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JRIG
01-20-2004, 03:08 PM
I am not trying to beat a dead horse here. I realize this information will not change the minds of anyone who thinks Jimenez is a brain-dead, no talent, non-hustling loser. But please keep this in the back of your mind as you contemplate beginning a season with Willie Harris as our starting second baseman. From baseballprospectus.com today:

In 2003 [Jimenez] landed in Cincinnati, putting up a solid line of .290/.365/.421 in 290 at-bats with the Reds. This winter in the Dominican the 26-year-old infielder had arguably the best offensive season for a second baseman in the
history of the league, winning the batting title (.360), flirting with the single-season OBP record before finishing at .485, and also slugging an even .500, all while playing half his games in a pitcher's park.

Dadawg_77
01-20-2004, 03:14 PM
Maybe he just needed a wake up call, unfortunately the Sox provided it to him by letting him go for a wash up veteran.

SoxOnTop
01-20-2004, 03:27 PM
I think that most Sox fans agree that the kid had talent. He was just a lazy moron. It's too bad we won't be able to see what Ozzie would have done with him. Although, I think Harris could be a real surprise next year.

Just give Hollywood a chance!!!

depy48
01-20-2004, 03:32 PM
harris has better defensive range, and...more speed.

boog_alou
01-20-2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
I think that most Sox fans agree that the kid had talent. He was just a lazy moron. It's too bad we won't be able to see what Ozzie would have done with him. Although, I think Harris could be a real surprise next year.
I would be surprised if Harris had an OPS higher than .600 next year. I would also be surprised if Jiminez had an OPS under .750. Trading Jiminez away was NOT a good move. He needed different coaching. Now the Sox are stuck with Harris, and they've traded away Hummel and Miles, so the cupboard is bare. Not wise.

boog_alou
01-20-2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by depy48
harris has better defensive range, and...more speed.
Sounds like a decent defensive replacement to me.

voodoochile
01-20-2004, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
I would be surprised if Harris had an OPS higher than .600 next year. I would also be surprised if Jiminez had an OPS under .750. Trading Jiminez away was NOT a good move. He needed different coaching. Now the Sox are stuck with Harris, and they've traded away Hummel and Miles, so the cupboard is bare. Not wise.

I think they are counting on Uribe to challenge for the starting 2B slot this year and hope that Uribe and Harris both develop for next year to take over for Valentin.

Not sure that is a good idea, but hey, it's what we've got...

Gumshoe
01-20-2004, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
I think that most Sox fans agree that the kid had talent. He was just a lazy moron. It's too bad we won't be able to see what Ozzie would have done with him. Although, I think Harris could be a real surprise next year.

Just give Hollywood a chance!!!

I'm not totally convinced that Harris will be a problem at 2B, actually. But you all know I was all about Jimenez, and rightly so, because he is a REALLY good player, regardless of what other fools on this board think. He carried us early offensively, and my feeling always was that he was the victim of many Sox fans frustrations with the ENTIRE team. They didn't remember when he actually won games for us. I have already pointed these out. That being said, he did make a few bad errors, but he was a really good player in general. I'm a fan, and I'll continue to monitor his progress along with other favorites like Foulke that we let go under dubious circumstances.

I'm just happy that we aren't forcing anything. Just let WH and AR play, and let's see!

Gumshoe

jeremyb1
01-20-2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
I'm not totally convinced that Harris will be a problem at 2B, actually. But you all know I was all about Jimenez, and rightly so, because he is a REALLY good player, regardless of what other fools on this board think.

Hehe. Its funny that the Jimenez supporters are coming out of the wordwork now because I can't recall too many when I lambasted management for giving him away last season. I'll say the same thing now I said then, I'd much rather have him as the incumbent over Harris this season if Alomar leaves.

Anyways, I'm glad someone posted some of the BP interview. A few other really good highlights that relate to issues discussed on this board in the past:

Baseball Prospectus: For a player with such obvious abilities, and also, one who was a good prospect, your career has been marked by instability: three organizations (Padres, White Sox, Reds) in three years. Why is that? Why do you think you're unappreciated?

D'Angelo Jiménez: Well, I'd sure like to know why. Sometimes you get to a team and start doing a good job, and sometimes, as you know, all players can get into a slump. What has happened with me is that, when I've fallen into those slumps, the organization seems to lose faith in me. It's like if all of a sudden they realize I'm just not good anymore, almost inexplicably.

BP: Don't you think it could be a perception thing, maybe some sort of "attitude" label or something like that?

DJ: With every team I've played for I've tried to do the best I can, and give the best of myself as a player. But sometimes you just get into a slump and the teams start to doubt your abilities and suddenly try to deal you somewhere else.

BP: How would you describe the White Sox experience, when they put you on waivers to bring in a player like Roberto Alomar, who, in terms of performance, was having a worse season than you were, and in the end was not an upgrade at the position?

DJ: What happened in Chicago took me by surprise. I was hitting very well the first couple of months, and then I slumped, and suddenly I was unwanted. Anyway, thank God I went to Cincinnati where they gave me the chance and I did well there.

Finally, the scariest thought of all in my opinion is that not only did we give up a valuable player without receiving anything in return due to becoming overly obsessed with "attitude" perhaps he only flashed his actual ability in his time here:

BP: From a baseball standpoint, what negative effects did the accident have in you? What did you lose physically?

DJ: I lost many skills at that time, but I've been able to recover them almost 100%. I lost lateral movement and range, and as a result I was moved to second base from my natural position, which was shortstop. I lost power, bat speed and bat control. Now, I'm doing a lot better in all those areas. This is going to be a key year for me because, as it was late last season, I feel that all my skills were almost 100% back to normal.

lowesox
01-20-2004, 07:36 PM
I can't believe how many people defend Willie Harris. He's awful. Sure, he's fast but he never gets on base. He's had plenty of opportunities and done nothing.

As a fan, I'm insulted that he's just been given a starting spot when he's done nothing at all to earn it.

SoxOnTop
01-20-2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
As a fan, I'm insulted that he's just been given a starting spot when he's done nothing at all to earn it.

When was he given the chance to earn the spot? In his sparse 137 AB's last year?

I'm not saying this kid is going to be an all-star, but he hits .400 every time we send him back to AAA. It's worth it to give him some consistant time and see what he can do?

lowesox
01-20-2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
When was he given the chance to earn the spot? In his sparse 137 AB's last year?

I'm not saying this kid is going to be an all-star, but he hits .400 every time we send him back to AAA. It's worth it to give him some consistant time and see what he can do?

At the beginning of last year Aaron Rowand blew. Willie Harris was called up to play CF for a while. But, he sucked too. So they tried Borchard, and then Rowand again. And then Everett. The point in all this is that they were desperate for a decent player and realized Harris wasn't one.

After being given a golden opportunity and failing, he's done little to earn this uncontested starting spot.

dickallen15
01-20-2004, 08:24 PM
Before anyone puts Jimenez in the Hall of Fame, remember people were very high on him coming into last season. Valentin said he always had to keep on him about concentration and effort. This guy has a lot of ability. Maybe the White Sox dumping him was a wake up call. There's probably a better chance the Reds will be looking to dump him by June.

duke of dorwood
01-20-2004, 09:03 PM
You cant take the lazy out of the Jiminez

SEALgep
01-20-2004, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
At the beginning of last year Aaron Rowand blew. Willie Harris was called up to play CF for a while. But, he sucked too. So they tried Borchard, and then Rowand again. And then Everett. The point in all this is that they were desperate for a decent player and realized Harris wasn't one.

After being given a golden opportunity and failing, he's done little to earn this uncontested starting spot.

Rowand hit over .350 when being called back up from AAA in July. Harris will be fine. He needs the at bats- 150 isn't going to do it. He needs consistency, and having Guillen as his manager will help him.

beckett21
01-20-2004, 09:19 PM
Didn't he have to skip the game against the Padres in spring training because their whole team wanted a piece of him? Real team player that D'angelo. A great leader of men.

SEALgep
01-20-2004, 09:31 PM
It's similar to the Ron Artest situation with the Bulls. It wasn't necessarily his talent as to why they traded him, it was his attitude. Why do you thinkBoston wanted to trade Manny. Not cuz he sucks. Harris will develop into a good second baseman and hitter. He will be a true lead off hitter. Jimenez is a good hitter, but not a typical leadoff hitter. Harris fits Guillen's style of play much better.

beckett21
01-20-2004, 09:36 PM
:ozzie:

"OK, gimme my glove. Jose', you move to second base. What, you thought I came here only to coach?" :D:

SoxOnTop
01-20-2004, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
:ozzie:

"OK, gimme my glove. Jose', you move to second base. What, you thought I came here only to coach?" :D:

Classic!!!

SoxOnTop
01-20-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
At the beginning of last year Aaron Rowand blew. Willie Harris was called up to play CF for a while. But, he sucked too. So they tried Borchard, and then Rowand again. And then Everett. The point in all this is that they were desperate for a decent player and realized Harris wasn't one.

After being given a golden opportunity and failing, he's done little to earn this uncontested starting spot.

35 AB's in May and 55 AB's in June is hardly what I consider a consistant play, especially with the mad tinkerer at the helm. His production was comparable to Creede's first 2 months last year, excecpt Joe got 90 AB's in each month and was given whole year to work through it.

Becoming and MLB hitter is about rhythm, getting reps and tweaking your approach to major league competition. If you don't get cosistant AB's over a significant part of the season, then it is nearly impossible to make that adjustment. Not to mention that most of those AB's were from the lead-off spot which has more responsibilities than any other position in the order.

I'm not here to make excuses for Harris. I'm telling you we need to get him on the field consistantly to see what he's got to offer.

voodoochile
01-20-2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Rowand hit over .350 when being called back up from AAA in July. Harris will be fine. He needs the at bats- 150 isn't going to do it. He needs consistency, and having Guillen as his manager will help him.

Welcome Aboard! :D:

I hope you are right...

Gumshoe
01-20-2004, 11:26 PM
First off, Jeremy, I can't believe that "DJ guys coming out of the woodwork" comment. I was the most adamant backer of DJ, from the getgo, and I never liked getting rid of him. But here's the real issue:

KW has his guys and he has the guys that have grown to really dislike the Sox organization. Willie Harris is a prime example. He is HIGH as hell on KW's list. Foulke was the exact opposite. Fortunately, Carlos Lee is high on that list.

As for the Rowand thing, I've always been there, and mostly, I agree with SoxOnTop. I KNOW that AR is a really good defensive outfielder. I think he can be good enough with the stick not to piss us off, and he definitely came up in the clutch EVERY time last summer. Or weren't you naysayers watching?

I am skeptical of Harris, but he hasn't got a shot yet to judge him fully, like Rowand. Harris has MAJOR speed, and his D look like it could be OK over time. It's a no brainer to play Rowand.

In another stunnign prediction, look for Crede to begin his ascent to All Star levels this year. I LOVE that KID. Another Ventura in the making.

Gumshoe

depy48
01-20-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by SEALgep
It's similar to the Ron Artest situation with the Bulls. It wasn't necessarily his talent as to why they traded him, it was his attitude. Why do you thinkBoston wanted to trade Manny. Not cuz he sucks. Harris will develop into a good second baseman and hitter. He will be a true lead off hitter. Jimenez is a good hitter, but not a typical leadoff hitter. Harris fits Guillen's style of play much better.

well said

Dadawg_77
01-21-2004, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
It's similar to the Ron Artest situation with the Bulls. It wasn't necessarily his talent as to why they traded him, it was his attitude. Why do you thinkBoston wanted to trade Manny. Not cuz he sucks. Harris will develop into a good second baseman and hitter. He will be a true lead off hitter. Jimenez is a good hitter, but not a typical leadoff hitter. Harris fits Guillen's style of play much better.

And that is a good thing how? Is Harris going to get caught with the hidden ball trick three times this year? Speed is the most ouverated tool of them all, it doesn't matter if you can't get on base over a .375 clip.

boog_alou
01-21-2004, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by SEALgep
Harris will develop into a good second baseman and hitter. He will be a true lead off hitter. Jimenez is a good hitter, but not a typical leadoff hitter. Harris fits Guillen's style of play much better.
What makes you think Harris will develop into a good anything? True leadoff hitter? How so? SPEED is not what makes a good leadoff hitter. Getting on base is what that role is all about. Speed is a secondary concern at best. So far, Harris has shown that he can't draw a walk and he can't hit. Sounds more like a #9 hitter to me.

Jiminez on the other hand is developing into a good hitter (particularly for a middle infielder). He's good for the #1 spot, but maybe too good...more like a #2 hitter.

And, if "Guillen's style of play" is stolen bases, sacrifices, squeezes and small ball like that, then he doesn't realize how this team's personnel is NOT appropriate for that style of play and he will rob this team of runs that it would otherwise score.

progers0826
01-21-2004, 09:45 AM
I was among those who were high on Jimenez coming into 2003, in large part because of the point BP makes about his winter. He also had an absolutely monstrous Dominican winter in 2002-03 but then was unable to follow it up. That tells you something about the pitching between the winter leagues and the big leagues, as daver is right to point out. There are two guys I wish the Sox had in the second base mix right now -- Aaron Miles, who could put up big numbers in Colorado, and Tim Hummel, who should have gotten a chance at some point. Mark McLemore would look real good in a White Sox uniform this spring.

Over By There
01-21-2004, 10:14 AM
I never had a problem with DJ at the plate. IIRC, he had some really bad moments out there between 1st and 2nd.

Randar68
01-21-2004, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by progers0826
I was among those who were high on Jimenez coming into 2003, in large part because of the point BP makes about his winter. He also had an absolutely monstrous Dominican winter in 2002-03 but then was unable to follow it up. That tells you something about the pitching between the winter leagues and the big leagues, as daver is right to point out. There are two guys I wish the Sox had in the second base mix right now -- Aaron Miles, who could put up big numbers in Colorado, and Tim Hummel, who should have gotten a chance at some point. Mark McLemore would look real good in a White Sox uniform this spring.

Phil, have to agree about Hummel. Nice line-drive hitter with reliable (although not rangy) defense at 2nd base.

I've never seen a player as stupid in the field as Jimenez. Would wait back on everything and terrible fundamental skills in terms of making plays.

He's a good hitter, but by all account, a terrible teammate and by observation, an unreliable defensive player. One-dimensional.

bobj4400
01-21-2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Not sure that is a good idea, but hey, it's what we've got...

This might be a better statement:

Not sure that is a good idea, but hey, it's White Sox baseball...

CubKilla
01-21-2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
I've never seen a player as stupid in the field as Jimenez. Would wait back on everything and terrible fundamental skills in terms of making plays.

The top of the 1st, inning-ending, pop-up in Oakland on 05/06 w/bases loaded and 2 outs that Jimenez dropped and just gave up on while looking up to the sky after dropping it, allowing all 3 runs to score, summed up Jimenez's attitude as a defensive player for me.

As crap as this team is now up-the-middle, we don't need Jimenez's laziness to further hamper a definite Sox weakness.

Gumshoe
01-21-2004, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
The top of the 1st, inning-ending, pop-up in Oakland on 05/06 w/bases loaded and 2 outs that Jimenez dropped and just gave up on while looking up to the sky after dropping it, allowing all 3 runs to score, summed up Jimenez's attitude as a defensive player for me.

As crap as this team is now up-the-middle, we don't need Jimenez's laziness to further hamper a definite Sox weakness.


Another great example of a Sox fan just remembering the bad times. I saw Jimenez make errors, for certain, but I saw him make many good plays as well.

And if you guys don't realize this, you'll soon come to know it. Randar has the most unfounded defensive analysis of players that I have ever seen. He is just flat out WRONG every time so far in judging players defensively and he has nothing to back him up, subjective or objective. Stop doing it Randar, please, you are embarrassing yourself.

Gumshoe

voodoochile
01-21-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Another great example of a Sox fan just remembering the bad times. I saw Jimenez make errors, for certain, but I saw him make many good plays as well.

And if you guys don't realize this, you'll soon come to know it. Randar has the most unfounded defensive analysis of players that I have ever seen. He is just flat out WRONG every time so far in judging players defensively and he has nothing to back him up, subjective or objective. Stop doing it Randar, please, you are embarrassing yourself.

Gumshoe

At least Randar offers analysis. What do you offer? Platitudes?

Gumshoe says: Rowand is a good defender and anyone who can't see it is an idiot who embarasses themselves.

Other posters say: Rowand gets bad breaks, doesn't set his feet well, over throws, bounces off of walls, almost runs over other defenders and in general looks like a pinball in CF.

Gumshoe replys: You guys are embarassing yourselves. Rownad is a good defender.

Now which one actually contains analysis? Gumshoe, when Randar rips you a new one, I am not going to do anything to defend you. You started this fight, you can have it...

CubKilla
01-21-2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
Another great example of a Sox fan just remembering the bad times. I saw Jimenez make errors, for certain, but I saw him make many good plays as well.

If Jimenez made a good play, he'd see it through 100%. But if Jimenez made a bad play, he'd concede his gaffe, put his hands on his hips, maybe (Maggs actually backed up the play in OAK) get the ball back to the IF, then let the error effect his play for [I]at least[I] the rest of the inning. Never mind the fact that he had, at best, average range for a 2B. Then there was all of the talk about him being a nuisance in the ClubHouse..... offering criticism of mistakes to everyone from Crede to Thomas during April when he was the only Sox player to have a hot bat. But I just choose to remember all of the "bad" Jimenez aspects.

Randar68
01-21-2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Now which one actually contains analysis? Gumshoe, when Randar rips you a new one, I am not going to do anything to defend you. You started this fight, you can have it...

You can't argue with ignorance or close-mindedness, voodoo. I gave up on this arguement long ago. The only reason I even respond is to prevent the old, "truth in repetition" effect from taking place and having him poison the minds of others...

Rowand is one of the worst defensive CF'ers in the game. RF/LF, he's acceptable, but for a guy who's been an OF'er his whole life to have poor enough fundamentals to be out-played defensively by a recently converted 2B-man tells you more than any analysis can offer.

But hey, I'm embarassing myself... I guess I really need to bring back the old:




BLAH!

jeremyb1
01-21-2004, 12:47 PM
As I see it, there are problems with placing too much emphasis on evaluating a player's attitude. First of all, its certainly possible to make mistakes. Some players lack emotion and are therefore mislabeled as "lazy" instead of simply "laid back". Also, some players slump. Jimenez claims he simply had a tough time with the bat and everyone immediately attributed that to laziness when it may have been a slump and nothing else.

Furthermore, I don't see why it would matter at all if a player is lazy. Laziness is an input variable that affects the players performance meaning that if a player is lazy and performs well, his laziness is not a detriment to the team. You can argue about how it has a bad effect on the clubhouse but I'd much rather have a productive second basemen than a guy with a killer personality.

MisterB
01-21-2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
As I see it, there are problems with placing too much emphasis on evaluating a player's attitude. First of all, its certainly possible to make mistakes. Some players lack emotion and are therefore mislabeled as "lazy" instead of simply "laid back". Also, some players slump. Jimenez claims he simply had a tough time with the bat and everyone immediately attributed that to laziness when it may have been a slump and nothing else.

Furthermore, I don't see why it would matter at all if a player is lazy. Laziness is an input variable that affects the players performance meaning that if a player is lazy and performs well, his laziness is not a detriment to the team. You can argue about how it has a bad effect on the clubhouse but I'd much rather have a productive second basemen than a guy with a killer personality.

Jimenez obviouly doesn't get it. His bat was what was keeping in the lineup. His defense was shoddy, his baserunning was bad, and once his bat cooled he had nothing to contribute but a bad attitude. At the time he was traded, he didn't have the production or the personality.

beckett21
01-21-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1

Furthermore, I don't see why it would matter at all if a player is lazy. Laziness is an input variable that affects the players performance meaning that if a player is lazy and performs well, his laziness is not a detriment to the team. You can argue about how it has a bad effect on the clubhouse but I'd much rather have a productive second basemen than a guy with a killer personality. [/B]

Wrong. THis harkens back to the ManRam argument, where he was "sick," yet had time to hang out with his buddy on the Yankees. Laziness has an effect on EVERYTHING you do; can you be productive and lazy? Sure. But are you putting forth your best effort--could you be even better? OF COURSE. When you are on the field and in the lineup, everything you do affects everyone on the team. Not to mention the clubhouse issues, which you do acknowledge. Just because some people are blessed with certain gifts, that does not excuse them from working hard. They are making MILLIONS of dollars for crying out loud. I cannot defend laziness in any way shape or fashion. It is a team game, the sum of the parts, not all about one guy.

jeremyb1
01-21-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by beckett21
Wrong. THis harkens back to the ManRam argument, where he was "sick," yet had time to hang out with his buddy on the Yankees. Laziness has an effect on EVERYTHING you do; can you be productive and lazy? Sure. But are you putting forth your best effort--could you be even better? OF COURSE. When you are on the field and in the lineup, everything you do affects everyone on the team. Not to mention the clubhouse issues, which you do acknowledge. Just because some people are blessed with certain gifts, that does not excuse them from working hard. They are making MILLIONS of dollars for crying out loud. I cannot defend laziness in any way shape or fashion. It is a team game, the sum of the parts, not all about one guy.

The bottom line though is that your team will win more games with Barry Bonds who supposedly has a bad attitude than with Aaron Rowand who seemingly has a good one.

jeremyb1
01-21-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Jimenez obviouly doesn't get it. His bat was what was keeping in the lineup. His defense was shoddy, his baserunning was bad, and once his bat cooled he had nothing to contribute but a bad attitude. At the time he was traded, he didn't have the production or the personality.

Lots of players slump though. That doesn't eliminate the possibility of making valuable contributions in the future. Jimenez really only struggled for us in June so we're talking about one month here. Clearly one month doesn't speak towards a player's worth.

beckett21
01-21-2004, 01:58 PM
I thought we were talking about Jimenez here. Can Bonds play 2B? :smile:

bc2k
01-21-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe

KW has his guys and he has the guys that have grown to really dislike the Sox organization. Willie Harris is a prime example. He is HIGH as hell on KW's list. Foulke was the exact opposite. Fortunately, Carlos Lee is high on that list.

In another stunnign prediction, look for Crede to begin his ascent to All Star levels this year. I LOVE that KID. Another Ventura in the making.

Gumshoe

Same thing with Sean Lowe. KW demoted him to the minors because of off-field personal issues, not because of his on-field performances. In fact, I believe KW called Lowe the worst pitcher on the staff. Blatant lie or egregious misjudgment of talent.

Disagree on Crede, Gumshoe. Why was this boner so highly touted? He's weak and will never be an All-Star. Send him and his frail mind back to the Sticks.

voodoochile
01-21-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
The bottom line though is that your team will win more games with Barry Bonds who supposedly has a bad attitude than with Aaron Rowand who seemingly has a good one.

Well, that's taking it to an extreme. Will a team win more games with a Barry Bonds or a Manny Rameriz?

Barry is a workaholic who has always insisted on his teammates putting their best effort out there. Manny likes to drink in bars when he is too sick to play.

Extreme talent discrepencies change the dynamics of the equation. If talent is equal a hard worker who demands excellence from himself and his teammates will take a team further than a lazy player who only cares about themself.

For example: Michael Jordan for all of his talent was an over-achiever. He worked as hard as anyone in-season and out. He demanded perfection and his teams won championships.

Now compare that to guys like Cade McNown or other well known lazy busts. Yes, I know they play different sports...

voodoochile
01-21-2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
Same thing with Sean Lowe. KW demoted him to the minors because of off-field personal issues, not because of his on-field performances. In fact, I believe KW called Lowe the worst pitcher on the staff. Blatant lie or egregious misjudgment of talent.

Disagree on Crede, Gumshoe. Why was this boner so highly touted? He's weak and will never be an All-Star. Send him and his frail mind back to the Sticks.

Really? What has Lowe done since he left the Sox? I'm not saying that the Lowe situation was properly handled, but he hasn't done squat since he left the team. Looks like KW was right about him, IMO

hold2dibber
01-21-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well, that's taking it to an extreme. Will a team win more games with a Barry Bonds or a Manny Rameriz?

Barry is a workaholic who has always insisted on his teammates putting their best effort out there. Manny likes to drink in bars when he is too sick to play.

Extreme talent discrepencies change the dynamics of the equation. If talent is equal a hard worker who demands excellence from himself and his teammates will take a team further than a lazy player who only cares about themself.

For example: Michael Jordan for all of his talent was an over-achiever. He worked as hard as anyone in-season and out. He demanded perfection and his teams won championships.

Now compare that to guys like Cade McNown or other well known lazy busts. Yes, I know they play different sports...

Well, actually, the proper comparison is between Jimenez and Harris. I didn't like D'Ang's defense or his (from my perspective) lack of focus/energy on the diamond. But if Harris bombs as the Sox' 2B and lead off hitter this year (e.g., sub-.300 OBP) while Jimenez, as I expect, excels with the stick in Cinci (e.g., OBP of at least .360), who would you rather have? I didn't have a problem with bringing in Alomar and demoting Jimenez. But I still don't understand why the Sox dumped him for nothing. He's a great talent - I wouldn't give up on great talent so quickly. First I'd try like hell to straighten out his head. The mistake was compounded by the subsequent trading of Miles and Hummel, which essentially left the Sox with absolutely no 2B option other than Harris. If he bombs, KW will really look like an idiot, particularly if (as I suspect), Jimenez, Hummel and Miles all prosper.

voodoochile
01-21-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Well, actually, the proper comparison is between Jimenez and Harris. I didn't like D'Ang's defense or his (from my perspective) lack of focus/energy on the diamond. But if Harris bombs as the Sox' 2B and lead off hitter this year (e.g., sub-.300 OBP) while Jimenez, as I expect, excels with the stick in Cinci (e.g., OBP of at least .360), who would you rather have? I didn't have a problem with bringing in Alomar and demoting Jimenez. But I still don't understand why the Sox dumped him for nothing. He's a great talent - I wouldn't give up on great talent so quickly. First I'd try like hell to straighten out his head. The mistake was compounded by the subsequent trading of Miles and Hummel, which essentially left the Sox with absolutely no 2B option other than Harris. If he bombs, KW will really look like an idiot, particularly if (as I suspect), Jimenez, Hummel and Miles all prosper.

If Hummel and Miles become everyday Major Leaguers I will be shocked.

DJ might still get his head together, but when he got traded, it was addition by subtraction as far as the Sox were concerned. Yes, he has talent. Yes, he was a bad apple in the clubhouse and made a bunch of boneheaded plays. Will he turn it around? He might. He might not. Only time will tell.

hold2dibber
01-21-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If Hummel and Miles become everyday Major Leaguers I will be shocked.

I would be surprised if Hummel became an everyday major leaguer. I would not be surprised if he became Tony Graffinino-like. The only reason I think Miles has a decent chance at being okay is that he'll be playing half his games in Coors Field. In any event, I think those guys are at least as likely as Harris to succeed. I'm not sure why the Sox traded both of them (plus Jimenez) and kept only Harris - KW put all his eggs in that basket (or, perhaps, he put all his eggs in the "we'll resign Robbie to play 2B basket") so he'd better hope he kept the right guy.

DJ might still get his head together, but when he got traded, it was addition by subtraction as far as the Sox were concerned. Yes, he has talent. Yes, he was a bad apple in the clubhouse and made a bunch of boneheaded plays. Will he turn it around? He might. He might not. Only time will tell.

I agree entirely. But I think that keeping D'Ang in a back-up roll or demoting him back to Charlotte would have reduced/eliminated any bad influence he might have been having on the team without giving up on his unquestioned talent.

voodoochile
01-21-2004, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I would be surprised if Hummel became an everyday major leaguer. I would not be surprised if he became Tony Graffinino-like. The only reason I think Miles has a decent chance at being okay is that he'll be playing half his games in Coors Field. In any event, I think those guys are at least as likely as Harris to succeed. I'm not sure why the Sox traded both of them (plus Jimenez) and kept only Harris - KW put all his eggs in that basket (or, perhaps, he put all his eggs in the "we'll resign Robbie to play 2B basket") so he'd better hope he kept the right guy.

I agree entirely. But I think that keeping D'Ang in a back-up roll or demoting him back to Charlotte would have reduced/eliminated any bad influence he might have been having on the team without giving up on his unquestioned talent.

It may have had to do with PT in the minors. Too many people trying to find IF PT on the AAA squad. They had 4 guys who all were primarily 2B. Something had to give. KW made the move to go with the player he thought had the most upside and would benefit the most from the PT he received.

Jimenez had clearly worn out his welcome when he got dumped, so it really comes down to the other 3 guys. Hummel was starting to get older, so he wasn't as much of a prospect. Same for Miles.

Miles may succeed in the thin air of Denver, he might not. He might become so homer happy that he turns into a one-trick pony like Rowand offensively. In either case, the Sox don't play in Colorado, so he wouldn't have put up those numbers here. So, it becomes a moot point, IMO.

jeremyb1
01-21-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Well, that's taking it to an extreme. Will a team win more games with a Barry Bonds or a Manny Rameriz?

Barry is a workaholic who has always insisted on his teammates putting their best effort out there. Manny likes to drink in bars when he is too sick to play.

Extreme talent discrepencies change the dynamics of the equation. If talent is equal a hard worker who demands excellence from himself and his teammates will take a team further than a lazy player who only cares about themself.

For example: Michael Jordan for all of his talent was an over-achiever. He worked as hard as anyone in-season and out. He demanded perfection and his teams won championships.

Now compare that to guys like Cade McNown or other well known lazy busts. Yes, I know they play different sports...

Obviously if all else is equal you're going to want the player with the better attitude and a good attitude is also probably more conducive to improvement. However, players' abilities are rarely equal. Time will tell as far as Harris ability goes but Jimenez looks like much more of a sure thing to me.

beckett21
01-21-2004, 06:31 PM
Basically I agree with all of voodoo's points. Keeping Jimenez would have sent a bad message to the young players. The guy had a couple other chances to "get his head straight", and in SD they wanted his head on a platter. Not worth it--he ain't Bonds, he CAN be replaced--maybe not by what we have now, but it wouldn't be all that hard to get someone as good or better who actually has his head in the game. Good riddance.