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View Full Version : 5 greatest players to wear the Sox uni?


Bisco Stu
01-14-2004, 01:44 AM
Note this is just the 5 best players who played for the Sox at some point, not the 5 greatest players in Sox franchise history.

For example, the greatest player to ever wear an Expos uni is Pete Rose.


1. Tom Terrific

2. Big Hurt

3. Pudge Fisk

4. Lefty Carlton

5. Shoeless Joe

doublem23
01-14-2004, 01:48 AM
1. Joe Jackson
2. Frank Thomas
3. Tom Seaver
4. Ed Walsh
5. Steve Carlton

longshot7
01-14-2004, 01:49 AM
Eddie Collins

Billy Pierce

HITMEN OF 77
01-14-2004, 01:56 AM
IMO the greatest in no particular order....

Luke Appling
Frank Thomas
Luis Aparicio
Ted Lyons
Harold Baines

CubKilla
01-14-2004, 02:06 AM
No Sammy Sosa? He saved baseball!

jabrch
01-14-2004, 07:23 AM
Frank

Appling

Seaver

Carlton

Jackson

and Sammy does, sadly, have to be a runner up.

Deadguy
01-14-2004, 09:05 AM
1. Eddie Collins
2. Frank Thomas
3. Luke Appling
4. Joe Jackson
5. Al Simmons

Baby Fisk
01-14-2004, 09:07 AM
Shoeless Joe
The Big Hurt
Pudge Fisk
Ed Walsh (what was his nickname again? Something about being a songwriter, wasn't it?)
Wilber Wood! (totally biased choice over Tom Seaver)

fquaye149
01-14-2004, 09:15 AM
all have been good so far...

but don't leave tim raines off

SSN721
01-14-2004, 09:41 AM
I would have to throw Eddie Cicotte on there as well, overlooking 1919 he was still a fabulous pitcher. Just a personal favorite of mine.

Dadawg_77
01-14-2004, 10:03 AM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/leaders_bat.shtml


That may help some.

Dadawg_77
01-14-2004, 10:05 AM
Also no love for Minnie orTed Lyons?

idseer
01-14-2004, 10:13 AM
1. frank thomas

2. steve carlton

3. al simmons

4. luke appling

5. eddie collins

honorable mention - walt dropo

doublem23
01-14-2004, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Also no love for Minnie orTed Lyons?

Well, we only have 5 spots to work with. That's a pretty elite group considering the Sox have been around for over a century.

IronFisk
01-14-2004, 10:34 AM
Ron Santo

John Kruk

Jose Canseco

David Wells

Chris Sabo


:chunks

ssang
01-14-2004, 10:36 AM
For a franchise that's been around for over 100 years....our top 5 players of all-time are ABSOLUTLEY PATHETIC!! I'm sorry but it's the plain truth.

doublem23
01-14-2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by ssang
For a franchise that's been around for over 100 years....our top 5 players of all-time are ABSOLUTLEY PATHETIC!! I'm sorry but it's the plain truth.

The guy who Babe Ruth modeled his swing after? Maybe the most dominant right-handed hitter of all time? The all-time career ERA leader (at 1.82)?

Man, sorry we're not the Yankees.

IronFisk
01-14-2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by ssang
For a franchise that's been around for over 100 years....our top 5 players of all-time are ABSOLUTLEY PATHETIC!! I'm sorry but it's the plain truth.

Hey, my choices were in teal bub!

KingXerxes
01-14-2004, 11:13 AM
Steve Carlton
Eddie Collins
Carlton Fisk
Tom Seaver
Al Simmons

vegyrex
01-14-2004, 12:40 PM
Frank Thomas
Joe Jackson
Carlton Fisk
Ed Walsh
Ted Lyons

Brian26
01-14-2004, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
1. Eddie Collins
2. Frank Thomas
3. Luke Appling
4. Joe Jackson
5. Al Simmons

4 guys none of us ever saw play. I hate lists like this without some type of reference to time. How about the greatest 5 since 1970?

voodoochile
01-14-2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
How about the greatest 5 since 1970?

Frank Thomas
Haaarold Baines
Carlton Fisk
Albert belle
Tie:Buehrle and Blackjack

HM:Magglio Ordonez, Robin Ventura

I won't list Seaver, Carlton or Dick Allen because they weren't here long enough.

Brian26
01-14-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I won't list Seaver, Carlton or Dick Allen because they weren't here long enough.

Hehe. Doesn't matter. They wore the Sox uni at one time.

My top five since '70:

1. Frank
2. Seaver
3. Carlton
4. Fisk
5. Allen

Baby Fisk
01-14-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I won't list Seaver, Carlton or Dick Allen because they weren't here long enough.

vegyrex
01-14-2004, 01:05 PM
Frank Thomas
Jack McDowell
Carlton Fisk
Dick Allen
Bill Melton

Tekijawa
01-14-2004, 01:15 PM
Don't forget about these two

Michael Jordan

Jack Parkman

E Coast Sox Fan
01-14-2004, 01:30 PM
What about Nellie and Luis?

fogie
01-14-2004, 01:55 PM
1 Ed Walch
2 Frank Thomas
3 Ted Lyons
4 Luke Appling
5 Red Faber

misty60481
01-14-2004, 03:08 PM
1- Fats Fothergill ( good hitter)
2-Fat Pat Seerey ( 4 homers in game )
3-Frankie (Blimp ) Hayes (All-Star team )
4-Smead Jolley ( 3 errors on 1 play )
5-Art ( The Great ) Shires ( hvywgt. champ of league )

just kidding

1-Ed Walsh
2-Joe Jackson
3-Luke Appling
4-Billy Pierce
5-Frank Thomas

Try all time team by position

ssang
01-14-2004, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
The guy who Babe Ruth modeled his swing after? Maybe the most dominant right-handed hitter of all time? The all-time career ERA leader (at 1.82)?

Man, sorry we're not the Yankees.


If you're refering to Frank Thomas as maybe the greatest right-handed hitter of all-time I SERIOUSLY beg to differ. Maybe 6 or 7 years ago IF he kept up pace you could MAYBE say he was one of the best right handed hitters of all-time. Now though.....No way. Any guy who admits that he's only swinging for the fences and doesn't care about hitting to the opposite field anymore and pops out more than 1/2 the time automatically is eliminated from am all-time great conversation.

ode to veeck
01-14-2004, 03:38 PM
I have a hard time thinking Minnie doesn't makes it on either list all-time and 1970+, since he did play aftre 1970 if I'm not mistaken. He had many great years of play in his youth before he was even allowed in the majors.

Post 1970 only, Dick Allen has to be there, I don't think I ever saw a human hit a line drive harder, ever.

Mr Bartman deserves honorable mention, though he never wore the Sox uniform

RKMeibalane
01-14-2004, 03:48 PM
1. Frank Thomas
2. Joe Jackson
3. Luke Appling
4. Carlton Fisk
5. Billy Pierce

:hitless

"Why am I not on the list?"

:ohno

"A better question would be, 'why are you still in baseball?'"

Deadguy
01-14-2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
4 guys none of us ever saw play. I hate lists like this without some type of reference to time. How about the greatest 5 since 1970?

I saw Shoeless Joe in Field of Dreams the other night, and Eddie Collins looked like a great player in Eight Men Out

PaleHoseGeorge
01-14-2004, 07:40 PM
:hitless
"I set a fielding record that will probably last forever!"

:ohno
"And you did it while wearing gym shoes in the dugout."

:jerry
"Getting Royce his ice cream was especially difficult last season with him being in Milwaukee and all."

ode to veeck
01-14-2004, 07:50 PM
:hitless "gym shoes are better for ducking out of the way on those hot grounders"

MRKARNO
01-14-2004, 08:03 PM
The truth is that Sammy sosa does belong on one of these lists. Say all you want about him, but when he is done with baseball, he will be top 5 in career home runs most likely. I hate him, but he's still a pretty good player.

Daver
01-14-2004, 09:20 PM
Chris Snopek
Steve Sax
Craig Grebeck
Mike Lavallierre
Poppy Hidalgo

fquaye149
01-14-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
The truth is that Sammy sosa does belong on one of these lists. Say all you want about him, but when he is done with baseball, he will be top 5 in career home runs most likely. I hate him, but he's still a pretty good player.

sammy sosa will not have been a better ball player than carlton, seaver, shoeless, frank, and fisk...

but he deserves mentioning if harold baines is mentioned, that's for sure

duke of dorwood
01-14-2004, 09:32 PM
Joe Jackson

Frank Thomas

Luke Appling

Ed Walsh

Bobby Bonds

Brian26
01-14-2004, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Chris Snopek
Steve Sax
Craig Grebeck
Mike Lavallierre
Poppy Hidalgo

I will always have a soft spot in my Sox heart for Grebeck and Sax. Grebeck, moreso, for that unbelievable performance against Nolan Ryan with the two dingers, in addition to just being such a great hard-nosed player (the Tony G of the early 90's, if you will). Sax had a so-so career with the Sox, but how can you ever forget that unfrickinbelievable catch he made in leftfield at County Stadium in '93?

Snopek and Spanky were pretty forgetable, though.

Joel Perez
01-14-2004, 09:40 PM
IMO:

1) Shoeless Joe Jackson

2) Frank Thomas

3) Harold Baines

4) Nellie Fox

5) Carlton Fisk

If you are asking my favorite top 5:

1) Robin Ventura

2) Harold Baines

3) Frank Thomas

4) Carlton Fisk

5) BlackJack McDowell

Hangar18
01-14-2004, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
Don't forget about these two

Michael Jordan

Jack Parkman

LMAO What I love about Jordan, he hit that 2-run Double
off the Flubbies !! that was excellent!

Hangar18
01-14-2004, 10:32 PM
Chris Sabo
Adam Peterson
Slimolay Barojas
Kenny Williams
Juan Disgusto

Brian26
01-14-2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Juan Disgusto

God did I hate Agosto. He was a bum.

Brian26
01-14-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
LMAO What I love about Jordan, he hit that 2-run Double
off the Flubbies !! that was excellent!

The weakest, luckiest 2-run double in the history of baseball, but it did the job. :D:

MarkEdward
01-14-2004, 10:56 PM
Where's the love for Eddie Collins? He's arguably the best second baseman ever. Anyway, I'd take...
Eddie Collins
Frank Thomas
Steve Carlton (I was surprised to see that he actually pitched well for the Sox)
Tom Seaver
Goose Gossage

Honorable mentions to Luke Appling, Joe Jackson (he'd be in my top five if it weren't for the whole World Series thing), Ed Walsh, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Tim Raines.

1951Campbell
01-14-2004, 11:05 PM
I timidly ask this of all the Frank-haters...

Do you think his name showed up in this thread so many times by accident? I'm just sayin' is all...

1951Campbell
01-14-2004, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by Joel Perez
IMO:

1) Shoeless Joe Jackson

2) Frank Thomas

3) Harold Baines

4) Nellie Fox

5) Carlton Fisk

If you are asking my favorite top 5:

1) Robin Ventura

2) Harold Baines

3) Frank Thomas

4) Carlton Fisk

5) BlackJack McDowell

C'mon...give a little more pitching!

idseer
01-14-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by 1951Campbell
I timidly ask this of all the Frank-haters...

Do you think his name showed up in this thread so many times by accident? I'm just sayin' is all...

i gladly answer as i have been accused of being a frank hater.

do you think the frank haters think frank was never any good?
i haven't heard anyone make the claim that frank isn't one of the all-time great white sox. i suggest you don't understand the 'frank hater' argument.

LoveTheSox
01-15-2004, 12:06 AM
Someone beat me to Royce Clayton! Obviously he wa the GREATEST White Sox player EVER!!

:hitless
"That's right! I'm amazing!"

JDP
01-15-2004, 12:34 AM
Joe Jackson
Eddie Cicotte
Eddie Collins
Ed Walsh / Billy Pierce
Frank Thomas

Deadguy
01-15-2004, 09:25 AM
:walnuts
"Hey, where's the love for me? I thought I was Chicago's Golden Boy. How could you people forget my All Star appearance...or the fact that..I...um...finished in the top 10 in the league in getting hit by pitches in 2000? Not even the great Frank Thomas could do that."

DirtySouthsider
01-15-2004, 10:15 AM
What about Albert Belle??? Is he worthy, even though he was a horse's ass?

ode to veeck
01-15-2004, 10:40 AM
Let's make this thread more interesting, how about some heads up comparisons ... at least between hitters and hitters and pitchers vs pitchers

Mark Edwards makes a great point on including Eddie Collins, a guy with 3300+ hits, 700+ SB, and .333 career BA --- a decent comparison in from early- mid century era would be to Luke Appling w/ 2700+ hits, .310 BA. They're close on RBI and HRs, but Luke's "only" got 179 SB and .399 OBP vs Luke's .424, all very solid numbers. What about qualitative attributes?

I think Harold fails by comparison to these two guys, while Minnie Minoso's MLB numbers, just under 2000 hits, .298 BA, .389 OBP, and 200 SB, could be arguably compromised by his not playing his 1st full season in the previously all white MLB until age 28 with the Sox in '51 when he HR'd in 1st Sox AB vs Yanks and lead the league in SB his 1st three years ('51-'53), putting the Go-Go in the Go-Go Sox. Previously, he had starred with the NY Cubans in the negro league since '46, where he lead them to the blackk WS title in '47 and averaged over .300 BA.

Interestingly, Harold's and Minnie's MLB BA both took a big drop off around age 40, though Minnie extended his career after the practical end to his MLB days by playing another nine seasons in the Mexican leagues, hitting .360 and .348 his first 2 years, then closing out with a .265 BA in '73 at age 50. He also played stellar winter ball for nine seasons in Cuba from '45 - '54.

Harold's 384 HR numbers stand out among this group on the power chart vs the 186 of Minoso's, the next closest.

When you examine Minnie's role as dominant team leader and spark plug as lead off man and central run production for the Sox and Cubans in the 40s and 50s, then Eddie "Cocky" Collins 744 career SB vs Minnie's 205, really stands out among these guys. In fact, Eddie is 7th on the all-time list, and 3rd all time for the pre-1950 era (surpassed by only Ty Cobb and "Sliding Billy" Hamilton).

ssang
01-15-2004, 10:53 AM
5. Albert Belle
4. Wilson Alvarez
3. Tim Raines
2. Robin Ventura
1. Bo Jackson

KingXerxes
01-15-2004, 11:03 AM
A definite shortage of "Al Simmons" listings methinks.

idseer
01-15-2004, 11:07 AM
i think most people definitely didn't understand the original post.

Deadguy
01-15-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck

Mark Edwards makes a great point on including Eddie Collins, a guy with 3300+ hits, 700+ SB, and .333 career BA --- a decent comparison in from early- mid century era would be to Luke Appling w/ 2700+ hits, .310 BA. They're close on RBI and HRs, but Luke's "only" got 179 SB and .399 OBP vs Luke's .424, all very solid numbers. What about qualitative attributes?


I agree. In the context of this thread, Eddie Collins is far and away the best player to ever wear a White Sox uniform, even though his best years were with the Philadelphia Athletics.

Deadguy
01-15-2004, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
What about Albert Belle??? Is he worthy, even though he was a horse's ass?

Depends on how we're judging the player's "value". I'm assuming career value, over peak value, which is why I left him off the list. If he had played through his last contract, he'd probably be worthy of it.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-15-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
The weakest, luckiest 2-run double in the history of baseball, but it did the job. :D:

Yep. Michael Jordan beat the Cubs. That outfit is so ****ed up, they probably had Craig Ehlo on the mound.

Lovable Losers, indeed.

:bandance:

StepsInSC
01-15-2004, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by ssang
5. Albert Belle
4. Wilson Alvarez
3. Tim Raines
2. Robin Ventura
1. Bo Jackson


:?: Is this part of the 'since 1970 section'??

And how are any of them above Frank?

idseer
01-15-2004, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by ssang
5. Albert Belle
4. Wilson Alvarez
3. Tim Raines
2. Robin Ventura
1. Bo Jackson


ok ... let's see. you have magglio ordonez, frank thomas, dick allen, minnie minoso, ritchie zisk, bobby bonds, harold baines, carlton fisk, greg luzinski, don kessinger, luis aparicio, bobby bonilla, george foster, sammy sosa, lance johnson, ellis burks, julio franco, rubin sierra and roberto alomar to choose from .....

and you have bo jackson on your list? :?: :?:

RKMeibalane
01-15-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
:?: Is this part of the 'since 1970 section'??

And how are any of them above Frank?

I agree. None of those guys are even close to Frank in terms of their significance in White Sox history. The Frank-haters are getting desperate again. As the season draws near, it's looking more and more like Frank will be playing first base this season. That is something that the 'haters don't want to see, because it means that Frank will put up MVP numbers.

idseer
01-15-2004, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I agree. None of those guys are even close to Frank in terms of their significance in White Sox history. The Frank-haters are getting desperate again. As the season draws near, it's looking more and more like Frank will be playing first base this season. That is something that the 'haters don't want to see, because it means that Frank will put up MVP numbers.

when you talk about frank haters, i assume you mean white sox fans. do you really think a white sox fan doesn't want someone putting up mvp-type numbers for the team?

someday we're going to have to have a discussion about exactly what a frank hater is because it's not making a lot of sense to me. as a starter, do you feel that if a sox fan wants frank traded in hopes of bettering the team ... they're automatically a frank hater?

RKMeibalane
01-15-2004, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by idseer
when you talk about frank haters, i assume you mean white sox fans. do you really think a white sox fan doesn't want someone putting up mvp-type numbers for the team?

someday we're going to have to have a discussion about exactly what a frank hater is because it's not making a lot of sense to me. as a starter, do you feel that if a sox fan wants frank traded in hopes of bettering the team ... they're automatically a frank hater?

To answer your questions...

1. No, I do not think someone is a Frank-hater if they think trading Frank will make the team better, or they have legitimate reasons for believing that his performance is hurting the team.

2. I do, however, think someone is a Frank-hater when he goes out of his way to slam the big man for no other reason than to start an argument.

3. I also think someone is a Frank-hater if he cannot logically admit that Frank is one of the greatest players in White Sox history. This business of people excluding Frank from their "top-five" lists is an example. I can understand not liking Frank. That's each fan's choice. But to so biased against the Big Hurt that it clouds one's judgement is where I draw the line between a 'hater and a non-hater.

4. And yes, it is possible for somoene to be both a Frank-hater and a White Sox fan.

chisoxfan79
01-15-2004, 10:36 PM
In my lifetime which is only in the 80's and 90's I would have to say

Frank Thomas
Maggilo Ordonez
Carlton Fisk
Bo Jackson (I know he was only a DH)
Robin Ventura

StepsInSC
01-15-2004, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by idseer
when you talk about frank haters, i assume you mean white sox fans. do you really think a white sox fan doesn't want someone putting up mvp-type numbers for the team?

someday we're going to have to have a discussion about exactly what a frank hater is because it's not making a lot of sense to me. as a starter, do you feel that if a sox fan wants frank traded in hopes of bettering the team ... they're automatically a frank hater?

I totally understand your point.

But look at ssang's list, how is that justified?

SluggersAway
01-16-2004, 12:24 AM
Joe Jackson was the best.

stat-heads back me up...

idseer
01-16-2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
I totally understand your point.

But look at ssang's list, how is that justified?

i don't know how ssang feels about thomas. but if leaving him off the list means he's a frank hater .... then he also hates the 18 other guys i mentioned in one of my posts here. i would have guessed he just picked his personal favorites instead of 'bests'. why ELSE would he choose bo jackson???

Brian26
01-16-2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by chisoxfan79
In my lifetime which is only in the 80's and 90's I would have to say

Frank Thomas
Maggilo Ordonez
Carlton Fisk
Bo Jackson (I know he was only a DH)
Robin Ventura

Bo's a great pick. Man, I wonder what kind of career he could have had without the hip injury. Of course, without the injury he probably would have never been picked up by the Sox. It was a hell of a PR move at the time though.

idseer
01-16-2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by SluggersAway
Joe Jackson was the best.

stat-heads back me up...

at the risk of much wrath .... i believe joe jackson is over-rated in this forum.
don't confuse this statement with 'not good'.

no doubt he was a hitter ... but not so great anywhere else as far as i can determine. as an outfielder he either stunk or was pretty average ( hard to determine without comparing all fielders of his day. i know gloves were worse etc. but for an outfielder his .962% is terrible by todays standards .. regardless what '8 men out' claims.)
he played 9 full seasons (and very small parts of 4 others .. less than 50 games total). he averaged 83 rbi, 5 hr's, had no mvp's, lead the league in hits only twice and obp once. incidently, he NEVER lead the league in batting average!
other than .356 lifetime ... what is so great about joe jackson?

and how was he the best compared to frank thomas? or any number of other sox players?

Brian26
01-16-2004, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by idseer
and how was he the best compared to frank thomas? or any number of other sox players?

It's just so hard to compare guys from that era with guys since 1950 or 1970. The ball is different, ballparks are different, players are different. The ultimate question is this: How would Joe Jackson do if he got in a time machine and played on the 2004 Sox? I bet we'd be lucky if he put Jeff Abbott type numbers up.

Deadguy
01-16-2004, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by SluggersAway
Joe Jackson was the best.

stat-heads back me up...

I don't know what stats you are referring to, but sabermetrics favor Eddie Collins as far as peak value and career value by a longshot. It's not even really close.

Deadguy
01-16-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Brian26
It's just so hard to compare guys from that era with guys since 1950 or 1970. The ball is different, ballparks are different, players are different. The ultimate question is this: How would Joe Jackson do if he got in a time machine and played on the 2004 Sox? I bet we'd be lucky if he put Jeff Abbott type numbers up.

The only fair way to judge players is how they performed in comparison to league averages or in the context of their era.

StepsInSC
01-16-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i don't know how ssang feels about thomas. but if leaving him off the list means he's a frank hater .... then he also hates the 18 other guys i mentioned in one of my posts here. i would have guessed he just picked his personal favorites instead of 'bests'. why ELSE would he choose bo jackson???

I don't know if he's a Frank hater, but like you said he skipped over a ton of other players for people like Wilson Alvarez. That was what I was wondering about.

idseer
01-16-2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
The only fair way to judge players is how they performed in comparison to league averages or in the context of their era.

i absolutely agree. that's why i mentioned things like his mvps, batting average championships etc. he looked ok ... certainly not great!

Dadawg_77
01-16-2004, 10:35 AM
In this order

1> Frank Thomas
2> Luke Appling
3> Eddie Collins
4> Ed Walsh
5> Carlton Fisk

Nick@Nite
01-16-2004, 11:34 AM
1. Ralph Garr
2. Nyls Nyman
3. Charlie Sheen... er, I mean Happy Felsch
4. Bo
5. MJ... yes, THAT MJ -- Mike Joyce

MisterB
01-16-2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by idseer
i absolutely agree. that's why i mentioned things like his mvps, batting average championships etc. he looked ok ... certainly not great!

Jackson played 9 full seasons.
He was top 5 in batting average in 7 seasons (just behind Ty Cobb most of the time) and 7th in one other.
Career BA is 3rd all-time behind Cobb and Tris Speaker (who were playing at the same time)
He was top 5 in OBP in 7 of them, at least 7th in all 9.
Top 5 in slugging% in all 9.
Top 3 in hits in 6 (led league twice)
Top 10 in RBI in 8.
His lifetime fielding percentage as an OF was .962. OF of that era averaged .958.
As a RF for Cleveland from '11-'13 collected 90 OF assists, ranking 3rd in the league each of those years.

Were Jackson eligible, he'd be a borderline HoF candidate mostly due to his relatively short career (his closest contemporaries, Cobb and Speaker, both played 20+ years). But then again his career was short for the same reason he's ineligible. He had the bad luck of being 3rd best hitter in the AL behind 2 future HoFers.

162g averages - Jackson, Speaker, Cobb
BA: .356, .345, .366
OBP: .423, .428, .433
SLG: .517, .500, .512
RBI: 95, 89, 103

Paulwny
01-16-2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i absolutely agree. that's why i mentioned things like his mvps, batting average championships etc. he looked ok ... certainly not great!

From the book - Shoeless Joe and Ragtime Baseball

" Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth and Tris Speaker all named Joe Jackson the greatest natural hitter of all time."

idseer
01-16-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
From the book - Shoeless Joe and Ragtime Baseball

" Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth and Tris Speaker all named Joe Jackson the greatest natural hitter of all time."

first of all, if that's true ... and i seriously question it ... all time for them meant 25 30 years? and the term 'greatest natural hitter' means what exactly? it sure doesn't mean greatest hitter!

again, i know he was a great hitter. but the original question was "who were the 5 greatest players to wear a white sox uniform'. and i don't think he qualifies. too bad he had his career cut short. but al simmons, for instance, beats him all to hell!
as do several others. just my opinion. :smile:

Paulwny
01-16-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by idseer
first of all, if that's true ... and i seriously question it ... all time for them meant 25 30 years? and the term 'greatest natural hitter' means what exactly? it sure doesn't mean greatest hitter!

again, i know he was a great hitter. but the original question was "who were the 5 greatest players to wear a white sox uniform'. and i don't think he qualifies. too bad he had his career cut short. but al simmons, for instance, beats him all to hell!
as do several others. just my opinion. :smile:

Are you questioning me or the book?

idseer
01-16-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Are you questioning me or the book?

the book of course. first, the fact it's a book about joe jackson there's an immediate conflict of interest.

i have heard the statement before but only that babe ruth said it.
even if he did it doesn't impress me all that much. so the babe threw a compliment his way. let's not make it sound like a gospel truth.

those old stories have a way of being restructured through the years. how about 'say it ain't so, joe'? i've read where it was made up by some writer. it couldn't be verified. writers make up all sorts of crap lies.



and by the way ........ 1000! :bandance:

shouldn't 1000 be something like ... SUPER personality?
it just seems 1000 should require a change in status somehow. :smile:

Paulwny
01-16-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by idseer
the book of course. first, the fact it's a book about joe jackson there's an immediate conflict of interest.

i have heard the statement before but only that babe ruth said it.
even if he did it doesn't impress me all that much. so the babe threw a compliment his way. let's not make it sound like a gospel truth.



How about a Sporting News interview with Ted Williams were Williams lists Jackson as 8th best hitter in a list of 20 ?

idseer
01-16-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
How about a Sporting News interview with Ted Williams were Williams lists Jackson as 8th best hitter in a list of 20 ?

well ... williams never saw him play for one thing. but even so i have no problem with it. i admitted he was a great hitter. but again ... in his era that stood out whereas if you really looked at 'all-time hitters' taking into account all the changes in the game i don't think he'd stand out very much. maybe he'd be more likened to a george brett (just grabbing a name) hitting-wise without the longevity. or maybe wade boggs
and while i think they were great they was nowhere near the greatest.

ssang
01-16-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by idseer
ok ... let's see. you have magglio ordonez, frank thomas, dick allen, minnie minoso, ritchie zisk, bobby bonds, harold baines, carlton fisk, greg luzinski, don kessinger, luis aparicio, bobby bonilla, george foster, sammy sosa, lance johnson, ellis burks, julio franco, rubin sierra and roberto alomar to choose from .....

and you have bo jackson on your list? :?: :?:

My rankings

5. Albert Belle
4. Wilson Alvarez
3. Tim Raines
2. Robin Ventura
1. Bo Jackson ........................................are obviously not serious.

I didn't think I needed Teal but I guess I was wrong. C'mon people, I'd have to possess an extra chromosone to truly make this my top 5 ranking of Greatest Sox' players ever.

ssang
01-16-2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by ssang
My rankings

5. Albert Belle
4. Wilson Alvarez
3. Tim Raines
2. Robin Ventura
1. Bo Jackson ........................................are obviously not serious.

I didn't think I needed Teal but I guess I was wrong. C'mon people, I'd have to possess an extra chromosone to truly make this my top 5 ranking of Greatest Sox' players ever.

Once again...my list....not serious.

idseer
01-16-2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by ssang
My rankings

5. Albert Belle
4. Wilson Alvarez
3. Tim Raines
2. Robin Ventura
1. Bo Jackson ........................................are obviously not serious.

I didn't think I needed Teal but I guess I was wrong. C'mon people, I'd have to possess an extra chromosone to truly make this my top 5 ranking of Greatest Sox' players ever.

ok, but it wasn't obvious at all.

at one point someone asked about since 1970 and it's not like your list contains bad players.

sorry i didn't get it.

ssang
01-16-2004, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by idseer
ok, but it wasn't obvious at all.

at one point someone asked about since 1970 and it's not like your list contains bad players.

sorry i didn't get it.

No biggie. I just wanted to make it clear that this list was NOT what I really thought.

tlebar318
01-16-2004, 11:37 PM
1) Jack McDowell (if he stayed healthy)

2)Harold Baines (the man!)

3)Carlton Fisk ( I am only 38 and NEVER in the shape he was at 40)

4)Maggs (Might be gone but appreciate him nonetheless)

5)Hoyt(nose candy was a problem--great pitcher)

I think Lamarr really messed up his career and I did not mention my 70's favorites such as Bucky Dent and Wayne Nordhagen!

Beer Me! :gulp: