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JDP
01-14-2004, 03:39 PM
I realize that Tampa Bay has a lot of money to move around and what not, but still, they have outdone the Sox in active productivity this offseason.

Here is what Tampa has done thus far: Activity (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=tam)

Such a high volume of activity -- could the Sox not have gotten some of those low-risk / high profit minor league contracts or signed some of the lower tiered free agents? Is Tampa that well run of an organization?

kittle42
01-14-2004, 03:41 PM
:reinsy
"You see, Tampa Bay is in a big market. No? Well, they have an outpouring of fan support. They don't? Well, they have a history of winning. No on that, too? Well, this lack of comparisons between the Rays and the Sox is the fault of Sox fans. What Sox fan would want thier team to be like the Devil Rays?"

JDP
01-14-2004, 03:46 PM
Nice to know that a team with 1/10th the city population, 1/10th the history, 1/5th the payroll, 1/5th the fan base of the Sox is at least attempting, in their own way, to 'improve.'

Jjav829
01-14-2004, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by JDP
I realize that Tampa Bay has a lot of money to move around and what not, but still, they have outdone the Sox in active productivity this offseason.

Here is what Tampa has done thus far: Activity (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=tam)

Such a high volume of activity -- could the Sox not have gotten some of those low-risk / high profit minor league contracts or signed some of the lower tiered free agents? Is Tampa that well run of an organization?

They really have done a pretty good job. They really haven't lost much outside of Marlon Anderson maybe. They're not gonna compete for much but a bunch of small signings like that could at least make them a little more interesting to watch and keep them from being easy games for the rest of the AL East.

Cruz Jr., Baez, Perez, a cheap Tino Martinez, Blum, Fick, resigning Huff as well as giving minor league contracts to guys like Tatis, Mike Williams, and Deivi Cruz to see if they can catch lightning in a bottle looks pretty damn productive. Better than LaMar's normal plan of overpaying for aging veterans. You know, if they were in the AL Central they might actually have a chance to compete.

JDP
01-14-2004, 03:55 PM
Exactly -- in their division, they are just trying to keep their heads above water; however, had they been in the Central, they might makes waves in that water and make a push for the Central crown.

Which brings me to this point: if Tampa Bay can do it and obviously did do it, what implications would even half of such 'lightning in a bottle' or low-cost / low-tiered free agent signings had on the Sox and their chances in '04?

hold2dibber
01-14-2004, 04:36 PM
There have been a number of teams that have improved themselves with relatively low-cost players this off-season, with the D-Rays, Royals and Blue Jays being the most prominent. There are several ways to look at the Sox' failure to do so:

(1) KW has simply dropped the ball because he thinks the roster he has now is good enough;

(2) KW has been imersed in trying to make a blockbuster and has let some good low-cost alternatives fly under his radar;

(3) JR has such tight reins on the purse strings that KW really can't do anything other than sign guys to minor league deals.

In any event, the Sox have to date missed opportunity after opportunity to improve the club, either by blockbuster acquition or by cummulative addition of productive low cost role players. I'm just about as disgusted as I could possibly be as a Sox fan, particularly in light of the fact that the Cubs, as I've always feared, have finally started using their wealth productively. IMHO, the Cubs worst case scenario is about 85 wins, which is about the best case scenario for the Sox. Which means another summer of media fawning over the Cubs and the continued erosion of the Sox fan base. Good work, Mr. Reinsdorf!

MisterB
01-14-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by JDP
Exactly -- in their division, they are just trying to keep their heads above water; however, had they been in the Central, they might makes waves in that water and make a push for the Central crown.

Which brings me to this point: if Tampa Bay can do it and obviously did do it, what implications would even half of such 'lightning in a bottle' or low-cost / low-tiered free agent signings had on the Sox and their chances in '04?

My Lord. We're now deluding ourselves that a team that lost 99 games last year is in fact as good if not better than the Sox are. 99 losses is not 'keeping your head above water', it's solidly on the sea floor. I'm sorry, but this is self-pitying crap. Wake me when the D-Rays finish a season with less than 90 losses...

DirtySouthsider
01-14-2004, 04:57 PM
Of course the D-Rays should be doing more because they have a lot more holes to fill.

HITMEN OF 77
01-14-2004, 05:40 PM
Funny thing is though, they can do more, but we will still finish with a better record than them. Shop away D-Rays.

petekat
01-14-2004, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by JDP
I realize that Tampa Bay has a lot of money to move around and what not, but still, they have outdone the Sox in active productivity this offseason.

Here is what Tampa has done thus far: Activity (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=tam)

Such a high volume of activity -- could the Sox not have gotten some of those low-risk / high profit minor league contracts or signed some of the lower tiered free agents? Is Tampa that well run of an organization?


Give me a break. The Rays signed a lot of pondscum. If you have a dozen holes on your 40 man roster, of course you're going to look relatively busy in comparison:

With the exception of Jose Cruz, don't see a solid pickup here. Fick and Lugo are head cases. The others are highly marginal.
Who would you recommend the Sox dump off their 40 man for some of these guys?

Do you really want/need retreads like Tatis, Meluskey? Baez is very shaky (the Indians dropped him outright), and expensive at 3.5/4 mill per.

I'm as frustrated as many of you with the limited pickups, but let's be realistic here!!!




Players signed
SS Julio Lugo (option picked up)
RHP Paul Abbott (Royals)
LHP John Halama (A's)
OF Eduardo Perez (Cardinals)
SS Rey Sanchez (Mariners)
OF Jose Cruz Jr. (Giants)
C Brook Fordyce (Orioles)
RHP Danys Baez (Indians)
SS Deivi Cruz (Orioles*)
1B Robert Fick (Braves)
3B Fernando Tatis (Expos*)
LHP Mike Holtz (Pirates*)
C Mitch Meluskey (Astros*)
RHP Al Reyes (Yankees*)
RHP Todd Jones (Red Sox*)
RHP Mike Williams (Phillies*)
Acquired via trade Players traded
1B Tino Martinez (Cardinals) P Evan Rust, player to be named
LHP Mark Hendrickson (Blue Jays) LHP Joe Kennedy (Rockies)
3B Geoff Blum (Astros) RHP Brandon Backe
*Minor-league deal

Jjav829
01-14-2004, 06:48 PM
Ahh, it's back to the old "They're not superstar players, so they aren't worth signing" mentality.

The only way I could see these signings not being beneficial is if they hold back any of the Rays prospects. Otherwise, they'll get some good production out of these guys. Will they win more than the Sox? Who knows. It's impossible to tell. The Devil Rays will play 76 games against two great teams and two improved teams. That compared to the Sox who will be playing against 4 teams that are all at or around the same level of crappiness they are at.

JDP
01-14-2004, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
My Lord. We're now deluding ourselves that a team that lost 99 games last year is in fact as good if not better than the Sox are. 99 losses is not 'keeping your head above water', it's solidly on the sea floor. I'm sorry, but this is self-pitying crap. Wake me when the D-Rays finish a season with less than 90 losses...

First off, attempting to "hold heads above water" applies for 2004 where these moves were made for -- I don't see 99 loses on their record for the 2004 season, do you?

Secondly, the Sox played mush in 2003 and will continue to play mush in 2004 under their unbalanced schedule. Think the Sox would be anywhere near 86 wins if they were in the East?

Lastly, too many hundreds of millions of reasons to let your attempt at slander be effective.

Interesting line to think about and try to estimate:
Sox vs. D-Ray's '04 schedule.
D-Ray's vs. Sox' '04 schedule.

Estimated records?

fquaye149
01-14-2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Ahh, it's back to the old "They're not superstar players, so they aren't worth signing" mentality.

The only way I could see these signings not being beneficial is if they hold back any of the Rays prospects. Otherwise, they'll get some good production out of these guys. Will they win more than the Sox? Who knows. It's impossible to tell. The Devil Rays will play 76 games against two great teams and two improved teams. That compared to the Sox who will be playing against 4 teams that are all at or around the same level of crappiness they are at.

didn't we mock kw when he signed politte?

JDP
01-14-2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
didn't we mock kw when he signed politte?

Is there a difference between non-superstar's and free agent middle relievers with an ERA over 5?

Jjav829
01-14-2004, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
didn't we mock kw when he signed politte?

Who is we? I have/had no problem with the Politte signing. No he isn't a great reliever but he's a guy who could become a good setup man for Marte/Koch if all goes well. Your point? :?:

fquaye149
01-15-2004, 12:00 AM
if you supported the signing then you are perfectly within your rights to point to the d-rays and say we are lacking in offseason moves..


however i noticed many on this site did not suport the politte signing, rather choosing to mock kw. politte is no superstar, but he is not much worse than most of the devil-rays' free agent signings. in fact, he might actually make the opening day roster as opposed to, for example, fernando tatis....

that's my point...you can't have your cake and eat it too...either you condemn kw for signing politte because he is a sketchy player, or you praise the drays for making similar moves....don't be unduly critical of the orginization while there is plenty of blame and criticism they actually DO deserve

JDP
01-15-2004, 12:10 AM
fquaye149: You're up in GB, actually claim it, and still live to tell about it amongst Chicago fans?

MisterB
01-15-2004, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by JDP
First off, attempting to "hold heads above water" applies for 2004 where these moves were made for -- I don't see 99 loses on their record for the 2004 season, do you?

Secondly, the Sox played mush in 2003 and will continue to play mush in 2004 under their unbalanced schedule. Think the Sox would be anywhere near 86 wins if they were in the East?

Lastly, too many hundreds of millions of reasons to let your attempt at slander be effective.

Interesting line to think about and try to estimate:
Sox vs. D-Ray's '04 schedule.
D-Ray's vs. Sox' '04 schedule.

Estimated records?

Sorry. The 'self-pitying crap' line shouldn't have been directed at your post specifically. I'm just tired of the lack of perspective that keeps showing up in threads lately. The fact is the Sox aren't looking good right now, but TB is BAD. They've lost 90+ games every year of their existence while the Sox haven't lost that many in 15 years. So many posts around here go on as if the Sox have been losing 100 games a season for decades. Have they been disappointing? Hell yes. But that's because we're expecting a lot out of them. Don't you think that TB fans would kill just to see the Rays finish with the Sox' record for any of the last 4 years? Simply put, teams like TB and Detroit are going to have to work hard just to get to the level of mediocrity that we're worried about the Sox sinking to. [/rant]

fquaye149
01-15-2004, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by JDP
fquaye149: You're up in GB, actually claim it, and still live to tell about it amongst Chicago fans?


haha 'tis true...i just hope they understand i'm a diehard bears and sox fan

JDP
01-15-2004, 09:00 AM
Ha, it's all good -- just don't mention the P-word and you should be fine.