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hold2dibber
01-14-2004, 12:39 PM
I know this was covered a few months back, but I can't remember the answer. The Sox have lost Sullivan to the Royals, Alomar to the D-Backs, Gordon to the Yankees, Colon to the Angels, Graffinino to the Royals and Everett to the Expos. What will they get in draft pick compensation based upon these defections? And what does the Angels' signing of Vlad Guerrero (and the Yankees' signing of Sheffield) mean for the Sox compensation for Colon (and Gordon)?

Dadawg_77
01-14-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I know this was covered a few months back, but I can't remember the answer. The Sox have lost Sullivan to the Royals, Alomar to the D-Backs, Gordon to the Yankees, Colon to the Angels, Graffinino to the Royals and Everett to the Expos. What will they get in draft pick compensation based upon these defections? And what does the Angels' signing of Vlad Guerrero (and the Yankees' signing of Sheffield) mean for the Sox compensation for Colon (and Gordon)?

From Baseball Prospectus.com Among the refuseniks, Alomar and Everett were both classified as Type-A players by the Elias Sports Bureau, so the Sox are potentially sacrificing a whole slew of draft picks here. Of the two, Everett has kept a larger percentage of his skills intact, received the richer free agent deal, and would have been more likely to help the Sox in 2004 in the event that they were stuck with him. Fortunately, both Colon and Gordon were also classified as Type As, so the team's revamped scouting and development staff will be plenty busy come June.

Rex Hudler
01-14-2004, 12:58 PM
The Sox do not get picks from losing Everett, Sullivan, Alomar or Graffanino, but do for losing Colon and Gordon. They get a second round pick from the Yankees for losing Gordon because Paul Quantrill was rated higher, therefore giving the Dodgers the Yankees 1st round pick. They get a second round pick for losing Colon because the Angels cannot lose their first round pick since they are set to draft in the top 15 positions.

The Sox do also get a supplemental 1st round pick for each player in addition to aforementioned picks from each team. Gary Sheffield and Vladimir Guerrero were not offered arbitration, so they do not affect these picks.

The Sox will have their regular first round pick, the 32nd and 40th picks overall (supplemental picks) and three picks in the 2nd round. This should provide a good balance for the Sox that will allow them to find good baseball players that are not looking to break the bank, ala Jeremy Reed or Ryan Wing. If the Sox were loaded with three first round picks, it is not likely they would have the budget to sign three guys at $1.5 million or more.

Here is the list of compensation picks from free agency.

First Round
22. Twins (from Mariners for Eddie Guardado)
23. Yankees (from Astros for Andy Pettitte)
24. Athletics (from Red Sox for Keith Foulke)
25. Twins (from Cubs for LaTroy Hawkins)
28. Dodgers (from Yankees for Paul Quantrill)
29. Royals (from Giants for Michael Tucker)
30. Rangers (from Braves for John Thomson)

Supplemental First Round
31. Athletics (for Foulke)
32. White Sox (for Bartolo Colon)
33. Yankees (for Pettitte)
34. Twins (for Guardado)
35. Athletics (for Miguel Tejada)
36. Twins (for Hawkins)
37. Royals (for Raul Ibanez)
38. Yankees (for David Wells)
39. Dodgers (for Quantrill)
40. White Sox (for Tom Gordon)
41. Blue Jays (for Kelvim Escobar)

Second Round
42. Yankees (from Padres for Wells)
49. Athletics (from Orioles for Tejada)
53. White Sox (from Angels for Colon)
63. Royals (from Mariners for Ibanez)
69. White Sox (from Yankees for Gordon)

Third Round
83. Blue Jays (from Angels for Escobar)

Rex Hudler
01-14-2004, 01:22 PM
Among the refuseniks, Alomar and Everett were both classified as Type-A players by the Elias Sports Bureau, so the Sox are potentially sacrificing a whole slew of draft picks here. Of the two, Everett has kept a larger percentage of his skills intact, received the richer free agent deal, and would have been more likely to help the Sox in 2004 in the event that they were stuck with him.

The Sox did the right thing in not offering arbitration to Alomar and Everett. If the Sox offered arbitration, both players would have gladly accepted and the Sox would have been stuck with them. On the surface that would not be so bad, but there are salary implications the Sox (nor any team) would be willing to deal with.

Arbitration rules prevent a club from offering less than a salary equal to a 20% paycut from what the player earned the previous season.

Under that scenario, Everett would have earned a minimum of $7.32 million for 2004. Realistically, I don't see how an arbitrator would make him take a 20% paycut based on last season. More likely, since Carl had a very good season, he would have gotten a modest raise, leaving the Sox on the hook for roughly $10 million for Carl. There is no way any club would pay him that, which is evident by him only getting $7 million for TWO seasons with Montreal.

Alomar would have received a minimum of $6.4 million. Again way too much. I would hope everyone would agree to that.

The bottom line is the right decision was made on those two guys.

hold2dibber
01-14-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
The Sox do not get picks from losing Everett, Sullivan, Alomar or Graffanino, but do for losing Colon and Gordon. They get a second round pick from the Yankees for losing Gordon because Paul Quantrill was rated higher, therefore giving the Dodgers the Yankees 1st round pick. They get a second round pick for losing Colon because the Angels cannot lose their first round pick since they are set to draft in the top 15 positions.

The Sox do also get a supplemental 1st round pick for each player in addition to aforementioned picks from each team. Gary Sheffield and Vladimir Guerrero were not offered arbitration, so they do not affect these picks.

The Sox will have their regular first round pick, the 32nd and 40th picks overall (supplemental picks) and three picks in the 2nd round. This should provide a good balance for the Sox that will allow them to find good baseball players that are not looking to break the bank, ala Jeremy Reed or Ryan Wing. If the Sox were loaded with three first round picks, it is not likely they would have the budget to sign three guys at $1.5 million or more.

Great stuff - thanks for the info.

Jjav829
01-14-2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
The Sox did the right thing in not offering arbitration to Alomar and Everett. If the Sox offered arbitration, both players would have gladly accepted and the Sox would have been stuck with them. On the surface that would not be so bad, but there are salary implications the Sox (nor any team) would be willing to deal with.

Arbitration rules prevent a club from offering less than a salary equal to a 20% paycut from what the player earned the previous season.

Under that scenario, Everett would have earned a minimum of $7.32 million for 2004. Realistically, I don't see how an arbitrator would make him take a 20% paycut based on last season. More likely, since Carl had a very good season, he would have gotten a modest raise, leaving the Sox on the hook for roughly $10 million for Carl. There is no way any club would pay him that, which is evident by him only getting $7 million for TWO seasons with Montreal.

Alomar would have received a minimum of $6.4 million. Again way too much. I would hope everyone would agree to that.

The bottom line is the right decision was made on those two guys.

I agree there is no way they should have offered arbitration. I'm not sure if there was ever any definitive information brought up on this, but did Kenny even try to get Carl to come to an agreement where they would offer him arbitration and he would agree to decline so they could talk until Jan 8? I know there was speculation that that could happen, but I never heard anything about whether KW actually brought that up to Carl. Is he did I wouldn't be surprised if Carl said no. I would think that he would have received more interest if he had no compensation attached to him than if he did. Then again, he did sign with the Expos, so maybe not...

Rex Hudler
01-14-2004, 03:53 PM
but did Kenny even try to get Carl to come to an agreement where they would offer him arbitration and he would agree to decline so they could talk until Jan 8?

Even in that situation, I don't believe the Sox could have signed him to less than $7.32 million for this year. Once arbitration is offered, I believe that is set. Even if that were not the case, why would Everett agree to do that? That would be usurping the rules negotiated by his own union. If the Sox were willing to give him a multi-year deal or pay him the $7.32 million, he may have agree to do it. Otherwise, he would be stupid to do such a thing even if it were allowed.


The one way to get around that as Cleveland did with someone is, put the guy on waivers and if he clears send him to the minors. This could only be done with someone in the 3-6 years service time range and not with a vet like Everett. I believe there are even restrictions on a multi-year deal that would protect the player from losing too much.

Dadawg_77
01-14-2004, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler

The one way to get around that as Cleveland did with someone is, put the guy on waivers and if he clears send him to the minors. This could only be done with someone in the 3-6 years service time range and not with a vet like Everett. I believe there are even restrictions on a multi-year deal that would protect the player from losing too much.

Not sure that is legal. I know the union filled a grievance on that.

Hangar18
01-14-2004, 04:39 PM
so they pick 32, 40 and 69. but what Slot are they in
for the 1st Round ? Got to be pretty high I would think ?

Thanks for the info Rex, DaDawg

Randar68
01-14-2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
so they pick 32, 40 and 69. but what Slot are they in
for the 1st Round ? Got to be pretty high I would think ?

Thanks for the info Rex, DaDawg

The compensation picks the White Sox receive in addition to their own picks are:

32(Colon), 40(Gordon), 53(Colon), and 69(Gordon).

The White Sox select 18th in each round, IIRC.

ma-gaga
01-14-2004, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Not sure that is legal. I know the union filled a grievance on that.

You are correct. Cleveland's GM acquiesed, rather than fight the MLBPA. So that player (Baez) was declared a FA this year. Cleveland could have resigned him, but he wasn't their exclusive property anymore.

He signed with the D-Rays and blasted (http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/107329868082041.xml) Cleveland's management.

:) Warms my heart.