PDA

View Full Version : Clemens+Astros= 2nd place cubs


depy48
01-12-2004, 12:42 PM
Clemens signed a one year $5million deal. So this is going to kill Cub fans, i love this signing!
Clemens-Pettite-Oswalt-Miller-Redding
thats a good staff!

FanOf14
01-12-2004, 12:42 PM
As long as the Cubs don't sign Maddux, Ill agree with the first post.

habibharu
01-12-2004, 12:47 PM
clemens signs 1 years 5 mil deal. damn. oswalt,miller,pettite,clemens

Mammoo
01-12-2004, 12:48 PM
...just went up.

Jim Hendry will go after him hard now. He must keep up with the Astros!

Poor KW...what he could do with a decent budget!!! :(:

Soxdude
01-12-2004, 12:49 PM
Clemens Info (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1706367)

CHISOXFAN13
01-12-2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by depy48
Clemens signed a one year $5million deal. So this is going to kill Cub fans, i love this signing!
Clemens-Pettite-Oswalt-Miller-Redding
thats a good staff!

I'd be willing to bet the Cubs sign Madduz and Pudge now.

Looks like the NL Central has the upper-hand for the wild card.

Foulke You
01-12-2004, 01:15 PM
Wow. Houston has just nabbed arguably the #1 and #2 best pitchers from last year's American League Champion Yankees. Thank God someone is going for it in the NL Central besides the Cubs. Perhaps Pettite and Clemens can use that "Yankee Magic" to keep the Cubs out of post season play. Aside from the Angels, I think Houston has had the most productive offseason.

:KW
Have I mentioned how versatile Juan Uribe is?

SoxxoS
01-12-2004, 01:17 PM
Cubs are still the favorite, according to Las Vegas. Actually, they are the BIGGEST favorite to win their division in baseball.

Grobber33
01-12-2004, 01:19 PM
Be careful what you wish for! The Rocket was hit hard plenty this past season,even in cozy Yankee Stadium(including Aug 26 by the Sox). He wont have Rivera--or Wagner for that matter to save games for him,and 'Bankrupt' Ballpark in Houston is a major ban box. Pop flys to left or right that sail into the seats will drive Clemens and Pettitt nuts. Also,I'll predict now that Jimy Williams will get into it with both of those guys. Williams is'nt the most likeable fellow,,,unlike Torre. Should be interestsing.
As for Maddux,the advantage the Cubs would have in signing him would be that they could demote or trade Zambrano and keep Cruz in the minors(or find some sucker to take him in a trade like Schuler got the Brewers to take Navarro in 2000 which helped Dean Taylor get run out of Brew Town).
Zambrano and Cruz are both scarry!!!

Northside fan
01-12-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by depy48
Clemens signed a one year $5million deal. So this is going to kill Cub fans, i love this signing!
Clemens-Pettite-Oswalt-Miller-Redding
thats a good staff!

It is a good staff but it still does not give them the edge.

Prior/Oswaldt. Edge- slight/moderate Cubs Oswaldt is real good but Prior is on the verge of greatness.

Wood/Clemens. Edge- Moderate Cubs. Wood is 26, Clemens is 41.

Zambrano/Pettitte. Edge- slight Astros. Andy has pitched in the series while Zambrano is still a pup and he tends to let his emotions get the best of him.

Clement/Miller. Edge slight Astros. Clement is either lights out or bad. Same can be said for Miller.

Crux/Maddux????/Robertson. As of now, even. Should the Cubs sign Maddux, huge edge to the Cubs.

BP. Even.
Lineup. Slight Cubs.

Advantage..Slight Cubs.

depy48
01-12-2004, 01:24 PM
I dont believe that Zambrano will be half as good as he was in 2003. This guy pitched more innings than anyone imagined. Why does everyone think that Zambrano is going to be so good? The only reason people think he's good is because he's surrounded by prior and wood. I'm telling you, dont look to Zambrano for good things. I gurantee he WILL disapoint. I rather have Garland than Zambrano.

Northside fan
01-12-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by depy48

I rather have Garland than Zambrano. [/B]


I think you would be in the minority on that one.

Lip Man 1
01-12-2004, 01:35 PM
I think it's a sad commentary on the Sox state of affairs when fans take more pleasure of out a signing made by another team in another league then any signings their own team made.

Just call em the South Milwaukee White Sox.

Lip

Foulke You
01-12-2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Be careful what you wish for! The Rocket was hit hard plenty this past season,even in cozy Yankee Stadium(including Aug 26 by the Sox). He wont have Rivera--or Wagner for that matter to save games for him,and 'Bankrupt' Ballpark in Houston is a major ban box. Pop flys to left or right that sail into the seats will drive Clemens and Pettitt nuts. Also,I'll predict now that Jimy Williams will get into it with both of those guys. Williams is'nt the most likeable fellow,,,unlike Torre. Should be interestsing.
As for Maddux,the advantage the Cubs would have in signing him would be that they could demote or trade Zambrano and keep Cruz in the minors(or find some sucker to take him in a trade like Schuler got the Brewers to take Navarro in 2000 which helped Dean Taylor get run out of Brew Town).
Zambrano and Cruz are both scarry!!!

Sorry Grobber, I'm not buying the Cubs fan theory that I keep hearing telling me that Pettite and Clemens won't be able to survive in Houston's launching pad. The championship rings these guys have are a testament to their ability as pitchers. Both guys pitched in arguably one of the toughest divisions in baseball and their teams played 19 games a piece against two of the more high powered offenses in the AL (Boston and Toronto). Now all of the sudden, they are going to crumble against the trio of potential NL Central 100 game losers Brewers, Reds, and Pirates whom the Astros play 19 times? I'm not buying it. In fact, one could make the argument that having the "freebie" out (pitcher batting) in the National League instead of seeing DHs could actually see an IMPROVEMENT in Clemens and Pettite's numbers.

I'm not discounting the Cubs chances, they have themselves a good team there. I'm just saying that Clemens is a significant addition to an already improved Astros rotation and I think Cubs fans appear to be discounting the addition of two longtime NY Yankee rotation anchors. If I were I Cubs fan, I'm considerably more worried today than I was yesterday.

Mammoo
01-12-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I think it's a sad commentary on the Sox state of affairs when fans take more pleasure of out a signing made by another team in another league then any signings their own team made.



Well said.... :gulp:

Ender
01-12-2004, 02:20 PM
hey dont forget, the Chubs still have the curse

kittle42
01-12-2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I think it's a sad commentary on the Sox state of affairs when fans take more pleasure of out a signing made by another team in another league then any signings their own team made.

When there is nothing to directly make me happy, I must derive happiness from the possible misery of those I dislike.

vegyrex
01-12-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I think it's a sad commentary on the Sox state of affairs when fans take more pleasure of out a signing made by another team in another league then any signings their own team made.

Just call em the South Milwaukee White Sox.



I hope Kenny is enjoying his vacation. :(:

KingXerxes
01-12-2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I think it's a sad commentary on the Sox state of affairs when fans take more pleasure of out a signing made by another team in another league then any signings their own team made.

Just call em the South Milwaukee White Sox.

Lip

I agree Lip. The damning thing about all of this is that now the NL Central becomes "The Race" nationally. If people on these boards were fed up with Cubs coverage last year, close your eyes, sit back and think about the national (as well as local coverage) of a four game Cubs/Astros series in late August with Wood vs. Clemens, Prior vs. Pettite, Clement vs. Oswalt and Zambrano vs. Miller. We'll be lucky to even show up on media RADAR screens, hell you'll have more messages being posted about that series on these board than about the White Sox.

Mots09
01-12-2004, 03:19 PM
Let 's hope this will put the Astros over the top in the NLC

DSpivack
01-12-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
[Bhell you'll have more messages being posted about that series on these board than about the White Sox. [/B]

Which is terrible given all the excitement around the 2004 White Sox!

Frater Perdurabo
01-12-2004, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
Sorry Grobber, I'm not buying the Cubs fan theory that I keep hearing telling me that Pettite and Clemens won't be able to survive in Houston's launching pad. The championship rings these guys have are a testament to their ability as pitchers. Both guys pitched in arguably one of the toughest divisions in baseball and their teams played 19 games a piece against two of the more high powered offenses in the AL (Boston and Toronto). Now all of the sudden, they are going to crumble against the trio of potential NL Central 100 game losers Brewers, Reds, and Pirates whom the Astros play 19 times? I'm not buying it. In fact, one could make the argument that having the "freebie" out (pitcher batting) in the National League instead of seeing DHs could actually see an IMPROVEMENT in Clemens and Pettite's numbers.

I'm not discounting the Cubs chances, they have themselves a good team there. I'm just saying that Clemens is a significant addition to an already improved Astros rotation and I think Cubs fans appear to be discounting the addition of two longtime NY Yankee rotation anchors. If I were I Cubs fan, I'm considerably more worried today than I was yesterday.

I agree.

Hangar18
01-12-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
I think it's a sad commentary on the Sox state of affairs when fans take more pleasure of out a signing made by another team in another league then any signings their own team made.

Just call em the South Milwaukee White Sox.

Lip

Hhehh hehh. Good one lip

Hangar18
01-12-2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Ender
hey dont forget, the Chubs still have the curse

yes they do !!!! This is the One Wild Card the CUBS cannot
Address !!!! that makes me happy, and thats what will
make it Hurt Even More, should they Buy the Postseason

Hangar18
01-12-2004, 04:37 PM
Im laughing my A off right now, practically with tears in my eyes..........Why is this Team So Arse Backwards ???

DirtySouthsider
01-12-2004, 04:40 PM
Clemens may not be the great eveyday pitcher he once was but if you need a pitcher to pitch a big game I would love to have him on my side. He been there and done about evrything in this game and that counts for alot.

anewman35
01-12-2004, 05:13 PM
Kenny sucks! JR sucks! Why didn't they sign Clemens?!?!?!?

maurice
01-12-2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
The Rocket was hit hard plenty this past season,even in cozy Yankee Stadium

Interesting theory.

In 2003, Clemens was 17-9 with a 3.91 ERA, while primarily facing DH's in the AL instead of pitchers in the NL. In the post-season, his ERA was 3.52. In September, it was 3.30. It was 2.84 against the cub, 2.70 against the Cards, and 2.53 away from the absurdly short porch in "cozy Yankee Stadium." In fact, it looks like his cumulative 2003 ERA against NL clubs was somewhere around 2.00, but I'm sure he'll struggle against a steady diet of Brewers, Pirates, and Reds.

He wont have Rivera--or Wagner for that matter to save games for him

Octavio Dotel is pretty good too: 87 IP, 53 Hits, 97 SO, only 2 blown saves, .172 BAA, 0.97 WHIP, 2.48 ERA.

As for Maddux,the advantage the Cubs would have in signing him would be that they could demote or trade Zambrano

:?:

Zambrano was the second best starter on the vaunted 2003 cubs staff. He also was the youngest.

KingXerxes
01-12-2004, 05:15 PM
They were too tied up in negotiations with Jeff Fassero.

Baby Fisk
01-12-2004, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Kenny sucks! JR sucks! Why didn't they sign Clemens?!?!?!?
:KW
"He's not enough of a grinder."

:reinsy
"And he wanted to be paid! Money! Can you believe that?!"

jabrch
01-12-2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
Be careful what you wish for! The Rocket was hit hard plenty this past season,even in cozy Yankee Stadium(including Aug 26 by the Sox). He wont have Rivera--or Wagner for that matter to save games for him,and 'Bankrupt' Ballpark in Houston is a major ban box. Pop flys to left or right that sail into the seats will drive Clemens and Pettitt nuts. Also,I'll predict now that Jimy Williams will get into it with both of those guys. Williams is'nt the most likeable fellow,,,unlike Torre. Should be interestsing.
As for Maddux,the advantage the Cubs would have in signing him would be that they could demote or trade Zambrano and keep Cruz in the minors(or find some sucker to take him in a trade like Schuler got the Brewers to take Navarro in 2000 which helped Dean Taylor get run out of Brew Town).
Zambrano and Cruz are both scarry!!!

Les, what do you mean by scarry? Cruz is bad - just flat out bad. And Zambrano needs to have his head straight to be effective. When he gets overly excited, he throws too hard and it comes out flat. I don't see what Zambrano and Cruz have in common to be Scarry.

ChiWhiteSox1337
01-12-2004, 05:29 PM
the cubs only have the best odds in vegas because there's a bunch of morons who will bet on em. I was so happy when I came home today and saw the headline about Clemens. Too bad it wasn't for the White Sox

OEO Magglio
01-12-2004, 07:19 PM
Les, what do you mean by scarry? Cruz is bad - just flat out bad. And Zambrano needs to have his head straight to be effective. When he gets overly excited, he throws too hard and it comes out flat. I don't see what Zambrano and Cruz have in common to be Scarry.
Jabrch I think when he said scary, he meant they're scary for him to watch pitch, but Les I disagree with you on Clemens he was still a very effective pitcher last year, and yes he's going to a smaller ball park, but he's also going to the nl with worse offenses, no dh, and the hitters haven't seen him much before, Clemens will have a great year in Houston.

ChiSox21
01-12-2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
:KW
"He's not enough of a grinder."

:reinsy
"And he wanted to be paid! Money! Can you believe that?!"
LOL Good One

Grobber33
01-12-2004, 10:18 PM
:?:

Zambrano was the second best starter on the vaunted 2003 cubs staff. He also was the youngest. [/B][/QUOTE]


Are you out of your mind? Zambrano may have decent stuff,but he wets the bed in most key games(like in all 3 Playoff games he started,and June 6 against the Yanks when he was scared stiff).
I would rather have Clement start a key game than Zambrano.
He's a better HITTER than he is pitcher.

OEO Magglio
01-12-2004, 10:22 PM
Grobber, Zambrano didn't pitch well in the playoffs at all, but in the regular season he was the cubs 2nd best pitcher, and he was better then Wood.

dougs78
01-12-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Northside fan
It is a good staff but it still does not give them the edge.

Prior/Oswaldt. Edge- slight/moderate Cubs Oswaldt is real good but Prior is on the verge of greatness.

Wood/Clemens. Edge- Moderate Cubs. Wood is 26, Clemens is 41.

Zambrano/Pettitte. Edge- slight Astros. Andy has pitched in the series while Zambrano is still a pup and he tends to let his emotions get the best of him.

Clement/Miller. Edge slight Astros. Clement is either lights out or bad. Same can be said for Miller.

Crux/Maddux????/Robertson. As of now, even. Should the Cubs sign Maddux, huge edge to the Cubs.

BP. Even.
Lineup. Slight Cubs.

Advantage..Slight Cubs.

This tends to be sort of a silly exercise in comparing the rotation man by man. What really matters is the cumulative ability of the staff as a whole, not how much better my 3rd is better than your 3rd and so on.

Besides I could easily flip their order and achieve a different outcome.

1. Prior/Oswalt = Edge Cubs
2. Wood/Pettitte = Edge Stros
3. Zambrano/Clemens = Edge Stros
4. Clement/Miller = Edge Stros
5. Robertson/Cruz = Edge Stros.

Now which looks stronger?

DrCrawdad
01-13-2004, 12:31 AM
http://images.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/media/thumbnails/columnist/2003-05/7622751.jpg

...For a franchise that hasn't had back-to-back winning seasons since 1972, there has been a sense of arrogance about the Cubs and their fans since they did the unthinkable and won a playoff series. It's as if Dusty Baker just has to snap his fingers and they're right back in Game 6 of the National League Championship Series, another five outs away from the World Series...

Houston's starting rotation of Clemens, Pettitte, Roy Oswalt, Wade Miller and rookie Jeriome Robertson combined to win 77 games last year—16 more than the Cubs' vaunted foursome of Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Carlos Zambrano and Matt Clement.

The Astros' pitching is so deep that Tim Redding, who compiled a 3.68 ERA over 32 starts last year, and newcomer Brandon Duckworth are likely to work out of the bullpen.

"I certainly like our pitching, and anyone in baseball would tell you this is how we win," Bagwell said. "It's going to be fun to watch. Our offense can settle in a little bit. You won't feel you have to score seven or eight runs to win."

This might be a good time to point out that St. Louis and Houston outscored the Cubs by 152 and 81 runs, respectively, last year. The Astros have certainly narrowed the pitching gap that allowed Baker to eke out a Central title. They might have eliminated it altogether.


WHAT? CUBBIE FANS ARROGANT?

maurice
01-13-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Zambrano was the second best starter on the vaunted 2003 cubs staff. He also was the youngest.

Originally posted by Grobber33
Are you out of your mind?

Um, not currently.

He's definitely the youngest. He also was second best. Zambrano had essentially the same W-L record as Wood and Clement, but pitched more innings and gave up fewer earned runs. Only Prior was better, and even he pitched fewer innings than Zambrano.

Granted, Zambrano's not a "big game" pitcher like Wood, who gave up 5 ER in 4 innings to the Astros in late August. Wood's 0-3 record and 6.35 ERA against the Astros in 2003 was really clutch. (Zambrano was 3-0 with a 0.85 ERA against the 'Stros.) Stiffy . . . I mean, Boner . . . I mean, Woody also got lit up in Game 7 of the World Series. (Zambrano gave up only two runs in Game 5.)

Zambrano is a top three starter on most teams, but since you think he sucks so bad, do us a favor and see if you can get Hendry to trade him to the Sox instead of demoting him.

Grobber33
01-13-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Les, what do you mean by scarry? Cruz is bad - just flat out bad. And Zambrano needs to have his head straight to be effective. When he gets overly excited, he throws too hard and it comes out flat. I don't see what Zambrano and Cruz have in common to be Scarry.


By Scarry,I MEAN bad, I'm not a Fan of Cruz or Zambrano---let me make that quite clear!

Grobber33
01-13-2004, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Grobber, Zambrano didn't pitch well in the playoffs at all, but in the regular season he was the cubs 2nd best pitcher, and he was better then Wood.

If you had your choice of Wood or Zambrano.,which would YOU take??? If you say Carlos, then tell me if you're on the same substance that Brett Favre or Rush Limbaugh have taken!!

KingXerxes
01-13-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
By Scarry,I MEAN bad, I'm not a Fan of Cruz or Zambrano---let me make that quite clear!

If these guys were veterans I'd agree with you Grobber33 - but don't you think, given some time, they'll mature? I personally don't think Cruz is going to amount to much, but Zambrano has shown flashes of brilliance.

Grobber33
01-13-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Um, not currently.

He's definitely the youngest. He also was second best. Zambrano had essentially the same W-L record as Wood and Clement, but pitched more innings and gave up fewer earned runs. Only Prior was better, and even he pitched fewer innings than Zambrano.

Granted, Zambrano's not a "big game" pitcher like Wood, who gave up 5 ER in 4 innings to the Astros in late August. Wood's 0-3 record and 6.35 ERA against the Astros in 2003 was really clutch. (Zambrano was 3-0 with a 0.85 ERA against the 'Stros.) Stiffy . . . I mean, Boner . . . I mean, Woody also got lit up in Game 7 of the World Series. (Zambrano gave up only two runs in Game 5.)

Zambrano is a top three starter on most teams, but since you think he sucks so bad, do us a favor and see if you can get Hendry to trade him to the Sox instead of demoting him.

How about Zambrano for Buehrle?? Mark does'nt want to be on the Sox anyway,and perhaps then the Cubs could send him to his beloved Cards for some needed hitting. I'll bet most Sox Fans on here would NOT make that trade and would rather HAVE Buehrle!!
Of course this is all silly,it would never happen.Sox would'nt be stupid enough to make that trade.

depy48
01-13-2004, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
If you had your choice of Wood or Zambrano.,which would YOU take??? If you say Carlos, then tell me if you're on the same substance that Brett Favre or Rush Limbaugh have taken!!

Then, Grobber33, lets hear your all chicago pitching staff...
As for me, i'd like to think that buehrle, loaiza, and possibly garland, are the sox contribution to the starting rotation, and the cubs throw in prior and wood. as closers go, i'd like to think that there is still enough faith that koch can be what he used to be, so koch over joe-bo as the all chicago closer, and without a doubt marte as the set up man.

maurice
01-13-2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Grobber33
How about Zambrano for Buehrle?

Plenty here would make that trade. Not everybody's enamored with Buehrle. He's given up more runs, hits, and walks per inning each of the past three years (including a less-than-stellar 4.14 ERA in 2003). IMHO, like Zambrano, Buehrle's age makes him more valuable than an older pitcher with similar numbers. The problem with the trade is that the Sox need to add starters, not replace them.

Besides, since Zambrano sucks so bad, you should let me have him for Danny Wright.

:)

OEO Magglio
01-13-2004, 05:13 PM
If you had your choice of Wood or Zambrano.,which would YOU take??? If you say Carlos, then tell me if you're on the same substance that Brett Favre or Rush Limbaugh have taken!!
I didn't say I'd take Zambrano over Wood, I said zambrano was a better pitcher then wood in the regular season just look at the stats and there really isn't even an argument there.

longshot7
01-13-2004, 05:40 PM
Kerry Wood is a .500 pitcher - nothing more, nothing less. And he's not getting any better. Zambrano is not perfect either - but he's younger, and IMO has tremendous upside.

Screw Wood - he is WAY overrated. Sure, he pitched the single-best game I have ever seen, but that was 6 years ago. He's done. I'd take Zambrano.