PDA

View Full Version : Alternative #1: trade Lee?


A. Cavatica
01-15-2004, 10:26 PM
Since it looks like we're handcuffed to PK and Koch, and we still have to clear salary, I suppose KW is revisiting the idea of trading Caballo. Earlier this winter I read that he had lots of offers. It is possible that Caballo just had his career year, so selling high could be the best move we could make. Of course, it is also possible that he's going to become a 40/120 player.

Trading Lee would free up salary and bring at least a good starter in return. It would open a spot for Reed (or Borchard). It could help with lefty/right balance and slugger/on-base-guy balance. It could mean we could hang on to Maggs in the hope of re-signing him.

Has anyone heard a credible rumor about Lee? I wonder if the Angels would give us Washburn for him, or if the Dodgers would give us Perez and Miller.

ChiWhiteSox1337
01-15-2004, 10:30 PM
The angels have a backload in OF: Guillen, Erstad, G. Anderson and vlad. The Dodgers on the otherhand could probably use a bat like Lee. Wouldn't mind seeing him go after the Sox gave him $15 mil for 2 years but it'd suck if he turns into a 40/120 type player that you described

kittle42
01-15-2004, 10:36 PM
Trading Carlos Lee is a worse idea than trading Magglio Ordonez.

Brian26
01-15-2004, 10:45 PM
Trading Caballo at this point would be like trading Bobby Bonilla before he reached his prime.

:hawk

"Your WHAT hurts?"

A. Cavatica
01-15-2004, 10:47 PM
He's got a much longer track record than Bonilla, and he would bring a lot more in return, so I reject that comparison. I don't think you can say that trading Lee is automatically a terrible idea...wouldn't it depend on what we could get in return?

mdep524
01-15-2004, 11:02 PM
I'm glad somebody mentioned this idea again. I am all for trading Lee right now- he's coming off a carer year, teams were, at least allegedly, beating down the door for him, and we could get a heck of a lot in return for him. Lee is a good player, but I don't think he'll ever be "great." My opinion is he is completely replaceable, and the best time to trade him is right now while his value is the highest it will ever be.

KW has to learn how to use his assets more wisely. That does not mean just trade every single player he has when they get good, but it does mean stop the trend of always buying high and selling low (see Koch, Konerko, et. al.).

ssang
01-16-2004, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by mdep524
I'm glad somebody mentioned this idea again. I am all for trading Lee right now- he's coming off a carer year, teams were, at least allegedly, beating down the door for him, and we could get a heck of a lot in return for him. Lee is a good player, but I don't think he'll ever be "great." My opinion is he is completely replaceable, and the best time to trade him is right now while his value is the highest it will ever be.

KW has to learn how to use his assets more wisely. That does not mean just trade every single player he has when they get good, but it does mean stop the trend of always buying high and selling low (see Koch, Konerko, et. al.).


I agree 100%. A smart organization would realize this about Lee. Trade him while his stock is at its peak. He is a replaceable player whom, IMO, has reached the ceiling on his potential. Lee could EASILY go back to his seeimngly ANNUAL slump and end up at .278 with 22 HRS. Also keep in mind that Carlos is average (at best) in the OF and his baserunning is abysmal. If Lee hits one of his slumps this season (good chance), I can picture a lot of you complaining that Kenny should have traded Carlos when his stock was highest.

I truly feel that trading Carlos Lee now is THE way to go here. He is expendable on this roster. Think about it for a second and you will agree.....

The problem is that I could NEVER picture our White Sox figuring out something like this. And that is the main difference between the White Sox organization and the consistent winning teams in baseball. Well that and the ridiculous self-imposed $58 million dollar payroll by JR. :angry:

SluggersAway
01-16-2004, 12:22 AM
if it was either Lee or Magglio that had to go...I'd ship Lee...but his value may be even greater next off season.

JRIG
01-16-2004, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by SluggersAway
if it was either Lee or Magglio that had to go...I'd ship Lee...but his value may be even greater next off season.

No he won't. Next season his salary inflates to an incredible $8.5 million. Lee's value will never ever ever ever be as high as it is right now.

lowesox
01-16-2004, 01:31 AM
The only problem I have with trading Lee is that we should have done it sooner. Now, most teams have addressed their needs so there are less teams to bid on him.

He's a guy the sox could expect a good player in return for, without having to take on a lot of salary. I think Lee and ROwand to LA for Roberts and one of the super prospect pitchers would be a nice deal.

gosox41
01-16-2004, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
He's got a much longer track record than Bonilla, and he would bring a lot more in return, so I reject that comparison. I don't think you can say that trading Lee is automatically a terrible idea...wouldn't it depend on what we could get in return?

I agree. For the right trade, I'd move Lee. Didn't his numbers start improving when he started hitting second?

It's a perfect example of selling high, something the Sox don't do often.

Bob

SoxOnTop
01-16-2004, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by JRIG
No he won't. Next season his salary inflates to an incredible $8.5 million. Lee's value will never ever ever ever be as high as it is right now.

I agree. The guy has been up and down his entire career. You need to take advantage when he has a year like he did in '03. Pluse corner outfield is the one position where we have plenty of prospects. With Lee and Maggs stuck out there we will never find out what we have. Why not move Lee for an impact player and give Reed/Rowand/LTP a shot?

Why do you think the Twins moved AJ Pierksjdlfkjdsski? Becuase he was peaking in value and they have the prospects to replace him. We should be taking this attitude.

Tragg
01-16-2004, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica


Has anyone heard a credible rumor about Lee? I wonder if the Angels would give us Washburn for him, or if the Dodgers would give us Perez and Miller.

We could get a washburn for lee in a heartbeat, and KW should be run out of town if he even thinks about such a thing. Pitchers play in 1/5 of the games- hitters in 90%+.

Who will drive in runs for us next year? No Lee, no Maggs.

$15 mill over 2 years is a manageable salary- 1-mill+ (extending nomar) is not.

Valentin soaking up $5 mill per year is a much bigger problem than Lee.

Hangar18
01-16-2004, 10:41 AM
The SOX would be stupid enough to trade Carlos Lee also ....

CubKilla
01-16-2004, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
Trading Caballo at this point would be like trading Bobby Bonilla before he reached his prime.

Or ShamME Soso.

ssang
01-16-2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
The SOX would be stupid enough to trade Carlos Lee also ....


Can we at least have a reason this would be a stupid trade? I actually beleive the opposite....The SOX would be dumb enough NOT to trade him.

TheRockinMT
01-16-2004, 12:42 PM
Trading away our star players for potential major league players is the mark of a second tier organization. We get to the point where the roster is competitive and has star quality players and then, because it is costing money to the owner, we trade them and start over. Another team reaps the benefit of the talent the Sox developed and the Sox fans are left with another rebuilding phase. We need to look at keeping our best players and rebuilding our farm system from within and combine that with a genuine desire of our ownership to put a winning and competitive club on the field.

Iwritecode
01-16-2004, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
combine that with a genuine desire of our ownership to put a winning and competitive club on the field.

I think this needs to be in deep pink...

LATruBlue
01-16-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Has anyone heard a credible rumor about Lee? I wonder if the Angels would give us Washburn for him, or if the Dodgers would give us Perez and Miller.

Allow me to chime in if you don't mind. There was much talk about the Dodgers acquiring Lee on the Dodger board. I think the general consensus was that we would gladly trade Odalis Perez for Lee and iron out any salary differences. Not that you guys would want Perez.

As far as the continued talk about trading for one of the stud pitchers, Miller or Jackson, it just ain't going to happen folks. There was an article in the LA times today that said that the Dodger Chairman, Bob Daly was very adamant about not trading the young prospects, period. And that Dan Evans concurred with him. So any talk about acquiring them through a trade is just a pipe dream.

JRIG
01-16-2004, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
Trading away our star players for potential major league players is the mark of a second tier organization. We get to the point where the roster is competitive and has star quality players and then, because it is costing money to the owner, we trade them and start over. Another team reaps the benefit of the talent the Sox developed and the Sox fans are left with another rebuilding phase.

Yeah, just like the Oakland A's! When will they ever recover from trading their star players or letting them walk away?

Lip Man 1
01-16-2004, 12:50 PM
I'm not saying this would be a good deal or a bad one however remember what Branch Rickey said:

It's better to trade a player a year to early then a year to late.

Lip

hold2dibber
01-16-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
Trading away our star players for potential major league players is the mark of a second tier organization. We get to the point where the roster is competitive and has star quality players and then, because it is costing money to the owner, we trade them and start over. Another team reaps the benefit of the talent the Sox developed and the Sox fans are left with another rebuilding phase. We need to look at keeping our best players and rebuilding our farm system from within and combine that with a genuine desire of our ownership to put a winning and competitive club on the field.

But the question is who are your star players? After the '02 season, a lot of Sox fans were quite fond of Paul Konerko and there probably would have been quite an uproar had he been traded. Of course, as it turns out, he was at peak value at that point and probably could have brought the Sox a good center fielder or a solid starting pitcher at the very least. So the question becomes whether you think Carlos Lee has already seen his best days or do you think Carlos Lee just scratched the surface next year. Personally, I have no idea. But I will say that if dealing Lee would allow the Sox to re-sign Maggs, I'd do it. But I would want serious value in return. Odalis Perez wouldn't do it for me (though Perez and Mota probably would). I'd want someone who is a solid, proven, "young veteran" starting pitcher (sort of like Russ Ortiz or Tim Wakefield) or a young gun with some serious upside (kind of like Brett Myers or close to it).

TaylorStSox
01-16-2004, 02:02 PM
Personally, I wouldn't trade the only guy that plays like he gives a damn about wearing a White Sox uniform. LOL @ the idea that he's "peaked" 5 years into the league.

kittle42
01-16-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Personally, I wouldn't trade the only guy that plays like he gives a damn about wearing a White Sox uniform. LOL @ the idea that he's "peaked" 5 years into the league.

Jerome Walton peaked at one year into the league.

jabrch
01-16-2004, 02:16 PM
I wouldn't reject the idea of trading him any more than I would reject the idea of trading Maggs or even Frank. You'd have to give me a heck of a lot more than Washburn for him - and you might have to take on some salary also. Now if you tell me you will give me Washburn, FRod and an MLB ready middle-IF prospect, then we might have room for a discussion.

Hangar18
01-16-2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by ssang
Can we at least have a reason this would be a stupid trade? I actually beleive the opposite....The SOX would be dumb enough NOT to trade him.

Because the guy hasnt even begun to Reach His Star Potential.
Hes going to get there, and Unfortuneately, it will be with another team. The ROCK in MT has an EXCELLENT
EXCELLENT response to this also ........

Hangar18
01-16-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
Trading away our star players for potential major league players is the mark of a second tier organization. We get to the point where the roster is competitive and has star quality players and then, because it is costing money to the owner, we trade them and start over. Another team reaps the benefit of the talent the Sox developed and the Sox fans are left with another rebuilding phase. We need to look at keeping our best players and rebuilding our farm system from within and combine that with a genuine desire of our ownership to put a winning and competitive club on the field.

Can I nominate this POST for Inclusion into the
WSI Post Hall-of-Fame ?

hold2dibber
01-16-2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Personally, I wouldn't trade the only guy that plays like he gives a damn about wearing a White Sox uniform. LOL @ the idea that he's "peaked" 5 years into the league.

I don't understand or agree wiht your comment about him being the only guy who plays like he gives a damn. I am a Carlos fan, but he has made tons of bone headed base running blunders over the years and has always struck me as a guy who didn't get the most out of his talent.

And with respect to "the idea that he's peaked 5 years into the league" - I don't get the joke. Konerko apparently already peaked. Jermaine Dye appears to have peaked about 5 years into the league. Billy Koch may have peaked about 5 years into his career. A player can have a career year at any time. Do you just automatically assume that any player under 30 is going to get better and better each year? That would be laughable.

JRIG
01-16-2004, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Personally, I wouldn't trade the only guy that plays like he gives a damn about wearing a White Sox uniform. LOL @ the idea that he's "peaked" 5 years into the league.

Lee in 2000: .301/.345/.484, 38 BB, 94 K, 13 SB, 4 CS

Lee in 2003: .291/.331/.499, 37 BB, 91 K, 17 SB, 4 CS

No growth, no improvement, no nothing. And people say last year was some kind of a "breakout" season. This is his peak. Lee will not be any better unless he starts taking pitches like he did in the 2nd half of 2002. In case you forget, that's when he hit .283/.407/.521.

ssang
01-16-2004, 03:27 PM
Exactly. Trade Carlos Lee. I think the sun is gonna burn out before the Sox become a consistent challenger for a world series title TRADE LEE!!!!!!!!!!!

jeremyb1
01-16-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Lee in 2000: .301/.345/.484, 38 BB, 94 K, 13 SB, 4 CS

Lee in 2003: .291/.331/.499, 37 BB, 91 K, 17 SB, 4 CS

No growth, no improvement, no nothing. And people say last year was some kind of a "breakout" season. This is his peak. Lee will not be any better unless he starts taking pitches like he did in the 2nd half of 2002. In case you forget, that's when he hit .283/.407/.521.

Here's one that's even better:

Carlos Lee in 2002: .264/.359/.484, 75 BB, 73 KK, 1 SB, 4 CS
Lee in 2003: .291/.331/.499, 37 BB, 91 K, 17 SB, 4 CS

So...despite the fact that last season was Lee's "breakout season" that hints at unimaginable potential, he was actually better the season before!!! We better hold onto this one.

Foulke You
01-16-2004, 03:32 PM
I would trade Lee only if it could provide the salary relief necessary to complete the Nomar/Damon/Williamson deal.

hold2dibber
01-16-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I would trade Lee only if it could provide the salary relief necessary to complete the Nomar/Damon/Williamson deal.

What if you could deal him for a no. 3 or no. 4 starter with a few years left before free agency and free up enough money to keep and re-sign Magglio? Or for a center fielder with a good OBP and some speed? That's what I'd try to do, if I were KW. Easier said than done, though.

misty60481
01-16-2004, 10:14 PM
I agree trade Lee while he is going strong and keep Mags I think Lee will bring more in trade now but Mags is much better in long term...Maybe when he sees what market is bringing for FAs he might not be that expensive for 05. I think he is player to build around

Brian26
01-16-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by misty60481
I agree trade Lee while he is going strong and keep Mags I think Lee will bring more in trade now but Mags is much better in long term...Maybe when he sees what market is bringing for FAs he might not be that expensive for 05. I think he is player to build around

Hey Misty, Welcome to the board. I just read your profile, and I was surprised to see that you've been with this team for a heck of a long time. 66 yrs old and a Sox fan since 1945? Mercy. And I complain because they haven't won during my lifetime...you've suffered a really long time.

ScottyTheSoxFan
01-16-2004, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I'd want someone who is a solid, proven, "young veteran" starting pitcher (sort of like Russ Ortiz or Tim Wakefield)

tim wakefield is 37. not too young

A. Cavatica
01-16-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
LOL @ the idea that he's "peaked" 5 years into the league.

Apparently you never read Bill James. Age is the single best predictor of future performance, and the average player peaks at 27.

voodoochile
01-16-2004, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Apparently you never read Bill James. Age is the single best predictor of future performance, and the average player peaks at 27.

LOL! That does not mean EVERY player peaks at 27. Nor does it mean that a player won't have several "peak years" between 27 and 32.

hold2dibber
01-16-2004, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
LOL! That does not mean EVERY player peaks at 27. Nor does it mean that a player won't have several "peak years" between 27 and 32.

I don't think anyone was suggesting anything to the contrary. But the suggestion by TaylorSt that it was laughable that Lee could have possibly peaked "only five years into his career" is nuts.

voodoochile
01-16-2004, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't think anyone was suggesting anything to the contrary. But the suggestion by TaylorSt that it was laughable that Lee could have possibly peaked "only five years into his career" is nuts.

Okay, that is true, but even if he only puts up 95% of last years numbers for the next 4 years, I don't think anyone is going to be crying.

A. Cavatica
01-17-2004, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
We could get a washburn for lee in a heartbeat, and KW should be run out of town if he even thinks about such a thing. Pitchers play in 1/5 of the games- hitters in 90%+.

This is just so dumb that I had to start another thread about it!
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28417

Let's pick some pitchers who are about as good at pitching as Lee is at hitting. Washburn's not far off; remember his monster year in 2002. C. C. Sabathia's another reasonable pick.

Would you trade Lee for Washburn straight up? How about Sabathia? I would make either deal.

RichH55
01-17-2004, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, that is true, but even if he only puts up 95% of last years numbers for the next 4 years, I don't think anyone is going to be crying.

True ...but only if he puts up the numbers he was putting up while hitting 2nd in front of Frank

mdep524
01-17-2004, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Would you trade Lee for Washburn straight up? How about Sabathia? I would make either deal.

I would not trade Lee for Washburn straight up, but only because I believe Lee's market value is higher than that, not because of pure talent assessment.

misty60481
01-17-2004, 09:51 AM
talk about suffering SOX fan I remember when the whole team hit 23 homers for whole year---Misty is my dog

jabrch
01-17-2004, 11:39 AM
Washburn or Sabathia? No thanks.

How about Lee to the Dodgers for Perez and Miller or Jackson? I doubt the Dodgers would do that.

I'd trade Lee, but you would haveto give me a quality starter today and a prospect (either SP or MI) for the near future.

TheRockinMT
01-17-2004, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
But the question is who are your star players? After the '02 season, a lot of Sox fans were quite fond of Paul Konerko and there probably would have been quite an uproar had he been traded. Of course, as it turns out, he was at peak value at that point and probably could have brought the Sox a good center fielder or a solid starting pitcher at the very least. So the question becomes whether you think Carlos Lee has already seen his best days or do you think Carlos Lee just scratched the surface next year. Personally, I have no idea. But I will say that if dealing Lee would allow the Sox to re-sign Maggs, I'd do it. But I would want serious value in return. Odalis Perez wouldn't do it for me (though Perez and Mota probably would). I'd want someone who is a solid, proven, "young veteran" starting pitcher (sort of like Russ Ortiz or Tim Wakefield) or a young gun with some serious upside (kind of like Brett Myers or close to it).


Your POST is thought provoking. I appreciate this kind of conversation and analysis versus someone simply basically "flipping" you off in print.

I agree with your concept. If we trade value we get value in return and, if at all possible more value. I do think Carlos Lee can still improve. Will he be a consistent .300 hitter with 35 HR and 110 RBI's a year? I think he has the talent and the drive. And I still like Paul Konerko too. One off year is not a reason for us to abandon him. He was moving up every year till '03. My hope is that he can regain his form. Trade Lee for the possibility of re-signing Maggs? Wow! Now that's a situation where we really need to be careful about what we get in return, or expect to get. Terrible when you have to think about trading one star to keep a bigger star. Best case would be to keep em both, but I think the Sox bank has been closed and will remain so.

Daver
01-17-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Apparently you never read Bill James. Age is the single best predictor of future performance, and the average player peaks at 27.

Somebody must have forgotten to tell Roger Clemens that.

CWSGuy406
01-17-2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Somebody must have forgotten to tell Roger Clemens that.

Exactly, a pitcher.

Does anyone have a stat compared to the performance of hitters after age 27 with the performance of pitchers after age 27?

JRIG
01-17-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Somebody must have forgotten to tell Roger Clemens that.

Actually, Roger Clemens peak season probably was at age 27.

21-6, 1.93 ERA, and ERA+ of 211, 54 BB, 209 K in 228 IP and 193 hits allowed. 2nd place in Cy Young voting, 3rd in MVP. Those numbers would be even ,ore impressive if he hadn't missed a couple of starts.