PDA

View Full Version : Red Sox / White Sox talks heating up


otis
01-09-2004, 03:33 PM
Just heard from my source that White Sox/ Red Sox talks are heating up again.

Word is that the Red Sox feel that they must move Nomar after the Arod fiasco. KW is still interested but wants more than the previous deal.

This is the trade:

White Sox get Nomar Garciaparra, Scott Williamson, Trot Nixon & a top prospect*.

Red Sox get Magglio Ordonez, Jose Valentine & a mid level prospect*.


The hold up right now involves the minor leaguers. Both teams can't agree on which players to swap.

*Once the trade gets closer and before being finalized, the White Sox will ask for permission to discuss a contract extentsion with Nomar. Whether he signs a contract extension or not will determine the caliber of minor leaguers involved. If they can consumate an extension, the player the White Sox would receive would be dropped to a mid level prospect.

What are your thoughts?

Deadguy
01-09-2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by otis
Just heard from my source that White Sox/ Red Sox talks are heating up again.

Word is that the Red Sox feel that they must move Nomar after the Arod fiasco. KW is still interested but wants more than the previous deal.

This is the trade:

White Sox get Nomar Garciaparra, Scott Williamson, Trot Nixon & a top prospect*.

Red Sox get Magglio Ordonez, Jose Valentine & a mid level prospect*.


The hold up right now involves the minor leaguers. Both teams can't agree on which players to swap.

*Once the trade gets closer and before being finalized, the White Sox will ask for permission to discuss a contract extentsion with Nomar. Whether he signs a contract extension or not will determine the caliber of minor leaguers involved. If they can consumate an extension, the player the White Sox would receive would be dropped to a mid level prospect.

What are your thoughts?

What's Trot's contract status? Doesn't sound too bad. Trot's OPS was outstanding last year, although I'm sure it was aided a bit by playing half his games in Fenway.

I'm content with Nosemar being a 1 and out player, since Magglio is essentially the same.

jeremyb1
01-09-2004, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by otis
Just heard from my source that White Sox/ Red Sox talks are heating up again.

Word is that the Red Sox feel that they must move Nomar after the Arod fiasco. KW is still interested but wants more than the previous deal.

This is the trade:

White Sox get Nomar Garciaparra, Scott Williamson, Trot Nixon & a top prospect*.

Red Sox get Magglio Ordonez, Jose Valentine & a mid level prospect*.


The hold up right now involves the minor leaguers. Both teams can't agree on which players to swap.

*Once the trade gets closer and before being finalized, the White Sox will ask for permission to discuss a contract extentsion with Nomar. Whether he signs a contract extension or not will determine the caliber of minor leaguers involved. If they can consumate an extension, the player the White Sox would receive would be dropped to a mid level prospect.

What are your thoughts?

Nixon is a good player. I don't think this deal hurts us but I'm not sure it improves the club either. If it does, its only by a slight margin. Maggs is moderately better than Nixon and Nomar is moderately better than Jose. If we sign Nomar to a huge long term deal I like the trade much less.

munchman33
01-09-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by otis
Just heard from my source that White Sox/ Red Sox talks are heating up again.

And what source would that be?

Dadawg_77
01-09-2004, 03:41 PM
It is better then the Sox/LA rumor floating around here.

davenicholson
01-09-2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by otis

Red Sox get Magglio Ordonez, Jose Valentine & a mid level prospect*.

Man, this is exciting! To think that we'd get rid of two embarassing "chants" (or songs or what have you) with one trade makes me giddy. :D:

34 Inch Stick
01-09-2004, 03:47 PM
Why would they trade for another corner outfielder. I would think the Sox would be more interested in Damon, since he fills at least two holes (leadoff and center).

I think that trade would end up benefitting the Red more than the White Sox.

Dan Gelo
01-09-2004, 03:49 PM
I don't mind it actually. This is the first trade that doesn't sound like garbage. Our gidp would drop by about 35 just from this trade alone. [COLOR=teal]Now if we could only figure out how to get rid of Paulie for Pedro..........

Twin Killing
01-09-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by otis
Just heard from my source that White Sox/ Red Sox talks are heating up again.

Word is that the Red Sox feel that they must move Nomar after the Arod fiasco. KW is still interested but wants more than the previous deal.

This is the trade:

White Sox get Nomar Garciaparra, Scott Williamson, Trot Nixon & a top prospect*.

Red Sox get Magglio Ordonez, Jose Valentine & a mid level prospect*.


The hold up right now involves the minor leaguers. Both teams can't agree on which players to swap.

*Once the trade gets closer and before being finalized, the White Sox will ask for permission to discuss a contract extentsion with Nomar. Whether he signs a contract extension or not will determine the caliber of minor leaguers involved. If they can consumate an extension, the player the White Sox would receive would be dropped to a mid level prospect.

What are your thoughts?

Sounds interesting, but I can't see Nomar agreeing to the extention.

Dadawg_77
01-09-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Why would they trade for another corner outfielder. I would think the Sox would be more interested in Damon, since he fills at least two holes (leadoff and center).

I think that trade would end up benefitting the Red more than the White Sox.

Tront cost less then Mags.

Hangar18
01-09-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by davenicholson
Man, this is exciting! To think that we'd get rid of two embarassing "chants" (or songs or what have you) with one trade makes me giddy. :D:

are you kidding me? Magglios chant is one of the most
memorable out now. Cub fans would LOVE TO HAVE MAGGLIO, so they could do that chant also ..........

CHISOXFAN13
01-09-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Tront cost less then Mags.

Couple of real grinders in that deal. If the Sox can then unload Nomar to LA for the pitching package that really would be a hell of a job by KW.

But, I'm not going to get excited about another rumor until it actually happens.

bennyw41
01-09-2004, 03:56 PM
I'd like to see this deal happen for a couple of reasons.

I think bring nomar to chicago brings some new blood and a damn good hitter with a big name

But more importantly, its some freaking movement. I 'd like to see us move someone, or do something to get me heated for the season.

OEO Magglio
01-09-2004, 03:58 PM
And what source would that be?
I'm not sure who his source is, but he brought up the nomar/maggs trade way before it was ever reported so he's credible around here now, as far as the trade goes I would love to see that deal, we'd probably improve our offense somewhat plus if we'd have a nice improvement in the bullpen, and also if we'd somehow be able to sign nomar for a little while that would be awesome, but I just don't see it happening just because nothing goes right for the sox.

34 Inch Stick
01-09-2004, 03:58 PM
I would try to stick the Dodgers with Paulie one more time before getting rid of Nomar. If Nomar is on the team it takes another hitter off the market for LA. Eventually they are going to get desperate.

jabrch
01-09-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
And what source would that be?

His source is WSIs own Cheeses!

jabrch
01-09-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
I would try to stick the Dodgers with Paulie one more time before getting rid of Nomar. If Nomar is on the team it takes another hitter off the market for LA. Eventually they are going to get desperate.

Or I wouldn't give em Nomar unless they took PK AND GAVE US VALUE FOR HIM in return. Might be able to get Miller/Jackson in a deal?

Palehose13
01-09-2004, 04:03 PM
I like it, especially if Nomar extends his contract. Either Nixon or Damon would be fine with me. Both are lefties. Nixon only makes 4 mil for 2004, but no contract after that. Damon makes 8.0 in 2004, but he is also locked up for 2005 at 8.5 mil. Thinking about the palehose self-imposed budget, Nixon is most likely.

So essentially the Sox(Red and White) swap SS and RF and a prospect, while the W. Sox gain a relief pitcher. With the proposed trade the White Sox lose 19 mil of salary between 2 players and pick up 3 players for 17.5 mil. The only thing I don't like is that all 3 players from the Red Sox will be FA's after 2004.

lowesox
01-09-2004, 04:04 PM
This would be an incredible move for the White Sox. And it would put us back into the hunt in the Central. All we'd be missing then is one more good starting pitcher and we'd have a pretty good team. Anybody know the financial savings here if any? Don't suppose it would free up enough cash for Ponson or Moss would it?

cornball
01-09-2004, 04:05 PM
Well the deal seems fair, could benefit both clubs. Extending Nomar would be key. Very intersting though, thanks Otis.

Foulke You
01-09-2004, 04:06 PM
I like the sound of this trade. I've made my feelings known that if we get rid of Maggs, I wouldn't mind it being for a player the caliber of Nomar. Trot Nixon would be solid but I would be absolutely giddy if the outfielder turned out to be Johnny Damon. As 34 Inch Stick pointed out, leadoff man and CF problem would be solved in one guy. Plus, Scott Williamson would round out our bullpen and combined with Polite would adequately replace Sullivan and Gordan. The trade would also immediately get rid of the looming nightmare of the rumored "roving Valentin" strategy to get more PT for Juan Uribe. Uribe would have himself a nice seat on the bench while he watches a future HOF shortstop in action.

Thanks for the heads up Otis. I for one hope you turn out to be right again. This time, the deal isn't pending the A-Rod/Manny fiasco.

Palehose13
01-09-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
This would be an incredible move for the White Sox. And it would put us back into the hunt in the Central. All we'd be missing then is one more good starting pitcher and we'd have a pretty good team. Anybody know the financial savings here if any? Don't suppose it would free up enough cash for Ponson or Moss would it?

See my post above yours. I think we posted at the same time.

DirtySouthsider
01-09-2004, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
I like it, especially if Nomar extends his contract. Either Nixon or Damon would be fine with me. Both are lefties. Nixon only makes 4 mil for 2004, but no contract after that. Damon makes 8.0 in 2004, but he is also locked up for 2005 at 8.5 mil. Thinking about the palehose self-imposed budget, Nixon is most likely.

So essentially the Sox(Red and White) swap SS and RF and a prospect, while the W. Sox gain a relief pitcher. With the proposed trade the White Sox lose 19 mil of salary between 2 players and pick up 3 players for 17.5 mil. The only thing I don't like is that all 3 players from the Red Sox will be FA's after 2004.


I agree with you but is it really such a bad deal gettiing alot of players who will be FA after next year? This would leave alot of money open for the FA market in 2005 (hoping the Sox would be willing to spend it on players they need).

Palehose13
01-09-2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by DirtySouthsider
I agree with you but is it really such a bad deal gettiing alot of players who will be FA after next year? This would leave alot of money open for the FA market in 2005 (hoping the Sox would be willing to spend it on players they need).

I would do the deal in a heartbeat. I want to win now not later. I brought up the contracts because that was the only downside I saw in the deal. However, I guess Valentin and Maggs will be FA too next year...so it's a wash.

Northside fan
01-09-2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18

Cub fans would LOVE TO HAVE MAGGLIO, so they could do that chant also .......... [/B]

Now that is ridiculous.

BeerHandle
01-09-2004, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by otis
Just heard from my source that White Sox/ Red Sox talks are heating up again.

Word is that the Red Sox feel that they must move Nomar after the Arod fiasco. KW is still interested but wants more than the previous deal.

This is the trade:

White Sox get Nomar Garciaparra, Scott Williamson, Trot Nixon & a top prospect*.

Red Sox get Magglio Ordonez, Jose Valentine & a mid level prospect*.


The hold up right now involves the minor leaguers. Both teams can't agree on which players to swap.

*Once the trade gets closer and before being finalized, the White Sox will ask for permission to discuss a contract extentsion with Nomar. Whether he signs a contract extension or not will determine the caliber of minor leaguers involved. If they can consumate an extension, the player the White Sox would receive would be dropped to a mid level prospect.

What are your thoughts?

Welcome back Otis! Keep the news coming in. You were pretty accurate on the last potential. Lets see this time!

34 Inch Stick
01-09-2004, 04:18 PM
Does Boston have anyone in the minor leagues that would really excite the Sox? It was my understanding that their cubbard is preety bare.

I forgot that Damon is lefthanded so that would fill three holes. The trade is ok as otis detailed it. I think it would be great if you get Damon instead of Nixon and get the Red Sox to eat some salary.

When you think about it the Sox are in the position of power and should be able to squeeze the Red a little bit.

kittle42
01-09-2004, 04:20 PM
This trade will never happen.

bobj4400
01-09-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Cub fans would LOVE TO HAVE MAGGLIO, so they could do that chant also ..........

And then claim that it was they who started it...

Palehose13
01-09-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
This trade will never happen.
Why not?

longshot7
01-09-2004, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Or I wouldn't give em Nomar unless they took PK AND GAVE US VALUE FOR HIM in return. Might be able to get Miller/Jackson in a deal?

You might be able to get either Jackson (the better of the two) or Miller. Not both. The Dodgers have been burned way too many times for that.

34 Inch Stick
01-09-2004, 04:27 PM
It may not happen, but if otis is saying it, it is probably being discussed. He's earned the presumption that his Red Sox information is correct.

cheeses_h_rice
01-09-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
His source is WSIs own Cheeses!

Hey, I resemble that remark...

:)

Palehose13
01-09-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
It may not happen, but if otis is saying it, it is probably being discussed. He's earned the presumption that his Red Sox information is correct.
I second that.

joecrede
01-09-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
I forgot that Damon is lefthanded so that would fill three holes. The trade is ok as otis detailed it. I think it would be great if you get Damon instead of Nixon and get the Red Sox to eat some salary.

Nixon is the better offensive player and could play CF. If we lose Valentin a left-handed hitter in the middle of the order becomes more critical than a leadoff hitter IMO.

I agree with what Jeremy wrote about the trade it doesn't really improve the team all that much. That said, the downside of this trade would be minnimal.

Positives:

- Williamson would be a nice addition to the pen.
- Only one middle infielder would need to be platooned.
- Of the hitters in the deal, Valentin is the most likely to experience a severe decline in performance.

Negatives:

- Ordonez is the best hitter in the deal.

Foulke You
01-09-2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Nixon is the better offensive player and could play CF. If we lose Valentin a left-handed hitter in the middle of the order becomes more critical than a leadoff hitter IMO.

I agree with what Jeremy wrote about the trade it doesn't really improve the team all that much. That said, the downside of this trade would be minnimal.

Positives:

- Williamson would be a nice addition to the pen.
- Only one middle infielder would need to be platooned.
- Of the hitters in the deal, Valentin is the most likely to experience a severe decline in performance.

Negatives:

- Ordonez is the best hitter in the deal.

I agree with all your positives and negatives but I would add another "intangible" to the positives list. It's called PR. Something the White Sox are in desperate need of this offseason. The White Sox need to create a stir and grab headlines especially after what the Cubs are doing. I love Maggs, but Nomar Garciaparra is a huge name that is recognized on a national level. He would immediately become the new face of the White Sox and give us a marketable star player hopefully for the next few years assuming he could be signed long term. I really think the fans would take a quick liking to the guy and casual fans may come out to see him play which could provide an attendance boost.

soxwon
01-09-2004, 05:06 PM
NOMAAAAR NOMAAR NOMAAAR NO MAR NOOOOMAARRR NNNOOOMARRR
like JOSE JOSE JOSE JOSE

OEO Magglio
01-09-2004, 05:08 PM
NOMAAAAR NOMAAR NOMAAAR NO MAR NOOOOMAARRR NNNOOOMARRR
It just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Hangar18
01-09-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Northside fan
Now that is ridiculous.

come on man ..............admit it, your among the circle of truth

Hangar18
01-09-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I agree with all your positives and negatives but I would add another "intangible" to the positives list. It's called PR. Something the White Sox are in desperate need of this offseason. The White Sox need to create a stir and grab headlines especially after what the Cubs are doing. I love Maggs, but Nomar Garciaparra is a huge name that is recognized on a national level. He would immediately become the new face of the White Sox and give us a marketable star player hopefully for the next few years assuming he could be signed long term. I really think the fans would take a quick liking to the guy and casual fans may come out to see him play which could provide an attendance boost.

Magglio is Just as Marketable .......except the Buffoons in the
front office dont know how to market him ..........
these guys couldnt market Snow Mobiles to Alaskans .......

TaylorStSox
01-09-2004, 05:23 PM
Magg's isn't a "marketable" because his English is poor. Plus, Nomar's a star.

Let's not forget, we're giving up a B defensive RF for an A defensive SS.

fquaye149
01-09-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Magg's isn't a "marketable" because his English is poor. Plus, Nomar's a star.

Let's not forget, we're giving up a B defensive RF for an A defensive SS.


i think nomar is a b ss...correct me if i'm wrong..


although, a b ss is much more valuable than a b rf

dickallen15
01-09-2004, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Magg's isn't a "marketable" because his English is poor. Plus, Nomar's a star.

Let's not forget, we're giving up a B defensive RF for an A defensive SS.

Nomar is definitely not an A defensive shortstop, at least the last few years. I still would definitely do the deal, if its true, even though I love Magglio. Nomar is more marketable than Magglio, and would appeal to the casual fan more, especially being married to another famous person. Williamson would be a big addition to the bullpen, and Nixon is a pretty good player himself. The more I think about this , I wonder why Boston would make this trade. Many posters are concerned with Nomar's stats varying greatly home and away. Valentin hit .297 at home in 2002 and .204 on the road. Last year he hit for a higher average on the road.

TaylorStSox
01-09-2004, 05:34 PM
I don't think there's a chance because we gain so much from it. We're getting 3 guys that can be/have been all star quality for a great player and a journeyman. This just doesn't make any sense from the Red Sox POV.

maurice
01-09-2004, 05:38 PM
This would be a very good deal.

lowesox
01-09-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I agree with what Jeremy wrote about the trade it doesn't really improve the team all that much.

Why do you think this trade doesn't improve the team. First of all, while Valentin was really good for us the year he came over, he hasn't done much since. Garciaparra is an offensive and defensive upgrade. Besides Valentin is like a .230 hitter and with weaker hitters like Harris and Olivo in the lineup you can't have another tanker.

Also, consider that you'd be adding Williamson to the bullpen. We're desperate for another good righthanded pitcher, and he can close which is an added bonus because Koch is so unpredictable. That's another hole filled.

And with Nixon you have a very productive outfielder who can play pretty good D. He's not as good as Ordonez, but he's a very, very solid player.

This turns two problems areas and one strength into 3 strengths. And if we were to use Garciaparra as trade bait this deal could make us even better.

Palehose13
01-09-2004, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
I don't think there's a chance because we gain so much from it. We're getting 3 guys that can be/have been all star quality for a great player and a journeyman. This just doesn't make any sense from the Red Sox POV.
My guess is that they really rubbed Nomar the wrong way with the Arod fiasco.

joecrede
01-09-2004, 05:59 PM
Garciaparra isn't that big of an upgrade over Valentin.

TaylorStSox
01-09-2004, 06:05 PM
Garciaparra isn't that big of an upgrade over Valentin.

That must be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum.

Mickster
01-09-2004, 06:07 PM
Are you kidding? Nomar is considerably better then Valentin and in many aspects. At the current pace, Nomar is a future HOF SS, and Valentin...

Iwritecode
01-09-2004, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
That must be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum.

You haven't read enough of my posts yet then. :D:

It is pretty close though...

joecrede
01-09-2004, 06:20 PM
Valentin is an underrated player because he doesn't hit for a high average and has to be platooned against left-handers. If there's a right-handed pitcher on the mound I'd just as soon have Valentin playing short as I would Garciaparra.

A. Cavatica
01-09-2004, 06:22 PM
Time to blow my own horn...

I'm new around here, but way back on Nov 12th I outlined this deal on alt.sports.baseball.chi-whitesox:

"If the rumored Manny-for-A-Rod deal ever goes down, there will be all kinds of trade possibilities between the Chisox and the Bosox. The Bostons might be interested in Ordonez, Lee, Konerko, Valentin (to play 2B), and pitching -- maybe even Koch. And they're apparently willing to move Nixon or Damon in addition to Garciaparra.

I wonder what the Rangers have to trade besides A-Rod? Maybe we can work out a three-way deal in which we also manage to ship Danny
Wright to Texas. ;-)"

This was WAY before anybody else proposed it, as far as I know. And I even got the bit about Wright to Texas, which was really going to happen in the Manny-for-A-Rod deal.

Foulke You
01-09-2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Garciaparra isn't that big of an upgrade over Valentin.

You're kidding me right? You don't honestly believe Valentin is near Nomar's level?

joecrede
01-09-2004, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
You're kidding me right? You don't honestly believe Valentin is near Nomar's level?

I think the gap between Garciaparra and Valentin isn't nearly as big as it might look at first glance.

Chisoxfn
01-09-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
You're kidding me right? You don't honestly believe Valentin is near Nomar's level?

Comments on Jose's greatness never cease to amaze me.

fquaye149
01-09-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I think the gap between Garciaparra and Valentin isn't nearly as big as it might look at first glance.

it's bigger than it looks.

Mickster
01-09-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Valentin is an underrated player because he doesn't hit for a high average and has to be platooned against left-handers. If there's a right-handed pitcher on the mound I'd just as soon have Valentin playing short as I would Garciaparra.

If ifs and buts were candies and nuts....

cornball
01-09-2004, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I think the gap between Garciaparra and Valentin isn't nearly as big as it might look at first glance.

Now that I am done laughing....I forgot when i think of all the great AL shortstops ARod, Nomar, Jeter, Vanlentin...who am I missing...

I know your just playing devil's advocate.

Mickster
01-09-2004, 06:35 PM
The fact that the sox are considering playing Uribe at ss and playing Valentin at 2b/cf is enough to stop the madness of the "Normar is not that much better than Jose" talk in this thread.

soxwon
01-09-2004, 06:42 PM
i have a good friend who originally was from Boston- he loves the Red Sox but does think the White Sox have a hell of a team(last seasons team).
he says NOMAR is an incredibly exciting Defensive SS, he makes plays deep in the hole on the grass and rifles the ball to 1b, plus he thinks TROt is a very good player too, along with WILLIAMSon he thinks the WHITESOX have a steal.
hes watched Bosox ball for 40 years and i believe his word is gold so therefore.
DO THIS DEAL NOW....

joecrede
01-09-2004, 06:44 PM
A couple of things:

Valentin is as good a fielder as Garciaparra.
Valentin is as good an offensive player as Garciaparra when the opposing pitcher is right-handed (or about 80% of the time.)

MarkV
01-09-2004, 06:46 PM
Defensively, Jose and Nomar are the same guy. Both have the same range and Jose has a bit stronger arm. They make the same amount of errors. Offensively, Nomar has been a .260 hitter on the road over the last three years and he's been on the decline the last few years since his wrist injury. Given Jose's propensity to hook balls just in front of the foul pole, his power numbers would dramatically increase with the short porch in Fenway. Plus, with the Green Monster, a lot of the flyouts he normally has righthanded would be hits, increasing his average. In Fenway, he could be a .270, 30-35 HR, 70-90 RBI guy. Plus his salary is $7 mil less than Nomar's. You don't need to include Maggs in the deal. Trade Jose, Borchard, and a mid-level minor leaguer for Nomar. Then trade Nomar and another guy (try to package Koch) to the Angels for Jarrod Washburn, Francisco Rodriguez, and David Eckstein. They have seven starters, so you can get Washburn and Eckstein replaces Valentin, plus he becomes your leadoff guy. With Washburn, you get a #1 type guy, and you get a young stud in the pen with K-Rod. Plus, Washburn, K-Rod, and Eckstein combine to make around what Valentin is making, and they all have at least a couple of years before they become free agents. With the move, you fill three holes and (if you can move at least half of Koch's salary) you have money left to use to get Maggs signed to a new contract, keeping him here for the next 4-5 years.

Kenny, are you reading this?

Mickster
01-09-2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
A couple of things:

Valentin is as good a fielder as Garciaparra.
Valentin is as good an offensive player as Garciaparra when the opposing pitcher is right-handed (or about 80% of the time.)

Garciaparra
Career .323 BA, 30 HR, 215 hits/season. .969 fielding %

Valentin
Career .246 BA, 24 HR, 130 hits/season. .958 fielding %

NO COMPARISON!

joecrede
01-09-2004, 07:01 PM
Last three years v. right-handed pitching:

Garciaparra .857 OPS in 1,071 AB's
Valentin .859 OPS in 1,198 AB's

The big difference between the two is in the 100 AB's Garciapara will get against lefties.

Fenway
01-09-2004, 07:04 PM
There are numerous reports simmering below the surface, that the Red Sox want to move Nomar ASAP

http://forums.redsoxnation.net/style_images/1/pip.gif

fquaye149
01-09-2004, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
Offensively, Nomar has been a .260 hitter on the road over the last three years and he's been on the decline the last few years since his wrist injury.
Kenny, are you reading this?

this is the most misleading thing i've ever read.

in 2003 nomar hit .240 on the road

in 2002 he his .290

2001 he only had 83 ab

it's hardly as if he has been consistently a .260 hitter for the past 3 years.

MarkV
01-09-2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
this is the most misleading thing i've ever read.

in 2003 nomar hit .240 on the road

in 2002 he his .290

2001 he only had 83 ab

it's hardly as if he has been consistently a .260 hitter for the past 3 years.

How is it misleading? If you take what he's done on thre road the last three years, his average comes out to be around .260. Plus, historically, Nomar has been a superior hitter at Fenway compared to what he does on the road.

Palehose13
01-09-2004, 07:09 PM
You got to hand it to otis, whenever he starts a thread it is hot and stays hot.

Originally posted by fenway
[B]There are numerous reports simmering below the surface, that the Red Sox want to move Nomar ASAP
We'll take him.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-09-2004, 07:13 PM
As an everyday shortstop, Jose Valentin would make a great improvement over Willie Harris at 2B. The man is at best a platoon ballplayer anymore.

Even taking Nomar out of Fenway for 81 dates he will be a huge improvement over the overpriced has-been KW would otherwise trot out there next April.

This isn't even close.

Foulke You
01-09-2004, 07:17 PM
I can't believe we have to argue the point home that Nomar is above Valentin and not just by a small margin! C'mon folks, this is Nomar Garciaparra! I'm a big Valentin supporter and fan but I'm not blind to the fact that Jose isn't the same caliber of player that Garciaparra is. Don't let the ChiSox kool-aid blind you to the truth. :D: There isn't one stat that Valentin outshines Nomar in offensively or defensively. That's a fact. (Although I'm sure someone will dig up some obscure stat that says Jose hits better on the road against left handed pitchers when there is a full moon out and we are playing in a dome). And Nomar doesn't need to be taken out of games the moment a left handed pitcher comes in to the game.

MarkV
01-09-2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I can't believe we have to argue the point home that Nomar is above Valentin and not just by a small margin! C'mon folks, this is Nomar Garciaparra! I'm a big Valentin supporter and fan but I'm not blind to the fact that Jose isn't the same caliber of player that Garciaparra is. Don't let the ChiSox kool-aid blind you to the truth. :D: There isn't one stat that Valentin outshines Nomar in offensively or defensively. That's a fact. (Although I'm sure someone will dig up some obscure stat that says Jose hits better on the road against left handed pitchers when there is a full moon out and we are playing in a dome). And Nomar doesn't need to be taken out of games the moment a left handed pitcher comes in to the game.

Maybe if Manuel would have left him in to face lefties more often, he might have been better. Nomar is much better than Jose. If you read my earlier post, though, you could see my reasoning as to how we wouldn't have to move Maggs and the potential that Jose would have hitting in Fenway. If we got Nomar, we could then use him to get those guys from the Angels. Arte Moreno's favorite player is Nomar and Nomar is a SoCal guy, so it'd be a perfect deal for all teams involved.

Lip Man 1
01-09-2004, 07:25 PM
One point everyone seems to be missing (and I'd certainly favor this deal) is that at last glance the Red Sox still had Manny Ramirez right?

Where would they play Mags? (unless they have finally found a taker for Ramirez...)

Lip

MarkV
01-09-2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
One point everyone seems to be missing (and I'd certainly favor this deal) is that at last glance the Red Sox still had Manny Ramirez right?

Where would they play Mags? (unless they have finally found a taker for Ramirez...)

Lip

Plus, they'd be adding $7 mil in payroll. I know they have a huge budget, but how much can you spend?

Palehose13
01-09-2004, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
One point everyone seems to be missing (and I'd certainly favor this deal) is that at last glance the Red Sox still had Manny Ramirez right?

Where would they play Mags? (unless they have finally found a taker for Ramirez...)

Lip
Um...right field? Doesn't Manny play left and Trot play right?

Palehose13
01-09-2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
Plus, they'd be adding $7 mil in payroll. I know they have a huge budget, but how much can you spend?

They would add 1.5 million in payroll.
Maggs+Jose =19 mil
Nomar+Trot+Williamson=17.5 mil

Since they were willing to take on Arod's contract, I don't think 1.5mil will break them.

Deadguy
01-09-2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
One point everyone seems to be missing (and I'd certainly favor this deal) is that at last glance the Red Sox still had Manny Ramirez right?

Where would they play Mags? (unless they have finally found a taker for Ramirez...)

Lip

Trot Nixon is included (the rfer), which opens up a spot for Magglio. Ramirez plays LF.

MarkV
01-09-2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
They would add 1.5 million in payroll.
Maggs+Jose =19 mil
Nomar+Trot+Williamson=17.5 mil

Since they were willing to take on Arod's contract, I don't think 1.5mil will break them.

My bad. I forgot to include Trot and Williamson's salaries. Thanks.

chisox06
01-09-2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
My guess is that they really rubbed Nomar the wrong way with the Arod fiasco.

Without a doubt. Thats why you can almost guarantee that Nomar is going somewhere.

I like the deal, I hate to lose Mags, but this is the first trade proposal that I can honeslty say were gettin an even return for Mags. for me thats the key. Never been a big Valentin fan, although the guy does play hard and his D improved greatly last year, his stick was always a real killer in the lineup.

Question about Nomar, didnt he verbally say he would hate the play for the sox? Makes me wonder about his attitude next year, and if it will affect his play. Also, it doesn't sound good for a contract extention with a guy that has an attitude like that. But, if your going to use him as trade bait anyways it doesnt really matter, Nomar being on the last year of his contract also is a big help if you wanted to deal him.

MarkV
01-09-2004, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by chisox06
Without a doubt. Thats why you can almost guarantee that Nomar is going somewhere.

I like the deal, I hate to lose Mags, but this is the first trade proposal that I can honeslty say were gettin an even return for Mags. for me thats the key. Never been a big Valentin fan, although the guy does play hard and his D improved greatly last year, his stick was always a real killer in the lineup.

Question about Nomar, didnt he verbally say he would hate the play for the sox? Makes me wonder about his attitude next year, and if it will affect his play. Also, it doesn't sound good for a contract extention with a guy that has an attitude like that. But, if your going to use him as trade bait anyways it doesnt really matter, Nomar being on the last year of his contract also is a big help if you wanted to deal him.

There's no question that if we got him, we'd deal him.

poorme
01-09-2004, 07:56 PM
There is no way this happens. NO WAY. Garciaparra is better than Ordonez and Nixon's WAY better than Valentin. AND Boston is going to give up Williamson AND a prospect??? NO WAY. Quit dreaming.

MarkV
01-09-2004, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by poorme
There is no way this happens. NO WAY. Garciaparra is better than Ordonez and Nixon's WAY better than Valentin. AND Boston is going to give up Williamson AND a prospect??? NO WAY. Quit dreaming.

You're nuts if you think Nomar is better than Maggs. Nomar can't hit outside of Fenway. Maggs is far more valuable than Nomar. You'll see once Nomar moves to another team, his numbers will go way down. Maggs in Fenway would be devastating, and he plays well everywhere.

Fenway
01-09-2004, 08:00 PM
somebody from WSI posted on our Sox board about what Otis had posted

reaction has been swift in the last hour

redsoxnation.net reaction (http://forums.redsoxnation.net/index.php?showtopic=965)

fquaye149
01-09-2004, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by MarkV
How is it misleading? If you take what he's done on thre road the last three years, his average comes out to be around .260. Plus, historically, Nomar has been a superior hitter at Fenway compared to what he does on the road.

how is it misleading? you said the over the past three years, but he didn't even play 2001.

and if you're just dealing with 2 years why not say he hit .290 in 02 and .240 in 03?....but you misled people by saying "in the past 3 years he hit .260" as if he's been consistently around .260. it's not false, but it's misleading to make nomar out to be a lot worse on the road than he is...really he's only been bad on the road last year.

poorme
01-09-2004, 08:19 PM
In 1999, Nomar had a 1.061 OPS on the road.

RKMeibalane
01-09-2004, 08:25 PM
I like this trade. If it happens, the Sox lineup will have managed to fill several holes. I would still like to see them try to move Konerko to LA for more pitching, but this deal by itself will improve the ballclub.

I see the Sox lineup looking like this once the trade is complete:

2B- Harris/Uribe
SS- Garciaparra
1B- Thomas
LF- Lee
RF- Nixon
DH- Konerko
3B- Crede
CF- Rowand
C- Olivo

That lineup seems to be much more well-rounded than the one used in previous years. However, Nomar and Nixon are an upgrade over Ordonez and Valentin. Nomar can play against both righties and lefties, and Nixon gives the Sox a versitile outfielder, and he's also a left-handed hitter.

I don't know what the chances are of this deal going through, but I hope it does. The Sox need to do something this off-season that shows the fans that they want to win.

A. Cavatica
01-09-2004, 08:37 PM
Reposting a 12/23 submission of mine to alt.sports.baseball.chi-whitesox:

I wouldn't be surprised to see Garciaparra-for-Ordonez anyway, in spite of the logjam with the A-Rod/Manny deal. I base this on three things:

* Neither Nomar nor Maggs will be re-signed when their contracts are up.
* Both teams have had plenty of time to dream about the trade, and both teams' fans wanted it to happen.
* I think the A-Rod deal will resurface in a few weeks.

Making the deal would leave Boston without a shortstop and Chicago without a right fielder, but the Chisox have prospects ready to step in. Boston will eventually fill the hole with A-Rod, but they have to cover themselves in case the deal never gets done. So I would expect the deal to expand: Nomar and an outfielder (either Nixon or Damon) for Maggs and Valentin. Maybe
Williamson & Wright will be included to sweeten the deal for Chicago.

If Boston lands A-Rod, they would then move Valentin somewhere (maybe back to Chicago if Nomar is sent on to LA).

lowesox
01-09-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by fenway
somebody from WSI posted on our Sox board about what Otis had posted

reaction has been swift in the last hour

redsoxnation.net reaction (http://forums.redsoxnation.net/index.php?showtopic=965)

WOw, that's my first time reading another teams fan site. It's so interesting to me how all their fans seem to like their GM. I think the opposite could be said here.

Also, I laughed at how most of them scoffed at the prospect of having Valentin as their shortstop. One even implied that they'd need to go out and get somebody else. And they all think 5 million is rediculous. Which is funny since Kenny and Jose just came to that agreement a month ago.

munchman33
01-09-2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
WOw, that's my first time reading another teams fan site. It's so interesting to me how all their fans seem to like their GM. I think the opposite could be said here.

Also, I laughed at how most of them scoffed at the prospect of having Valentin as their shortstop. One even implied that they'd need to go out and get somebody else. And they all think 5 million is rediculous. Which is funny since Kenny and Jose just came to that agreement a month ago.

There was no such agreement. Kenny had to pick up an option of face losing Valentin.

lowesox
01-09-2004, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
There was no such agreement. Kenny had to pick up an option of face losing Valentin.

What I meant was that usually when fans are critical of a player's contract it's after a couple years that the GM and player agreed on those terms. And it's not until a few years later that its decided the contract is a mistake (ie. Konerko). But in this case our GM just recently deemed 5 million an appropriate amount for Jose - which most people agree is absurd even when Jose hasn't played a game yet in 2004.

Daver
01-09-2004, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
What I meant was that usually when fans are critical of a player's contract it's after a couple years that the GM and player agreed on those terms. And it's not until a few years later that its decided the contract is a mistake (ie. Konerko). But in this case our GM just recently deemed 5 million an appropriate amount for Jose - which most people agree is absurd even when Jose hasn't played a game yet in 2004.

No,KW picked up an option on Jose's contract,that if not picked up would have resulted in Jose being considered a non-tender,and therefore unable to negotiate with the Sox until May 1st of 2004.

duke of dorwood
01-09-2004, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
His source is WSIs own Cheeses!

Yeah, but did Dickie Dunn report it?

lowesox
01-09-2004, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Daver
No,KW picked up an option on Jose's contract,that if not picked up would have resulted in Jose being considered a non-tender,and therefore unable to negotiate with the Sox until May 1st of 2004.

But what I'm saying is that Valentin wasn't worth 5 million. Especially on a cash strapped team. They'd be better without him.

Daver
01-09-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
But what I'm saying is that Valentin wasn't worth 5 million. Especially on a cash strapped team. They'd be better without him.

Who plays SS?

Rex Hudler
01-09-2004, 11:19 PM
The Sox could have declined the option on Jose and continued to negotiate with him. He was eligible for free agency, therefore would have been subject to the same rules as Alomar, Everett, etc. They would have had that same window with Jose.

As much as I think $5 million is way too much for Jose, KW was backed into a corner and had no Plan B. There is no one from the farm system that could have replaced him and not a decent crop of FA's. I think Jose's agent told Kenny that Jose was getting interest from other teams and Kenny took the bluff.

I am not saying that I would have definitely done it differently if I were Kenny because not having a decent option at SS is very scary and could backfire big time. But I do think he got played in this one.

lowesox
01-10-2004, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Who plays SS?

Personally, I'd rather have Uribe and 5 million dollars than Jose Valentin, but if we needed somebody the sox could have made a run at Aurillia or traded for Guillen. No matter what, you don't overpay for a player just because you're not sure who to replace him with. Especially when the rest of your team is in shambles.

67WasBest
01-10-2004, 02:07 AM
Nice forum you folks have here, many knowledgable posters. I run a website, chat and forum for Red Sox fans and wrote a large piece on this today.

The Carmines have a big time woody for ARod. I believe this is all part of that pursuit, with Valentin eventually being the Texas SS.

I'm going to post my story, but I saw a few questions and have a few answers maybe:

If Nomar is moved on to LA, who owuld play short? I would expect you to take Iztaris back in trade, along with a pitcher. I also see LA as a trade target and I am not sure which of our items being shopped to them is more attractive, a 5 yr manny, while shedding Driefort and Perez, or a 1 yr and hope Nomar, tough call.

Trot had a 969 OPS last year to Mag's .911. Granted Trot hit in Fenway, but he is a pull hitter and thus the Fenway Factor is negated. He was however, shielded from hitting against lefties on many occasions, but still managed to play in 143 games. He is one of my favorites, but I am looking at the big picture and see that he must be included.

Nomar was additionally .100 OPS higher then Valentin.

I'm not sure where it is coming from that more is required than these 4 straight up? As I write below, if Williamson is in the deal, we better be getting Cotts back in return.

Anyway, here is the article: (it can be found at http://www.67wasbest.com

An "insider" on a White Sox message Board, last night posted calling for an imminent trade of Nomar Garciaparra, Trot Nixon, Scott Williamson and a top Sox prospect, for Magglio Ordonez, Jose Valentin, and a mid level prospect. While I find the particulars of this deal a little hard to accept, I don't find the basic premise beyond reason.

I had written often of my suspecting Nomar was "No More"! I won't go into particulars as I know no more than most of you reading this. It's just a feeling that I have.

There has been quite a bit of discussion on starting the year with him, let him play here in his option year and let him earn his big contract. I think the Sox brass fear this could happen, which would be bad, as they really don't want him, because they still have their eye on a bigger prize!

If Nomar stays on and has the year he is capable of, then the Sox are all but obligated to extend him. That will appeal to many in Red Sox Nation, but it is not what "The Plan" calls for in the long run. They need and want ARod; at some point, they will get him! We can't have Nomar standing there with his shiny new $17 mil contract with ARod on the horizon...No, they can't have that.

He must be moved before the season! Let's get what we can and get going on the rest. So here we have one of the suspected options rumored to be playing itself out. I can see Nomar and Trot for Mags and Valentin straight up, Everyone is in their last contract year, at worst, it takes care of a self inflicted headache for the Sox! Valentin is not Nomar, but Trot is not Magglio. In this scenario, the ChiSox would get the slightly better side of the deal. And yes, I have looked at OPS, VORP, Win Shares and every other statistical measure that can be applied. I just see the need to move Nomar as more acute than many of you, at this time.

Now, if Williamson is going in this deal, we better be getting Cotts back. Williamson has high value and should never be a toss in on a deal, he is worth a good prospect. Why the Chicago poster called for the Sox to be offering the premier prospect is beyond me as I see us giving greater value before the prospects are considered.

Now the question becomes how do we turn Valentin and his $5 mil salary into ARod, and move Manny?

The Dodgers are a team that has potential. They have a weighty contract of their own in Darren Driefort. Now keep your eye on our lineup at the end of this and not the players in this trade. We move Manny to LA for Driefort, Perez and Miller. We then package Driefort, Perez and Valentin for ARod.

If you fear the Dodgers losing too much pitching, they still have a rotation of Nomo, Ishi, Alvarez, Jackson and Mullen. With Gagne, Mota and Shuey in the pen. Ashby also in the wings.

LA gets a huge bat for what amounts to Miller as they want to move Driefort and Perez anyway. Shedding Drieforts average $12 mil per year, for the next two years, is the key and the answer to why they wouldn't take him when dangled free earlier. You need one bad contract to match another bad contract.

Texas gets a SS and two pitchers for the price of ARod. They are immediately better as Perez is the #1 and Driefort would be the #2 in their rotation.

ChiSox get SS, RF and closer and save a few $$$

In the end, the Sox wind up with ARod, Ordonez, Cotts and Miller, so we make out pretty good in it all. We are then free to pursue Jay Payton. Failing to get Payton, we would have to trade for a LF (Jenkins, from Mil?)

Obviously, I still believe!!!

All you pale hose fans are welcome to join our discussions on this, although you guys are much more keen than most of our posters.

67WasBest
01-10-2004, 02:24 AM
The Red Sox are not focused on marketing to Red Sox nation or the US for that matter. The don't compete for our affections and have us locked in as a fan base.

They are after the International market that comes with MLB broadcasts worldwide over the Rupert Murdoch owned worldwide satellite network. If you guys haven't been discussing this deal and its ramifications, your missing some big big $$$ in the future.

As it stands today, teams share all revenue from tickets, concessions and parking. They also share all merchandise sold in the uS and Canada. Everything sold in other parts of the world are 100% to the team, this is one way G$ has kept his money flows so high!

67WasBest
01-10-2004, 02:44 AM
I just found this and boy does it fit right in line with what I have been writing: This is from AP and is copied from the 1/9/04 Boston Globe:

LOS ANGELES -- Shawn Green took grounders at first base during the Los Angeles Dodgers' first winter workout Friday, saying he was willing to change positions if it would help the team.

"Outfield is something I've been doing my whole life. It's something I need to be ready for," he said of a possible move to first. "It's a huge transition. If that's the case, I'm ready to put the time in."

VC Edit: Can you please post links, not entire articles, it is a violation of copyright laws to do so.

EDIT: Sorry on the story, Never happen again, my bad:

Here is the link, also not the other players present...why Driefort? Auditioning maybe?

Other big leaguers who attended Friday's workout were reliever Eric Gagne, the NL Cy Young Award winner last season; starters Jeff Weaver and Darren Dreifort, and outfielders Green and Dave Roberts.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2004/01/09/shawn_green_might_move_to_first_base/

joecrede
01-10-2004, 04:18 AM
Look at the numbers. The difference between Garciaparra/Valentin is about the same as the difference between Ordonez/Nixon.

At best the Sox are improved marginally by this trade which is less an indictment of this trade as it is an indictment of those who think this trade makes the Sox a contender.

dickallen15
01-10-2004, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Look at the numbers. The difference between Garciaparra/Valentin is about the same as the difference between Ordonez/Nixon.

At best the Sox are improved marginally by this trade which is less an indictment of this trade as it is an indictment of those who think this trade makes the Sox a contender.

That's true, but if this trade is true, the White Sox also add Williamson, much needed in the bullpen.

miker
01-10-2004, 08:04 AM
We're over 100...where's the tomato? :D:

IF this happens, are the White Sox really a better team with an out-of-Fenway Nomar?

voodoochile
01-10-2004, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by 67WasBest
Nice forum you folks have here, many knowledgable posters. I run a website, chat and forum for Red Sox fans and wrote a large piece on this today...

Hey, welcome aboard! :D:

Quite a collection of other team fans we are gathering here.

voodoochile
01-10-2004, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Look at the numbers. The difference between Garciaparra/Valentin is about the same as the difference between Ordonez/Nixon.

At best the Sox are improved marginally by this trade which is less an indictment of this trade as it is an indictment of those who think this trade makes the Sox a contender.

It might not make the Sox a contender, but it will get them under budget without hurting the team substantially.

67WasBest
01-10-2004, 10:06 AM
Thanks...I lived in Chicago for 4 years from 1990 to 1994, it's still my favorite American city. Lived at Briar and Sheridan, at Belmont Harbor. Had many friends from Beverly, most were ChiSox fans so I became a ChiSox fan as much as a fan of that team from the northside, I was at the 2nd last old Commiskey game and the 2nd new Comiskey game. Watched McDowell and Clemens battle one night in 30 degree temps...brrrrr.

I think Otis is on to something here, even if the exact particulars don't completely match up. Nomar and Nixon for Mags and Valentin is a pretty fair and even trade, IMO. ChiSox get a lower cost package and BoSox get rid of their Nomie headache (self inflicted I might add).

There is so much in this media deal that ties in to this, I can't recap all we have been working on over on my site, but suffice it to say, the pending sale of the Dodgers to McCourt (a Boston guy and huge Sox fan) is playing in here in a huge way.

Both Sox franchises have two sets of number projections. One shows where they are today, with no DSS and worldwide satellite package. It has a value of about $240 million per year in revenue for the Red Sox, not sure about ChiSox.

The second shows the projections based on the worldwide TV deal happening. For the Red Sox we put this number closer to the $350 mil per year mark, as the Sox reap the benefits of a worldwide Red Sox nation subscription base, and the sales of merchandise that will surely spin from their regularly being featured on MLB nightly broadcasts to the world.

As I mentioned above, sales of merchandise outside of North America is a direct dollar to the team whose name is on the jersey, cap, or nicknack. Shielded completely from revenue sharing! That makes these very attractive $$$$. The Red Sox have an advantage in that they own their cable station NESN. With Tom Werner, the creator of the Cosby Show, in charge, they have a consummate Hollywood Insider to take advantage of the 2005 Digital Broadcasting arena.

Originally posted by voodoochile
Hey, welcome aboard! :D:

Quite a collection of other team fans we are gathering here.

67WasBest
01-10-2004, 10:12 AM
For KW this is about filling 3 roster spots with A caliber ballplayers while giving up 2 A caliber ballplayers.

Mags, Valintin, Nomar and Nixon are all in the top 5 at thier respective positions. Williamson has lights out stuff, when not distracted by the near death medical issues his wife and child went through.

Cotts, I'm sure will be tough to give up, but there are many arms in the ChiSox system and the arm returning will be one to 1.5 yrs later to arrive.

ChiSox fit under thier budget number and are very competitive in a weakened Central division. Twins are decimated, Royals will be tough, but ChiSox should be right there!

Originally posted by voodoochile
It might not make the Sox a contender, but it will get them under budget without hurting the team substantially.

joecrede
01-10-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
It might not make the Sox a contender, but it will get them under budget without hurting the team substantially.

Actually, I *think* the salaries would be a wash.

67WasBest
01-10-2004, 01:37 PM
Not quite...

Nomar is 11.5
Nixon will make 5.5 to 6 this year
'
Worst case is 17.5 mil

Mags and Valentin are at 19 mil

Williamson should come in around 3 to 3.5 so for 21 mil, you fill 3 slots, and where else would you get a closer for 2 mil (the difference between the 3 RS players vs Mags and Valentin)?

Originally posted by joecrede
Actually, I *think* the salaries would be a wash.

joecrede
01-10-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by 67WasBest
Not quite...

Nomar is 11.5
Nixon will make 5.5 to 6 this year
'
Worst case is 17.5 mil

Mags and Valentin are at 19 mil

Williamson should come in around 3 to 3.5 so for 21 mil, you fill 3 slots, and where else would you get a closer for 2 mil (the difference between the 3 RS players vs Mags and Valentin)?

Dealing Ordonez, adding payroll, and not aquiring a SP? The more I think about it the less I like the deal. Williamson @ $3.5M is too much because he'd be a set up guy here. Marte is the closer.

67WasBest
01-10-2004, 01:55 PM
I could actually be wrong in how the ChiSox are planning on using Williamson. He lobbied BoSox brass hard to get a starter slot. He wants to start so maybe that is what this is all about, Williamson, being a starter for you.

Originally posted by joecrede
Dealing Ordonez, adding payroll, and not aquiring a SP? The more I think about it the less I like the deal. Williamson @ $3.5M is too much because he'd be a set up guy here. Marte is the closer.

Fenway
01-10-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
WOw, that's my first time reading another teams fan site. It's so interesting to me how all their fans seem to like their GM. I think the opposite could be said here.



How many GMs do this?

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/music/other_stories/images/03501764.gif

but watch out for the lead singer

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/music/other_stories/images/03501763.gif

CWSGuy406
01-10-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
Magg's isn't a "marketable" because his English is poor. Plus, Nomar's a star.

Let's not forget, we're giving up a B defensive RF for an A defensive SS.

What's been wrong with Magglio's RF play the last couple of years? He plays a real solid RF...

RichH55
01-10-2004, 03:01 PM
I like this deal...and it does make sense(No Cotts like Boston fans might like)

My main worry is that Nomar might not be the player he once was since the injury.....I know about the .260 on average thing...or .290 and .240 and an injury year over 3 years....But his peak was .360 and he never was a walk machine....even at .290 he's quite a ways away from his peak value where he made his reputation

Also, lets not forget that being a fan favorite in Boston helps the reputation

All the negatives being said...I like the deal

Shame it couldnt have been done earlier...possibly deal for Carlos Guillen (Could play 2B)

TaylorStSox
01-10-2004, 03:12 PM
I didn't say he was poor, actually far from it. I rate Maggs as a "B" right fielder because he doesn't have the tools to be an A. He makes up for that with positioning and instincts.

jabrch
01-10-2004, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
What's been wrong with Magglio's RF play the last couple of years? He plays a real solid RF...

There is nothing wrong with being called a "B" RF is there? Assume you go A - F, a B is fairly solid. Maggs isn't Vlad-like, but he is good.

Fenway
01-10-2004, 03:22 PM
BTW a warm welcome to those of you who have discussed the deal over at redsoxnation.net (http://forums.redsoxnation.net/index.php?showtopic=965)

Just want to say that my times in the old Comiskey were great memories and I found the fans there as good as any in baseball, which I will not say about the yahoos who visit 1060 W Addison.
(I have seen more passion in fans in Pawtucket than Wrigley)

I just wish that someday you will find an owner with a heart like Veeck and a wallet like Bill Gates.

CWSGuy406
01-10-2004, 03:24 PM
I wouldn't mind if this deal fell through. I'd actually like it a lot, especially if we can then turn over Nomar to LA for Pitching, two out of these three or maybe all three: Miller, Perez, Mota.

If Kenny can move Chicago, then to LA, I would be pretty happy going into the season with a rotation and starting lineup of:

Buerhle, Garland, Loaiza, Perez, Diaz/Schoen. (or a FA pitcher from money, Ponson, Maddux)

a bullpen of

Marte, Wunsch, Politte, Marte, Williamson, Koch, Wright (I really hope he's not starting, but rather a reliever.)

and finally

C Olivo
1B Thomas/Konerko
2B Harris (ugh.)
SS Uribe (ugh.)
3B Crede
RF Nixon
CF Rowand/Borchard
LF Lee

The lineup doesn't look too good, but I can be somewhat happy going into the season with that.

Rex Hudler
01-10-2004, 03:28 PM
Just want to say that my times in the old Comiskey were great memories and I found the fans there as good as any in baseball, which I will not say about the yahoos who visit 1060 W Addison.

AssKisser! LOL

Fenway
01-10-2004, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
AssKisser! LOL

I'm dead serious, and I lived far north where it was actually faster to drive to County Stadium than Comiskey (W Rogers Park).
In the 80's there the Train from Howard went to the other 35th St station and the extra block and a half was interesting.

The new park is (deleted), what really is missing is a bar like the old McCuddys.

It always bugged me that Jake and Elwood were Cubs fans since they grew up in an orphanage on the far South Side...

67WasBest
01-10-2004, 03:43 PM
Been reading how many of you are seeking a CF. Logical with Lee moving in behind Mags. So I wonder if Nixon is not the player you spin in this deal?

Say to LA for Roberts and a prospect?

jabrch
01-10-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by 67WasBest
Been reading how many of you are seeking a CF. Logical with Lee moving in behind Mags. So I wonder if Nixon is not the player you spin in this deal?

Say to LA for Roberts and a prospect?

Unless one of those prospects is Miller or Jackson, I'd have no interest in that. Roberts is an injury waiting to happen.

Tragg
01-10-2004, 04:44 PM
The problems with this trade are:
1)It makes no sense to sign Nomar long-term. At $58 million dollars, we simply can't afford a $10mill +player-it gives us no flexibility.

2)Damon makes 7.5 mill-that would be absurd. Same problem as above

3)It only makes sense with Nixon at $4 million, in which case we would essentially get Nixon and Williamson for a pitching prospect.

Re Roberts, the precise player we DON'T need-another free swinger with no power. I realize our manager isn't one for walking, but it would be amazing what a couple of OBP guys could do to our O,with all of the power that we have.

Rex Hudler
01-10-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
The problems with this trade are:
3)It only makes sense with Nixon at $4 million, in which case we would essentially get Nixon and Williamson for a pitching prospect.



Nixon will make at least $5 million this year. $4 million was his 2003 salary.

Kid T
01-11-2004, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by MarkV
Defensively, Jose and Nomar are the same guy. Both have the same range and Jose has a bit stronger arm. They make the same amount of errors. Offensively, Nomar has been a .260 hitter on the road over the last three years and he's been on the decline the last few years since his wrist injury. Given Jose's propensity to hook balls just in front of the foul pole, his power numbers would dramatically increase with the short porch in Fenway. Plus, with the Green Monster, a lot of the flyouts he normally has righthanded would be hits, increasing his average. In Fenway, he could be a .270, 30-35 HR, 70-90 RBI guy. Plus his salary is $7 mil less than Nomar's. You don't need to include Maggs in the deal. Trade Jose, Borchard, and a mid-level minor leaguer for Nomar. Then trade Nomar and another guy (try to package Koch) to the Angels for Jarrod Washburn, Francisco Rodriguez, and David Eckstein. They have seven starters, so you can get Washburn and Eckstein replaces Valentin, plus he becomes your leadoff guy. With Washburn, you get a #1 type guy, and you get a young stud in the pen with K-Rod. Plus, Washburn, K-Rod, and Eckstein combine to make around what Valentin is making, and they all have at least a couple of years before they become free agents. With the move, you fill three holes and (if you can move at least half of Koch's salary) you have money left to use to get Maggs signed to a new contract, keeping him here for the next 4-5 years.

Kenny, are you reading this?


Wait, why not suggest a trade to Oakland, say Konerko, Harris, and Uribe for Zito, Mulder, and Hudson? You have to trade value for value. Nobody else wants your spare parts for their all-stars. Frankly, the proposed trade already appears to favor the WS. Despite the opinions of some on this board, Garciaparra is a big improvement over Valentin (my evidence: which one needs to be platooned?). A better argument is that Trot Nixon may be the equivalent of Magglio. I would personally favor Magglio, but not by the margin of Nomar over Valentin. Add Scott Williamson in and this trade starts to look a little lopsided.

fquaye149
01-11-2004, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Kid T
Wait, why not suggest a trade to Oakland, say Konerko, Harris, and Uribe for Zito, Mulder, and Hudson? You have to trade value for value. Nobody else wants your spare parts for their all-stars. Frankly, the proposed trade already appears to favor the WS. Despite the opinions of some on this board, Garciaparra is a big improvement over Valentin (my evidence: which one needs to be platooned?). A better argument is that Trot Nixon may be the equivalent of Magglio. I would personally favor Magglio, but not by the margin of Nomar over Valentin. Add Scott Williamson in and this trade starts to look a little lopsided.


that is almost as insane...scratch that, it is MORE insane than those who said nomar is not much better than jose

soxwon
01-11-2004, 10:42 AM
Enough Talk of this trade.Is it Going to happen?
When is it going to happen? Its nice to talk but I want action!!!
I thought KW said we were set till spring?
I never bought into it!!!!
If we go ANOTHEr week of Talk, ill be upset lets pull this off SOON.
The cubs are gonna sign Maddux by next weekend we need to pull this off THIS WEEK.
Who agrees- no more chatter-Lets deal.

MarqSox
01-11-2004, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Kid T
Wait, why not suggest a trade to Oakland, say Konerko, Harris, and Uribe for Zito, Mulder, and Hudson? You have to trade value for value. Nobody else wants your spare parts for their all-stars. Frankly, the proposed trade already appears to favor the WS. Despite the opinions of some on this board, Garciaparra is a big improvement over Valentin (my evidence: which one needs to be platooned?). A better argument is that Trot Nixon may be the equivalent of Magglio. I would personally favor Magglio, but not by the margin of Nomar over Valentin. Add Scott Williamson in and this trade starts to look a little lopsided.
Contrary to quay's opinion, you're right on, Kid. This trade does favor the Pale Hose (though not by a huge margin), and KW would be smart to take it.

A. Cavatica
01-11-2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Konerko, Harris, and Uribe for Zito, Mulder, and Hudson

Then they'd have to take Uribe off the cover of the Media Guide.

Deadguy
01-11-2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Kid T
You have to trade value for value. Nobody else wants your spare parts for their all-stars.

In this case, the White Sox have the upper hand in negotiations, since the Red Sox are desperate to move Nomar, while the White Sox aren't necessarilly desperate to move Magglio or Valentin. That's why this trade is skewed in favor of the White Sox, as it should be. The Red Sox are much more depserate to get this deal finalized than the White Sox.

If this trade doesn't go down, no big deal for the White Sox. For the Red Sox, they'd then have to scramble to search for other teams where they can move Nomar to, and still receive impact players that can produce in 2004.

This deal allows the Red Sox to move Garciaparra, and receive two guys who can produce, in Ordonez and Valentin.

According to baseballprosectus.com, Jose Valentin had a Wins above Replacement value of 5.8, while Nomar had a Wins above replacement value of 8.1 in 2003.

Magglio had a WARP value of 9.5 in 2003, while Trot had a WARP of 6.8.

Looking at the differences in terms of replacement value, the Red Sox actually come out on top. The incentive in this deal is then Scott Williamson.

Try to find another team where the Red Sox can trade Nomar, and get a deal that can satisfy both clubs as well as this deal can.

fquaye149
01-11-2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Contrary to quay's opinion, you're right on, Kid. This trade does favor the Pale Hose (though not by a huge margin), and KW would be smart to take it.

i meant his assertion that nixon and magglio are equitable

Rex Hudler
01-11-2004, 12:38 PM
I don't buy that Boston is desparate to trade Nomar. If he plays in Boston this year, he'll be a professional and all will be fine.

Brian26
01-11-2004, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Kid T
A better argument is that Trot Nixon may be the equivalent of Magglio.

You had me up to this point. Then, your credibility just fell out the window and down 18 stories to the pavement.

soxwon
01-11-2004, 01:18 PM
marqsox are you going to Soxfest?

spataro51
01-11-2004, 02:01 PM
Hey Otis, got anymore info for us. You are getting my hopes up. I hope this deal goes through. UpDATEs?

dickallen15
01-11-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I don't buy that Boston is desparate to trade Nomar. If he plays in Boston this year, he'll be a professional and all will be fine.

I totally agree. And if they are worried they will only have him 1 year, the guys they would be getting for him are also only signed through this coming season. Unless Nomar said he wanted out, I don't understand this proposal from a Red Sox standpoint.

cornball
01-11-2004, 02:23 PM
If it happens, it will be anounced the same day the Bears anounce their new head coach....so we will have to wait awile longer. :D:

67WasBest
01-11-2004, 03:33 PM
From our side, it is clear they are trading these two. The evidence is mounting and while some can call it circumstantial, we feel it is not an accident.

What I am referring to a series of PR gaffs by the Sox. The first was a callin by Theo Epstien to a Rock and Roll station morning show, where he said they were pretty well set for ST (sounds like KW statement doesn't it). Anyway, this flies right in the face of thier philosopht to not discuss strategy, EVER! To us this was an indicator that something was coming.

The second was Masthead-gate. On Monday this past week, the masthead on redsox.com changed and all of a sudden, there was no manny and no Nomar, after a media firestorm, they added the pics to the new masthead.

The third was a NESN promo for their new Hot Stove show. Keep in mind, these guys own NESN. Well this promo runs for a good 45 seconds and there isn't one pic of Nomar or Manny to be found....every other player is, but why not the All Stars?

I think there is a real dislike for Nomar in our FO. The way have conducted themselves gives us every reason to believe they want him out.

Originally posted by Rex Hudler
I don't buy that Boston is desparate to trade Nomar. If he plays in Boston this year, he'll be a professional and all will be fine.

WinningUgly!
01-11-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by 67WasBest
From our side, it is clear they are trading these two. The evidence is mounting and while some can call it circumstantial, we feel it is not an accident.

What I am referring to a series of PR gaffs by the Sox. The first was a callin by Theo Epstien to a Rock and Roll station morning show, where he said they were pretty well set for ST (sounds like KW statement doesn't it). Anyway, this flies right in the face of thier philosopht to not discuss strategy, EVER! To us this was an indicator that something was coming.

The second was Masthead-gate. On Monday this past week, the masthead on redsox.com changed and all of a sudden, there was no manny and no Nomar, after a media firestorm, they added the pics to the new masthead.

The third was a NESN promo for their new Hot Stove show. Keep in mind, these guys own NESN. Well this promo runs for a good 45 seconds and there isn't one pic of Nomar or Manny to be found....every other player is, but why not the All Stars?

I think there is a real dislike for Nomar in our FO. The way have conducted themselves gives us every reason to believe they want him out.

The whitesox.com masthead doesn't have any players on it.:o: Pretty much sums up the state of our organization.:(:

67WasBest
01-11-2004, 03:49 PM
I'd just like to expand this deal from our end.

Contrary to Theo's statement of Williamson wanting to be with the red Sox in 2004 and eagerly looking forward to his role as Foulke's #1 setup man, I don't buy it. Three weeks ago he was dead set on starting or closing, with you he becomes a starter and gets his wish.

I also see a team that is showing every indication of moving Garciapara and obtaining ARod. I honestly believe they don't want to take a chance on Nomar having a monster year and messing with the chance of bringing in ARod.

This team is also going to move Manny. Notice Green moving to 1B for LA,...who did they get to warrant that move? Dodgers don't want Perez any longer and Driefort and his $24 mil over two years is a crushing contract, by taking manny, they at least get production for that money. LA would most certainly have to include Miller in this deal.

I see Valentin and the LA pitchers, Driefort and Perez, going to TX for ARod. This gives them a quality SS, a #1 and a #2 for their rotation, and all are gone within 2 years if they wish to rebuild anew. It is Texas only way to get the pitching it needs as Ponson is all but signed by baltimore now.

Originally posted by Deadguy
In this case, the White Sox have the upper hand in negotiations, since the Red Sox are desperate to move Nomar, while the White Sox aren't necessarilly desperate to move Magglio or Valentin. That's why this trade is skewed in favor of the White Sox, as it should be. The Red Sox are much more depserate to get this deal finalized than the White Sox.

If this trade doesn't go down, no big deal for the White Sox. For the Red Sox, they'd then have to scramble to search for other teams where they can move Nomar to, and still receive impact players that can produce in 2004.

This deal allows the Red Sox to move Garciaparra, and receive two guys who can produce, in Ordonez and Valentin.

According to baseballprosectus.com, Jose Valentin had a Wins above Replacement value of 5.8, while Nomar had a Wins above replacement value of 8.1 in 2003.

Magglio had a WARP value of 9.5 in 2003, while Trot had a WARP of 6.8.

Looking at the differences in terms of replacement value, the Red Sox actually come out on top. The incentive in this deal is then Scott Williamson.

Try to find another team where the Red Sox can trade Nomar, and get a deal that can satisfy both clubs as well as this deal can.

Kid T
01-11-2004, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
You had me up to this point. Then, your credibility just fell out the window and down 18 stories to the pavement.


I suspect in the end, we will just have to agree to disagree on this. However, this is the reasoning for my statement:

Career OPS and ZR using RF stats only (stats from ESPN)

Nixon: .862 (in 2347 AB's) with a ZR of .907
Ordonez: .892 (in 3605 AB's) with a ZR of .894

whereas
Garciaparra: .925 (in 3812 AB's) with a ZR of .835
Valentin: .775 (in 4392 AB's) with a ZR of .850

I don't have yearly statistics handy to look at subsets (eg breakdown vs. LH/RH or last x years) nor do I feel the need to. It is my opinion that Garciaparra is a huge upgrade over Valentin while Ordonez and Nixon are pretty close (although I would personally rate Ordonez as a slight upgrade over Nixon). Again, we can (and probably will) disagree - but I use these selected (and perhaps baised) statistics as an indication of an objective evaluation.

mac9001
01-11-2004, 04:51 PM
Comparing career OPS is an unfair comparison. The time period is just too long. I'd say you have to limit it to the last 3 seasons in which case:

Nixon: .883
Ordonez: .939


Garciaparra: .872
Valentin: .803

I'd say Ordonez and Garciaparra are considerably better than their counterparts.

Also, going even deeper:

Nixon: 1 Season with a .900+ OPS
Ordonez: .4 Seasons with a .900+ OPS

Nixon: 1 Season with a .300+ AVG (Only 441 AB's)
Ordonez: 5 Seasons with a .300+ AVG

Nixon: 2 Season with a .500+ SLG
Ordonez: 5 Seasons with a .500+ SLG



Saying Ordonez is a "slight upgrade" is is completely wrong, as he is a huge upgrade. Especially given their ages (Both 29).

67WasBest
01-11-2004, 04:51 PM
I agree with you on this, Nixon had a .969 OPS last season to mags .911. Granted Nixon was somewhat shielded from lefties, but he still played in 143 games. They are much closer in value than many on this board give credit for.

Originally posted by Kid T
I suspect in the end, we will just have to agree to disagree on this. However, this is the reasoning for my statement:

Career OPS and ZR using RF stats only (stats from ESPN)

Nixon: .862 (in 2347 AB's) with a ZR of .907
Ordonez: .892 (in 3605 AB's) with a ZR of .894

whereas
Garciaparra: .925 (in 3812 AB's) with a ZR of .835
Valentin: .775 (in 4392 AB's) with a ZR of .850

I don't have yearly statistics handy to look at subsets (eg breakdown vs. LH/RH or last x years) nor do I feel the need to. It is my opinion that Garciaparra is a huge upgrade over Valentin while Ordonez and Nixon are pretty close (although I would personally rate Ordonez as a slight upgrade over Nixon). Again, we can (and probably will) disagree - but I use these selected (and perhaps baised) statistics as an indication of an objective evaluation.

Rex Hudler
01-11-2004, 05:15 PM
What the hell is a ZR??

Daver
01-11-2004, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
What the hell is a ZR??

Zone Rating.

Rex Hudler
01-11-2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Zone Rating.

Pardon my ignorance.. care to explain zone rating? How it is derived? Why is it supposedly useful?

mac9001
01-11-2004, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Pardon my ignorance.. care to explain zone rating? How it is derived? Why is it supposedly useful?

This should answer your question--->>http://www.bigbadbaseball.com/glossary/zone.html

Daver
01-11-2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Pardon my ignorance.. care to explain zone rating? How it is derived? Why is it supposedly useful?


I have no clue,as far as I can tell it merely gives the statheads something else to keep track of.

Win1ForMe
01-11-2004, 08:01 PM
I have no interest in the trade unless KW signs Nomar long term or spins him to the Dodgers for Greg Miller and Perez (and maybe their CF prospect).

Rex Hudler
01-11-2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Daver
I have no clue,as far as I can tell it merely gives the statheads something else to keep track of.

You're right...... its for people with way too much time on their hands.

Zednem700
01-11-2004, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
You're right...... its for people with way too much time on their hands.

Wow, glad to see ignorance is as popular as ever.

Rex Hudler
01-11-2004, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Zednem700
Wow, glad to see ignorance is as popular as ever.

Thanks for the compliment!

spanishwhite
01-12-2004, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by Kid T
I suspect in the end, we will just have to agree to disagree on this. However, this is the reasoning for my statement:

Career OPS and ZR using RF stats only (stats from ESPN)

Nixon: .862 (in 2347 AB's) with a ZR of .907
Ordonez: .892 (in 3605 AB's) with a ZR of .894

whereas
Garciaparra: .925 (in 3812 AB's) with a ZR of .835
Valentin: .775 (in 4392 AB's) with a ZR of .850

I don't have yearly statistics handy to look at subsets (eg breakdown vs. LH/RH or last x years) nor do I feel the need to. It is my opinion that Garciaparra is a huge upgrade over Valentin while Ordonez and Nixon are pretty close (although I would personally rate Ordonez as a slight upgrade over Nixon). Again, we can (and probably will) disagree - but I use these selected (and perhaps baised) statistics as an indication of an objective evaluation.

My only quarrel is your "slightly better" definition of Ordonez and Nixon.

If you look at the last two years of ZR for Ordonez and Nixon, Ordonez has been better at being a RF. Not to mention the fact he has more assists less errors and a better fielding pct. Ordonez had one bad year that brought down his career ZR.

Meanwhile Nixon has NEVER had a season of 30 hrs, 100 rbis, and this year was the first that he hit over .300.

Maggs has had four consecutive seasons of 30/110/.300. That streak was interupted this year when he only hit 29 hrs and 99 rbis which would be career highs for Nixon.

You could make the arguement that Nixon hasnt had enough abs
to match Maggs numbers, but then why hasnt he had enough abs? Is he injury prone or do the RSox shield him from lefties? Either way Maggs is durable and able to bat against anybody.

Plus Maggs has been a two time allstar, plus he has stolen 82 bases compared to what from Nixon? He is better in every aspect than Nixon(in most areas barely, but nonetheless better).

U are using career statistics. And those are very deceptive.
The Big Hurt has a career avg. of .310, but the last three years he has batted .221,.252,.267. Do you think he'll hit 300 or 260 next year?

Otherwise I dont think Valentin is not comparable to Garciaparra in anything except power and thats it.