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LATruBlue
01-07-2004, 05:31 PM
OK,

A WhiteSox fan just posted this on a Dodger board. I thought that I would post it over here to get your thoughts. I'm not coming over here to antagonize anyone. Just talking baseball, that's it.

"ok before you get all upset i am just letting u no what i heard and want to no if u would do this. my accounting teacher (a huge a reliable sox fan) told me he heard that la and the sox might pull the trigger to this trade Magglio Ordonez, Jon Garland, and Scott Schoenwies for Juan Encarnacion, Paul Shuey, and Guillermo Mota

do u like it, can i please have your opinion on this trade please dont bad call me dont shoot the messenger"

Randar68
01-07-2004, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
OK,

A WhiteSox fan just posted this on a Dodger board. I thought that I would post it over here to get your thoughts. I'm not coming over here to antagonize anyone. Just talking baseball, that's it.

That would be one of the worst trades in the history of the White Sox.

Dadawg_77
01-07-2004, 05:41 PM
Daver can you take out Kenny before he does this?

lowesox
01-07-2004, 05:43 PM
I could see that trade without Garland going to the Dodgers and with one of those superstud prospects coming over from LA. And Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense.

If the Sox trade Ordonez they'd never include Garland.

Clarkdog
01-07-2004, 05:44 PM
Granted Mags is gone after this season, but then trading our prospective #3 and #4 starter (as of now) for two middle relievers?

LA would pull the trigger.

But the Sox (as stupid as they can be sometimes) would never offer at such a terrible deal.

LATruBlue
01-07-2004, 05:56 PM
Here is a quote from a fellow Dodger fan. I'm posting this because he expresses some of my sentiments.

Magglio Ordonez - $14mil
Jon Garland - $375K
Scott Schoeneweis - $1.5mil
Total salary from White Sox - approx. $16mil
Odalis Perez - approx. $5mil
Paul Shuey - $4mil
Guillermo Mota - due for a raise, probably $750K

Total salary from Dodgers - approx. $9.75mil

So, you're saving over $6mil, getting a decent lefty starter, and the much-coveted Mota. Looks pretty sweet for the Sox. Dodgers get two starters. What do we need with two more starters? Would they pitch from the bullpen? Maybe their ERAs would drop in Dodger Stadium, and pitching from the pen. But why would the Sox trade two starters for one, when they need starting pitching?

This trade doesn't make sense.

Might I add that the Dodgers would still be taking a huge risk if they are unable to resign Maggs.

Also, the money the you guys would save could go towards Ponson, if the O's don't nab him first.

Dadawg_77
01-07-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
Here is a quote from a fellow Dodger fan. I'm posting this because he expresses some of my sentiments.



Might I add that the Dodgers would still be taking a huge risk if they are unable to resign Maggs.

Also, the money the you guys would save could go towards Ponson, if the O's don't nab him first.

Mota is vastly overrated if he is the key to this deal. But that would be like Kenny to do. A RP pitchers isn't worth a top 15 OF.

LATruBlue
01-07-2004, 06:02 PM
What good is a top 15 OF if he walks at the end of the season and you get nothing in return?

hose
01-07-2004, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
What good is a top 15 OF if he walks at the end of the season and you get nothing in return?


I agree with you about Maggs. Reinsdork is to cheap to resign him so I would just as soon get something for him.

reality......SUCKS

Rex Hudler
01-07-2004, 06:33 PM
Reinsdork is to cheap to resign him

Too cheap? Just curious how much YOU think Maggs is worth? Personally, I don't think he is worth the $14 million he'll make this year, let alone more.

DrCrawdad
01-07-2004, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Too cheap? Just curious how much YOU think Maggs is worth? Personally, I don't think he is worth the $14 million he'll make this year, let alone more.

That's the same question that I keep asking whenever this comes up. Interestingly no one seems to answer it. It's just a White Sox fan mantra, "Reinsdorf is cheap..."

Magglio is getting 2 million more than Gary Sheffield. Is Magglio worth 2 million more than Sheffield? I don't think so.

Daver
01-07-2004, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Too cheap? Just curious how much YOU think Maggs is worth? Personally, I don't think he is worth the $14 million he'll make this year, let alone more.

He is worth exactly what the market will bear,the same as any other ballplayer,what the market will bear however,has been shrinking for the last two years.

mac9001
01-07-2004, 06:41 PM
This deal is ludicrous, enough said.

Brian26
01-07-2004, 06:58 PM
The deal is insane. Ridiculous stuff. Makes no sense whatsoever. The Sox are going to trade their #3 and #4 starters for nobody to replace them? I wouldn't do that deal without Maggs involved, let alone including him.

hose
01-07-2004, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Too cheap? Just curious how much YOU think Maggs is worth? Personally, I don't think he is worth the $14 million he'll make this year, let alone more.


It's hard to tell what Maggs will be worth next year. The market determines the salary and fewer and fewer teams want to get into long term big salaries. There are a lot of other variables such as what other players are on the open market and do teams want to spend.

Getting a couple of teams like the Yankees and Red Sox both going after Maggs could boost the ante. Having LA spending like a drunk on pay day will also impact the market next year.

When Maggs signed this current contract I think he was payed right in line with the rest of the league. The problem isn't Maggs making $14 million , but Reinsy unwillingness to increase his payroll to that of a major market team.

Rex Hudler
01-07-2004, 07:21 PM
I disagree that Maggs making $14 million is not the problem. If he doesn't sign back with the Sox, it will have nothing to do with Reinsdorf being cheap.

If the Sox had the same revenue streams as the major market teams, then perhaps we would have a similar payroll.

hose
01-07-2004, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
That's the same question that I keep asking whenever this comes up. Interestingly no one seems to answer it. It's just a White Sox fan mantra, "Reinsdorf is cheap..."

Magglio is getting 2 million more than Gary Sheffield. Is Magglio worth 2 million more than Sheffield? I don't think so.


Reinsy back loaded Maggs contract, so comparing the last year of his current contract to Sheff's "new" contract isn't really an accurate illustration .

If Maggs and Sheff both signed new contracts this year and Maggs was at $14 million and Sheff was at $12 million, then you could make the comparison .

Maggs could possibly be looking at a lower salary next year. Again it is what the market will bear.

LATruBlue
01-07-2004, 07:58 PM
Actually, I think the White Sox get the better of this deal and here is why.

First, you would get Encarnacion who is a decent OF. He is a decent batter with a career .270 ave, 19 hr's, and a career OPS 0f .758 which is very respectable. He is an excellent defensive glove with speed.

Paul Shuey has a career 3.57 era and had a 3.00 era last season. He pitched in 62 games with 69 innings pitched. Take out the years 1994 and 1997, then he has pitched very well. He is a good middle reliever.

Guillermo Mota, who appears to be the key for Williams, was on top of his game last season. In the previous years, he wasn't that good. Last season, he pitched the most innings ever in his career. He struck out 99 in a 105 innings for a 1.97 era. His career era is 3.53. There is the belief here by some that feel he is overrated. But I think he will be the same pitcher that he was last season come this season. Let me tell you why. The Dodger pitching coaches knew he had velocity. He pitches around 93-95 mph, but he was wild when he came from the Expos. I even questioned why they wanted someone who constantly missed the plate. I don't know what they did to his mechanics, but what ever they told him to correct, it worked. In addition, the Dodgers had him work on a change up to complement his fastball. Now he has both working and I really believe that is why his era dropped from 4.15 to 1.97 in one season. The batters were either late on his fastball or they were breaking their wrists trying to hold up on his change up. He now knows how to pitch instead of just throwing wildly towards the plate. So, is he the real deal? You had better believe it.

The White Sox are purportedly offerring:

Maggs who without question is a tremendous offensive threat. Top 15 as was pointed out to me earlier. One caveat though. He could walk from the Dodgers as well. That just doesn't sit well with me. I for one would hate to trade for a player that decided to leave later.

Scott Schoeneweis pitched in 62 games with 64.2 innings pitched last season with an era of 4.18. He struck out 56. He has a career era of 5.08. Needless to say, that is high by any standard.

Jon Garland started 32 games last season. Finished 12-13 with 191.2 innings pitched. He struck out 108. Finished with an era of 4.51. His era too is relatively high. His stats indicates that he's not overpowering.

So, in my opinion, the WhiteSox pitching gets much better, a lower payroll, and cash no longer going to Maggs to boot to pursue free agent pitchers like Ponson. Thus you get something for Maggs who by the end of the season would have walked anyway.

The Dodgers get an outstanding hitter and the risk of that hitter filing for free agency anyway along with two so-so pitchers and an increase in payroll.

Advantage Sox.

duke of dorwood
01-07-2004, 08:03 PM
WHAT ????????????????

poorme
01-07-2004, 08:06 PM
i'd rather deal ordonez for mota straight up.

pearso66
01-07-2004, 08:14 PM
For some reason, I've never thought much of Encarnacion, while he isn't bad, I don't think he's all that good either. Plus we have other corner OF's in the minor leagues. 2 of whom can put up Encarnacion type numbers more than likely.

Garland pitched more innings last year than both Mota and Shuey combined. Yes I know he was a starter and neither of Mota and Shuey were. Schoeneweis was also slated as being one of our starters. While I don't feel too happy about this, I'd rather see him as a starter than Shuey. I'd rather have Alverez who is the same age, and also a lefty.

The only guy worth getting in that trade is Mota. And he is a question mark. While he showed great improvement, he's only had 1 good season to date. That I know of. He is 30 years old, so that heat of his probably wont last too much longer.

For this deal, I'd rather wait the year, and see if we can't resign Maggs.

Just my opinion

Rex Hudler
01-07-2004, 08:15 PM
Reinsy back loaded Maggs contract, so comparing the last year of his current contract to Sheff's "new" contract isn't really an accurate illustration .

Teams backload contracts so it will reflect the true value of a player and of what he would have earned if he had gone year to year. Most teams do it with contracts for younger players. They would naturally earn increasingly more each year they produce at a high level, so the contract is structured to reflect that.

Hence the reason Mark Buehrle will only make $3.5 million this year even though his contract "averages" $6 million per year. That is not backloading, it is giving the player a guaranteed contract based on what both parties figure they are worth each year of the deal.

mac9001
01-07-2004, 08:22 PM
LATruBlue,

Encarnacion has almost no value.

Paul Shuey at $4M+ also has little value.

While Mota is a very valuable and cheap reliever, he's still only a reliever.


Mags alone is worth much more than those 3, but no one in their right mine would make this preposterous deal.

Brian26
01-07-2004, 08:31 PM
By the way, isn't there a rule that says Encarnacion can't be traded for at least 6 months since the Dodgers just signed him as a free agent? Same rule that applied to Everett applies here.

MisterB
01-07-2004, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
By the way, isn't there a rule that says Encarnacion can't be traded for at least 6 months since the Dodgers just signed him as a free agent? Same rule that applied to Everett applies here.

Encarnacion can't be traded back to the Marlins for 6 months. LA could send him anywhere else, though.

LATruBlue
01-07-2004, 08:37 PM
I can respect everyone's opinion here and I understand how you would feel about the trade as do I. I for one would be very relunctant to do this. I would rather wait until next year and try to sign Maggs without giving up anything.

And maybe I have this wrong but I thought the White Sox were trying to better their pitching, albeit, you would be receiving relievers, they appear to be better than what you currently have. Secondly, I thought that the White Sox had to lower payroll per JR's mandate. So you have have accomplished that too.

I guess what I find puzzling is that some White Sox fans feel that Maggs is worth more than what other teams are willing to trade, and you have a legitimate right to feel that way, but if you were the GM and knew that Maggs wasn't coming back, what would you do? Would you continue holding out on a trade until you got what you felt was appropriate? Let's suppose that no team decided to trade with you until Maggs the last day to trade. Your choices would be say, the current Dodger offer or nothing come the next day. Remember, that for each day that passes by only puts Williams in a tighter and tighter bind to trade Maggs and the other GM's know this. The White Sox only saving grace is to hope that several teams want Maggs as the trade deadline approaches.

But hey, like I said earlier, I would not do this trade either but for reasons obviously different than your own.

Daver
01-07-2004, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Rex Hudler
Teams backload contracts so it will reflect the true value of a player and of what he would have earned if he had gone year to year. Most teams do it with contracts for younger players. They would naturally earn increasingly more each year they produce at a high level, so the contract is structured to reflect that.



That is not always true,teams have backloaded contracts with every intention of getting the player they want signed on the dotted line and never intending to still own his contract when the dollar amounts increase past what they feel they want to pay them,the KC Royals have done that for years.

Brian26
01-07-2004, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Encarnacion can't be traded back to the Marlins for 6 months. LA could send him anywhere else, though.

Ah, my mistake. Thanks.

mac9001
01-07-2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
I can respect everyone's opinion here and I understand how you would feel about the trade as do I. I for one would be very relunctant to do this. I would rather wait until next year and try to sign Maggs without giving up anything.

And maybe I have this wrong but I thought the White Sox were trying to better their pitching, albeit, you would be receiving relievers, they appear to be better than what you currently have. Secondly, I thought that the White Sox had to lower payroll per JR's mandate. So you have have accomplished that too.

I guess what I find puzzling is that some White Sox fans feel that Maggs is worth more than what other teams are willing to trade, and you have a legitimate right to feel that way, but if you were the GM and knew that Maggs wasn't coming back, what would you do? Would you continue holding out on a trade until you got what you felt was appropriate? Let's suppose that no team decided to trade with you until Maggs the last day to trade. Your choices would be say, the current Dodger offer or nothing come the next day. Remember, that for each day that passes by only puts Williams in a tighter and tighter bind to trade Maggs and the other GM's know this. The White Sox only saving grace is to hope that several teams want Maggs as the trade deadline approaches.

But hey, like I said earlier, I would not do this trade either but for reasons obviously different than your own.

It's simple, even thought the Sox's will probably lose Mags next season it doesn't mean their just gonna give him away (which is the case with this trade). The Sox's have time and they don't need to make a rush trade and if that can't get fair value for him, they'll hold on to him and take their chances at resigning him. The trade your proposing is ridiculous, i'll just leave it at that.

Rex Hudler
01-07-2004, 09:03 PM
By the way, isn't there a rule that says Encarnacion can't be traded for at least 6 months since the Dodgers just signed him as a free agent? Same rule that applied to Everett applies here.

The Marlins traded Encarnacion to the Dodgers. He was not a free agent. Therefore, the comparison to Everett is not accurate. Encarnacion, could indeed be traded.

spanishwhite
01-08-2004, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
I can respect everyone's opinion here and I understand how you would feel about the trade as do I. I for one would be very relunctant to do this. I would rather wait until next year and try to sign Maggs without giving up anything.

And maybe I have this wrong but I thought the White Sox were trying to better their pitching, albeit, you would be receiving relievers, they appear to be better than what you currently have. Secondly, I thought that the White Sox had to lower payroll per JR's mandate. So you have have accomplished that too.

I guess what I find puzzling is that some White Sox fans feel that Maggs is worth more than what other teams are willing to trade, and you have a legitimate right to feel that way, but if you were the GM and knew that Maggs wasn't coming back, what would you do? Would you continue holding out on a trade until you got what you felt was appropriate? Let's suppose that no team decided to trade with you until Maggs the last day to trade. Your choices would be say, the current Dodger offer or nothing come the next day. Remember, that for each day that passes by only puts Williams in a tighter and tighter bind to trade Maggs and the other GM's know this. The White Sox only saving grace is to hope that several teams want Maggs as the trade deadline approaches.

But hey, like I said earlier, I would not do this trade either but for reasons obviously different than your own.

I think you are undervaluing Garland, my man. Garland is only 24 and has proven that at the very worst he is average.

I also think you are forgetting about the AL-NL jump. When Garland goes over to that spacious stadium of yours his era will drop to at the very worst 3.50 era.

Otherwise, I think it is a pretty fair trade(minus Garland).

I dont know why you would deplete your ridiculously good bullpen though.

spanishwhite
01-08-2004, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
Let's suppose that no team decided to trade with you until Maggs the last day to trade. Your choices would be say, the current Dodger offer or nothing come the next day. Remember, that for each day that passes by only puts Williams in a tighter and tighter bind to trade Maggs and the other GM's know this. [/B]

Sorry, should have posted with my other one. But you could spin this towards our way too. Whoever loses the Vlad sweepstakes is going to look towards Maggs. And considering what teams look to make a run for the playoffs next year that could be Mets, Orioles, Braves, Dodgers, and possibly Redsox. When five teams are bidding for one player who would make a big difference in the playoffs, the price will go up.

Even if we dont find value = to Maggs. You finally have to remember that we play in the worst division in baseball. The Royals(with all their signings) look to be the frontrunners with an ace called Brian Anderson. Hmmm... this division belongs to no one. It belongs to the hottest team down the stretch just like last year. So, keeping Maggs could give us a ticket to the playoffs.

All that aside, I like your team, and it is interesting to see other sides to the story.

kempsted
01-08-2004, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by spanishwhite
Sorry, should have posted with my other one. But you could spin this towards our way too. Whoever loses the Vlad sweepstakes is going to look towards Maggs. And considering what teams look to make a run for the playoffs next year that could be Mets, Orioles, Braves, Dodgers, and possibly Redsox. When five teams are bidding for one player who would make a big difference in the playoffs, the price will go up.

Even if we dont find value = to Maggs. You finally have to remember that we play in the worst division in baseball. The Royals(with all their signings) look to be the frontrunners with an ace called Brian Anderson. Hmmm... this division belongs to no one. It belongs to the hottest team down the stretch just like last year. So, keeping Maggs could give us a ticket to the playoffs.

All that aside, I like your team, and it is interesting to see other sides to the story.

Sorry but what Vlad sweepstakes? He has one offer from the O's no one else has even made an offer. The Mets say it won't happen - only the Dodgers and they most likely will not out bid Baltimore. The Bo Sox only wanted Maggs assuming they no longer had Manny Ramirez. So once again it is only the Dodgers that want Vlad that won't get him and Williams has already gone down this path.

SSN721
01-08-2004, 06:38 AM
Originally posted by poorme
i'd rather deal ordonez for mota straight up.

Isn't this supposed to be in another color or are you being serious? I think that is absolutely ridiculous if you are truly serious. :o:

poorme
01-08-2004, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by SSN721
Isn't this supposed to be in another color or are you being serious? I think that is absolutely ridiculous if you are truly serious. :o:

?? You'd trade Garland and Schoenweiss for Encarnacion and Shuey?

I'm a big Garland hater, but even I wouldn't do that. Why make a bad trade worse?

SoxxoS
01-08-2004, 09:17 AM
I'll trade Maggs for Greg Miller and Mota, then use the remaining money to sign Ponson.

Maggs for Miller (The best pitching prospect in baseball) a reliever and Ponson doesn't sound so bad...

jabrch
01-08-2004, 09:31 AM
"ok before you get all upset i am just letting u no what i heard and want to no if u would do this. my accounting teacher (a huge a reliable sox fan) told me he heard that la and the sox might pull the trigger to this trade Magglio Ordonez, Jon Garland, and Scott Schoenwies for Juan Encarnacion, Paul Shuey, and Guillermo Mota"

Then the dodgers can trade Schoenwies to Texas for A-Rod, move Garland to Boston for Manny, bring Lasorda back to manage the club, plate the seats in Dodger Stadium with gold and...

That's ridiculous and not even worht the bandwidth that we wasted talking about it.

Dadawg_77
01-08-2004, 10:25 AM
I would rather offer Mags arbitration this off season and if he walks those two draft picks will be more valuable then this trade.

Garland should be very effective in LA, he is a ground ball pitcher with a nice sinker. Gives up a tad to many fly balls, but Chavez should help him there.

mdep524
01-08-2004, 10:58 AM
Forget about Shuey and Mota. I would say the key to any trade with the Dodgers would have to be getting Greg Miller and/or Edwin Jackson. Those guys are studs- from everything I read and can observe, they're going to be front of the rotation starting pitchers. We don't need to trade our best player for a journeyman reliever (Shuey) and a 31-year-old Mota whose career ERA before 2003 was 4.38, which is bound to take a significant hit in the AL and away from pitcher-friendly LA.

There is probably no way the Dodgers would give up both of thier top pitching prospects, but I'd at least test the waters with an offer like:
Maggs, Joe Borchard and Schoeneweis for Miller and Jackson.

Unlikely, but its a place to start.

jabrch
01-08-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by mdep524
Forget about Shuey and Mota. I would say the key to any trade with the Dodgers would have to be getting Greg Miller and/or Edwin Jackson. Those guys are studs- from everything I read and can observe, they're going to be front of the rotation starting pitchers. We don't need to trade our best player for a journeyman reliever (Shuey) and a 31-year-old Mota whose career ERA before 2003 was 4.38, which is bound to take a significant hit in the AL and away from pitcher-friendly LA.

There is probably no way the Dodgers would give up both of thier top pitching prospects, but I'd at least test the waters with an offer like:
Maggs, Joe Borchard and Schoeneweis for Miller and Jackson.

Unlikely, but its a place to start.

LA has already said that neither of them are available. I think maybe in a Magglio deal we might be able to get 1 of them if KW milks Evans dry. But I don't even know if that is a sure thing. As far as getting both Jackson and Miller - forget it - not gonna happen.

mdep524
01-08-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
As far as getting both Jackson and Miller - forget it - not gonna happen.


Yeah, you're right, the chances of us getting both are pretty much zilch. But I like the direction of that kind of trade better than trading Maggs for a couple relief pitchers. Maybe we could get one of Miller or Jackson and then a lesser prospect.

jabrch
01-08-2004, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by mdep524
Yeah, you're right, the chances of us getting both are pretty much zilch. But I like the direction of that kind of trade better than trading Maggs for a couple relief pitchers. Maybe we could get one of Miller or Jackson and then a lesser prospect.

Miller or Jackson and Mota along with Odalis Perez is the one I heard most of...

voodoochile
01-08-2004, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
Actually, I think the White Sox get the better of this deal and here is why.

First, you would get Encarnacion who is a decent OF. He is a decent batter with a career .270 ave, 19 hr's, and a career OPS 0f .758 which is very respectable. He is an excellent defensive glove with speed.

Paul Shuey has a career 3.57 era and had a 3.00 era last season. He pitched in 62 games with 69 innings pitched. Take out the years 1994 and 1997, then he has pitched very well. He is a good middle reliever.

Guillermo Mota, who appears to be the key for Williams, was on top of his game last season. In the previous years, he wasn't that good. Last season, he pitched the most innings ever in his career. He struck out 99 in a 105 innings for a 1.97 era. His career era is 3.53. There is the belief here by some that feel he is overrated. But I think he will be the same pitcher that he was last season come this season. Let me tell you why. The Dodger pitching coaches knew he had velocity. He pitches around 93-95 mph, but he was wild when he came from the Expos. I even questioned why they wanted someone who constantly missed the plate. I don't know what they did to his mechanics, but what ever they told him to correct, it worked. In addition, the Dodgers had him work on a change up to complement his fastball. Now he has both working and I really believe that is why his era dropped from 4.15 to 1.97 in one season. The batters were either late on his fastball or they were breaking their wrists trying to hold up on his change up. He now knows how to pitch instead of just throwing wildly towards the plate. So, is he the real deal? You had better believe it.

The White Sox are purportedly offerring:

Maggs who without question is a tremendous offensive threat. Top 15 as was pointed out to me earlier. One caveat though. He could walk from the Dodgers as well. That just doesn't sit well with me. I for one would hate to trade for a player that decided to leave later.

Scott Schoeneweis pitched in 62 games with 64.2 innings pitched last season with an era of 4.18. He struck out 56. He has a career era of 5.08. Needless to say, that is high by any standard.

Jon Garland started 32 games last season. Finished 12-13 with 191.2 innings pitched. He struck out 108. Finished with an era of 4.51. His era too is relatively high. His stats indicates that he's not overpowering.

So, in my opinion, the WhiteSox pitching gets much better, a lower payroll, and cash no longer going to Maggs to boot to pursue free agent pitchers like Ponson. Thus you get something for Maggs who by the end of the season would have walked anyway.

The Dodgers get an outstanding hitter and the risk of that hitter filing for free agency anyway along with two so-so pitchers and an increase in payroll.

Advantage Sox.

That's nuts. The Sox pitching gets better, but they are giving away two of their projected starters and getting only relievers back? In addition they are giving up a guy who is entering his offensive prime and has 1.000 OPS capability for a guy with a career .758 OPS?

How exactly does this make the Sox stronger? Pass that Dodger crack pipe...

mdep524
01-08-2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Miller or Jackson and Mota along with Odalis Perez is the one I heard most of...

And this brings us full-circle, since this was one of the very first Sox-LA trade proposals we heard for Mags. I think this is the one that the Sox are clearly best off with.

jabrch
01-08-2004, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by mdep524
And this brings us full-circle, since this was one of the very first Sox-LA trade proposals we heard for Mags. I think this is the one that the Sox are clearly best off with.


It still makes good sense for us. If the Dodgers could get us to throw in one more player who can help them, might they do it?

Borchard? PK (oh dare I dream)?

Come on Danny Evans, do it for Schu!

SSN721
01-08-2004, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by poorme
?? You'd trade Garland and Schoenweiss for Encarnacion and Shuey?

I'm a big Garland hater, but even I wouldn't do that. Why make a bad trade worse?

No I wouldn't make that trade either. I was just saying that if I was gonna trade Maggs it better be for more than a set-up man, LA would have to throw in one or two of those stud pitching prospects for me to think the deal is anything close to fair.

LATruBlue
01-08-2004, 02:28 PM
Hey, no need for the insults. (i.e. crack pipe. etc). I give you and every one else here respect and deference toward your opinions. If you don't like my opinion, you can say so respectfully. We're only talking baseball.

Some of you feel that the trade is in favor of the Dodgers. Ok. No problem there.

But once again, I think that a point is being missed here. The White Sox more than likely will not have Maggs' services for next season. So the team should try to re-position itself, especially in light of JR's mandate to reduce payroll, the need to better the pitching staff and Maggs leaving.

In accepting Shuey and Mota, your middle relief and closer would be solved. That's a good thing.

Money would be saved and you could sign Ponson. Good starting pitching added. That's a good thing.

You would have added a decent replacement bat and excellent glove in Encarnacion or you could use him as trade bait for other pitching during the season.

And you would have reduced your overall payroll. A good thing.

So you would have added a starter, middle relief, a closer, a replacement bat and lowered payroll. I would think from an overall stand point, that worked out well for the White Sox.

But of course, some of who think that this isn't a good thing and would rather hold out with the possibility of getting something else, two draft picks or nothing.

Oh, and the something else could be much better. (For the guy that thinks I spin only one way).

voodoochile
01-08-2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
Hey, no need for the insults. (i.e. crack pipe. etc). I give you and every one else here respect and deference toward your opinions. If you don't like my opinion, you can say so respectfully. We're only talking baseball.

Some of you feel that the trade is in favor of the Dodgers. Ok. No problem there.

But once again, I think that a point is being missed here. The White Sox more than likely will not have Maggs' services for next season. So the team should try to re-position itself, especially in light of JR's mandate to reduce payroll, the need to better the pitching staff and Maggs leaving.

In accepting Shuey and Mota, your middle relief and closer would be solved. That's a good thing.

Money would be saved and you could sign Ponson. Good starting pitching added. That's a good thing.

You would have added a decent replacement bat and excellent glove in Encarnacion or you could use him as trade bait for other pitching during the season.

And you would have reduced your overall payroll. A good thing.

So you would have added a starter, middle relief, a closer, a replacement bat and lowered payroll. I would think from an overall stand point, that worked out well for the White Sox.

But of course, some of who think that this isn't a good thing and would rather hold out with the possibility of getting something else, two draft picks or nothing.

Oh, and the something else could be much better. (For the guy that thinks I spin only one way).

It was intended as a joke. Sort of a harder version of "pass the bong". Smoking (insert your team's name here) crack is a runing gag around these parts, so please don't take it personally.

I didn't and don't see the merits of this trade from a Sox perspective. There is no way they are going to decimate their projected starting rotation to that extent, IMO.

If they couldn't sign Ponson after making the trade, they would be seriously screwed. If they Dodgers get all of that, they would have to toss back at least 2 SP, IMO. Money saved or not, the fans would NOT be happy if this trade went down...

Dadawg_77
01-08-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
Hey, no need for the insults. (i.e. crack pipe. etc). I give you and every one else here respect and deference toward your opinions. If you don't like my opinion, you can say so respectfully. We're only talking baseball.

Some of you feel that the trade is in favor of the Dodgers. Ok. No problem there.

But once again, I think that a point is being missed here. The White Sox more than likely will not have Maggs' services for next season. So the team should try to re-position itself, especially in light of JR's mandate to reduce payroll, the need to better the pitching staff and Maggs leaving.

In accepting Shuey and Mota, your middle relief and closer would be solved. That's a good thing.

Money would be saved and you could sign Ponson. Good starting pitching added. That's a good thing.

You would have added a decent replacement bat and excellent glove in Encarnacion or you could use him as trade bait for other pitching during the season.

And you would have reduced your overall payroll. A good thing.

So you would have added a starter, middle relief, a closer, a replacement bat and lowered payroll. I would think from an overall stand point, that worked out well for the White Sox.

But of course, some of who think that this isn't a good thing and would rather hold out with the possibility of getting something else, two draft picks or nothing.

Oh, and the something else could be much better. (For the guy that thinks I spin only one way).

Crack pipe referencer is saying you are drinking too much dodger blue kool aid. Not so much insult but a statement that your opinions are tainted by being a Dodger fan.

You can solve the middle relief problem by picking up some good FA out there. The what a reliever did last year has little to do with what he will do this year. Mota could go back to the 4 ERA pitcher. Plus Mota and Sheuy are coming up for contract next year or the year after that, so the Sox may not have that much longer. Also in my opinion two first/sandwich round draft picks are worth more then Mota and Sheuy, you might be able to get a solid young position or starting pitcher there.

spanishwhite
01-08-2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
Sorry but what Vlad sweepstakes? He has one offer from the O's no one else has even made an offer. The Mets say it won't happen - only the Dodgers and they most likely will not out bid Baltimore. The Bo Sox only wanted Maggs assuming they no longer had Manny Ramirez. So once again it is only the Dodgers that want Vlad that won't get him and Williams has already gone down this path.

You're right, maybe I got a little cute naming it the Vlad sweepstakes, I guess I should have had it in teal.

I guess you mean the Dodgers that want Maggs. And if you what you say is true then that means Vlad can ONLY go to the Orioles, being that its his only offer(wonder whats taking him so long to decide). Fine, looking at the Mets outfield, they sure as hell wouldnt mind to grab Maggs. JD Drew is injury prone as they get and even if stays healthy in the outfield, Im sure they wouldnt mind doing a little shifting to put CJones at first and Maggs in the outfield. The BoSox could put Manny at DH and Maggs in the outfield.

I was just naming potential suitors. The point was when you get down to the trading deadline, teams get desperate. The BoSox gave up their best prospect for half a season of Suppan? The Giants gave up three very solid prospects for half a season of Ponson? So why would we accept a trade that wasnt any good right now?

LATruBlue
01-08-2004, 02:51 PM
No prob. Just wanted to be clear, that's all.

Anyway, it should be interesting to see how this all unfolds, especially in light of the rumored reports that Vlad is close to signing with the O's. Good luck on your 2004 season.

By the way, I may be a Dodger fan and do have an admitted bias towards my team, yet I do have an affinity for the Chicagoland area. I have family and friends there. So it's not like I haven't seen Comiskey Park off the 90/94 while driving to Navy Pier.

MisterB
01-08-2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
But once again, I think that a point is being missed here. The White Sox more than likely will not have Maggs' services for next season. So the team should try to re-position itself, especially in light of JR's mandate to reduce payroll, the need to better the pitching staff and Maggs leaving.

In accepting Shuey and Mota, your middle relief and closer would be solved. That's a good thing.

Neither Shuey nor Mota are closers. Shuey's a very good reliver, but even with salary being freed up $4.2M is too much to be paying a setup man under the current budget. Mota's a question mark since last year was out of line with any previous performance. Besides, by weakening our rotation and offense these two aren't going to have a lot of leads to protect.

Money would be saved and you could sign Ponson. Good starting pitching added. That's a good thing.

All told this deal would only leave about $5M that can be spent (since we're currently about $5M over budget). No way we can get Ponson for that. We might be able to replace Garland's numbers, but not much more (and the FA pool is mighty shallow right now).

You would have added a decent replacement bat and excellent glove in Encarnacion or you could use him as trade bait for other pitching during the season.

And you would have reduced your overall payroll. A good thing.

Encarnacion is a major downgrade from Ordonez offensively. And if we have to go into next year with a rotation of Buehrle, Loiaza, and 3 from the pool of Dan Wright, Jon Rauch, Jon Adkins, Jason Grilli, Neal Cotts, Enemencio Pacheco, and/or some mediocre FA signing, we're going to need all the offense we can get.

So you would have added a starter, middle relief, a closer, a replacement bat and lowered payroll. I would think from an overall stand point, that worked out well for the White Sox.


I see a weakened rotation, a weakened offense, and an improved bullpen that will see a lead less than half the time. This deal would be a payroll dump and not much more. The $5M will be spent on 6 warm bodies making $800k each.

Foulke You
01-08-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by LATruBlue
But once again, I think that a point is being missed here. The White Sox more than likely will not have Maggs' services for next season. So the team should try to re-position itself, especially in light of JR's mandate to reduce payroll, the need to better the pitching staff and Maggs leaving.

Being out of the Chicago mix, LATruBlue you may or may not know that Magglio Ordonez is easily the most popular (and best) player on the White Sox. I believe Kenny Williams knows that if they trade him, it will be a very touchy PR situation and he would need to make a big splash. Notice, they tried to bring in Nomar Garciaparra to take the sting away from losing Maggs.

There simply doesn't seem to be enough star power in your proposed LA trade for this to happen. Sox GM Kenny Williams has said recently (after the Nomar trade fell apart) that he doesn't expect anything "exciting" or significant on the horizon and he likes the team the way it is. The Sox seem fully prepared to start the year as is and take it as it comes. Therefore, unless Dan Evans overwhelms Kenny Williams in that deal, I don't see this happening.

A. Cavatica
01-08-2004, 05:25 PM
I heard Peter Gammons on WEEI (Boston) today saying the Nomar-for-Maggs trade "is still out there". I didn't hear enough of the context to know if he meant "out there if either team wants to pursue it" or "out there meaning it's actively being worked on".

fogie
01-08-2004, 05:44 PM
I don't like it, Maggs is white sox baseball and should stay in Chicago forever. :smile:

petekat
01-08-2004, 06:07 PM
LA TRuBlue, nice of you to visit,hopefully you'll actually stop in for a game at 35th and Shields rather than just driving past on the way to navy pier. by the way, why do Dodger fans arrive late and leave early? That always puzzled me when i visit out there

CWSGuy406
01-08-2004, 06:21 PM
I agree, LAFan, you are underrating Jon Garland. Though his numbers haven't been spectacular, he will have an even better ERA in your big ballpark. Jon Garland is also still very young, 24 or 25, right?

I fully expect Jon to have 13-18 wins this year, with a sub 4 ERA. At least, that's what I hope he can do for us.

I guess if I were Kenny, I'd trade Maggs and Shoen for Perez and Miller, maybe even throwing in Mota. Fair for both sides, I believe. In the end, I don't think any trade will happen between these two teams, just talk. We shall see.

LATruBlue
01-09-2004, 02:31 AM
petekat,

Having attended many Dodger games in the "Ravine", I can tell you that people arrive late and leave early because they are either held up in traffic trying to get there or they are trying to beat the traffic when they leave. Even though Dodger Stadium is located off of two major freeways (i.e. expressways), one must usually enter the parking lot area through two entry ways to the park. So the traffic converges terribly. It's really a mess. There is talk of building a new stadium in downtown LA. I'm sure that access to that stadium will definitely be considered should they folllow through on the idea.

StillMissOzzie
01-09-2004, 02:43 AM
I've been to all of 1 Dodger game in my life, and it was when I was in 6th grade, so I wasn't the one dealing with traffic. But logically thinking, if everyone else leaves in the 7th to avaoid traffic, aren't they CAUSING the traffic jam they trying to avoid? It seems to me that you'd beat traffic by staying for the whole game!

SMO
:gulp:

Maybe they're leaving because they stop selling beer at the end of the 7th!

LATruBlue
01-09-2004, 02:48 AM
CWSGuy406,

You may be right that I'm underestimating Garland's ability. I haven't followed him at all so all that I have to go by is his numbers.

By I suspect that you're right that there probably won't be a trade but you never know.

The sentiment among Dodger fans concerning their minor league arms is to not trade them for anyone. I tend to think that the Dodgers believe that they might have another "Pedro Martinez" in their midst and do not want to make the mistake of trading him away again.

yadosoxfan
01-15-2004, 03:51 PM
This trade would dig the Sox into an even bigger hole in pitching, seeing that the orioles just signed ponson.

voodoochile
01-15-2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by yadosoxfan
This trade would dig the Sox into an even bigger hole in pitching, seeing that the orioles just signed ponson.

Welcome Aboard! :D: