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View Full Version : Sit Down Ryno! - HOF Thread


havelj
01-06-2004, 02:06 PM
He didn't make HOF.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1701698

Hondo
01-06-2004, 02:10 PM
Good. That's the best news I've heard all day.

jabrch
01-06-2004, 02:12 PM
No Cubs (Sandberg and Dawson)

DrCrawdad
01-06-2004, 02:12 PM
http://homepage.mac.com/dcrosby/.Pictures/Cubs_Agony.jpg

Dadawg_77
01-06-2004, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
No Cubs (Sandberg and Dawson)

Eckersly was a Cub.

DrCrawdad
01-06-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Eckersly was a Cub.

True, but the only thing his tenure with the Cubbie did to help his career was leaving.

Jerko
01-06-2004, 02:47 PM
Great, now when Sandburg is 65 years old and only has one leg left, we'll have to see Ryne Sandburg flag memorial day the NEXT time the Cubs and Red Sox are both "5 outs away" from being World Series opponents.

Dadawg_77
01-06-2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
True, but the only thing his tenure with the Cubbie did to help his career was leaving.

Before they knew who made it, I asked my Cubbie crack smoking friends how they felt about another former Cubbie in the hall. It was nice to see their hopes rises only to learn is was Dennis Eckersly.

miker
01-06-2004, 03:18 PM
Awwww, poor Ryno.

Lest we forget the best Second Baseman in Chicago baseball history (on your right)....
:luis&nell

jabrch
01-06-2004, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
Eckersly was a Cub.

yeah, but not a CUB. You can play for the Cubs and not be a CUB. Eck's worst years were with the Cubs, IIRC. He was a below average starter at that point. He went 6-11 in his last year with the Cubs. They traded him for nothing cuz he was washed up. LaRussa took him and made him a closer. Only then did his career take off. If not for LaRussa, Eck doesn't make it.

T-Bag
01-06-2004, 03:26 PM
WOW Jim Eisenrich got 3 votes, I better check the voting each year, I may just get some too!!

:D:

Tragg
01-06-2004, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by T-Bag
WOW Jim Eisenrich got 3 votes, I better check the voting each year, I may just get some too!!

:D:

LOL

Who are the 25% who vote for steve garvey year after year?

jabrch
01-06-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
LOL

Who are the 25% who vote for steve garvey year after year?

Probably all his illigitimate children!

idseer
01-06-2004, 05:04 PM
hof voting is a joke.
sandberg belongs before molitor.

ozzman
01-06-2004, 05:07 PM
Dawson received 45 percent of the vote in 2002, his first year of Hall eligibility. He said he will not lobby to one day hear the Hall's call.
"You're judged by what you do on the field," Dawson said. "If that's not good enough, then so be it."

Ya hear that ronnie? now go hobble back into the corner and dont try to cry your way into the hof again.

Fridaythe13thJason
01-06-2004, 05:10 PM
Yeah, come on now gang....you may not like the Cubs, and that is fine, but Ryne Sandberg was an awesome second baseman. He is the all-time homeruns leader, played some slick defense, and was well-respected by most baseball people. Let's not get so silly about the Cubs that we think Sandberg isn't a HOF player. That's just silly, and it does more to point out that some people know little about baseball...which I don't think is true.

jabrch
01-06-2004, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by ozzman
Ya hear that ronnie? now go hobble back into the corner and dont try to cry your way into the hof again.


That was just plain old mean spirited...Funny - but mean spirited.

hose
01-06-2004, 06:23 PM
I think Sandberg should get into the hall of fame some day.

Dawson.....nope

faneidde
01-06-2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by hose
I think Sandberg should get into the hall of fame some day.

Dawson.....nope
I agree, I'd vote Sandberg in next year, but I just don't think he's first ballot worthy, but neither is Paul Molitor.

ChiWhiteSox1337
01-06-2004, 06:39 PM
I love how ESPN had "20 game winner with Boston Red Sox" under Eckersly's name when he was talking about making the HOF

Grobber33
01-06-2004, 11:25 PM
It's good to see there is some reason around here,of course some of you will allow your hatred for the Cubs to cause you to make silly comments. BOTH Sandberg and Dawson belong,and both WILL get in so deal with it.So likely will Bruce Sutter who is getting closer. Ryno probably gets in next year unless the Writers pull one of their stunts like voting in nobody.That Sandberg did'nt get in the first(or second)try is typical of the BBWAA. Remember,guys like Hank Aaron,Willie Mays and others of their caliber were not unanimously voted in. Some higher than almighty Scribes like to show their 'power' and prove they can keep a Player like those two from getting every vote.Some screwballs think it's required to make Players wait until the 2nd or 3rd ballot. The did that to Carlton Fisk who should have been a first ballot guy! What kind of crap is that?
Either a guy IS or IS NOT a HOFer,,this BS of 'making them wait their turn shows that perhaps Writers should be forced to share this process with Broadcasters-or lose the right to vote completely. You gonna tell me that some 32 year old snot nosed Writer in Atlanta should vote while Vin Scully,Harry Kalas,and Jon Miller should'nt? It's a Writers Assn Ego Trip just like the MVP,CY YOUNG and award votes like those are.
BTW, I have also said Harold Baines deserves consideration,and many of my Sox Fan Friends have pounded me on that since he was a DH since his knees went bad.

fquaye149
01-07-2004, 12:07 AM
Originally posted by idseer
hof voting is a joke.
sandberg belongs before molitor.


you are wrong unless you are referring to how molitor was a dh....

in which case, you might be right, but are probably still wrong

Saracen
01-07-2004, 12:15 AM
Molitor played EIGHT of his 21 years at DH. He's one of only a handful of people in MLB history to play at least 50 games at every infield position, as well as at least 50 in the outfield. He had 3300 hits and 500 steals for crying out loud. He once stole third 10 times in one season! He deserves it.

This wasn't your typical slow as dirt can't play the field DH.

red faber
01-07-2004, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by havelj
He didn't make HOF.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1701698


he's a cub.

so screw him!!!!!!!

i couldn't care less if he makes it to the H.O.F!!!!!!!!

TommyJohn
01-07-2004, 01:03 AM
How in the world did Kevin "Cat Decapitator" Mitchell get 2
votes? Or 1, for that matter? Did he have a couple of buds
in the BBWAA?

CubKilla
01-07-2004, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by UICJason
Ryne Sandberg was well-respected by most baseball people.

Maybe Ryno's wife could sway a few votes his way. I heard she's "well-respected" by most baseball players she's met.

DrCrawdad
01-07-2004, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
It's good to see there is some reason around here, of course some of you will allow your hatred for the Cubs to cause you to make silly comments. BOTH Sandberg and Dawson belong,and both WILL get in so deal with it.So likely will Bruce Sutter who is getting closer. Ryno probably gets in next year unless the Writers pull one of their stunts like voting in nobody...

You want to see some super silliness and hatred? Post a message in ANY Cubbie discussion group on the topic of Frank Thomas' qualifications for the HOF.

As for Ryne Sandberg getting in to the HOF, he probably will get in next year. Honestly though I don't give a rat's arse about Ryne Sandberg and his bid for the HOF. And for comparison I won't be crying or wringing my hands when Frank Thomas comes up for consideration either.

Nellie Comiskey
01-07-2004, 01:30 AM
Are Molitor & Eck really worthy so soon....No. I guess there is a rule that there has to be a HOF ceremony with a couple modern day players or Cooperstown can't take a financial hit like with no big event. Molitor, Eck, (as much as I do not like to admit)Ryno and Dawson are all HOF material...I really became disgruntled and lost respect last year when Gary Carter was elected. Even though he was really great for ten years, I just never really saw him as a HOF....a fringe HOFer. Hopefully the Vets comm will elect Minnie....they finally got it right in 1997(Nellie Fox). Here's a really good question....if Dawson is elected in the future what team/cap will he select to put on his plaque. And Pete Rose should never get in....this is so convenient that a book and one year left of eligibility remains. If you believe Rose never bet against the Reds your nuts. :comiskey

Tragg
01-07-2004, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Grobber33
It's good to see there is some reason around here,of course some of you will allow your hatred for the Cubs to cause you to make silly comments. BOTH Sandberg and Dawson belong,and both WILL get in so deal with it.So likely will Bruce Sutter who is getting closer. .

Get real

Sandberg- probably, although his stats are remarkably similar to Lou Whittaker - 30 more homers, 20 less OBP average. Does Lou belong

Dawson- no way- his stats aren't as good as Baines' and Harold doesn't belong.


Sutter- ridiculous notion

ma-gaga
01-07-2004, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by idseer
hof voting is a joke.
sandberg belongs before molitor.

Seriously?

Molitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/molitpa01.shtml) played for 5 more years, had 1000 more hits, 100 more stolen bases, the same number of strikeouts, 20 points in career batting average, 25 points in on-base percentage, similar slugging, 3 WS rings, and that doesn't sway you?

Do you like ops+? Sandberg (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sandbry01.shtml) had 6 years of an ops+ of > 120, Molitor had 11. I didn't pick that number just to be favorable to Molitor. An OPS+ between 100-120 in my opinion is just someone average having a good year. If you start consistantly putting up ops+'s of 120+ there's serious skill involved, and that's 5 more years of dominance at the plate...

I can see some things going for Sandberg:
League MVP
10 time all-star vs 7 time all-star
2nd Baseman > DH
Molitor really had relatively little power for a dh, and Sandberg had good power for a second baseman. They both hit about the same number of career homeruns.

The longevity of Molitor, the consistant dominance at the plate, and his 3300+ hits make him an automatic in. It's sad, but his last year, as a 41 year old, for the 1998 Twins, he was the best player on that team. I remember watching that team, and as good as Todd Walker (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/1998.shtml) looks now on the team page, he never was that intimidating at the plate.

Well, maybe in 1997 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/1997.shtml) he was the best player on the team. Ugh, that was a bad year.

MarqSox
01-07-2004, 08:26 AM
Anybody see the poll on ChicagoSports.com?

"When will Sandberg be elected to the HOF?
1-2 years
3-4 years
5 years or more
He'll be a Veterans Committee selection"

Notice that "Never" is not a poll option. Thanks Cubune.

TaylorStSox
01-07-2004, 09:53 AM
IMO, the fact that he didn't make it is a disgrace. Who cares who he played for? Excellent numbers + great D = HOF for a 2nd baseman IMO.

idseer
01-07-2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
Seriously?

Molitor (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/molitpa01.shtml) played for 5 more years, had 1000 more hits, 100 more stolen bases, the same number of strikeouts, 20 points in career batting average, 25 points in on-base percentage, similar slugging, 3 WS rings, and that doesn't sway you?

Do you like ops+? Sandberg (http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/sandbry01.shtml) had 6 years of an ops+ of > 120, Molitor had 11. I didn't pick that number just to be favorable to Molitor. An OPS+ between 100-120 in my opinion is just someone average having a good year. If you start consistantly putting up ops+'s of 120+ there's serious skill involved, and that's 5 more years of dominance at the plate...

I can see some things going for Sandberg:
League MVP
10 time all-star vs 7 time all-star
2nd Baseman > DH
Molitor really had relatively little power for a dh, and Sandberg had good power for a second baseman. They both hit about the same number of career homeruns.

The longevity of Molitor, the consistant dominance at the plate, and his 3300+ hits make him an automatic in. It's sad, but his last year, as a 41 year old, for the 1998 Twins, he was the best player on that team. I remember watching that team, and as good as Todd Walker (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/1998.shtml) looks now on the team page, he never was that intimidating at the plate.

Well, maybe in 1997 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/1997.shtml) he was the best player on the team. Ugh, that was a bad year.


without getting into a big debate about it, or trying to match numbers i STILL say sandberg belongs before molitor.

WHY? because sandberg was better at his position than molitor was at any of his. molitor had better hitting stats ... tho not by all that much ... sandberg was a better, more vauable player PERIOD!

obviously many of you still believe the hof should only be about hitting. i don't buy that. just as i'd fill my team with players who can do everything over players that can do only one thing i WANT 2nd basemen and shortstops and catchers in the hall as much as i want the big bangers.

sandberg was one of the best 2nd basemen of all time! was molitor one of the best dhs, 2nd, 3rd, ss, outfielders of all time? an emphatic NO !

jabrch
01-07-2004, 10:20 AM
I do enjoy listening to Cubs fans cry about the anti-cub bias when both Dawson and Sandberg get jobbed. The reality is that both of these guys should be in the HOF eventually. Sandberg first - then Dawson. I think next year (Boggs is the only top quality new guy eligible) will be the year for at least Sandberg if not both of them. I will laugh my ass off when they start pushing for Grace to be in the HOF.

idseer
01-07-2004, 10:23 AM
just a little follow up.

you say paul had 5 more years? with his 5 extra years molitor made the all star team 7 times. ryne with 5 LESS years made it 10 times.

a little more comparison:

mvp - sandberg 1 - molitor 0
gold gloves - sandberg 9 - molitor 0

yes .... i'll take pick sandberg for my team before i'll pick molitor.

Dick Allen
01-07-2004, 10:51 AM
Of course, anybody brave or stupid enough (like me) to listen to the Score this morning would have heard Murphy's Weepfest over Sandberg.

TDog
01-07-2004, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
That was just plain old mean spirited...Funny - but mean spirited.

With comedy, as with White Sox baseball, somebody's going to get hurt.

CubKilla
01-07-2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
I think next year (Boggs is the only top quality new guy eligible) will be the year for at least Sandberg if not both of them.

Some sportswriters are saying Bud will reinstate Pete Rose as early as next years HoF ballot because of his admission to betting on baseball as a manager. If that's the case, and since many sportswriters are championing Rose's reinstatement, expect Ryno to be told to "sit down" next year too.

Fridaythe13thJason
01-07-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
I will laugh my ass off when they start pushing for Grace to be in the HOF.

I'm not saying he should, but I always felt it was overlooked that he had the highest batting average of any player in an entire decade. I think that's pretty impressive.

jabrch
01-07-2004, 12:43 PM
If Rose gets in and Sandberg doesn't, they will be going bonkers! It would be worth the entertainment value of it.


Originally posted by CubKilla
Some sportswriters are saying Bud will reinstate Pete Rose as early as next years HoF ballot because of his admission to betting on baseball as a manager. If that's the case, and since many sportswriters are championing Rose's reinstatement, expect Ryno to be told to "sit down" next year too.

vegyrex
01-07-2004, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
If Rose gets in and Sandberg doesn't, they will be going bonkers! It would be worth the entertainment value of it.

As much as I don't think Rose should be in the HOF, his possible reinstatement and election into the HOF keeps Ryno waiting at least another year.

I like, I like :D:

kittle42
01-07-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Dick Allen
Of course, anybody brave or stupid enough (like me) to listen to the Score this morning would have heard Murphy's Weepfest over Sandberg.

I was just going to post about this and wanted to make sure no one else had addressed it already. It was disgusting. He was running Molitor into the ground, too. "Is there anything more embarrassing than being a DH who is a singles hitter?" Yeah, Murph, being a whiny Cub fan. He also went as far as to imply that Mark Grace was just as good a player as Paul Molitor.

maurice
01-07-2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by TDog
With comedy, as with White Sox baseball, somebody's going to get hurt.

Call Rob Gallas! We have the 2004 marketing slogan.

White Sox Baseball: Somebody's Going To Get Hurt

:hurt
"Somebody say my name?"


Sandburg was the best 2B of his generation. He's not remotely in the neighborhood of the all-time great 2Bs or his contemporaries at other positions, but IMHO he should be in the HOF.

Grace is the most overrated Chicago baseball player of all time. We're talking about a guy who played a key offensive position, yet never hit more than 17 HR, never drove in 100 runs, and never had 200 hits. That makes for a pretty crappy 1B. He's a poor man's Keith Hernandez.

It's obscene that the cubbie-obsessed Chicago media used to compare Grace to Frank Thomas, a true HOFer who gets CRITICIZED when he hits 42 HR. Christ, the Crime Dog put up 30 HR / 103 RBI for the cubs and got criticized by the very same fans who praise Grace.

RKMeibalane
01-07-2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by kittle42
He also went as far as to imply that Mark Garce was just as good a player as Paul Molitor.

Oh, please. Cubs fans no have no sense of reality. In their minds, everyone who wears a Cubs uniform should be in the HOF, and a particular player doesn't make it for some reason, Cubs fans whine about him getting screwed.

The Ron Santo situation comes to mind. He was a great third baseman, but all he has done in recent years is whine and complain about not making it to the Hall of Fame. The worst part is that the entire country has bought into his "woe-is-me" attitude. Everyone from here to Rhode Island seems to think that Santo belongs in the 'Hall. What they fail to realize is that there are several other deserving players out there who have yet to hear their names called, but they aren't whining about it.

I wonder if Dawson's comments about not whining and complaining were directed at Santo.

RKMeibalane
01-07-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by maurice
It's obscene that the cubbie-obsessed Chicago media used to compare Grace to Frank Thomas, a true HOFer who gets CRITICIZED when he hits 42 HR.

The worst part about that situation was that it was his own manager who dished out most of the criticism.

:jerry

"Frank isn't helping this by hitting home runs. He's only hitting .260. That means he should hit about eighty or ninety home runs if he wants to help this club."

:jerry

"I can't imagine any reason short of an emergency for playing Frank at first base."

maurice
01-07-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
I will laugh my ass off when they start pushing for Grace to be in the HOF.

Originally posted by UICJason
I'm not saying he should, but I always felt it was overlooked that he had the highest batting average of any player in an entire decade. I think that's pretty impressive.

What decade was that?

RKMeibalane
01-07-2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by maurice
What decade was that?

Actually, Grace tied with Palmeiro for the most hits in the 1990's. He did not have the highest batting average. I think Tony Gwinn claimed that honor. Grace never managed to win a batting title, but listening to Cubs fans, one would think that he had broken Pete Rose's hit record.

DrCrawdad
01-07-2004, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Oh, please. Cubs fans no have no sense of reality. In their minds, everyone who wears a Cubs uniform should be in the HOF, and a particular player doesn't make it for some reason, Cubs fans whine about him getting screwed.

The Ron Santo situation comes to mind. He was a great third baseman, but all he has done in recent years is whine and complain about not making it to the Hall of Fame. The worst part is that the entire country has bought into his "woe-is-me" attitude. Everyone from here to Rhode Island seems to think that Santo belongs in the 'Hall. What they fail to realize is that there are several other deserving players out there who have yet to hear their names called, but they aren't whining about it.

I wonder if Dawson's comments about not whining and complaining were directed at Santo.

Santo may very well merit being in the HOF. However Santo's perpetual whining is very tiring, especially when you hear him say that he doesn't complain or campaign for getting in the HOF.

Fridaythe13thJason
01-07-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Actually, Grace tied with Palmeiro for the most hits in the 1990's. He did not have the highest batting average. I think Tony Gwinn claimed that honor. Grace never managed to win a batting title, but listening to Cubs fans, one would think that he had broken Pete Rose's hit record.

You're correct. I was off a stat. I don't know my Cubs too well, but I knew something like that was true. I still find that to be impressive, although you can really only compare that stat with other players who played all ten years and were in the prime of their career for most of it. I'm sure that list is not that large.

jabrch
01-07-2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
The worst part about that situation was that it was his own manager who dished out most of the criticism.

:jerry

"Frank isn't helping this by hitting home runs. He's only hitting .260. That means he should hit about eighty or ninety home runs if he wants to help this club."

:jerry

"I can't imagine any reason short of an emergency for playing Frank at first base."

RK, at least you are consistent. Just another opportunity to make excuses for Frank overswinging and not working hard enough to become a better first baseman... Frank is one of the all time best Sox. He is a HOFer. He is a great hitter. He was a better hitter before he tried to "just hit HRs and not worry about the gaps".

RKMeibalane
01-07-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
RK, at least you are consistent. Just another opportunity to make excuses for Frank overswinging and not working hard enough to become a better first baseman... Frank is one of the all time best Sox. He is a HOFer. He is a great hitter. He was a better hitter before he tried to "just hit HRs and not worry about the gaps".

Well, you know me... :D:

fquaye149
01-07-2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by idseer
molitor had better hitting stats ... tho not by all that much
NO !


that's a larf:

600 doubles compared to 400,


.306 career avg compared to .285


.796 ops compared to .817 for molitor - and molitor was a leadoff hitter

1782 runs compared to 1318

1307 rbi compared to 1061 - and molitor was a leadoff hitter

molitor had 1244 k's in 21 seasons and 10835 ab while sandberg had 1260 in 8385 ab in 16 seasons


and the kicker:

3319 hits to 2386......as in almost 1000 more hits than sandberg...


oh and molitor had 160 more sb's


and was a world series mvp...in addition to taking a team to the world series on multiple occasion...soemthing ryno did a grand total of zero times.

and while sandberg won an mvp and molitor won none, sandberg only finished in the top 10 three times to molitor's four, including a 2nd place finish in 1993.

i mean it's not as if you should compare players as to determine who should be in the hof and it's not as though sandberg shouldn't be in it, and it's not as though offense is everything...


but for you to say that

a.) sandberg is a better hof candidate than molitor

and

b.) paulie's offensive numbers aren't that much better


is borderline insane.

idseer
01-07-2004, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by fquaye149
that's a larf:

600 doubles compared to 400,


.306 career avg compared to .285


.796 ops compared to .817 for molitor - and molitor was a leadoff hitter

1782 runs compared to 1318

1307 rbi compared to 1061 - and molitor was a leadoff hitter

molitor had 1244 k's in 21 seasons and 10835 ab while sandberg had 1260 in 8385 ab in 16 seasons


and the kicker:

3319 hits to 2386......as in almost 1000 more hits than sandberg...


oh and molitor had 160 more sb's


and was a world series mvp...in addition to taking a team to the world series on multiple occasion...soemthing ryno did a grand total of zero times.

and while sandberg won an mvp and molitor won none, sandberg only finished in the top 10 three times to molitor's four, including a 2nd place finish in 1993.

i mean it's not as if you should compare players as to determine who should be in the hof and it's not as though sandberg shouldn't be in it, and it's not as though offense is everything...


but for you to say that

a.) sandberg is a better hof candidate than molitor

and

b.) paulie's offensive numbers aren't that much better


is borderline insane.

apparently you don't know what borderline insane is.

a fairer way to look at these two would be on a 162 game schedule.

runs - molitor 108, sandberg 99
hits - molitor 200, sandberg 179
doubles - molitor 37, sandberg 30
triples - molitor 7, sandberg 6
home runs - molitor 14, sanberg 21
rbi's - molitor 79, sandberg 79
sb - molitor 30 - sandberg 26

clearly molitor was the better hitter aside from power ... but not by much.
now let's look at fielding your position.

well whaddya know? there IS no comparison! it's sandberg hands down!

as i stated earlier, sandberg was the best 2nd baseman of his time. molitor didn't even have a position.

i STILL put sandberg on my team before i pick molitor.

fquaye149
01-07-2004, 06:34 PM
avg and ops? not that close....


plus longevity is key to hof credentials....by your logic hideo nomo is a similar pitcher to nolan ryan because their average season strikeout totals are the same. foolish.

molitor may not be one of the best fielders...though more versatile than sandberg...

but he is one of the best leadoff hitters and one of the best hitters of all time - 3,300 hits...


perhaps sandberg is one of the best 2b of his time...maybe even one of the top 15 of all time....but he only played 15 seasons, and put up rather average numbers on offense doing it with the exception of home runs.


edit: and before you bring up ozzie smith and mazeroski, among others, i am not alone in my belief that they do not belong in the hall of fame either.

washington
01-07-2004, 06:55 PM
The Cubs & WGN hyped the living daylights out of Sandberg when he was playing. He was an excellent player but not Hall of Fame-caliber. Then of course neither is Billy Williams, another over-hyped Lovable Loser