any deeper. [/B]

Oh. And a little advice: you shouldn't get so personal. It makes you sound ignorant.

Randar68
01-22-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Oh. And a little advice: you shouldn't get so personal. It makes you sound ignorant.

HAHAHAHA. Now that's funny.

Tell me again how bad Kenny Williams has been in terms of his handing of the farm system. Maybe I'm just being ignorant of the facts, or just ignorant, maybe you can help...



BLAH!

How's Sean doing these days? Still bitter I take it.