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depy48
01-18-2004, 07:33 PM
I was impressed with the Daily Southtown's column on the Don Cooper and the opening in the rotation. Thr article, http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/181sd9.htm outlines the contenders for the final spot in the rotation. Robert Person, Felix Diaz, Jon Rauch, Neal Cotts, and Josh Stewart's names were all listed. But beyond the usual suspects, the Daily Southtown explores the idea of Jason Grilli. Apparently the sox picked him up on the rule 5 draft, and the Daily Southtown really speaks him up. The article reads that Grille has been hurt, but he claims that he is healthy this year. If this guy really is healthy, and has the skill and potential the article proclaims, he might be just the spark to help the sox rotation. But if it was up to me, I'd like to see Person in that final spot. Although I did buy into Rauch a couple of years ago, and there's always some hope that the bigger unit might the projected player as we once hoped. Anyways, i thought this was a pretty good article.

A. Cavatica
01-18-2004, 07:34 PM
The article is by Joe Cowley, staff writer...is that the same Joe Cowley who threw the ugly no-hitter?

Daver
01-18-2004, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
The article is by Joe Cowley, staff writer...is that the same Joe Cowley who threw the ugly no-hitter?

No, they are not related.

MRKARNO
01-18-2004, 09:33 PM
But it is the same Joe Cowley whom Carlos Delgado was mad at for completely leaving him off the MVP ballot in favor of Loaiza.

ChiWhiteSox1337
01-18-2004, 09:37 PM
What if all those pitchers that you listed pitch like #1 starters?

RKMeibalane
01-18-2004, 10:36 PM
Questions to Consider:

1. Has Josh Stewart recovered from the nerve injury to his hand?

2. How effective will Robert Person be in the American League?

3. Is Jon Rauch ever going to get an opportunity to win a starting stop?

4. How does Dan Wright fit into the picture?

mdep524
01-18-2004, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
4. How does Dan Wright fit into the picture?

He DOESN'T. Not as a starter anyway. No way. If he's in the rotation, we're in big(ger) trouble.

I don't expect too much out of either Person or Rauch. But it would be nice if Stewart could stay healthy.

Lip Man 1
01-18-2004, 11:28 PM
5th starter candidates:

Moe
Larry
Curly
Groucho
Harpo
Chico
Zeppo
Gummo

Hey they are the Sox kind of pitchers....they are willing to work cheap.

Lip

beckett21
01-19-2004, 12:26 AM
Grilli could be a diamond in the rough. He was highly touted a few years back for the Marlins. The guy I like here is Cotts; he got knocked around a bit last year, but I think he is a keeper. Wright should work out of the pen; Rauch and Stewart are still question-marks. In any case...

:prozac

...better start popping a bunch of these!

lowesox
01-19-2004, 01:00 AM
I think you might as well add Showenweiss' name to that list and make it a competition for two spots, because he's done nothing to earn the number 4 spot.

HITMEN OF 77
01-19-2004, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think you might as well add Showenweiss' name to that list and make it a competition for two spots, because he's done nothing to earn the number 4 spot.

Lowesox, Agree with you on that 100%!!

:blockhead

Scott's return is crucial to the success of this team and I wouldn't doubt he could be there #1 starter this year.

jeremyb1
01-19-2004, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
5th starter candidates:

Moe
Larry
Curly
Groucho
Harpo
Chico
Zeppo
Gummo

Hey they are the Sox kind of pitchers....they are willing to work cheap.

Lip

Moe (Former minor league player of the year)
Larry (One of the top minor league starters last season)
Curly (Former All-Star)

Frankly, I'm a lot more concerned about Schonenweis in the fourth spot. I'd guess that between Rauch, Cotts, and Diaz (I'm not too confident about Person's health) we have a pitcher that can perform as well as Schonenweis and his career ERA over 5 as a starter. But we don't need to worry about him since he's a veteran, right Lip?

ScottyTheSoxFan
01-19-2004, 02:21 PM
relax everyone, jon adkins will win atleast 15 games this year

Randar68
01-19-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
5th starter candidates:

Moe
Larry
Curly
Groucho
Harpo
Chico
Zeppo
Gummo

Hey they are the Sox kind of pitchers....they are willing to work cheap.

Lip

And you wonder why people generalize your posts as a large pile of dung...

Randar68
01-19-2004, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Questions to Consider:

1. Has Josh Stewart recovered from the nerve injury to his hand?

2. How effective will Robert Person be in the American League?

3. Is Jon Rauch ever going to get an opportunity to win a starting stop?

4. How does Dan Wright fit into the picture?

All good questions. Obviously, Rauch has the highest ceiling of anyone the Sox could use. Will he ever be healthy for more than a couple months? I don't know the answer, but the last 2 months of last season he was throwing very effectively again...

Cotts may still be a year away, we'll see. But, hey, it's not like we have a phobia against rushing pitchers.

If Schoenweis is going to be a starter again, we might as well give Wright the job back!

Person? Who knows, but I don't expect anything out of him that Wright wouldn't provide.

Foulke You
01-19-2004, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
All good questions. Obviously, Rauch has the highest ceiling of anyone the Sox could use. Will he ever be healthy for more than a couple months? I don't know the answer, but the last 2 months of last season he was throwing very effectively again...


Was Rauch's velocity back up? I heard after the surgery his fastball was down to 87-88mph (down from 92-93mph). I don't want anyone up there throwing 87mph "Parque Balls". :(:

Daver
01-19-2004, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Was Rauch's velocity back up? I heard after the surgery his fastball was down to 87-88mph (down from 92-93mph). I don't want anyone up there throwing 87mph "Parque Balls". :(:

Yeah,Greg Maddux is terrible with his 86 MPH fastball.......

fquaye149
01-19-2004, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Yeah,Greg Maddux is terrible with his 86 MPH fastball.......

it took greg maddux about 10 years for his 95 mph fastball to creep down to 86...

and discounting that...jon rauch is probably no greg maddux

Lip Man 1
01-19-2004, 08:10 PM
Jeremy asks:

But we don't need to worry about him since he's a veteran, right Lip?

You're right you don't have to worry, he'll be as good as Rauch, Cotts or any other "can't miss kid."

Who knows he might even put up as good of numbers as Rogers and Suppan did last year. You remember them don't you Jeremy? They are the guys you (and other) said were "no good, washed up etc..." Funny they didn't look so washed up to hitters did they? (and in Rogers case especially to Sox hitters! LOL)

Lip

Lip Man 1
01-19-2004, 08:12 PM
Randar says:

Obviously, Rauch has the highest ceiling of anyone the Sox could use.

He should he's 6-10!

Lip

beckett21
01-19-2004, 09:25 PM
:jaime

Hey did you guys forget about me? 'Cause I can still BRING IT!

voodoochile
01-19-2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think you might as well add Showenweiss' name to that list and make it a competition for two spots, because he's done nothing to earn the number 4 spot.

Actually, I was just wondering who is the #4 starter?

How can we discuss #5 when #4 is a complete crap shoot, IMO. Yeah, I know, Schoeneweiss is the #4 starter. At least that's what they tell us... :(:

jeremyb1
01-20-2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy asks:

But we don't need to worry about him since he's a veteran, right Lip?

You're right you don't have to worry, he'll be as good as Rauch, Cotts or any other "can't miss kid."

Who knows he might even put up as good of numbers as Rogers and Suppan did last year. You remember them don't you Jeremy? They are the guys you (and other) said were "no good, washed up etc..." Funny they didn't look so washed up to hitters did they? (and in Rogers case especially to Sox hitters! LOL)

Lip

Rick Helling too, right Lip? Also, do you remember who started the season as our fifth starter? It was Loaiza. My argument at the time was that signing a pitcher such as Suppan or Rogers would deny us flexibility in the rotation. Sure enough that flexibility alowed us to place a pitcher on a minor league contract on the rotation and that pitcher went on to win 21 games.

Furthermore Lip, to make an "I told you so" argument, your prediction has to come true for the reasons you stated. I disagree that Suppan pitched well last season simply because he's a veteran and Rauch struggled some because he's young (his recovery from surgery might've been an issue). You argued we should pack the rotation with pitchers like Rogers (4.57 ERA) at the expense of younger pitchers like Garland (4.51 ERA) and little more.

Would a rotation of Loaiza, Colon, Buehrle, Suppan, and Garland have been better than our rotation last season? Certainly. However, I disagree that a rotation of Colon, Buehrle, Suppan, Rogers, and Helling would've won us as many games as we did.

boog_alou
01-20-2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Actually, I was just wondering who is the #4 starter?

How can we discuss #5 when #4 is a complete crap shoot, IMO. Yeah, I know, Schoeneweiss is the #4 starter. At least that's what they tell us... :(:
Well, they decided to spend $1.75 million on Schoeneweis (which is a lot for the Sox), so it looks like intend for him to start. I guess if he's horrible in ST, and two other possible starters look great, he could get bumped to the BP, but I think that is unlikely. The BP has two lefties already and I think they have decided they want to start the season with him in the rotation (otherwise, why tender him an arbitration offer to begin with?).

rdivaldi
01-20-2004, 03:53 PM
It would be an absolute travesty if Jon Rauch was not handed the #5 spot in the rotation next year. The guy showed over the last couple of months in AAA that he can still pitch at a high level. Without a doubt he is the most talented of any of our young pitchers. While velocity is still of concern, he does have 3 other pitches he can throw for strikes.

Give the kid 20+ starts this year...

voodoochile
01-20-2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by rdivaldi
It would be an absolute travesty if Jon Rauch was not handed the #5 spot in the rotation next year. The guy showed over the last couple of months in AAA that he can still pitch at a high level. Without a doubt he is the most talented of any of our young pitchers. While velocity is still of concern, he does have 3 other pitches he can throw for strikes.

Give the kid 20+ starts this year...

Why would you hand it to him? I mean why not leave the competition open (nudge nudge wink wink) and hope he earns it. If the competition is close, they could use that as a tie breaker either way. If two of them light it up then Schoenweiss can always go to the pen like boog pointed out above.

HITMEN OF 77
01-20-2004, 03:57 PM
Do we still have Parque in the AAA club or has he been let go?

Lip Man 1
01-20-2004, 04:00 PM
Jeremy:

Nail me on Helling if you wish (although he did a kick ass job for the Marlins in the second half didn't he? While our 5th starters went right down the toilet)

but if you're going to do that make sure you give me (and some others) credit for Rogers and Suppan. if the Sox had Rogers instead of their cast of clowns at the back end of the rotation the Sox win the division in 2003. His ERA for the AL was not bad, certainly better then stiffs like Wright and Cotts. 14 wins is 14 wins.

Lip

rdivaldi
01-20-2004, 04:59 PM
I guess voodoo. I'm just a little frustrated that this guy has not been given the long look he deserves at the major league level. I also cringe at evaluating pitchers in that rotten dry air in Arizona.

Rauch depends on that curveball as an out pitch every once-in-awhile, and it's tough to get that big hook working in the desert. I wish we'd move back to Florida for ST...

jeremyb1
01-20-2004, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy:

Nail me on Helling if you wish (although he did a kick ass job for the Marlins in the second half didn't he? While our 5th starters went right down the toilet)

but if you're going to do that make sure you give me (and some others) credit for Rogers and Suppan. if the Sox had Rogers instead of their cast of clowns at the back end of the rotation the Sox win the division in 2003. His ERA for the AL was not bad, certainly better then stiffs like Wright and Cotts. 14 wins is 14 wins.

Lip

I'm willing to admit that I was wrong about Rogers. I expected an ERA significantly over 5 and he was above league average for a starter with an ERA in the mid-4s. However, I don't think that because it did end up that way, it means that it was a certainty.

Lip, your argument that Rauch would not pitch well last season was that he would struggle because he was a young pitcher and veterans are better than "can't miss kids". I still completely disagree with that reasoning regardless of what a very small sample size would suggest. Clearly, Helling was not outstanding last season while other young pitchers such as Prior, Zambrano, Sabathia, Garland, and Beckett performed quite well.

Rauch for one was apparently hampered by problems with his recovery from injury - a problem different from youth - early in the season and pitched well down the stretch in AAA. Furthermore he was never even given a chance in the majors. Maybe he could've posted an ERA in the high 4s pitching in a bigger ballpark with a better coaching staff.

Huisj
01-20-2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by ScottyTheSoxFan
relax everyone, jon adkins will win atleast 15 games this year

and if he doesn't win those, at least maybe he'll help the whole team diet well and lose weight.

:ozzie:
"all right guys, lets lose it, lotsa meat, no more bread"

:bcolon
"whew, glad i'm outta there



oh wait, it's atkins, not adkins. my bad

Huisj
01-20-2004, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Questions to Consider:


2. How effective will Robert Person be in the American League?



how effective would he be in the national league? or in any league? in AAA?

is his arm still able to move after his 37 surgeries in the last year and a half?

Lip Man 1
01-20-2004, 10:36 PM
Jeremy:

Jon Rauch was considered one of the top pitching prospects in baseball...

In 2000

Let's see it's now 2004 right?

at the rate he's going he might make an impact in 2008 (but by then he wouldn't be a 'can't miss kid' anymore! LOL)

It's the same argument you give for Jon Garland. You're willing to wait forever it seems for these kids to produce...I'm not. Enough is enough with these 'kids,' s@#$ or get off the pot.

By the way the latest WSI interview I did today is with an individual who said Koch and Garland are the keys to the 2004 season. He said up to this time Garland has been a 'disappointment.'

Lip

hold2dibber
01-21-2004, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by rdivaldi
It would be an absolute travesty if Jon Rauch was not handed the #5 spot in the rotation next year. The guy showed over the last couple of months in AAA that he can still pitch at a high level. Without a doubt he is the most talented of any of our young pitchers. While velocity is still of concern, he does have 3 other pitches he can throw for strikes.

Give the kid 20+ starts this year...

I would whole-heartedly agree with you if the Sox' rotation wasn't so thin overall. If they had one more legitimate, above-average major league starter in the rotation and I was running the show, the no. 5 spot would be Rauch's to lose. But with Schoenweiss (who probably shouldn't even be in the rotation) in the no. 4 spot and Garland (who has, to date, not been nearly good enough to be a no. 3 starter for a playoff team) in the no. 3 spot, the no. 5 slot should be up for grabs, may the best man win.

jeremyb1
01-21-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy:

Jon Rauch was considered one of the top pitching prospects in baseball...

In 2000

Let's see it's now 2004 right?

at the rate he's going he might make an impact in 2008 (but by then he wouldn't be a 'can't miss kid' anymore! LOL)

It's the same argument you give for Jon Garland. You're willing to wait forever it seems for these kids to produce...I'm not. Enough is enough with these 'kids,' s@#$ or get off the pot.

By the way the latest WSI interview I did today is with an individual who said Koch and Garland are the keys to the 2004 season. He said up to this time Garland has been a 'disappointment.'

Hahahaha. Sometimes I really have to question if you actually read my posts at all, Lip. More or less the entire point of my last two posts was that Rauch did not struggle because he's young and inexperienced. He's struggled because of a serious arm injury. You're proving my point by continuing to act as though the only obstacle to his success has been immaturity. The reason Rauch was a top prospect in 2001 (NOT 2000) is that he missed an entire season with his injury and then as is typical in the case of serious injury he needed at least a year to regain effectiveness. So if you ask me, if he's struggled with his pitching and not his health at any point it was last season at which time he still pitched well in AAA and was never even given a chance to pitch in the majors!!!

As far as Garland goes, he outpitched your savior Kenny Rogers last season!! Which is it? Rogers is a dissapointment and wouldn't have helped or Garland is a dissapointment? If Garland is a dissapointment at all perhaps it is in the sense that many had incredibly high expectations for him which he has not yet met but considering that he is a 23 year old with above average stats for a starter and flashes brilliance at time, he's a good pitcher. Think about it. Rogers is a crafty brilliant veteran and Garland is a raw young pitcher that came up at 20. Imagine how good Garland will be when he's a veteran.

Lip Man 1
01-21-2004, 02:48 PM
Jeremy;

Rauch was the stud at the Olympic games in 2000 not 2001 and wasn't he the minor league pitcher of the year that season? How much better can you get? He's coming off two, some say three surgeries (he's another Barcelo...) but you still say 'give him a chance...' Well you may get your chance since the Sox aren't getting anybody else.

As far as your last post Garland may be a good pitcher someday but of course it won't be with the Sox, they don't resign their pitchers remember (something you agree with). He and Buehrle can be free agents in three years, the clock's ticking.

It would have been much better for the Sox to have had BOTH Garland's wins and Rogers' wins but you know they just couldn't afford that extra million bucks the Twins gave him (cough, cough, nudge, nudge...)

Lip

quade36
01-21-2004, 02:53 PM
I have heard a lot of good things about Diaz. Rauch, man he can't throw a fastball. His fasted pitch is in the low 90s. Unless he has all of the sudden got a lot of control, I don't see him in the Sox future.

I am still waiting for Kris Honel to get through the system

Foulke You
01-21-2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Yeah,Greg Maddux is terrible with his 86 MPH fastball.......

Yeah, and Jon Rauch throws just like Greg Maddux!!

You have to have poise, control, and smarts to be able to get away with throwing in the mid 80s for a fastball in the big leagues these days. I for one am not confident that Rauch has those three qualities, hence my concern for his Parque-ish velocity.

jeremyb1
01-21-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Jeremy;

Rauch was the stud at the Olympic games in 2000 not 2001 and wasn't he the minor league pitcher of the year that season? How much better can you get? He's coming off two, some say three surgeries (he's another Barcelo...) but you still say 'give him a chance...' Well you may get your chance since the Sox aren't getting anybody else.

As far as your last post Garland may be a good pitcher someday but of course it won't be with the Sox, they don't resign their pitchers remember (something you agree with). He and Buehrle can be free agents in three years, the clock's ticking.

It would have been much better for the Sox to have had BOTH Garland's wins and Rogers' wins but you know they just couldn't afford that extra million bucks the Twins gave him (cough, cough, nudge, nudge...)

Lip

You're right that it was '00. I had a brain fart there.

Unbelievably this post is the first time I've ever seen you comment on Rauch's injury problems. I maintain that your arguments against giving him a chance have been based on his youth and not his health up until this point.

As far as Rauch's health goes, I have not heard any credible reports that he had more than one surgery. While his surgery was serious he looked quite healthy at the end of '02 hence the argument he should be given a chance.

With Garland, I would first argue that he is currently a good pitcher. He's not a lot better than average but a dependable, solid starter can be a valuable commodity. The fact of the matter is that he was a more effective pitcher than Rogers last season. IIRC, you wanted to demote Garland from the rotation to add the likes of Helling, Suppan, and Rogers.

In terms of Garland's future with the club, there's a good chance that if he does become a much better pitcher it will be with our organization because we have him on the club for at least three more seasons.

vettemaster
01-21-2004, 04:58 PM
Rauch is finally healthy! He was hitting 92-93 in the late innings at the end of 2003 at AAA ball. He only lost one game for the whole year and started 24-26 games. When the Sox did call him up in 2002 he was hitting 94 several times during the last game against the Minn. Twins and only gave up 1 run in 7 innings. In the month of August, 2003 he won four games and his era was right at 2.00...who knows what would have happen if they would of called him up in Sept? This monster man will suprise a lot of you that have for some reason written him off!!
Rauch at 6'11" tall and 265-270 lbs will be a factor in the Whitesox season in 2004!
Let me ask you all this: Who will be the first one in the majors to charge the mound against this Kid?? What do you think the result will be...
GO JON RAUCH
GO WHITE SOX

A. Cavatica
01-21-2004, 07:03 PM
Rauch is my first choice too. I can't see Schoeneweis pitching well enough to hold a spot.

A dark horse nobody has mentioned: Tetsu Yofu. I never gave him any chance of making it to Chicago, but with the signing of "Mr. Zero" it seems management will in fact consider a Japanese player.

rdivaldi
01-21-2004, 08:31 PM
Rauch works in the 91-94 range with his fastball. I don't know where some of you are getting this 85 mph stuff. When he was hurt, yeah he lost it, but he's back to where he was in 2000.

Without a doubt he is the prospect most ready to take over the spot. He also is the most talented.