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depy48
01-08-2004, 10:36 AM
I've seen that there is a lot of negative attitudes towards Paul Konerko. A lot of posters here want him off the whitesox. I have to disagree, i rally behind the guy every time he steps to the plate. Isnt this the Paul Konerko who was in the all star game no more than a year removed, the Paul Konerko who hit two doubles in that all star game, and also almost won the hr derby? Konerko had a piss poor first half last season, no doubt, but he hit well in the second half. Ever since 2000, it has appeared, to me at least, that Paulie has bled whitesox colors. When the "paulie" chant went around Comiskey after we beat the Twins in extra innings, i thought that whitesox fans, even the most pessimestic of us, allowed Paulie back in our hearts. For me at least, it wouldnt feel right to win a playoff series without Paul Konerko.

duke of dorwood
01-08-2004, 10:38 AM
I have been a Konerko supporter. He does not hurt you at first. We have other dead weight that could be moved.

HITMEN OF 77
01-08-2004, 10:51 AM
I love Paulie too. IMO that homer against the Twins in extra innings was what put us on a roll and in the division race, had we lost that game who knows what could have happened the rest of the year.

TaylorStSox
01-08-2004, 10:53 AM
I'm all in favor of giving him a chance to return to form. Despite having a bad year offensively, he was still very effective in the field.

Don't pay attention to the Pauly bashers. I've noticed in my short time here that there are a handful of posters that are going to be negative about everything. Sometimes that pessimism becomes contagious.

Palehose13
01-08-2004, 10:54 AM
I love Paulie, but I think him and Koch should be moved. I would like to see Frank at first everyday and for at least the past 2 years Paulie has only been a half-season hitter. I'd miss him cause I think he's a great guy, but I think it would be better for this team if him and his salary were moved.

CubKilla
01-08-2004, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
I have been a Konerko supporter. He does not hurt you at first. We have other dead weight that could be moved.

I'd rather move Botch than PK..... especially with the lack of interest in both from the other MLB teams. Botch's salary and what he brings (or doesn't) to the team hurt the White Sox more than PK.

Hangar18
01-08-2004, 11:00 AM
Im a Paulie Fan ( i have his Konerko gray jersey).
but he was a HUMONGOUS disappointment, and He, Koch
and Manuel were chief reasons why we didnt win that division

miker
01-08-2004, 11:01 AM
For some reason (frustration) PK has turned into the whipping-boy for some WSI members. They cite his bad year in 2003 and his large paycheck.

I've always thought he played harder than many others. I also thought his problems last year were with his hitting mechanics which may or may not have been caused by injury.

If he snaps back into form and can play 1B everyday, we have one potential problem solved.

mdep524
01-08-2004, 11:05 AM
I agree with you guys, I still like Pauly. He's a good Chicago guy and a hard worker. He did suck Chis Sabo-style in '03, but he has no place to go but up. We couldn't get anything for him in a trade anyway.

Also, I don't think there is any way we can trade Koch at this point--especially with the Mets signing Looper. Looks like we're stuck with him.

34 Inch Stick
01-08-2004, 11:28 AM
My thinking on PK is that we should be behind him 100%. He isn't going to get moved this year. However if he does well this year there will be several teams interested in him with only 1 year left on the contract. Moving PK and losing Valentin and Koch free up enough money to sign Maggs to the long term contract that will keep him a Sox for the rest of his playing days.

Foulke You
01-08-2004, 11:29 AM
Wow, and here I thought I was alone in my support of Konerko. My only problem with the guy is his contract which isn't his fault, it was managment's. AND let's not forget that it is not his fault that the Sox feel they can't sign players until dumping his salary. There is nothing stopping the Sox from signing other players accept their own short-sightedness. I think his huge contract has become the symbol of White Sox front office ineptitude in the eyes of many WSI posters and this has caused some resentment towards Paulie.

We aren't going to trade Konerko with that contract so I hope he has a monster year for us next year similar to his 2002 first half. He is a likeable guy and suffered through a bad year in 2003. Here's to hoping he bounces back.

Dadawg_77
01-08-2004, 11:31 AM
I like Pauly, I like his personality. But I would like the Sox to move. He had major problems hitting breaking stuff from right handers last year. He is a platoon player, but when you have Frank Thomas, a platoon player isn't need nor warranted.

voodoochile
01-08-2004, 11:38 AM
Now I know what Frank haters feel like reading one of my posts... :D:

Not really, I don't hate Konerko, but I think he is vastly overpaid and is overrated in the field. I don't know if his bat will ever return to form - I obviously hope it does and realize that he will get a chance to prove it can, but would much prefer to move the contract. It's too much money to be paying a guy who isn't a potential HOF 1B and the Sox already have one of those...

npdempse
01-08-2004, 11:47 AM
Paulie's had one bad year, really. He's getting married this off-season, which will hopefully reduce his head case-ness, and he'll get to spend all spring and the season working with Greg Walker. I'd give at least 50/50 odds on him rebounding. And yeah, he seems like a really good guy, a team guy (and I even think calling out Frank was a team thing to do).

ssang
01-08-2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by HITMEN OF 77
I love Paulie too. IMO that homer against the Twins in extra innings was what put us on a roll and in the division race, had we lost that game who knows what could have happened the rest of the year.


Who knows what would have happened, you say. Well, I'm guessing that we still wouldn't have made the playoffs anyways! Had we lost that game....hell it don't matter. We didn't make the playoffs either way. Oh and Konerko is HORRIBLE, BAD, PATHETIC, SUCKS, STINKS, and he BLOWS! What is Pauile good at? Grounding into double plays. So he's got that going for him...which is nice.

Deadguy
01-08-2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by depy48
I've seen that there is a lot of negative attitudes towards Paul Konerko.

It's all deserved criticism.

A lot of posters here want him off the whitesox.

I'd like other things to happen to him in addition to that, but I won't go into them on this forum.

I have to disagree, i rally behind the guy every time he steps to the plate.

Whatever floats your boat, pal.

Isnt this the Paul Konerko who was in the all star game no more than a year removed,

Isn't this the same guy who had a FLUKE month in June of 2002, which landed him in the All Star game? He hit 12 homeruns that month. He has since hit just twice that many him the 9 playing months since then, so why has he gone into the tank since then?

Konerko had a piss poor first half last season, no doubt, but he hit well in the second half.

That's an understatement, to say the least. ESPN.com gave him the award of "LVP" at the All Star Break. He hit .180+ for half the season in the year when we needed him the most. We finished 4 games out of 1st place. If it wasn't for his rally killing GIDPs and pathetic performance in the 1st half, we might have had a chance at making the playoffs.


When the "paulie" chant went around Comiskey after we beat the Twins in extra innings, i thought that whitesox fans, even the most pessimestic of us, allowed Paulie back in our hearts.

That was the most pathetic thing I have ever witnessed. It just shows that not much is expected of this overpaid reject, and he is given a pass by the fans despite the fact that he has grossly underachieved since signing a fat contract. It will just add to his complacency towards trying to actually perform at his highest level, which is nothing to brag about in the first place. I will boo this reject everytime he comes to the plate until he can actually justify at least half of his salary.

For me at least, it wouldnt feel right to win a playoff series without Paul Konerko.

The ironic thing is, he's the anchor that's bringing this sinking ship down, and preventing us from finishing in first in the most pathetic division in baseball.

jabrch
01-08-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
My thinking on PK is that we should be behind him 100%. He isn't going to get moved this year. However if he does well this year there will be several teams interested in him with only 1 year left on the contract. Moving PK and losing Valentin and Koch free up enough money to sign Maggs to the long term contract that will keep him a Sox for the rest of his playing days.

NOTHING will free up enough money for JR to give Maggs 15mm per. It just isn't going to happen. Frank won't pay Maggs what he will want. And by watching the market (Sheff got 13 - partially deferred and Vlad is not getting any other offers besides Baltimore) I don't see Magglio getting what he wants (he turned down 4/48 already) next year from us even if we do free up the salary space. Frankly, if we have 15mm to spend on a player for next year, I'd rather we go and get a SP to be a front of the rotation guy. (Carrie Wood is a FA - wouldn't that piss the heck out of the Cubs?)

jabrch
01-08-2004, 11:53 AM
For me at least, it wouldnt feel right to win a playoff series without Paul Konerko.


Can't win with him - Can't kill him - Pass the Churros.

ssang
01-08-2004, 11:53 AM
I love what Deadguy has to say about Pathetic Paulie. I agree with everything. He deserves our boos at all times. Konerko sucks. He deserves all the negative attention that he can get.

Deadguy
01-08-2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by ssang
Oh and Konerko is HORRIBLE, BAD, PATHETIC, SUCKS, STINKS, and he BLOWS! What is Pauile good at? Grounding into doupbe plays. So he's got that going for him...which is nice.

Amen

TheRockinMT
01-08-2004, 12:03 PM
Paul Konerko might ground into a lot of DP's and I grind my teeth everytime he does, but the fellow is a team player and talented. He had a down year, but I am confident he will rebound. A bad year is not uncommon for players and generally they will return to form the next. What we need to do is not panic as fans or as a team. KW seems happy with Konerko and you know Paulie will be extra motivated come Spring Training and through the season.

Paulwny
01-08-2004, 12:03 PM
Yes let's have a love fest over a guy who sat on the bench week after week instead of asking to go to AAA for a few weeks to get his swing and mechanics corrected.

Foulke You
01-08-2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
The ironic thing is, he's the anchor that's bringing this sinking ship down, and preventing us from finishing in first in the most pathetic division in baseball.

I think you are overexaggerating. Konerko was one bust on a team that was a collective bust. We can sit here and debate who's fault the 2003 collapse was. Manuel, Konerko's first half, Koch, etc. There is nothing stopping the Sox from signing players. Lots of teams give players bad contracts and are able to overcome it. Think the Mets would like to have a mulligan on Mo Vaughn and Roger Cedeno? This won't stop them from being a player on the free agent market. The Yankees don't always take on the best contracts either but we all know they want to go out and win. In reality, there is only one anchor bringing this sinking ship down:

:reinsy
"Are you talking to me?"

Iwritecode
01-08-2004, 12:13 PM
I think most of us like Paul as a person. He seems like a real down-to-earch blue collar kind of guy that we can sit down and have a few beers with on a Friday night.

The problem is that the past year-and-a-half he really hasn't been earning that huge contract that KW gave him. It's really hard to figure out who to blame for it too. Do we blame KW for giving it to him or PK for not earning it after he got it?

I guess since it looks like he isn't going anywhere the only thing we can do is hope he returns to what he was doing the first half of 2002.

SpringfldFan
01-08-2004, 12:14 PM
Even when he was hitting at his best, those legs of his could really cripple the team. When he hit one of his many doubles, I could almost consider it a single because it would still take two hits to score him. What's worse is that I have seen more then a couple times during rallies where he would gum up the basepaths preventing guys behind him from advancing.

I honestly like the guy and his work ethic, but I really feel if he is ever going to be worth his paycheck as an offensive player, he has to become primarily a home run hitter rather than a doubles hitter.

hillbilly
01-08-2004, 12:27 PM
I honestly like the guy and his work ethic, but I really feel if he is ever going to be worth his paycheck as an offensive player, he has to become primarily a home run hitter rather than a doubles hitter.

PK has no work ethic...Thats why he had such a ****ty year. I said this before and I will say it again, I played college ball with Matt Herges brother, the RP from the Giants I think now, who happened to be PK's roomate in Los Angeles. He said PK was extremely lazy and all he did was watch tv and have a few beers. Sounds like a great guy to hang out with, but not a guy who you would expect to hit 30 HR's and hit .300. Probably why the Dodgers and Reds gave up on him. Why do you think he is the slowest man in baseball this side of edgar martinez. I personally like PK, but I don't even believe he will do anything in seasons to come unless he starts workin at it and not bein so damn lazy and cut down on the drinking. He's obviously not Babe Ruth. :gulp:

steff
01-08-2004, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by hillbilly
PK has no work ethic...Thats why he had such a ****ty year. I said this before and I will say it again, I played college ball with Matt Herges brother, the RP from the Giants I think now, who happened to be PK's roomate in Los Angeles. He said PK was extremely lazy and all he did was watch tv and have a few beers. Sounds like a great guy to hang out with, but not a guy who you would expect to hit 30 HR's and hit .300. Probably why the Dodgers and Reds gave up on him. Why do you think he is the slowest man in baseball this side of edgar martinez. I personally like PK, but I don't even believe he will do anything in seasons to come unless he starts workin at it and not bein so damn lazy and cut down on the drinking. He's obviously not Babe Ruth. :gulp:



What makes you think he is still like this...? I know plenty of people who were lazy ****s in college who are now - 10 years later - in the best athletic condition of their life.

I find your current assumption of his personal habits ignorant, extremely classless.. not to mention in very poor taste.

mike squires
01-08-2004, 12:34 PM
Tell us what you REALLY think Steff.

steff
01-08-2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by mike squires
Tell us what you REALLY think Steff.



I'm sorry.. I should just keep my yap shut..
But being something I have seen first hand - Paul out on the town - and it doesn't jive one bit with what hillbilly stated - especially since him and Jennifer have been together.

RKMeibalane
01-08-2004, 12:59 PM
Unless Konerko can be moved before the season starts, I think the Sox should give him 2004 to prove himself. If he can provide solid production in the middle of the lineup behind Frank and Maggs, then I don't see a problem with him being around. However, I do think that Frank should be playing first base more often, and that Konerko can move to DH for those games. If he isn't willing to do that, then other arrangments must be made.

FanOf14
01-08-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Unless Konerko can be moved before the season starts, I think the Sox should give him 2004 to prove himself. If he can provide solid production in the middle of the lineup behind Frank and Maggs, then I don't see a problem with him being around. However, I do think that Frank should be playing first base more often, and that Konerko can move to DH for those games. If he isn't willing to do that, then other arrangments must be made.

OMG...RK and I are agreeing about something in regards to PK...hell must be freezing over! :D:

Seriously though, I do agree 100% with this post.

Bobby Thigpen
01-08-2004, 01:26 PM
I like Pauly, and he is my favorite Sox by far. What I love is how everyone dismisses him by saying that he only had one good month or one half of a season in his life. He had pretty good numbers in 2000 and 2001 (298 & 282 BA, 21 &32 HRs, and 97 & 99 RBIs) each year. I have never understood how those who say these things can justify them when they see these stats.

I don't think the Sox should get rid of him. Based on past performance I would say the first half of last year and the second of 2002 were more of a fluke than the previous 2 and 1/2. I don't think they should dump him for second tier prospects just to dump his payroll. Yes he gets paid too much for his production, most baseball players do. Yes he's slow, but I wasn't aware that 1b was a place that you needed speedsters. And yes he grounds into quite a few DPs, but wasn't Maggs like second in the league in that stat last year? Why isn't everyone calling him GDP Maggs?

If the Sox were going to get rid of him for someone that would help them win, I'd be for it. But dumping for no other reason to clear salary is at this point stupid. Who are they going to sign with the freed up money?

joecrede
01-08-2004, 01:36 PM
Konerko at his very best is a league average or slightly above offensive first baseman on a team that should put Thomas at first everyday anyway. $8M is a lot of money to pay a DH that puts up his numbers

Bobby Thigpen
01-08-2004, 01:41 PM
$8M is a lot of money to pay a DH that puts up his numbers

Yes, his contract is ridiculous, but who is to blame for this? I certainly wouldn't turn down that kind of money if someone offered it to me. Yet, many on this website feel that we should somehow blame Pauly for signing the contract. I agree that is entirely too much money for anyone to make, but I certainly don't hate him for doing it as many people on here do.

Iwritecode
01-08-2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
And yes he grounds into quite a few DPs, but wasn't Maggs like second in the league in that stat last year? Why isn't everyone calling him GDP Maggs?

Actually GIDPK lead MLB last year with 28. Maggs and Lee were at #16 (along with 3 other guys) with 20. The difference is that those two made up for it with their avg, RBI's, Runs, OPS, etc...


Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
If the Sox were going to get rid of him for someone that would help them win, I'd be for it. But dumping for no other reason to clear salary is at this point stupid. Who are they going to sign with the freed up money?

I agree that dumping him just to lose salary may not be a great move, but there's a lot KW could do with an extra 8 million...

Iwritecode
01-08-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Yes, his contract is ridiculous, but who is to blame for this? I certainly wouldn't turn down that kind of money if someone offered it to me. Yet, many on this website feel that we should somehow blame Pauly for signing the contract. I agree that is entirely too much money for anyone to make, but I certainly don't hate him for doing it as many people on here do.

KW is partially to blame for giving it to him but he had no way of knowing his numbers would slip that badly that fast.

PK is partially to blame for not producing in comparison to what he is getting paid.

joecrede
01-08-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Yes, his contract is ridiculous, but who is to blame for this? I certainly wouldn't turn down that kind of money if someone offered it to me. Yet, many on this website feel that we should somehow blame Pauly for signing the contract. I agree that is entirely too much money for anyone to make, but I certainly don't hate him for doing it as many people on here do.

Williams is responsible for the contract. Konerko is responsible for the production.

SluggersAway
01-08-2004, 01:59 PM
I'd dump his salary, no questions asked.

There really is no upside to this guy, even if he does return to form, he still is not worth 8 million. He should play the next two years for free considering the highway robbery he got away with signing a huge contract and underperforming.

Even if he does start hitting again, he'll still be grounding into double plays, and slowing down the base running.

Letting him go for absolutely nothing is beneficial simply for what we wouldn't be getting in return. Addition via subtraction, you could say.

And to the poster who said Paulie getting married is going to help him become a better player. HAHAHAHA. Moron.

Anyway you slice it, his blue-collar attitude withstanding, PK is nothing but a drag.

Bobby Thigpen
01-08-2004, 02:00 PM
Williams is responsible for the contract. Konerko is responsible for the production.

Fine, what's he supposed to do, give money back because he had a crappy year?

but there's a lot KW could do with an extra 8 million...

What? Who's left?

Bobby Thigpen
01-08-2004, 02:02 PM
And to the poster who said Paulie getting married is going to help him become a better player. HAHAHAHA. Moron.

Why are they morons? Wasn't one of Franks' reasons for having some of his below standard seasons that he was having personal problems with his wife? Off the field issues affect a ballplayer immensely.

steff
01-08-2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Why are they morons? Wasn't one of Franks' reasons for having some of his below standard seasons that he was having personal problems with his wife? Off the field issues affect a ballplayer immensely.



Don't worry BT.. the comment is classic of someone who's steady is his his right hand.

Iwritecode
01-08-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
What? Who's left?

Not necessarily FA's...

Trades are a lot easier to work out when you are willing to take on salary from another team instead of having to worry about the money coming out even on both sides.

Just ask Jim Hendry about that...

Bobby Thigpen
01-08-2004, 02:10 PM
Trades are a lot easier to work out when you are willing to take on salary from another team instead of having to worry about the money coming out even on both sides.

True, but I read the gist of your comment to mean that you were in favor of dumping him outright to save money so that they could sign more FAs. Getting rid of him AND taking on salary are things I think you should reserve for putting in teal .

Deadguy
01-08-2004, 02:27 PM
I guess I'm one of the few people here who has a personal hatred for Konerko. I've had the misfortune of meeting him, and he was a total jack a$$. Perhaps he was just having a bad day or I just caught him off guard, but fans don't forget encounters like that.

He came across as someone who was arrogant, cocky, and had the rock star attitude without having done anything to justify that attitude.

I honestly think people just give him a pass about being a good teammate, having a good work ethic, being blue-collar, blah blah blah, because of the color of his skin.

And I'd being lying if I didn't say I also hate him for calling Thomas out in 2002. Like Joe Morgan said about that incident, he should have kept it in the clubhouse. If you have a problem with a teammate, then talk to him about it face to face. All Konerko did was create a PR disaster. I think Konerko was feeling arrogant and full of himself after his fluke performance in June of 2002, which is why he felt justified in handling the situation like that. The fact that he has since fallen flat on his face and embarassed himself since then would seem like poetic justice, if it wasn't at the expense of our winning percentage.

And this is just speculation on my part, but after David Wells called Thomas out in 2001, reportedly some teammate(s) high fived Wells for making those comments, and my guess is that GIDPK was one of those a-holes. Someone mentioned in another thread that Konerko is friends with Wells, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's true.

Despite all that, Thomas didn't have one negative thing to say about Konerko's performance during the season, and reportedly even worked with Konerko to help him get back on track. This didn't get much mention from the press or the loudmouths on talk radio, but I guess Thomas is a pretty forgiving person and likes Konerko for some reason. I don't however, and hope the Sox dump his carcass on anyone who is dumb enough to take him. I personally hate the guy, and will be very disappointed if he is still on the team come ST, and I probably won't bother purchasing any tickets this season and making a road trip up to Chi-town, like I ussually do 5-10 times a year. Not a big loss to the White Sox in revenue, but I don't have much expendable revenue, as I'm just a poor graduate student who works 20 hours a week, and I'd hate to think some of that money is giong to someone like Konerko.

As far as his work ethic goes, I have no clue how hard he works off the field. I can look at guys like Valentin, Magglio, and Thomas and see that they spend some time in the weight room. Konerko, however, seems to have the build of a Verizon Wirelesss salesman. You'd think getting all that money would motivate him to spend some extra time in the gym, but it obviously didn't. And David Wells has made it well known he has a poor work ethic, so I wonder if his friend Konerko shares the same philosophy.

Deadguy
01-08-2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by steff
Don't worry BT.. the comment is classic of someone who's steady is his his right hand.

What BS. Don't make a blanket statement about 50% of the population. Some guys mental attitudes improve as a result of being in a steady relationship, some don't.

SluggersAway
01-08-2004, 02:58 PM
Wow, classy lady.

Thank your parents for me, i'm sure they are proud.

If you must know I'm pretty steady with my left and my right.

The army had me learn to write with my left hand too.

Healthy bodily functions are important, we shouldn't resort to cheap comments I last took serious in second grade.

I was simply pointing to the obvious fact that we have absolutely no clue what kind of effect a marriage will have on PK.

Pk is the one with the performance issue and we could guess the reasons till we're blue in the face. I'd rather cut our losses than watch millions of dollars go down the drain (but then again i'm not a government bureaucrat).

Let's raise the standards of civility and discourse. The world has raised too many wimps and brutes as it is.

And to the youth lamenting the fact that he can't drink away sox losses at the local tavern. Find a productive outlet. Maybe open a book, study austrian economics, latin, german etc. It'll be much more beneficial in the long-run.

MisterB
01-08-2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Williams is responsible for the contract. Konerko is responsible for the production.


Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Fine, what's he supposed to do, give money back because he had a crappy year?

Well, usually if you don't perform the job you were paid to do, you get fired. In baseball you get released or traded.

BTW, interesting that KW gets blamed for giving PK 'too big' a contract, yet if he had made a lower (more reasonable) offer that was rejected, KW would be accused of trying to 'lowball' Paulie. Damned if you do...

TheRockinMT
01-08-2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by steff
Don't worry BT.. the comment is classic of someone who's steady is his his right hand.


For a minute there I thouight you were talking about me and I hadn't said anything about PK and his marriage. I am married and the comment still rings true.

But seriously, I think mariage can have a positive affect on a ballplayer and a young person period. I think it will help Paulie a lot and look for big numbers this year.

jshanahanjr
01-08-2004, 04:27 PM
Paulie is going to rebound this year. Please take note that if he could run a little he would hit 30 pts higher every year. He's a tremendous hitter that can't get an infield hit to save his life.

steff
01-08-2004, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by SluggersAway
Wow, classy lady.
Thank your parents for me, i'm sure they are proud.

I was simply pointing to the obvious fact that we have absolutely no clue what kind of effect a marriage will have on PK.


Thanks.
They are.

No you weren't. You, without any explination, called that person a moron. Rude, and ignorant.

steff
01-08-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
For a minute there I thouight you were talking about me and I hadn't said anything about PK and his marriage. I am married and the comment still rings true.

But seriously, I think mariage can have a positive affect on a ballplayer and a young person period. I think it will help Paulie a lot and look for big numbers this year.

I agree. Stability can only improve his confidence. At least for the first couple years... :D:

SluggersAway
01-08-2004, 05:27 PM
And everybody who is anybody knows that marriage equals stability.

Ignorance is something entirely different than pointing out we have no proof of any correlation between an individual's nuptial and his batting average.

But then again what do i know, I went to public school and i'm steady with my right hand. JW Boothe, Rabin Assasins, Oswald... watch out...

Good luck and all the best to you Paulie, I'm still pulling for ya.

Charmed to make your acquaintance steff...

jabrch
01-08-2004, 11:46 PM
At this point in time, we have no choice but to hope PK can do it. Nobody wants him and nobody will give us anything close to value for him - so we might as well stick with him. It hurts - cuz it means Uribe/Harris and Rowand along with a questionable 4th and 5th starter, but that's the stone cold truth about this team right now...

compy75
01-09-2004, 12:56 AM
"I honestly think people just give him a pass about being a good teammate, having a good work ethic, being blue-collar, blah blah blah, because of the color of his skin. "

You are not alone Deadguy, I have been fighting this battle on Steff's AOL board for years and I realize I can't win. Heck, I used to call him the Golden Boy. It seems Konerko can escape any type of critical comments while Frank might hit a GW homer (He hit 6 last yr) yet get ripped for going fishing in the 4th inning earlier in the game. In all honesty it's laughable.

The reality is:

1) Konerko tries to pull virtually everything, for a small 4 week period which extended from mid July to Mid August, pitchers were treating him like the dirt he was and grooving pitches to his below Mendoza carcass.

2) By late August when he was at a respectable level, Pauly began seeing those down and away breaking stuff again. Promptly he tried to pull them hit into his DPs, along with a resounding .120 for the month of September.

3) Konerko's apparent insistence to play 1B and rejection of going to AAA was plainly unprofessional. Can you imagine if Frank caused such an uproar. PK hits better at 1b, Manuel says in July. Sorry Jer but he was just as pitiful, looking at the numbers they don't lie.

4) Konerko's best OBP EVER is only 2 points higher than Frank's WORST. Yet wait a second, Pauly is making 2 mil MORE than Frank. His salary (among others) is black death for this team. In reality DHs come cheap, heck look at half the teams in the AL now.

In the end Pauly consistently gets a free pass, heck look at all this support on this board. I don't overly mind the free pass if such a gratuity was extended to Frank but sadly it's the complete opposite which really makes you wonder...

steff
01-09-2004, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by SluggersAway
And everybody who is anybody knows that marriage equals stability.

Ignorance is something entirely different than pointing out we have no proof of any correlation between an individual's nuptial and his batting average.

But then again what do i know, I went to public school and i'm steady with my right hand. JW Boothe, Rabin Assasins, Oswald... watch out...

Good luck and all the best to you Paulie, I'm still pulling for ya.

Charmed to make your acquaintance steff...


I don't think it equals it - perse... but anyone who's married can surely agree to a degree that the begining is pretty blissfull. Planning can be extremely stressful, the relief if it being over is unreal.

Nice to meet you as well Sluggers.. take care!

Iwritecode
01-09-2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by compy75
In the end Pauly consistently gets a free pass, heck look at all this support on this board. I don't overly mind the free pass if such a gratuity was extended to Frank but sadly it's the complete opposite which really makes you wonder...

You obviously weren't around here last year. Konerko got everything but a free pass from most of the posters around here. I think right now most of us are resigned to the fact that we are stuck with him and there's not really much we can do but hope his numbers go up. They surely can't get much worse!

While there is some criticism of Thomas, there are many people on here that support him and believe he is underpaid. Especially when compared to what Konerko is making...

Paulwny
01-09-2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
You obviously weren't around here last year. Konerko got everything but a free pass from most of the posters around here.

Yep, quite a few discussions about PK last year, here's 1 thread

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20723&perpage=15&display=show&pagenumber=1

Deadguy
01-09-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
You obviously weren't around here last year. Konerko got everything but a free pass from most of the posters around here. I think right now most of us are resigned to the fact that we are stuck with him and there's not really much we can do but hope his numbers go up. They surely can't get much worse!

The opinions of most of the people on this board don't necessarilly represent those of a majority or a large size of the White Sox fan base. He gets hammered here (deservedely), yet the example of the "Paulie, Paulie" chant while he was hitting .180+ is a good example of how he seems to get a free pass in this town. I also never saw a columnist rip into him or make personal attacks on him. If Valentin, Ordonez, or Thomas had performed like that, there is very little doubt it my mind that they'd be receiving death threats, in a addition to loud booing.

And just look at this thread. Konerko's desire is hardly being questioned, even though the fact that he is 27 (an age when most players have career years), and fell flat on his face this year. This, coincidentally enough, came a year after he signed a fat contract.

That is enough to suspect that he somply became complacent, and slacked off. Yet, I still see him being described as a "blue-collar, hard worker, great teammate, etc." What are those posters basing those comments on?

While there is some criticism of Thomas, there are many people on here that support him and believe he is underpaid. Especially when compared to what Konerko is making...

This message board seems to be the exception. There are a lot of inelligent posters who understand Thomas' place in history, and how valuable his production can be. Every other message board I go to, it seems fashionable to slam Frank, and take it to personal levels, such as calling him fat, lazy, greedy, the big skirt, etc.

I went to a game in 1997, when Thomas was hitting over .350, and he got booed for grounding into a double play. I also went to a game in 2002, where he was booed everytime he stepped to the plate. Thomas has obviously done a lot to get under the skin of a large size of White Sox fans.

Thomas realizes that he is despised in this town and is fair pickings from the media and the fans when he doesn't produce, so I don't question his desire to perform.

Konerko just seems to be hidden in the #7 spot and ignored when he is struggling, and hurting the team. It needs to be madeknown to Konerko that his performance in 2003 was absolutely unacceptable, or we could easilly find him coasting through 2004.

Iwritecode
01-09-2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
The opinions of most of the people on this board don't necessarilly represent those of a majority or a large size of the White Sox fan base. He gets hammered here (deservedely), yet the example of the "Paulie, Paulie" chant while he was hitting .180+ is a good example of how he seems to get a free pass in this town. I also never saw a columnist rip into him or make personal attacks on him. If Valentin, Ordonez, or Thomas had performed like that, there is very little doubt it my mind that they'd be receiving death threats, in a addition to loud booing.

And just look at this thread. Konerko's desire is hardly being questioned, even though the fact that he is 27 (an age when most players have career years), and fell flat on his face this year. This, coincidentally enough, came a year after he signed a fat contract.

That is enough to suspect that he somply became complacent, and slacked off. Yet, I still see him being described as a "blue-collar, hard worker, great teammate, etc." What are those posters basing those comments on?

The only thing I can base my opinion on is what his teammates and other people who know him have said about him. I've never heard anyone talk bad about him and I always hear about how he's hardest on himself when he is struggling. I guess a lot of people have the opinion that he's doing everything he can out there and needs all the support and encouragement he can get. (Whether to boo or encourage players while they are struggling is a whole different thread alltogther though.)

I remember hearing the "Paulie" chant at the Saturday Cubs game last year. I thought it was good because if there was ever a time where everyone wanted him to come through, it was that moment. Plus, it really riled up the Cubs fans... :D:


Originally posted by Deadguy
This message board seems to be the exception. There are a lot of inelligent posters who understand Thomas' place in history, and how valuable his production can be. Every other message board I go to, it seems fashionable to slam Frank, and take it to personal levels, such as calling him fat, lazy, greedy, the big skirt, etc.

I went to a game in 1997, when Thomas was hitting over .350, and he got booed for grounding into a double play. I also went to a game in 2002, where he was booed everytime he stepped to the plate. Thomas has obviously done a lot to get under the skin of a large size of White Sox fans.

Thomas realizes that he is despised in this town and is fair pickings from the media and the fans when he doesn't produce, so I don't question his desire to perform.

That what seperates this board from the others. Here, we have intelligent people who understand the game and what the players mean.

Originally posted by Deadguy
Konerko just seems to be hidden in the #7 spot and ignored when he is struggling, and hurting the team. It needs to be made known to Konerko that his performance in 2003 was absolutely unacceptable, or we could easilly find him coasting through 2004.

I think Konerko knows how much his lack of production hurt the team last year. He got plenty of critisism here even if the average fans at the park didn't let him know.

Remember, there was an extra large number of "casual fans" at the games last year simply because of the AS game and the fact that the Sox were in contention for at least a couple of months in the second half...

jabrch
01-09-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Thomas realizes that he is despised in this town and is fair pickings from the media and the fans when he doesn't produce, so I don't question his desire to perform.


Poor Frank....Boo hoo hoo...Everyone is against him. He is so mistreated. **** and go out there and play ball. Harold wasn't hated - he was black. We chanted Ha --- Rold because it sounded good. We chant Pau --- Lee cuz it sounds good. We boo the crap out of PK when he sucks. PK got benched cuz he sucked.

But we do expect more out of Frank then we do out of PK. Ya know why? CUZ HE IS A BETTER HITTER. I expect players to play up to their potential. When Frank says he only wants to worry about HRs and it causes his numbers to decline, I get pissed. Sorry - that's how it is. If Loaiza suddenly said that all he wants is Ks and he was going to ignore doing the things he needs to do in order to increase his Ks, I'd be FURIOUS. If Crede decided he wanted to start pulling everything, I'd take a dump on his front doorstep I'd be so mad.

Even when Frank is keyed in, I still expect him to perform EVERY AB. Is that realistic, no - of course not. But I care about Frank. I care about his perfomance more than anyone, cuz he is the one I expect the most out of. I don't boo Daubach - I don't expect him to get on base. I cheer when Paulie does something right cuz it happens so infrequently. But at the end of the day, Frank Thomas should be mature enough and smart enough to know that he is the best hitter on this team, that he is appreciated by everyone and that he should be the team's leader.

So stop your crying and excusemaking on Frank's behalf. Let him just go out and hit the damn ball.

depy48
01-09-2004, 02:12 PM
i remember a certain struggling frank thomas rebounded in 2000 after having a disappointing 1999. maybe 2004 will be to konerko what 2000 was to thomas.

hillbilly
01-09-2004, 02:18 PM
What makes you think he is still like this...? I know plenty of people who were lazy ****s in college who are now - 10 years later - in the best athletic condition of their life.

I first of all wasnt talking about when he was in college, rather 6 years removed from the dodgers organization. And how many people do you know that love to booze get 8 MIL a year and just somehow miracly start working hard. He only has 1 season of 30+ HR's and many, me included, feel that was a "career year" for him. Like someone said earlier his athletic body resembles that as the comic book guy from the simpsons. What makes me think furthermore he is still like that cause he is 20 MIL richer regardless of how hard he works( I really hope he proves me wrong and hits 35 dongs with a 330 AVG again, I just don't see it happening). He is in terrible athletic form (Not to say baseball players have to be very athletic) which im guessing is from laziness and also why he is the slowest man in baseball.

Deadguy
01-09-2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by jabrch


So stop your crying and excusemaking on Frank's behalf. Let him just go out and hit the damn ball.

Where was I crying or excuse making? I simply stated a fact.

voodoochile
01-09-2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by depy48
i remember a certain struggling frank thomas rebounded in 2000 after having a disappointing 1999. maybe 2004 will be to konerko what 2000 was to thomas.

If Paulie could put up numbers as good as Frank did in either 1998 or 1999 people would get off his back. He wouldn't be worth the money, but at least he wouldn't be complete dead wood.

red faber
01-10-2004, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by depy48
I've seen that there is a lot of negative attitudes towards Paul Konerko. A lot of posters here want him off the whitesox. I have to disagree, i rally behind the guy every time he steps to the plate. Isnt this the Paul Konerko who was in the all star game no more than a year removed, the Paul Konerko who hit two doubles in that all star game, and also almost won the hr derby? Konerko had a piss poor first half last season, no doubt, but he hit well in the second half. Ever since 2000, it has appeared, to me at least, that Paulie has bled whitesox colors. When the "paulie" chant went around Comiskey after we beat the Twins in extra innings, i thought that whitesox fans, even the most pessimestic of us, allowed Paulie back in our hearts. For me at least, it wouldnt feel right to win a playoff series without Paul Konerko.


exactly!!!!

so he had one bad half of a season,big deal!!!!!!!

when he goes back to putting up his typical all star caliber numbers,i guarantee you all of these"trade paul konerko"people will start singing his praises once again!!

red faber
01-10-2004, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
I guess I'm one of the few people here who has a personal hatred for Konerko. I've had the misfortune of meeting him, and he was a total jack a$$. Perhaps he was just having a bad day or I just caught him off guard, but fans don't forget encounters like that.

He came across as someone who was arrogant, cocky, and had the rock star attitude without having done anything to justify that attitude.

I honestly think people just give him a pass about being a good teammate, having a good work ethic, being blue-collar, blah blah blah, because of the color of his skin.

And I'd being lying if I didn't say I also hate him for calling Thomas out in 2002. Like Joe Morgan said about that incident, he should have kept it in the clubhouse. If you have a problem with a teammate, then talk to him about it face to face. All Konerko did was create a PR disaster. I think Konerko was feeling arrogant and full of himself after his fluke performance in June of 2002, which is why he felt justified in handling the situation like that. The fact that he has since fallen flat on his face and embarassed himself since then would seem like poetic justice, if it wasn't at the expense of our winning percentage.

And this is just speculation on my part, but after David Wells called Thomas out in 2001, reportedly some teammate(s) high fived Wells for making those comments, and my guess is that GIDPK was one of those a-holes. Someone mentioned in another thread that Konerko is friends with Wells, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's true.

Despite all that, Thomas didn't have one negative thing to say about Konerko's performance during the season, and reportedly even worked with Konerko to help him get back on track. This didn't get much mention from the press or the loudmouths on talk radio, but I guess Thomas is a pretty forgiving person and likes Konerko for some reason. I don't however, and hope the Sox dump his carcass on anyone who is dumb enough to take him. I personally hate the guy, and will be very disappointed if he is still on the team come ST, and I probably won't bother purchasing any tickets this season and making a road trip up to Chi-town, like I ussually do 5-10 times a year. Not a big loss to the White Sox in revenue, but I don't have much expendable revenue, as I'm just a poor graduate student who works 20 hours a week, and I'd hate to think some of that money is giong to someone like Konerko.

As far as his work ethic goes, I have no clue how hard he works off the field. I can look at guys like Valentin, Magglio, and Thomas and see that they spend some time in the weight room. Konerko, however, seems to have the build of a Verizon Wirelesss salesman. You'd think getting all that money would motivate him to spend some extra time in the gym, but it obviously didn't. And David Wells has made it well known he has a poor work ethic, so I wonder if his friend Konerko shares the same philosophy.



you do have a point though!!!!!

TornLabrum
01-10-2004, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by red faber
exactly!!!!

so he had one bad half of a season,big deal!!!!!!!

when he goes back to putting up his typical all star caliber numbers,i guarantee you all of these"trade paul konerko"people will start singing his praises once again!!

I'd agree with you except Konerko didn't have just "one bad half of a season." Take a look at the split for the 2002 season. Konerko stank up the joint the last half of that season (due to a bad ankle, they said) and continued to stink through the All-Star Game in 2003.

The only thing that save his 2002 numbers was the spectacular first half he had.

gosox41
01-10-2004, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by red faber
exactly!!!!

so he had one bad half of a season,big deal!!!!!!!

when he goes back to putting up his typical all star caliber numbers,i guarantee you all of these"trade paul konerko"people will start singing his praises once again!!

I won't. He is still highly overpaid. And he's only been an All Star once in 4 years so it's hardy typical to call him one.

Also, PK had more then one bad first half. In fact during his All Star year in 2002 he had a great first half. Check out his second half. I think he hit like .257 with 8 HR's. Nice All Star numbers.

Bottm line is if you take Paul's OPS (before 2003) and compare him to other first basemen in the AL, he is statistically average. Even in 2002. PK's best year is Frank's worst year (when Frank is healthy I'm not counting 28 games in '01)

Maybe PK will rebound, in fact I'd bet his 2004 season is better then '03. But he is still overpaid relative to other first basemen and still eats up to much payroll even when he's at his best.

Bob

Bobby Thigpen
01-10-2004, 09:04 PM
Maybe PK will rebound, in fact I'd bet his 2004 season is better then '03. But he is still overpaid relative to other first basemen and still eats up to much payroll even when he's at his best.

Again though, who's at fault for him being overpaid? Would you have taken the money if offered? YES. What's he supposed to do? Give it back? I highly doubt you give money back to your boss after having a bad week.

joecrede
01-10-2004, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Again though, who's at fault for him being overpaid? Would you have taken the money if offered? YES. What's he supposed to do? Give it back? I highly doubt you give money back to your boss after having a bad week.

No one is blaming Konerko for his contract.

gosox41
01-10-2004, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Bobby Thigpen
Again though, who's at fault for him being overpaid? Would you have taken the money if offered? YES. What's he supposed to do? Give it back? I highly doubt you give money back to your boss after having a bad week.

I never said give it back or blame Paul for signing the contract. I blame KW as this is one of his worst moves.

But strictly as a die hard fan who studies the game, this was a bad move. Go back to my posts back in '02 when Paulie signed the extension and I said the same exact thing then. Even if Paulie had a similar 2003 season as he did in '02 I'd still say the same thing.

PK's contract is killing the Sox as is Koch's. And for the record, go see my posts the days after the Koch trade to see my opinion on that. I believe I made reference to your ID name.

Bob

ND_Sox_Fan
01-10-2004, 10:50 PM
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is Paulie's fielding pct. relative to Frank's (the supposed horrible firstbaseman) - it is only .002 higher. Hardly significant. Let Thomas play the position and get greater production out of him on both ends!

Daver
01-11-2004, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by ND_Sox_Fan
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is Paulie's fielding pct. relative to Frank's (the supposed horrible firstbaseman) - it is only .002 higher. Hardly significant. Let Thomas play the position and get greater production out of him on both ends!

Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

jabrch
01-11-2004, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by ND_Sox_Fan
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is Paulie's fielding pct. relative to Frank's (the supposed horrible firstbaseman) - it is only .002 higher. Hardly significant. Let Thomas play the position and get greater production out of him on both ends!

Fielding % for a 1B is not the best metric, is it? Are you trying to argue that Frank is just as good a fielder as PK? I don't need a stat sheet to tell me that you are wrong here.

jabrch
01-11-2004, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by red faber
exactly!!!!

so he had one bad half of a season,big deal!!!!!!!

when he goes back to putting up his typical all star caliber numbers,i guarantee you all of these"trade paul konerko"people will start singing his praises once again!!

If he starts putting up all-star numbers, and has all-star market value during the season, or even after it, I'd trade him in a HEARTBEAT. His contract is way to much for what he will deliver even if he meets what is expected of him. The market, since he signed, is significantly less than it is today. 8mm? Think about what we could have done this year with 8mm of available cash.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-11-2004, 08:48 AM
Why do the Sox always put such a premium on defense for all the positions that aren't a challenge to defend? It's silly to play a firstbasemen everyday for his superior defense. Catchers, shortstops and centerfielders are something quite different, but come on! Mike Squires never won jack for the Chicago White Sox. Hasn't anyone in the front office learned anything the past 20 years?

:hawk
"Paulie sure does handle the ol' 3-6-3 double play beautifully."

:KW
"Here's a check for $8 million, Paulie!"

:walnuts
"I'm not that good."

:ohno
"We know... we know."

ND_Sox_Fan
01-11-2004, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Fielding % for a 1B is not the best metric, is it? Are you trying to argue that Frank is just as good a fielder as PK? I don't need a stat sheet to tell me that you are wrong here.

I don't think fileding % is the best metric, but I think one who is above average can help hide below average players on the rest of the infield. I have seen Konerko miss plenty of balls that he should have had over the last few years, granted he does do a pretty good job coming up the line to get balls. I am saying Frank may be as good or slightly below Konerko on D, but the greater production that comes from Frank when he is at first is what matters - I know this issue has been discussed many times here before so I don't mean to take this post in that direction.

Bobby Thigpen
01-11-2004, 07:57 PM
No one is blaming Konerko for his contract.

No, but many people have taken it as an oppurtunity to run down his character and his desire. Many people in this thread alone have said he is fat, lazy, slow, etc, etc. Then the very next thing they mention is his contract. They have also said that he shouldn't have signed the contract if he couldn't produce at that level indefinitely. I would consider that blaming him for his contract.

depy48
01-11-2004, 09:00 PM
I think now, with no one believing in him, he might produce. Last year a lot of eyes were focused on him, a lot of pressure was put on his back. He definatly felt the pressure, which came with the contract, and maybe thats why he didnt produce. In any manner, with some of the eyes off of him, he mught fall back into a comfort zone and regain a solid swing.

gosox41
01-12-2004, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by depy48
I think now, with no one believing in him, he might produce. Last year a lot of eyes were focused on him, a lot of pressure was put on his back. He definatly felt the pressure, which came with the contract, and maybe thats why he didnt produce. In any manner, with some of the eyes off of him, he mught fall back into a comfort zone and regain a solid swing.

With big money comes higher expectations.

I don't blame PK for signing what was offered to him, but I'm not going to blame last year's dismal performance on a mysterious hip injury either.

Bob

Whitesox029
01-15-2004, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by depy48
I've seen that there is a lot of negative attitudes towards Paul Konerko. A lot of posters here want him off the whitesox. I have to disagree, i rally behind the guy every time he steps to the plate. Isnt this the Paul Konerko who was in the all star game no more than a year removed, the Paul Konerko who hit two doubles in that all star game, and also almost won the hr derby? Konerko had a piss poor first half last season, no doubt, but he hit well in the second half. Ever since 2000, it has appeared, to me at least, that Paulie has bled whitesox colors. When the "paulie" chant went around Comiskey after we beat the Twins in extra innings, i thought that whitesox fans, even the most pessimestic of us, allowed Paulie back in our hearts. For me at least, it wouldnt feel right to win a playoff series without Paul Konerko.

AMEN BROTHER! I was right there on July 2nd chanting along with the rest of them. We stayed til Thomas' blast in the twelfth and I still have the newspaper from the next day--It was the greatest sox game I've ever seen. I've been a Paulie fan ever since 2000 and I admire him greatly for his humility and his hitting. WE should really be giving him a break--he's had a brilliant career except for one stinking half season which just happened to be in 2003.
PAULIE STAYS!!

red faber
01-16-2004, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I'd agree with you except Konerko didn't have just "one bad half of a season." Take a look at the split for the 2002 season. Konerko stank up the joint the last half of that season (due to a bad ankle, they said) and continued to stink through the All-Star Game in 2003.

The only thing that save his 2002 numbers was the spectacular first half he had.

you've got a point but,that injury screwed up his mental approach to the game.
and in baseball,mental is everything!!!

red faber
01-16-2004, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I won't. He is still highly overpaid. And he's only been an All Star once in 4 years so it's hardy typical to call him one.

Also, PK had more then one bad first half. In fact during his All Star year in 2002 he had a great first half. Check out his second half. I think he hit like .257 with 8 HR's. Nice All Star numbers.

Bottm line is if you take Paul's OPS (before 2003) and compare him to other first basemen in the AL, he is statistically average. Even in 2002. PK's best year is Frank's worst year (when Frank is healthy I'm not counting 28 games in '01)

Maybe PK will rebound, in fact I'd bet his 2004 season is better then '03. But he is still overpaid relative to other first basemen and still eats up to much payroll even when he's at his best.

Bob


ok,so the fact that he got injured in the second half of 2002 had nothing to do with his bad performance in that half,right?????

red faber
01-16-2004, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I won't. He is still highly overpaid. And he's only been an All Star once in 4 years so it's hardy typical to call him one.

Also, PK had more then one bad first half. In fact during his All Star year in 2002 he had a great first half. Check out his second half. I think he hit like .257 with 8 HR's. Nice All Star numbers.

Bottm line is if you take Paul's OPS (before 2003) and compare him to other first basemen in the AL, he is statistically average. Even in 2002. PK's best year is Frank's worst year (when Frank is healthy I'm not counting 28 games in '01)

Maybe PK will rebound, in fact I'd bet his 2004 season is better then '03. But he is still overpaid relative to other first basemen and still eats up to much payroll even when he's at his best.

Bob


and it's not like its his fault he is overpaid!!!!!

that decision goes straight to reinsdork!!!!!!

red faber
01-16-2004, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
If he starts putting up all-star numbers, and has all-star market value during the season, or even after it, I'd trade him in a HEARTBEAT. His contract is way to much for what he will deliver even if he meets what is expected of him. The market, since he signed, is significantly less than it is today. 8mm? Think about what we could have done this year with 8mm of available cash.


trade him????

why?????????

like i said before you don't trade a guy just because he has 1 collectively bad season..
and maybe the market is smaller now than it was then,but you would have to have paid him something.so you wouldn't have had a full 8mm of available cash any way.and if you are going to blame anybody for paying paulie 8mm,blame reinsdork.
it's not like anybody forced that old moron to pay paulie that amount!!!!

gosox41
01-16-2004, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by red faber
ok,so the fact that he got injured in the second half of 2002 had nothing to do with his bad performance in that half,right?????

Maybe. But how does that explain 2003? That's his most recent year and it was worse then his second half of 2002.

Bob

gosox41
01-16-2004, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by red faber
and it's not like its his fault he is overpaid!!!!!

that decision goes straight to reinsdork!!!!!!

You're missing the point. Read what I post. I said I don't blame him for taking the money. But relative to other first basemen he is highly overpaid considering the offense he puts up in his best year is still average. Becuase of that one particular reason, I'd ship him out of here the first chance I get. JR and KW screwed up. DUH. We know what bumbling fools they are. I've admitted to it. Just like I came out couple days after PK signed the contract extension and called it a mistake at the time, because his talent doesn't deserve that kind of money.

Obviously the SOx felt differently. And look at how wrong they were and how we hope PK will bounce back.

Try not to miss the point. Just because the Sox agreed to overpay PK, doesn't mean I personally want him here or that I think he's worth the money.

Bob

depy48
01-16-2004, 01:06 PM
sit back relax, and watch paulie pull it together.
in the preseason, no one's predictions really are substantial. by all means, paulie could be a mvp candidate, or be demoted to triple A. i have faith i him, but until the season starts, lets keep our paulie claims to a minimum, and is he cant perform during the season, then.....

red faber
01-18-2004, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
You're missing the point. Read what I post. I said I don't blame him for taking the money. But relative to other first basemen he is highly overpaid considering the offense he puts up in his best year is still average. Becuase of that one particular reason, I'd ship him out of here the first chance I get. JR and KW screwed up. DUH. We know what bumbling fools they are. I've admitted to it. Just like I came out couple days after PK signed the contract extension and called it a mistake at the time, because his talent doesn't deserve that kind of money.

Obviously the SOx felt differently. And look at how wrong they were and how we hope PK will bounce back.

Try not to miss the point. Just because the Sox agreed to overpay PK, doesn't mean I personally want him here or that I think he's worth the money.

Bob



i could understand people wanting to trade paulie if he was like 35 or 36 years old,clearly in the decline,and making that money,but he is only 27,do you hear me,27!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

paulie WILL bounce back!!!!!

and he WILL show that he is worth that money!!!!!!

and you WILL change your tune when he does!!!!!!

red faber
01-18-2004, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Maybe. But how does that explain 2003? That's his most recent year and it was worse then his second half of 2002.

Bob

BOTTOM LINE:you don't trade a guy because of one bad season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

munchman33
01-18-2004, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by red faber
BOTTOM LINE:you don't trade a guy because of one bad season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do if he's owed a ton of money and you can get out of the contract.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-18-2004, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by red faber
i could understand people wanting to trade paulie if he was like 35 or 36 years old,clearly in the decline,and making that money,but he is only 27,do you hear me,27!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

paulie WILL bounce back!!!!!

and he WILL show that he is worth that money!!!!!!

and you WILL change your tune when he does!!!!!!

He was *never* worth "that money" and no less an authority than Paul Konerko himself told us so. He lost his sponsor inside the manager's office, too. He never gets that money without him.

Konerko ought to be limited to facing lefthanders who he still hits. The first time he puts together three weeks of solid hitting --BAM! -- pull the trigger to jettison him and his outrageous salary. There has to be at least one other idiot GM besides Kenny Williams dumb enough to want him.

:lynch&mcfail
"We like his nickname, 'Paulie.' All the mediocrities we raise to hero status around here have an 'ie' sound tacked on the end. Ernie, Ronnie, Sammy, Jody... the kiddies love it. You know what suckers they all grow up to be, too!"

gosox41
01-18-2004, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by red faber
i could understand people wanting to trade paulie if he was like 35 or 36 years old,clearly in the decline,and making that money,but he is only 27,do you hear me,27!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

paulie WILL bounce back!!!!!

and he WILL show that he is worth that money!!!!!!

and you WILL change your tune when he does!!!!!!

If Paulie has a year like his best year in the major's, he's still not worth the money. The only thing you can hope for is that some sucker teamm will trade for him.

Bob

gosox41
01-18-2004, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by red faber
BOTTOM LINE:you don't trade a guy because of one bad season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bottom Line: You're still missing the point.

Bob

bafiarocks03
01-18-2004, 03:58 PM
ya i was at that game in extra innings! and i was one of them chantin paulie! i've loved paul for a long time! and they better not get rid of him!!!!

Whitesox029
01-18-2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by red faber
BOTTOM LINE:you don't trade a guy because of one bad season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to agree with our friend Red on this one-- I've always been a Paulie fan and I probably always will be (I am still a Robin Ventura fan), and I prefer that he stays on the Sox for all reasons previously stated by my side of the argument so far in the thread.

oharewx
01-19-2004, 01:31 AM
he is way too slow on the base paths.

Whitesox029
01-19-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by oharewx
he is way too slow on the base paths.

So was Babe Ruth

voodoochile
01-19-2004, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
So was Babe Ruth

Actually, Ruth played CF. He was not exactly a plodder...

depy48
01-20-2004, 02:40 AM
then who'd you rather have playing first:
konerko or derrek lee?

as an avid paulie supporter, and due to the fact i dont think derrek lee could handle the AL, i say paulie

MisterB
01-20-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by depy48
then who'd you rather have playing first:
konerko or derrek lee?

as an avid paulie supporter, and due to the fact i dont think derrek lee could handle the AL, i say paulie

DLee is a notch below Konerko in power and average, but has better plate patience and speed. He doesn't ground into as many DP's because of both his speed and the fact he strikes out a lot more. Defensively they're pretty close, but Lee has more mobility. I think the performance difference between the AL & NL is overstated. They're close enough overall that my choice would be whomever will play for less (which at this point is DLee)





P.S.:
:tomatoaward

14konerko
01-20-2004, 11:30 AM
Lee would have more stolen bases than Paulie, but then again so would Luzinksi. Other than that, I'll take Paulie over Lee any day of the week

soxruleEP
01-20-2004, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Actually, Ruth played CF. He was not exactly a plodder...

Actually Ruth played Right Field, although you are correct when you say he was not super slow--at least early on and into the middle of his career.

steff
01-20-2004, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by soxruleEP
Actually Ruth played Right Field, although you are correct when you say he was not super slow--at least early on and into the middle of his career.



Had to get to the bars before closing time... :D:

washington
01-20-2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
So was Babe Ruth

Ruth had a little more offensive upside than Konerko does

voodoochile
01-20-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by washington
Ruth had a little more offensive upside than Konerko does

Probably still does... :D:

StepsInSC
01-20-2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Probably still does... :D:


I'm not so sure that should be in teal...

We could sell the body of Ruth for money, whereas we can't pay anyone to take PK off our hands.

Whitesox029
01-20-2004, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Actually, Ruth played CF. He was not exactly a plodder...
According to baseball-reference.com, Babe Ruth played a total of 64 games in Center Field, the last of which was in 1924. Compare that to 1057 games in Left and 1131 games in Right and you can hardly call him a full time centerfielder.

Whitesox029
01-20-2004, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by washington
Ruth had a little more offensive upside than Konerko does
You're right of course, but all I'm saying is that guys aren't payed or not payed based on their speed anymore. I can't remember the last time a team turned down a good hitter because the guy was slow.

voodoochile
01-20-2004, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
According to baseball-reference.com, Babe Ruth played a total of 64 games in Center Field, the last of which was in 1924. Compare that to 1057 games in Left and 1131 games in Right and you can hardly call him a full time centerfielder.

Okay, I was trying to find the stats, but the place I went to just listed his time in the OF as OF. Still, even if he didn't play CF that often, how many slowpokes get 64 starts in CF?

Would you ever imagine Paulie out there?

Whitesox029
01-21-2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, I was trying to find the stats, but the place I went to just listed his time in the OF as OF. Still, even if he didn't play CF that often, how many slowpokes get 64 starts in CF?

Would you ever imagine Paulie out there?

When the window comes up those stats are all the way over to the right and off the screen--you have to scroll to see them.

But anyway everyone's entitled to his/her opinion so we'll just agree to disagree (that phrase is way overused, but hey--it fits doesn't it?).

red faber
01-21-2004, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
You do if he's owed a ton of money and you can get out of the contract.


and um,who's fault is it that he's owed a lot of money?????

no one forced reinsdork to give him all of that money.

red faber
01-21-2004, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
If Paulie has a year like his best year in the major's, he's still not worth the money. The only thing you can hope for is that some sucker teamm will trade for him.

Bob


ok,let's say we do trade him.

how do we know that the next 1st baseman we have will even be as good as paulie??????

red faber
01-21-2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Bottom Line: You're still missing the point.

Bob


maybe it's you that's missing the point!!!!!!

Daver
01-21-2004, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by red faber
ok,let's say we do trade him.

how do we know that the next 1st baseman we have will even be as good as paulie??????

Frank Thomas is on the roster,and has always put up better numbers than Paul Konerko,argue that as you will.

RKMeibalane
01-21-2004, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by red faber
ok,let's say we do trade him.

how do we know that the next 1st baseman we have will even be as good as paulie??????

That's easy.

"New" Sox first baseman ---------------------> :hurt

red faber
01-21-2004, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Frank Thomas is on the roster,and has always put up better numbers than Paul Konerko,argue that as you will.

true that,true that.

but here's the thing,paulie is 27 and has yet to be in his prime.

frank will be 36 and his best years are CLEARLY behind him.

yes frank had a good year last year,but how long do you honestly expect him to keep putting up those kind of numbers???

red faber
01-21-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
That's easy.

"New" Sox first baseman ---------------------> :hurt


frank will be 36 years old in may.

he's just NOT the long term solution at 1st base anymore.

you've got to keep the younger guy,simple as that!!!!

Daver
01-21-2004, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by red faber


yes frank had a good year last year,but how long do you honestly expect him to keep putting up those kind of numbers???


How old is Barry Bonds?

red faber
01-21-2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Daver
How old is Barry Bonds?


i really,really hope you're not comparing frank thomas to one of the greatest players ever!!!!


and unlike bonds,frank is showing signs of declining skills

RKMeibalane
01-21-2004, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by red faber
frank will be 36 years old in may.

he's just NOT the long term solution at 1st base anymore.

you've got to keep the younger guy,simple as that!!!!

Let's see here...

Frank Thomas has shown over the course of his career that when he plays first base, he puts up numbers on par with the likes of Ted Williams and Lou Gehrig.

Frank Thomas has also shown over the course of his career that the numbers he puts up when being used as the DH are not as good as those he puts up when playing first base.

Furthermore, Frank had no problems playing first base last season. The only reason he wasn't out there more often had to do with the incompetence of an individual whose name I won't mention here.

Also, I am not saying that Frank needs to play 1B every single day. I do, however, think he can play there 3-4 times a week without a problem, and the vast majority of the other members of this board agree with that assesment.

RKMeibalane
01-21-2004, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by red faber
i really,really hope you're not comparing frank thomas to one of the greatest players ever!!!!


and unlike bonds,frank is showing signs of declining skills

Any decline in Bonds' skills has been delayed with the help of something that rhymes with "Lloyd."

gogosoxgogo
01-21-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by red faber
frank will be 36 years old in may.

he's just NOT the long term solution at 1st base anymore.

you've got to keep the younger guy,simple as that!!!!

No one is saying Frank is the long-term solution for the next 10 years at first base. He is simply ready to step in and play first base if Konerko is no longer here.

Regarding the main topic of this thread, getting rid of Konerko at this point would be ridiculous. His trade value is the equivalent of Eddy Curry's IQ. Konerko will not be as bad as last year. However, he will not be as good as 2002. Expect 2000-like numbers out of Konerko. He is a solid first basemen who is overpaid and was overhyped by his 2002 performance. THAT was the time to trade him, right after that monster year. I was a big campaigner for that. Buy low, sell high.

red faber
01-21-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Let's see here...

Frank Thomas has shown over the course of his career that when he plays first base, he puts up numbers on par with the likes of Ted Williams and Lou Gehrig.

Frank Thomas has also shown over the course of his career that the numbers he puts up when being used as the DH are not as good as those he puts up when playing first base.

Furthermore, Frank had no problems playing first base last season. The only reason he wasn't out there more often had to do with the incompetence of an individual whose name I won't mention here.

Also, I am not saying that Frank needs to play 1B every single day. I do, however, think he can play there 3-4 times a week without a problem, and the vast majority of the other members of this board agree with that assesment.



you're absolutely right!!!!!

but you've got to look at the big picture here.
frank is getting up there in age,and sooner or later there is gonna have to be new blood at 1st base on a fulltime basis.

don't get me wrong big frank is damn good,but to mention him in the same breath with lou gehrig and ted williams is a bit of a reach.

yea,he didn't have any problems,but lets be real here,it's not like the guy was gold glove caliber last year.or anytime in the past for the matter,plus he's not as good of a hitter as he used to be,he can still jack homeruns,but his days of hitting over .300 and his days of having a good bb's to k's ratio are over.

RKMeibalane
01-21-2004, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by red faber
yea,he didn't have any problems,but lets be real here,it's not like the guy was gold glove caliber last year.or anytime in the past for the matter,plus he's not as good of a hitter as he used to be,he can still jack homeruns,but his days of hitting over .300 and his days of having a good bb's to k's ratio are over.

Actually, Frank's average was around .290 when Jerry "The Tinkerer" moved him back to DH. Things went downhill from there, and Frank started his "swing for the fences" escapade. If he had been left at first base, I think he would have been able to reach .300 by the time the season ended.

Whitesox029
01-21-2004, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Frank Thomas is on the roster,and has always put up better numbers than Paul Konerko,argue that as you will.
I would tend to argue that by saying that if Thomas takes over Paul's job, someone has to take over Thomas' DH job--and who can they find to fill that place who would hit better than Paulie?

red faber
01-21-2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Actually, Frank's average was around .290 when Jerry "The Tinkerer" moved him back to DH. Things went downhill from there, and Frank started his "swing for the fences" escapade. If he had been left at first base, I think he would have been able to reach .300 by the time the season ended.


maybe so,but i doubt it!!!!!!

RKMeibalane
01-21-2004, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
I would tend to argue that by saying that if Thomas takes over Paul's job, someone has to take over Thomas' DH job--and who can they find to fill that place who would hit better than Paulie?

With Frank at first, the Sox could go to a DH-by-committee arrangment. Valentin, Lee, and even someone like Joe Borchard could be used there if necessary.

I will be honest and say that this arugment made more sense when Brian Daubach was still around, but I do think the Sox can make things work with Frank as their first baseman.

red faber
01-21-2004, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Any decline in Bonds' skills has been delayed with the help of something that rhymes with "Lloyd."

say what you want about steroids,but the fact is,they DON'T improve your hand-eye coordination!!!!!

and it hasn't been proven that he takes them anyway!!

Whitesox029
01-25-2004, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
With Frank at first, the Sox could go to a DH-by-committee arrangment. Valentin, Lee, and even someone like Joe Borchard could be used there if necessary.

I will be honest and say that this arugment made more sense when Brian Daubach was still around, but I do think the Sox can make things work with Frank as their first baseman.

again though, you're just replacing Konerko with someone who was already in the lineup. maybe I agree with you if we go out there and trade for someone (not likely) or sign someone (who's left?). You're giving up a proven, potentially explosive bat for either an unproven minor leaguer or if you want Jose as your DH then Juan Uribe.

red faber
01-26-2004, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
again though, you're just replacing Konerko with someone who was already in the lineup. maybe I agree with you if we go out there and trade for someone (not likely) or sign someone (who's left?). You're giving up a proven, potentially explosive bat for either an unproven minor leaguer or if you want Jose as your DH then Juan Uribe.

exactly!!!!

and like i've said before frank will not play much longer.

so why trade paulie at this point?????????