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otis
01-15-2004, 12:44 PM
..............Dead.

Talks resumed this morning, but didn't last long. Both teams agreed that there wasn't a match at this time. This is what I know happened. The teams were in agreement on swapping Nomar/ Williamson for Ordonez. This is not news to anyone as it was the trade a month ago. Boston really thinks that they need to trade Nomar and are salivating over the prospect of Ordonez in Fenway. The problem is that Boston doesn't have an option at Shortstop. They were OK on the idea of Valentin as a replacement. The question then became what do you trade Jose for. Understand that Boston was not going to add an additional 5 million without the White Sox taking equal money back. Boston declined on trading Nixon which was a natural money fit. Chicago wanted Damon and could have had him with an additional mid level prospect, but they were unwilling to take him without moving Konerko or Koch's salary. Understand that it wasn't just trading them for someone else. They looked into moving their contracts for fringe prospects to no avail to eliminate money off the books. So unless PK or BK get moved or Boston can acquire another shortstop, the trade is not going to happen. What a disappointing off season!

Palehose13
01-15-2004, 12:51 PM
Thanks for the update Otis. I WISH we could move Konerko or Botch so that this could happen. :(

cornball
01-15-2004, 12:52 PM
Thanks for the update Otis. Could it be re-opened if the Sox can get rid of salary or it it totally dead.

otis
01-15-2004, 01:02 PM
From what I am told, a Nomar/Willimamson/Damon for Magglio/Valentin/prospect/4th player* would be done by Boston. It is the White Sox that will not take on Damon's salary without clearing money. If they do clear money, the trade has a good chance to happen. The fact the White Sox have spent all off season unable to clear money, does not give the Boston folks hope it will happen. Boston may revisit trading Nomar to Anaheim.

*The 4th player would be a low salary major league player. My guess would be Rowand or Wright.

Iwritecode
01-15-2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by otis
From what I am told, a Nomar/Willimamson/Damon for Magglio/Valentin/prospect/4th player* would be done by Boston. It is the White Sox that will not take on Damon's salary without clearing money. If they do clear money, the trade has a good chance to happen. The fact the White Sox have spent all off season unable to clear money, does not give the Boston folks hope it will happen. Boston may revisit trading Nomar to Anaheim.

*The 4th player would be a low salary major league player. My guess would be Rowand or Wright.

What is Damon's contract status?

This is why I hate, ABSOLUTELY HATE, this stupid self-imposed budget that the Sox have set. It makes a blockbuster trade like this impossible.

What happened to the JR quote about increasing the payroll for an impact player? What, Nomar and Damon aren't impact players?!?

:selljerry

SOON!!!

DirtySouthsider
01-15-2004, 01:13 PM
It so frustrating because that would be a very good trade for the Sox but the only thing holding it back is JR and his self-imposed salary cap!!!!!

clarkent
01-15-2004, 01:18 PM
i have a feeling that this will get done after the Sox trade Konerko to LA for Perez only.

hold2dibber
01-15-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by otis
From what I am told, a Nomar/Willimamson/Damon for Magglio/Valentin/prospect/4th player* would be done by Boston. It is the White Sox that will not take on Damon's salary without clearing money. If they do clear money, the trade has a good chance to happen. The fact the White Sox have spent all off season unable to clear money, does not give the Boston folks hope it will happen. Boston may revisit trading Nomar to Anaheim.

*The 4th player would be a low salary major league player. My guess would be Rowand or Wright.

For the love of all that is good and just in the world, why the hell can't we have an owner who will loosen the purse strings a little under the circumstances? (The circumstances being a trade that would fill several important holes on the team provide some excitement and optimism for the upcoming season and give the Sox a fighting chance to win the division and not get completely entirely overshadowed by the Flubs.) If the Sox were to do this trade, they'd have a payroll of about $65 million (I think). The line-up would probably be:

Damon CF
Reed/Rowand RF
Garciaparra SS
Thomas 1B
Lee LF
Crede 3B
Konerko DH
Olivo C
Harris 2B

Rotation:

Buehrle
Loaiza
Garland
Schoenweiss
Rauch/Cotts/Pachecho/Diaz/Person

Bullpen:

Marte
Williamson
Koch
Wunsch
Ginter
Rauch/Pachecho/Person/Munoz

That's not the '27 Yankees, but that's a pretty good team. Good speed (Damon, Reed/Rowand, Harris, Olivo), pretty good defensively up the middle, good bullpen (really good bullpen if Koch bounced back) and tough lineup. The rotation would still be thin, but they'd be the best team in the central.

Uggh. I don't know if I'm more frustrated with JR for refusing to bend the payroll a bit more to make it happen, or with KW for signing PK and Koch to the deals that have us hamstrung now.

hold2dibber
01-15-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by clarkent
i have a feeling that this will get done after the Sox trade Konerko to LA for Perez only.

The Dodgers won't do that deal unless the Sox send a bunch of money along with Konerko (who is owed nearly $18 million over two years as compared to probably $5 million for Perez) - or take Hundley in return.

habibharu
01-15-2004, 01:27 PM
you cant blame KW. im sure you liked the signings when they happened

hold2dibber
01-15-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
you cant blame KW. im sure you liked the signings when they happened

I did not like the Koch signing - he was a risky proposition to begin with. I would have preferred that he wait to see what Koch did in '03 before giving him the '04 deal.

As to PK, I saw the value in re-signing him, but I thought they overpaid (although I must admit, I didn't at the time think they had grossly overpaid him - that conclusion is based on hindsight, I'll admit).

habibharu
01-15-2004, 01:31 PM
PK in 02 was amazing. he slowed down towards the end, but was one of the top 1B in the MLB

JasperSoxFan
01-15-2004, 01:34 PM
Please note: JasperSoxFan = Jasper_Red Sox_Fan. I'm visiting from RedSoxNation.net.

Damon's salary is $8M this year and $8.5M next year. Source: http://www.bluemanc.demon.co.uk/baseball/contracts.htm

I'd like to see this trade happen because I'd love to get Maggs and if we can move Damon's salary then maybe we'd be able to make a few more moves. We're basically at or a little over the luxury tax threshold and I don't think they want to go any higher.
So it seems we may be in a holding pattern until some salary gets moved.

I'm not crazy about Valentin (would obviously rather have A-Rod :smile: ) but if Nomar's a goner after this season anyway we might as well get something for him.

DirtySouthsider
01-15-2004, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I did not like the Koch signing - he was a risky proposition to begin with. I would have preferred that he wait to see what Koch did in '03 before giving him the '04 deal.

As to PK, I saw the value in re-signing him, but I thought they overpaid (although I must admit, I didn't at the time think they had grossly overpaid him - that conclusion is based on hindsight, I'll admit).


I believe when the Sox traded for Koch he was already signed thru '04. The Sox didn't give him that deal.

hold2dibber
01-15-2004, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
PK in 02 was amazing. he slowed down towards the end, but was one of the top 1B in the MLB

Exactly - the contract he got was based upon his performance in the 1st half of '02, when he was one of the top hitters in the game. Turns out, however, that that half season was an aberration. Never before, and never since, has he been that good.

hold2dibber
01-15-2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
I believe when the Sox traded for Koch he was already signed thru '04. The Sox didn't give him that deal.

Nope. He was Sox property through '04 after the trade and was arbitration eligible, but he didn't have a contract for '03 or '04. He filed for arbitration last year, but KW signed him to a 2 year deal before the hearing. In light of the fact that he was coming off of a career year and was coming off a year in which he had pitched a ton of innings and had a ton of appearances (and seriously faltered down the stretch), the smart play would have been a one year deal to avoid arbitration but a wait and see approach for '04.

habibharu
01-15-2004, 01:37 PM
Exactly - the contract he got was based upon his performance in the 1st half of '02, when he was one of the top hitters in the game. Turns out, however, that that half season was an aberration. Never before, and never since, has he been that good.

true but, he had to get the deal even if what he did was for the first half. theres no way you could just let him go after seeing his potential

hold2dibber
01-15-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by JasperSoxFan
I'm not crazy about Valentin (would obviously rather have A-Rod :smile: ) but if Nomar's a goner after this season anyway we might as well get something for him.

Valentin is on the last year of his deal, too, so he'd be gone after next year as well.

Who would play CF for the BoSox if this trade went down? Can Nixon play an adequate CF? Also, why would the Red Sox be looking to move Williamson? He doesn't make a ton of $ and he's a solid commodity. I'm surprised that they are, reportedly, looking to deal him. Putting aside those two issues, the trade would give the Red Sox a scary powerful lineup. Maggs would hit 35+ dingers at Fenway and Jose would hit 30 (although he'd probably hit about .235 along the way). Those two in addition to Ramirez, Nixon, Ortiz, Milar, Varitek - you're looking at a lineup with 7 guys over 20 HRs and possibly 5 or 6 over 30.

JasperSoxFan
01-15-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber

Who would play CF for the BoSox if this trade went down? Can Nixon play an adequate CF? Also, why would the Red Sox be looking to move Williamson? He doesn't make a ton of $ and he's a solid commodity. I'm surprised that they are, reportedly, looking to deal him.

Nixon has played center at times and I think he'd be adequate, though not nearly as good as Damon.

I think Williamson was in the original deal to help balance out the salaries (Nomar/Williamson for Maggs, these salaries are pretty much a wash). I'm not sure why he's still in there, unless your Sox want him in there regardless. I'd prefer the Red Sox held on to him, he had a great post-season once he got his personal problems behind him.

Iwritecode
01-15-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber


For the love of all that is good and just in the world, why the hell can't we have an owner who will loosen the purse strings a little under the circumstances? (The circumstances being a trade that would fill several important holes on the team provide some excitement and optimism for the upcoming season and give the Sox a fighting chance to win the division and not get completely entirely overshadowed by the Flubs.)

Uggh. I don't know if I'm more frustrated with JR for refusing to bend the payroll a bit more to make it happen, or with KW for signing PK and Koch to the deals that have us hamstrung now.


Originally posted by hold2dibber
I did not like the Koch signing - he was a risky proposition to begin with. I would have preferred that he wait to see what Koch did in '03 before giving him the '04 deal.

As to PK, I saw the value in re-signing him, but I thought they overpaid (although I must admit, I didn't at the time think they had grossly overpaid him - that conclusion is based on hindsight, I'll admit).


Originally posted by hold2dibber
Exactly - the contract he got was based upon his performance in the 1st half of '02, when he was one of the top hitters in the game. Turns out, however, that that half season was an aberration. Never before, and never since, has he been that good.


Originally posted by hold2dibber
Nope. He was Sox property through '04 after the trade and was arbitration eligible, but he didn't have a contract for '03 or '04. He filed for arbitration last year, but KW signed him to a 2 year deal before the hearing. In light of the fact that he was coming off of a career year and was coming off a year in which he had pitched a ton of innings and had a ton of appearances (and seriously faltered down the stretch), the smart play would have been a one year deal to avoid arbitration but a wait and see approach for '04.


Uh... what he said.

Thanks hold. I didn't fell like typing all that out anyway. :D:

voodoochile
01-15-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by JasperSoxFan
Please note: JasperSoxFan = Jasper_Red Sox_Fan. I'm visiting from RedSoxNation.net.

Damon's salary is $8M this year and $8.5M next year. Source: http://www.bluemanc.demon.co.uk/baseball/contracts.htm

I'd like to see this trade happen because I'd love to get Maggs and if we can move Damon's salary then maybe we'd be able to make a few more moves. We're basically at or a little over the luxury tax threshold and I don't think they want to go any higher.
So it seems we may be in a holding pattern until some salary gets moved.

I'm not crazy about Valentin (would obviously rather have A-Rod :smile: ) but if Nomar's a goner after this season anyway we might as well get something for him.

Welcome Aboard! :D:

There's only one true Sox around these parts, so thanks for the explanation... :)

Foulke You
01-15-2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by otis
..............Dead.

Talks resumed this morning, but didn't last long. Both teams agreed that there wasn't a match at this time. This is what I know happened. The teams were in agreement on swapping Nomar/ Williamson for Ordonez. This is not news to anyone as it was the trade a month ago. Boston really thinks that they need to trade Nomar and are salivating over the prospect of Ordonez in Fenway. The problem is that Boston doesn't have an option at Shortstop. They were OK on the idea of Valentin as a replacement. The question then became what do you trade Jose for. Understand that Boston was not going to add an additional 5 million without the White Sox taking equal money back. Boston declined on trading Nixon which was a natural money fit. Chicago wanted Damon and could have had him with an additional mid level prospect, but they were unwilling to take him without moving Konerko or Koch's salary. Understand that it wasn't just trading them for someone else. They looked into moving their contracts for fringe prospects to no avail to eliminate money off the books. So unless PK or BK get moved or Boston can acquire another shortstop, the trade is not going to happen. What a disappointing off season!

Damn. Thanks for the update Otis, even if it is bad news as usual. :(: This team is so short sighted and stubborn in their ways that it never ceases to amaze me. They keep topping themselves in stupidity. Here we have a trade that has the scales obviously tipped in our favor and they won't pull the trigger because of their ridiculously small budget. Even though the trade would fill holes for the Sox and make them more competitive which means more money for them due to increased interest in the team. Ugh.

:selljerry

JasperSoxFan
01-15-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Welcome Aboard! :D:


Thanks for the warm welcome. I found that trying to discuss the merits of this potential trade on the Red Sox forum is hopeless because you immmediately get shouted down by the Nomar groupies, and then the thread nazis jump in and lock the thread.

I used to think that just Yankee fans were yahoos, but Red Sox Nation has its fair share of them too.

hold2dibber
01-15-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Uh... what he said.

Thanks hold. I didn't fell like typing all that out anyway. :D:

I'm there for you, IWC. I'm always willing to pick up a little carpal tunnel syndrome for a fellow Sox fan. :D:

jabrch
01-15-2004, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by JasperSoxFan
Thanks for the warm welcome. I found that trying to discuss the merits of this potential trade on the Red Sox forum is hopeless because you immmediately get shouted down by the Nomar groupies, and then the thread nazis jump in and lock the thread.

I used to think that just Yankee fans were yahoos, but Red Sox Nation has its fair share of them too.

Check a Cubs board if you want Yahoos. At least Red Sox and Yanks fans are usually baseball-educated. Cubs fans often are fairly baseball-dumb as well.

1951Campbell
01-15-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by JasperSoxFan
We're basically at or a little over the luxury tax threshold...

:reinsy
"Luxury tax threshold? That's 58 million, right?"

34 Inch Stick
01-15-2004, 02:23 PM
Championships are built on teams that are strong up the middle. Right now we are very weak up the middle. This trade instantly makes us good and while we lose some hitting, we also lose some of the weak hitters from today's proposed lineup. This really seems like a no brainer to me.

Couldn't we call up the Mets and simply give them Koch?

ARoman27
01-15-2004, 02:29 PM
PK is obviously our stumbling block and has been all off-season. If we could only get Dan Evans in LA to bite at PK for Odalis Perez we would then be able to swing this deal with Boston. Bolster our starting rotation and solidify our lineup. Then we could see what Ross Gload has to offer at 1B. He would be a cheap alternative, and I think he could post decent numbers (.270, 20, 80) while playing better defense. He was solid in AAA last year and just ripped up the Mexican Winter League. So in essence we will pay PK just under $8 million more in '04 to give us another 10 homers and 20 ribbies? PK's salary was ludicrous at the time of signing - he's yet to put together a full-season at the dish. The last time he had a full-season of consistent hitting he won Minor League Player of the Year honors in the Dodgers organization. He finished strong last year, but unfortunately the season is 6-months long.

BeerHandle
01-15-2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
PK in 02 was amazing. he slowed down towards the end, but was one of the top 1B in the MLB

He sucked the minute he boarded the plane after the the All Star game.

DirtySouthsider
01-15-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by ARoman27
PK is obviously our stumbling block and has been all off-season. If we could only get Dan Evans in LA to bite at PK for Odalis Perez we would then be able to swing this deal with Boston. Bolster our starting rotation and solidify our lineup. Then we could see what Ross Gload has to offer at 1B. He would be a cheap alternative, and I think he could post decent numbers (.270, 20, 80) while playing better defense. He was solid in AAA last year and just ripped up the Mexican Winter League. So in essence we will pay PK just under $8 million more in '04 to give us another 10 homers and 20 ribbies? PK's salary was ludicrous at the time of signing - he's yet to put together a full-season at the dish. The last time he had a full-season of consistent hitting he won Minor League Player of the Year honors in the Dodgers organization. He finished strong last year, but unfortunately the season is 6-months long.


I think if we could 30hrs and 100 rbi's out of PK everybody would be very happy.

ARoman27
01-15-2004, 02:43 PM
My point exactly. The fact is we have no evidence that PK will ever re-gain his pre-All Star 2002 form. No to mention for a full season. We'll be lucky if he hits 30 homers. We'll be lucky if he produces 100 rbi's. Do you think the fact that no one is willing to take PK on a trade without the Sox picking up a major part of his contract is evident that he is overpaid?

maurice
01-15-2004, 02:46 PM
Plenty of folks here were against the PK signing and the Koch trade/signing at the time they occurred. Nonetheless, the blame again falls squarely on JR. Past mistakes by a GM are not a valid excuses for an owner to punish the fans by refusing to improve the team. Even Hicks is spending to improve the Rangers. We, OTOH, are stuck with a big-market team with a small-market mentality.

:selljerry

PaleHoseRon
01-15-2004, 02:50 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1951Campbell
[B]:reinsy
Member of the world's smallest minority...born and raised in Wisconsin, lifelong Sox fan, lifelong Packers fan.

Hey, I'm part of that minority too!

Iwritecode
01-15-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by ARoman27
Do you think the fact that no one is willing to take PK on a trade without the Sox picking up a major part of his contract is evident that he is overpaid?

That's exactly what is wrong. For the numbers he puts up, PK is overpaid.

Hell, we have a guy that has been on the team a lot longer and his career numbers are better than PK's best. Yet he gets paid less and plays the same position in the field.

cornball
01-15-2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Plenty of folks here were against the PK signing and the Koch trade/signing at the time they occurred. Nonetheless, the blame again falls squarely on JR. Past mistakes by a GM are not a valid excuses for an owner to punish the fans by refusing to improve the team. Even Hicks is spending to improve the Rangers. We, OTOH, are stuck with a big-market team with a small-market mentality.

:selljerry

Like every issue here, several people were in favor of those signings too. If I recall right, KW was happy with the Koch deal because there were extra years on his contract...when he knew Foulke wouldn't be resigned because of money.

I agree it falls all on JR. His cheapness is ruining the hope of the fan base. I give KW all the credit for continuing to try to improve this team, under these circumstances.

I wonder if a future hall of fame pitcher was from the southside (like the Clemens/Houston situation) and wanted to see his hometown team go to the series, if JR would turn it down because of money.

hold2dibber
01-15-2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by ARoman27
PK is obviously our stumbling block and has been all off-season. If we could only get Dan Evans in LA to bite at PK for Odalis Perez we would then be able to swing this deal with Boston. Bolster our starting rotation and solidify our lineup. Then we could see what Ross Gload has to offer at 1B. He would be a cheap alternative, and I think he could post decent numbers (.270, 20, 80) while playing better defense. He was solid in AAA last year and just ripped up the Mexican Winter League. So in essence we will pay PK just under $8 million more in '04 to give us another 10 homers and 20 ribbies? PK's salary was ludicrous at the time of signing - he's yet to put together a full-season at the dish. The last time he had a full-season of consistent hitting he won Minor League Player of the Year honors in the Dodgers organization. He finished strong last year, but unfortunately the season is 6-months long.

I don't know a ton about Gload, but from what I understand, last year was his best ever in the minors - and he didn't hit 20 HRs (only 18) or drive in 80 runs (70 RBIs) playing at Charlotte. I seriously doubt he'd be a .270/20/80 guy. In fact, I'm pretty sure Liefer was much better in the minors than Gload ever was. I think Gload would be more like .240/12/50. Which is pretty close to what PK was last year.

In any event, I'd still do the PK/Perez deal even if it left a hole at 1B, because the Sox really need pitching and because it would allow the Red Sox deal to go through. But there's no way the Dodgers are going to take on $18 million of PK's contract while we only take on about $5 million for Perez.

Which got me to thinking ... what would you think about agreeing to take Hundley in addition to Perez? Hundley is going into the last year of his contract, at $6.5 million. So it would mean increasing payroll in '03 by a few million, but decreasing it in '05. Hundley is, of course, horrible. But would it be worth taking him on in order to move PK's salary and pick up a solid starting pitcher with a high ceiling? I'm not necessarily advocating it, but I'd at least consider it.

Iwritecode
01-15-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
I think if we could 30hrs and 100 rbi's out of PK everybody would be very happy.

His career highs are 32 homeruns and 104 RBI's (in two different seasons).

Even if he put up those numbers, he's still overpaid at 8 million a year.

The only silver lining we have is that it's possible that he may return to form and put up some decent numbers next year. After looking at his season totals, he really only had one horrible season.

His first four years on the Sox he averaged .294/.356/.499 with 95 RBI's and 26 HR's

Adding in last year they fell to .246/.345/.497 with 89 RBI's and 24 HR's

The only problem is that unless he puts up Thomas-like numbers, he's still not worth what he's being paid...

chisox06
01-15-2004, 03:11 PM
this WOULD be a great trade for the sox, this would put us as the favorite in the AL Central without a doubt. but JR's self imposed salary cap, is what stands in the way. What a prick. Its BS like this that is going to make me stay away from the park next year, I cant tell ya how angry I am. Raise ticket prices, cap your ballclub to the point where its VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE to improve this right now mediocre ball club, (trade being the perfect example), and you want me to come and spend my money so you can line your pockets?? Up yours you cheap bastard! But hey at least he wants to win more than us. :angry:

ARoman27
01-15-2004, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hold2dibber
[B]I don't know a ton about Gload, but from what I understand, last year was his best ever in the minors - and he didn't hit 20 HRs (only 18) or drive in 80 runs (70 RBIs) playing at Charlotte. I seriously doubt he'd be a .270/20/80 guy. In fact, I'm pretty sure Liefer was much better in the minors than Gload ever was. I think Gload would be more like .240/12/50. Which is pretty close to what PK was last year.


You don't know a ton about Gload but you doubt he could hit .270 at the major league level. He cranked out 76 hits in 51 games of winter ball. Don't even try to compare him to Jeff Liefer because Gload is also known as having great plate discipline. Something we've yet to see in the ridiculously high-touted Borchard. We can also mention that Gload isn't a fat-ass, slow as molasses runner like Konerko and he can play the corner OF positions.

JDP
01-15-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Which got me to thinking ... what would you think about agreeing to take Hundley in addition to Perez? Hundley is going into the last year of his contract, at $6.5 million. So it would mean increasing payroll in '03 by a few million, but decreasing it in '05. Hundley is, of course, horrible. But would it be worth taking him on in order to move PK's salary and pick up a solid starting pitcher with a high ceiling? I'm not necessarily advocating it, but I'd at least consider it.

Jesus, that deal is so bad that we're adding salary onto last year's payroll? LOL.

Deadguy
01-15-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by otis
..............Dead.

Talks resumed this morning, but didn't last long. Both teams agreed that there wasn't a match at this time. This is what I know happened. The teams were in agreement on swapping Nomar/ Williamson for Ordonez. This is not news to anyone as it was the trade a month ago. Boston really thinks that they need to trade Nomar and are salivating over the prospect of Ordonez in Fenway. The problem is that Boston doesn't have an option at Shortstop. They were OK on the idea of Valentin as a replacement. The question then became what do you trade Jose for. Understand that Boston was not going to add an additional 5 million without the White Sox taking equal money back. Boston declined on trading Nixon which was a natural money fit. Chicago wanted Damon and could have had him with an additional mid level prospect, but they were unwilling to take him without moving Konerko or Koch's salary. Understand that it wasn't just trading them for someone else. They looked into moving their contracts for fringe prospects to no avail to eliminate money off the books. So unless PK or BK get moved or Boston can acquire another shortstop, the trade is not going to happen. What a disappointing off season!

Thanks for the update Otis.

The death of the deal just fuels my overwhelming hatred for Konerko. I know the death of this deal isn't directly his fault, but I'm beginning to hate him more than I hated Jamie Navarro, and I didn't think there'd ever be a Sox player that I hated more than Jamie.

yadosoxfan
01-15-2004, 04:02 PM
I look at the lineup posted above and it really does not scare me. I think Kansas City has a much better lineup, and with the sad starting pitching, I really am getting worried. We need some left handed power, that's why trot nixon would have been a great fit, but if we have to take damon and add salary, it's not worth it IMO.

kittle42
01-15-2004, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by ARoman27
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hold2dibber
[B]You don't know a ton about Gload but you doubt he could hit .270 at the major league level. He cranked out 76 hits in 51 games of winter ball. Don't even try to compare him to Jeff Liefer because Gload is also known as having great plate discipline. Something we've yet to see in the ridiculously high-touted Borchard. We can also mention that Gload isn't a fat-ass, slow as molasses runner like Konerko and he can play the corner OF positions.

At the risk of being as redundant as tanko about Politte....

Ross Gload == Crash Davis

And now that I think about it, it's probably an insult to Crash.

SoxOnTop
01-15-2004, 04:05 PM
We have a ton of corner outfield prospects and not a single centerfield prospect.

We would be trading one All-Star calibur player at non-critical position for 2 All-star calibur players at 2 of the most important positions on the field.

Plus we'd get right handed reliever help. Are you kidding me????

Why is this not done yet?!?!?!?!?

kittle42
01-15-2004, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
Are you kidding me???? Why is this not done yet?!?!?!?!?

I believe this question has been beaten to death around here.

SoxOnTop
01-15-2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
I believe this question has been beaten to death around here.

I agree. But I had yet to chime in and I felt left out. :gulp:

ND_Sox_Fan
01-15-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
He sucked the minute he boarded the plane after the the All Star game.

Didn't Thomas warn him about messing up his swing in the HR derby?????

I think so - and Thomas was portrayed as a sore loser at the time.

hold2dibber
01-15-2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by ARoman27
[You don't know a ton about Gload but you doubt he could hit .270 at the major league level. He cranked out 76 hits in 51 games of winter ball. Don't even try to compare him to Jeff Liefer because Gload is also known as having great plate discipline. Something we've yet to see in the ridiculously high-touted Borchard. We can also mention that Gload isn't a fat-ass, slow as molasses runner like Konerko and he can play the corner OF positions.

Sheesh - what're you his brother or something? Don't be so touchy. :smile: Again, I don't have his minor league stats in front of me (except for last year), but have been told by people who I believe know what they're talking about that he had a career year last year. As for his winter league ball stats, they're good, but I put very little stock in winter ball numbers as in my experience, they don't really translate to MLB performance. Finally, at least in '03, Gload's plate discipline was not very impressive - only 29 BBs in well over 500 plate appearances. And I thought Liefer showed good plate discipline in the minors - but I'm not sure if I'm remembering that correctly.

Maybe Gload will turn into a legit major leaguer, but I'm still far from convinced. If I'm missing something (which is certainly possible), please explain.

MarkEdward
01-15-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Sheesh - what're you his brother or something? Don't be so touchy. :smile: Again, I don't have his minor league stats in front of me (except for last year), but have been told by people who I believe know what they're talking about that he had a career year last year.

Here are Gload's career stats:
http://tsf.waymoresports.thestar.com/thestar/baseball/player.cgi?2409

Also, here are his minor league-translated stats from Baseball Prospectus:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/current/eqamin.html

Gload and Joe Crede had the same EQA (equivalent average, a better version of Boswell's Total Average) last year, both hitting .240. He might make a good platoon mate for Konerko, but I wouldn't want him starting on my team.

As for his winter league ball stats, they're good, but I put very little stock in winter ball numbers as in my experience, they don't really translate to MLB performance.

Very good point- winter league stats may be fun to look at, but they're not very useful for evaluating players.

kittle42
01-15-2004, 05:32 PM
Those stats do NOT show that Ross Gload is known for having patience at the plate.

But I hear he tears up pitching in his favroite bar's softball league.

john2499
01-15-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
I believe this question has been beaten to death around here.

Yeah, well lets beat it some more!!

This team (like my other favorite team in this city, The Blackhawks) has done more to alienate my loyalty (since August 1994), I don't know why I care!!!!

If this supposed deal is true, it would fill two major positional holes in the Sox lineup, and bring a quality reliever here as well.
They would be losing their best player, but receiving 3 quality ones in return seems to justify the trade.

Meanwhile the team from the north side is putting together a team that will embarrass us in June and July!!!

mdep524
01-15-2004, 07:36 PM
Wow. If the only reason this too-good-to-be-true trade didn't get done was purely because of a marginal increase in payroll, today is a sad, sad day. Sad and AGGRAVATING :angry: :angry: :angry:

I wish there was some way we could confront JR DIRECTLY and tell him how ridiculous of a decison this is.

gosox41
01-15-2004, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
I believe when the Sox traded for Koch he was already signed thru '04. The Sox didn't give him that deal.

Yes they did.

Bob

doctor30th
01-15-2004, 09:10 PM
This deal from last year actually makes me sick to my stomach. What a waste.

Koch Signs (http://www.allsports.com/cgi-bin/showstory.cgi?story_id=38568)

Tragg
01-15-2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by otis
..............Dead.

Talks resumed this morning, but didn't last long. Both teams agreed that there wasn't a match at this time. This is what I know happened. The teams were in agreement on swapping Nomar/ Williamson for Ordonez. This is not news to anyone as it was the trade a month ago. Boston really thinks that they need to trade Nomar and are salivating over the prospect of Ordonez in Fenway.

Someone remind me- why is trading Maggs for nomar and williamson a good deal for us?

john2499
01-16-2004, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
Someone remind me- why is trading Maggs for nomar and williamson a good deal for us?

Because Mags can't give the Sox quality innings out of the bullpen.

gosox41
01-16-2004, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by otis
..............Dead.

Talks resumed this morning, but didn't last long. Both teams agreed that there wasn't a match at this time. This is what I know happened. The teams were in agreement on swapping Nomar/ Williamson for Ordonez. This is not news to anyone as it was the trade a month ago. Boston really thinks that they need to trade Nomar and are salivating over the prospect of Ordonez in Fenway. The problem is that Boston doesn't have an option at Shortstop. They were OK on the idea of Valentin as a replacement. The question then became what do you trade Jose for. Understand that Boston was not going to add an additional 5 million without the White Sox taking equal money back. Boston declined on trading Nixon which was a natural money fit. Chicago wanted Damon and could have had him with an additional mid level prospect, but they were unwilling to take him without moving Konerko or Koch's salary. Understand that it wasn't just trading them for someone else. They looked into moving their contracts for fringe prospects to no avail to eliminate money off the books. So unless PK or BK get moved or Boston can acquire another shortstop, the trade is not going to happen. What a disappointing off season!

This is where once again the Sox screwed up. The Sox should trade for Damon, Nomar, and Williamson. Then immediately trade Nomar to LA for Pere, Mota, and their top prospect. It gives the Sox even more pitching which they need, a top prospect, and frees up money. Doing this trade as is still wasn't going to help the team taht much.

But if the Sox could turn Ordonez and Valentin into Damon, Williamson, Perez, Mota, FA starting pitcher + a top prospect I'd be much more excited.

If the Sox did the above deal as it stood, their offense would improve, but not enough to justify having Schoenweis and Rauch as your 4th and 5th starters. But having Perez as a #4 go, getting a 5th starter on the FA market plus having both Williamson and Mota back up Marte makes the team that much strong for next season.

Bob

Tragg
01-16-2004, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by john2499
Because Mags can't give the Sox quality innings out of the bullpen.

So we give up one of the best hitters in baseball for a good hitter (but nowhere near Maggs) off of a so-so year that another team clearly wants to dump and whom we'll lose in a year, so we can get a middle reliever? We had a decent middle reliever- Sullivan.

Tragg
01-16-2004, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
This is where once again the Sox screwed up. The Sox should trade for Damon, Nomar, and Williamson. Then immediately trade Nomar to LA for Pere, Mota, and their top prospect. It gives the Sox even more pitching which they need, a top prospect, and frees up money. Doing this trade as is still wasn't going to help the team taht much.


Bob

That would make more sense- trading for Nomar to keep him makes no sense.

1951Campbell
01-16-2004, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseRon
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1951Campbell
[B]:reinsy
Member of the world's smallest minority...born and raised in Wisconsin, lifelong Sox fan, lifelong Packers fan.

Hey, I'm part of that minority too!

Then you understannd how summers are despair and winters a joy!

hold2dibber
01-16-2004, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Tragg
So we give up one of the best hitters in baseball for a good hitter (but nowhere near Maggs) off of a so-so year that another team clearly wants to dump and whom we'll lose in a year, so we can get a middle reliever? We had a decent middle reliever- Sullivan.

I'm not sure how you get that Nomar is "nowhere near Maggs" offensively. They're actually very comparable. In '03:

HR: Maggs 29, Nomar 28
RBI: Maggs 99, Nomar 105
AVG: Maggs .317, Nomar .301
OPS: Maggs .926, Nomar .876

So Maggs was certainly better, but Nomar was nearly as good. And if you look at their careers as a whole, they're even closer. Their 162 game averages through '03:

Nomar: 30 HR, 117 RBI, .323 AVG., .925 OPS
Maggs: 30 HR, 114 RBI, .307 AVG., .892 OPS

So Nomar has actually been marginally better over the last six years. Also, Nomar steals more bases (19 vs. 9 last year) and plays a MUCH more important position defensively.

So with all things considered equal, I'd take Nomar over Maggs.

Then look at the rest of the trade:

Valentin and prospect for
Williamson and Damon

Of course, we don't know who the prospect is. But we do know that the Sox are very thin in the bullpen and that they don't have a quality CF. They also don't have anyone who is even close to being a decent major league lead off man. Damon is a quality CF/lead off man and Williamson is a quality reliever. So, frankly, as long as the prospect isn't Reed (or maybe Honel - maybe), I'd make the trade. Unless, of course, the owner of my team imposed a hard ceiling budget that he wouldn't move even if the trade likely would make him more money in the long run.

hold2dibber
01-16-2004, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
This is where once again the Sox screwed up. The Sox should trade for Damon, Nomar, and Williamson. Then immediately trade Nomar to LA for Pere, Mota, and their top prospect. It gives the Sox even more pitching which they need, a top prospect, and frees up money. Doing this trade as is still wasn't going to help the team taht much.

But if the Sox could turn Ordonez and Valentin into Damon, Williamson, Perez, Mota, FA starting pitcher + a top prospect I'd be much more excited.

If the Sox did the above deal as it stood, their offense would improve, but not enough to justify having Schoenweis and Rauch as your 4th and 5th starters. But having Perez as a #4 go, getting a 5th starter on the FA market plus having both Williamson and Mota back up Marte makes the team that much strong for next season.

Bob

The only problem I see with your plan is that it leaves Uribe as the Sox starting SS. And I'm not certain that he's good enough to be Charlotte's starting SS. Back when Guillen was available and Aurillia was still on the market, I would have been in favor of moving Garciaparra to LA for pitching. If the Sox did what you propose, their line-up would be:

Damon CF
Reed/Rowand RF
Thomas 1B
Lee LF
Crede 3B
Konerko 1B
Olivo C
Uribe SS
Harris 2B

That's not a good line-up.

Man Soo Lee
01-16-2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
This is where once again the Sox screwed up. The Sox should trade for Damon, Nomar, and Williamson. Then immediately trade Nomar to LA for Pere, Mota, and their top prospect. It gives the Sox even more pitching which they need, a top prospect, and frees up money. Doing this trade as is still wasn't going to help the team taht much.

But if the Sox could turn Ordonez and Valentin into Damon, Williamson, Perez, Mota, FA starting pitcher + a top prospect I'd be much more excited.

If the Sox did the above deal as it stood, their offense would improve, but not enough to justify having Schoenweis and Rauch as your 4th and 5th starters. But having Perez as a #4 go, getting a 5th starter on the FA market plus having both Williamson and Mota back up Marte makes the team that much strong for next season.

Bob

No doubt that's a significantly better pitching staff, but you'd have a batting order that included Harris, Uribe, Olivo, and one of Rowand/Reed/Borchard in RF. Not to mention question marks in Konerko and Crede.

Between Ordonez and Valentin, $19 million in salary goes to Boston. Damon ($8M), Williamson (~$2.5M), Perez (~$3.5M), and Mota (~$1.5M) bring $15.5 million back. (And I may have been conservative in the arbitration estimates for the pitchers.) That leaves $3.5 million for a 5th starter and/or additions to the lineup.

Even if you could add more salary, there aren't many free agent middle infielders that will hit and I don't know who might be available in trade.

At least no one could fault Ozzie for playing small ball with that lineup... :D:

EDIT: hold2dibber beat me to it.

john2499
01-16-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
So we give up one of the best hitters in baseball for a good hitter (but nowhere near Maggs) off of a so-so year that another team clearly wants to dump and whom we'll lose in a year, so we can get a middle reliever? We had a decent middle reliever- Sullivan.

Yes!!

gosox41
01-17-2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
The only problem I see with your plan is that it leaves Uribe as the Sox starting SS. And I'm not certain that he's good enough to be Charlotte's starting SS. Back when Guillen was available and Aurillia was still on the market, I would have been in favor of moving Garciaparra to LA for pitching. If the Sox did what you propose, their line-up would be:

Damon CF
Reed/Rowand RF
Thomas 1B
Lee LF
Crede 3B
Konerko 1B
Olivo C
Uribe SS
Harris 2B

That's not a good line-up.

It may not be much of a line up, but with the pitching the Sox currently have they're not going to win anyway. They need to get a pitching staff that could keep them in games then see how the offense works out. It's easier to acquire a hitter during the season then a pitcher.

Bob