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View Full Version : Why no Paniagua bashing?


A. Cavatica
01-12-2004, 12:39 AM
I'm amazed we don't have a thread devoted to cursing Jose Paniagua and banishing his devil spawn from the Earth. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, the entire season turned on Paniagua's appearance.

cheeses_h_rice
01-12-2004, 12:41 AM
A., look through the archives -- I think I was watching that night and posted during the game thread. Many of us were wondering exactly when the hell Scarecrow Jerry was going to wake up and remove Jose Bread & Water before he actually blew the game.

I'll try to find the thread for you...trust me, that game loomed v. large in our memories as far as being a momentum shift. Right up there with the Neal Cotts Yankees game, which I think was the most heated this board ever got during the season.

A. Cavatica
01-12-2004, 12:46 AM
Hmmm, hadn't found the archives yet...thanks. I guess I just think we should all spend a little bit of each day wishing ill of Paniagua. I have relatives who follow the Red Sox, and believe me, they won't let Grady Little off the hook for a decade.

jabrch
01-12-2004, 12:49 AM
I was at the Paniagua game. The moment he came in I turned to my friends wife and said, "We are in trouble". Paniagua looked terrible, cost us momentum, and ultimately contributed to our failed season. Granted, Manuel could have changed things. Cotts could have changed things. PK could have changed things. Koch, etc.

Heck, even Maggs had to many GIDPs.

But I agree - Paniagua is the most fun one to blame.

cheeses_h_rice
01-12-2004, 12:56 AM
OK, here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24257&highlight=paniagua) is the thread for that game.

And Lip posted this thread entitled "The Paniagua Affair" (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24366&highlight=paniagua) a few days later that talks about the effect leaving in Paniagua might have had on the Twins' and Sox's momentum. There are other threads around this time that discuss how important that game ended up being.

CubKilla
01-12-2004, 01:29 AM
Blaming Paniagua for the White Sox' choke is like blaming Bartman for the Cubs NLCS choke. Paniagua didn't pitch another game for the Sox afterwards so it's a non-issue. Did he have an effect on that one game? Yes. Did he have an effect on all the other games that followed? No. Wanna blame someone down the stretch? Blame Manuel.

And remember, unlike with the aforementioned Cubs, the Sox still won the "Paniagua Affair."

npdempse
01-12-2004, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Blaming Paniagua for the White Sox' choke is like blaming Bartman for the Cubs NLCS choke.

Seriously. For me, that was one of the most amusing moments of the season, and I was thinking it was more a case of Jerry rubbing it in to the Twins how much they were down by that he was leaving this loser in for so long. I only wish I was close enough to see him flip off the ump. Classy.

I only knew the season was over watching the day game later in that series.

ode to veeck
01-12-2004, 11:12 AM
Blaming Paniagua for the White Sox' choke is like blaming Bartman for the Cubs NLCS choke

Well sort of in that in both cases the wrong person is blamed, but there the similarity ends.

In the Sox case 150% of the blame rests with JM for putting and leaving him in in the first place, period. Ditto for the Cotts affair vs the yank-mes and any number of other amazed to hear it gaffs in the rotation in the latter parts of the '03 season.

In the Flubs case, well it was just destiny :redneck, but it certainly wasn't Bartman's fault, the flubbed grounder to short ought to be remembered like the Durham gaff in SD or Buckner's blooper vs the Mets

FanOf14
01-12-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
In the Sox case 150% of the blame rests with JM for putting and leaving him in in the first place, period.

I didn't see a problem with putting him in with that much of a cushion, but I did have a problem with the fact that JP wasn't on a short leash. He should have faced a max of two batters (unless he was successful, then play it batter to batter) and then yank him.

SSN721
01-12-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
Well sort of in that in both cases the wrong person is blamed, but there the similarity ends.

In the Sox case 150% of the blame rests with JM for putting and leaving him in in the first place, period. Ditto for the Cotts affair vs the yank-mes and any number of other amazed to hear it gaffs in the rotation in the latter parts of the '03 season.

In the Flubs case, well it was just destiny :redneck, but it certainly wasn't Bartman's fault, the flubbed grounder to short ought to be remembered like the Durham gaff in SD or Buckner's blooper vs the Mets

I tend to agree with this assessment of the change in momentum. At the time it was more an amusing anecdote of a very classless laughable performance but looking back it seems to take on a much bigger impact. I don't think the act itself changed the season that just seems to be the mark in time when it all when downhill. And to completely alter the subject, I was at that game that night sitting two rows down from the lower concourse on third base side. Somebody in our section found a praying mantis in the stadium near us and was passing it around in a clear beer cup, mostly to all the kids in our section since they were pretty fascinated by it. I was just kind of curious if anyone else has ever seen one in the park, I honestly had never seen one in real life apart from an insect collection so I was very shocked to see one in the ballpark. Just curious.

CubKilla
01-12-2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by SSN721
I tend to agree with this assessment of the change in momentum. At the time it was more an amusing anecdote of a very classless laughable performance but looking back it seems to take on a much bigger impact. I don't think the act itself changed the season that just seems to be the mark in time when it all when downhill. And to completely alter the subject, I was at that game that night sitting two rows down from the lower concourse on third base side. Somebody in our section found a praying mantis in the stadium near us and was passing it around in a clear beer cup, mostly to all the kids in our section since they were pretty fascinated by it. I was just kind of curious if anyone else has ever seen one in the park, I honestly had never seen one in real life apart from an insect collection so I was very shocked to see one in the ballpark. Just curious.

Are we gonna start blaming a Praying Mantis now? :D:

SSN721
01-12-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Are we gonna start blaming a Praying Mantis now? :D:

I think you could have put a cap on him, trotted him to the mound and he would have pitched better. :)

Brian26
01-12-2004, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
I'm amazed we don't have a thread devoted to cursing Jose Paniagua and banishing his devil spawn from the Earth. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, the entire season turned on Paniagua's appearance.

I think the real culprit was Jerry Manual in that situation. Don't get me wrong, as Paniagua was terrible, and just as much blame could be given to him or Kenny for even signing the guy. However, in that particular game against the Twins, Jerry should have brought the hook immediately after he got in trouble, not letting him stay in there and give up so much damage. The guy that should be bashed is JM.