PDA

View Full Version : Sox Are Set For Season


habibharu
01-06-2004, 11:42 AM
in both the suntimes and the trib today, there were articles about how a konerko to dodgers wont happen anymore because of money. KW has been on vacation and says that he doesnt see anything big on the horizion. if we had traded PK then we would have gone after raffy

Lip Man 1
01-06-2004, 12:32 PM
For what it's worth here is Kenny comments:

"Is there anything to be excited about? I don't see anything coming right now,'' Williams said Monday. "We've gone down many roads and explored many possibilities, and I don't see anything forthcoming that will be termed major.''


I'm sure this is going to do wonders for off season ticket sales! LOL

Lip

Hangar18
01-06-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
in both the suntimes and the trib today, there were articles about how a konerko to dodgers wont happen anymore because of money. KW has been on vacation and says that he doesnt see anything big on the horizion. if we had traded PK then we would have gone after raffy


Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. So we went into the offseason
with just a couple of Holes To Fill and ready for Possible Post
Season Glory Next Year, but INSTEAD chose to Create MORE
Holes, and go into 2004 with more Holes than the Previous Yr?
Simple Math tells me we wont go to the PostSeason
if thats the case this year

Hangar18
01-06-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
For what it's worth here is Kenny comments:

"Is there anything to be excited about? I don't see anything coming right now,'' Williams said Monday. "We've gone down many roads and explored many possibilities, and I don't see anything forthcoming that will be termed major.''


I'm sure this is going to do wonders for off season ticket sales! LOL

Lip

This is going to be tough to get my Cousin to Re-up his 1/2
of the Season Ticket Package

ewokpelts
01-06-2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
in both the suntimes and the trib today, there were articles about how a konerko to dodgers wont happen anymore because of money. KW has been on vacation and says that he doesnt see anything big on the horizion. if we had traded PK then we would have gone after raffy

raffy is no better than the dp king konerko

jeremyb1
01-06-2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. So we went into the offseason
with just a couple of Holes To Fill and ready for Possible Post
Season Glory Next Year, but INSTEAD chose to Create MORE
Holes, and go into 2004 with more Holes than the Previous Yr?
Simple Math tells me we wont go to the PostSeason
if thats the case this year

No one's happy but at the point that JR has set his budget and isn't budging, what is KW supposed to do? I'm sure no one wants a move just for the sake of making a move. I hate our budget as much as the next guy but its not like this comes as a shock. JR has never been known for having loose purse strings so anyone holding out hope for a payroll over 60 million at any point in time was simply not being realistic. KW can't sign anyone unless he moves a big contract first and he cannot trade Konerko or Koch without picking up such a large portion of either player's salary that the move becomes counterproductive. Clearly, there's nothing to be pleased about but at the same time I'm not sure I see the point of complaining anymore because I don't know what KW could possibly do to improve the team especially in the eye's of those that don't want to trade Maggs without receiving equal talent in return which is an impossibility due to the market and the size of his contract.

Iwritecode
01-06-2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Clearly, there's nothing to be pleased about but at the same time I'm not sure I see the point of complaining anymore

There's not really much else to do...

lowesox
01-06-2004, 01:17 PM
This is incredible. How does the management of this franchise expect fans to get excited about this upcoming season? Why would anybody pay to see a team that has obviously cheaped out from correcting itself properly. Its kind of like being invited to a wedding where they give you water and a hotdog and still expect a $100 gift.

Fine. If they're going to be cheap, so will I.

lowesox
01-06-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
No one's happy but at the point that JR has set his budget and isn't budging, what is KW supposed to do?

I agree that he's in a tough situation, but I'm tired of people defending Williams. A good GM would get creative. Go out and find bargains.

I'm not annoyed that Williams hasn't signed Ponson. I'm annoyed that he hasn't gone out and got guys like Pete Munroe, or Pokey Reese or Jason Johnson or Kerry Lightenberg. The truth is, I don't know if any of the guys would be good pickups but the point is the scouting department should be out there shopping for bargains. You know, find another Loaiza. There are several small moves a GM can make to improve his team that don't require big $$$. Williams has done nothing. And with all the holes this team has, that's indefensible.

soxfan26
01-06-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by lowesox

I'm tired of people defending Williams. A good GM would get creative. Go out and find bargains.


Without doing a ton of research to see the slaries of the guys you named, remember that Johnon will make $3.5m next season.

The point is that this team was OVER budget from the start. So nothing could be done unless he was able to unload a big contract. So then the only remaining issue is why he didn't move the contract. According to him the deals were not going to make this team better.

Jeremy said it best:

Originally posted by jeremyb1

Clearly, there's nothing to be pleased about but at the same time I'm not sure I see the point of complaining anymore because I don't know what KW could possibly do to improve the team

JasonC23
01-06-2004, 01:37 PM
Don't worry, this is just a clever ruse by Kenny to lull us to sleep before he makes his annual "big move" SoxFest announcement!

Isn't it?

Anybody?

Sigh...

npdempse
01-06-2004, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
There's not really much else to do...

Except pray that Koch & Konerko & Schoeneweis live up to their past records.

But I'd be really surprised if Kenny isn't bluffing and has something up his sleeve. He has shown a tendency in the past to keep secrets if the guys on the other end of the deal can keep their mouths shut as well.

Hangar18
01-06-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26


The point is that this team was OVER budget from the start. So nothing could be done unless he was able to unload a big contract. So then the only remaining issue is why he didn't move the contract.

Im really get tired of that word .........BUDGET. How could a Major League Organization, mistakenly determine their budget to be 58 Million?? Knowing that it would mean the SUBTRACTION of most of the roster (of good players) which
invariably mean the team getting Worse? A correct assessment wouldve been to RAISE the payroll to KEEP UP with the BackLoaded Payments THEY CHOSE to put into their current roster of Players. Thats Like Me Splurging on that Great 8 pc Leather Living Room Set, and not having Payments/Interest to make until January of 2005. Then....In December of 04, Im
Crying that I cant make the Payments. Would Anyone feel sorry for me? I dont think so. Or is possible, just possible
that when the budget was made, they MISTAKENLY
wrote 58 when they meant 85 Million? probably not

anewman35
01-06-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I agree that he's in a tough situation, but I'm tired of people defending Williams. A good GM would get creative. Go out and find bargains.

I'm not annoyed that Williams hasn't signed Ponson. I'm annoyed that he hasn't gone out and got guys like Pete Munroe, or Pokey Reese or Jason Johnson or Kerry Lightenberg. The truth is, I don't know if any of the guys would be good pickups but the point is the scouting department should be out there shopping for bargains. You know, find another Loaiza. There are several small moves a GM can make to improve his team that don't require big $$$. Williams has done nothing. And with all the holes this team has, that's indefensible.

Wasn't Loaiza signed right before the season last year? I think KW has plenty of time to make some little non-roster invite moves like that and "find another Loaiza".

Also, remember, last season lots of people couldn't care less about the Loaiza move, not seeing the point. KW has already made some moves like that, I'm sure he'll make more (note, he said there wasn't anything very exciting happening, not that there wasn't anything at all).

Tekijawa
01-06-2004, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
The point is that this team was OVER budget from the start. So nothing could be done unless he was able to unload a big contract.

I believe we signed Valentin for 5million? That was our option correct? I think that Money could be better used elsewhere. I also believe we picked up Schoenweise, A guy who can't get righties out. That's about 6.5 Million right there that could have been better spent that Kenny picked up. I'm positive we could have got a Bad SS and a Horrible, GOD HELP US ALL, 4th Starter...

anewman35
01-06-2004, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
I believe we signed Valentin for 5million? That was our option correct? I think that Money could be better used elsewhere. I also believe we picked up Schoenweise, A guy who can't get righties out. That's about 6.5 Million right there that could have been better spent that Kenny picked up. I'm positive we could have got a Bad SS and a Horrible, GOD HELP US ALL, 4th Starter...

If we hadn't signed either of them and instead went cheap on a bad shortstop and 4th starter, don't you think that a large percentage of people here would be very mad at the Sox for "creating more holes"? At least they've gotten proven major league players for these positions (even if they aren't proven to be especially good).

Basically, KW really can't win here - whatever he does, there's a portion of Sox fans who'll never think it's any good. Personally, I think he's doing about as well as can be expected with the payroll Jerry has given him.

Tekijawa
01-06-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
If we hadn't signed either of them and instead went cheap on a bad shortstop and 4th starter, don't you think that a large percentage of people here would be very mad at the Sox for "creating more holes"? At least they've gotten proven major league players for these positions (even if they aren't proven to be especially good).

I think Proven should be in teal first of all... Second I think that we could have gotten Juan Gone and played him at SS and he probabbly would have played better there... Schoenweiss is useless against righties and EVERYONE IN THE WORLD knows that I would much rather have Sullivan on the team for the same price! I don't see everyones facination with Jose to begin with, I think I'd rather have a guy that can hit for average and play the field than hit 20+ Bombs a year and let Crede scoop up anything that is hit to their left... That Money could have been spread around a lot more to make this team better!

maurice
01-06-2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Wasn't Loaiza signed right before the season last year?

He signed a minor league deal in late January. I'm not counting on lightning striking twice, particularly when KW is literally telling us to expect nothing significant.

Also, remember, last season lots of people couldn't care less about the Loaiza move, not seeing the point.

Representative quotes from WSI posters (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16850&highlight=Loaiza):

- "mildly intriguing . . . brought in to compete for the 5th spot [and] can go to the minors if he doesn't win it."
- "Some additional , welcome depth."
- "I like these signings. [T]he Sox need a little more depth in the rotation."
- "look like a waste to me."
- "I love these moves. This is what championship teams do."
- "the key to this move is it adds depth and gives us many more options. If they suck, we dump them, if they pitch well, these are tremendous moves."
- "sweet. The more depth, the better. Good moves."
- "I like the moves."
- "Loaiza is done."
- "great moves in my opinion. we have absolutely nothing to lose with these deals and its possible that a guy like this could come up huge. i'm a huge fan of loaiza."

Then again, the typical WSI poster is a little bit smarter than the average baseball fan. :D:

lowesox
01-06-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
The point is that this team was OVER budget from the start.

I think this should be a huge red flag to any White Sox fan. A team that wasn't good enough to win their division last year was deemed drastically over an imaginary budget this year. Hey Jerry: remember how you quoted how the fans were feeling before the White Flag trade. Why don't you quote us now?

But nevermind the budget, like others have posted Williams hasn't done anything to better the cause. In fact, he's only made it worse. If there's one move this team should start with it's to find a new GM. I wonder what a guy like Pat Gillick would do with this budget. I'll bet he wouldn't just sit there on vacation with his head up his ass.

jeremyb1
01-06-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I agree that he's in a tough situation, but I'm tired of people defending Williams. A good GM would get creative. Go out and find bargains.

I'm not annoyed that Williams hasn't signed Ponson. I'm annoyed that he hasn't gone out and got guys like Pete Munroe, or Pokey Reese or Jason Johnson or Kerry Lightenberg. The truth is, I don't know if any of the guys would be good pickups but the point is the scouting department should be out there shopping for bargains. You know, find another Loaiza. There are several small moves a GM can make to improve his team that don't require big $$$. Williams has done nothing. And with all the holes this team has, that's indefensible.

The problem is that if KW is already over budget theoretically he can't even sign bargains at this point. Now you can argue that some of his decisions contributed to our current financial situation and I certainly don't agree with offering Schoenweis arbitration or signing Paully to his long term deal, but at this point in time you can't go back on those moves so starting today, if I'm GM I don't know what I can do outside of making trades that don't necessarily improve the club.

soxfan26
01-06-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Im really get tired of that word .........BUDGET. How could a Major League Organization, mistakenly determine their budget to be 58 Million?? Knowing that it would mean the SUBTRACTION of most of the roster (of good players) which
invariably mean the team getting Worse? A correct assessment wouldve been to RAISE the payroll to KEEP UP with the BackLoaded Payments THEY CHOSE to put into their current roster of Players. Thats Like Me Splurging on that Great 8 pc Leather Living Room Set, and not having Payments/Interest to make until January of 2005. Then....In December of 04, Im
Crying that I cant make the Payments. Would Anyone feel sorry for me? I dont think so. Or is possible, just possible
that when the budget was made, they MISTAKENLY
wrote 58 when they meant 85 Million? probably not

Since your in the know on Sox finances and are certain that they can spend over $58m, I can't argue that point with you. Don't forget I didn't introduce the word budget to you. This thread was about how KW has failed as a GM. Most posters on this board are well aware of how you feel about JR, KW, and the entire organization. We know about your plight to get your cousin to pick up the other half of your season tickets, about the budget cuts you will impose for the next season, etc. So while most of your posts are entertaining, this thread is about the GM.

soxfan26
01-06-2004, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think this should be a huge red flag to any White Sox fan. A team that wasn't good enough to win their division last year was deemed drastically over an imaginary budget this year. Hey Jerry: remember how you quoted how the fans were feeling before the White Flag trade. Why don't you quote us now?

But nevermind the budget, like others have posted Williams hasn't done anything to better the cause. In fact, he's only made it worse. If there's one move this team should start with it's to find a new GM. I wonder what a guy like Pat Gillick would do with this budget. I'll bet he wouldn't just sit there on vacation with his head up his ass.

The question remains then, how could you or Pat Gillick have done better, given the salary constraints? I'm sure you may have posted your ideas in other threads, but if your going to knock the guy then please enlighten us on how to properly field a winner on a $58m budget?

Dadawg_77
01-06-2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
The question remains then, how could you or Pat Gillick have done better, given the salary constraints? I'm sure you may have posted your ideas in other threads, but if your going to knock the guy then please enlighten us on how to properly field a winner on a $58m budget?


Why Pat Gillick, why not anyone from Oakland.

soxfan26
01-06-2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77

Why Pat Gillick, why not anyone from Oakland.

Originally posted by lowesox

If there's one move this team should start with it's to find a new GM. I wonder what a guy like Pat Gillick would do with this budget. I'll bet he wouldn't just sit there on vacation with his head up his ass.

lowe sox approves of his offseason travel schedule

Dadawg_77
01-06-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
lowe sox approves of his offseason travel schedule

I saw that, but my post was more aimed at the suggestion of your post that Kenny can not do anything because he is handcuffed with salary constraints. As for Pat Gillick, based on his track record, he couldn't survive in a situation like Kenny faces. While Oakland has put up team who win more then 90 games four years straight.

JasonC23
01-06-2004, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
The question remains then, how could you or Pat Gillick have done better, given the salary constraints? I'm sure you may have posted your ideas in other threads, but if your going to knock the guy then please enlighten us on how to properly field a winner on a $58m budget?

First of all, knowing my owner works on a tight, tight budget, I would not have given Konerko and Koch ridiculous contracts last offseason, thereby helping to tie my own hands behind my back the next offseason.

Jerry's a penny pincher, but Kenny knows that and still threw stupid money at those two. I refuse to feel sorry for him.

lowesox
01-06-2004, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
I'm sure you may have posted your ideas in other threads, but if your going to knock the guy then please enlighten us on how to properly field a winner on a $58m budget?

Well, I'm not being paid to be a major league GM, but (and I thank you for the opportunity) if I were I wouldn't have brought back Valentin or Showenweiss. And I would trade Lee. Since his contract is as monstrous as Ordonez's and he hasn't yet entered his prime, many GMs would be willing to pick up his contract and still offer something good in return. Then I'd use that money to bring in 5-6 quality players - not superstars.

I'd also test the market on Loaiza, because I think last year will turn out to be a fluke for him.

OEO Magglio
01-06-2004, 03:22 PM
I wonder what a guy like Pat Gillick would do with this budget. I'll bet he wouldn't just sit there on vacation with his head up his ass.
Will you remind me what Gillick did at the trade deadline to improve seattle last year? I'm pissed about this offseason too, but to say Gillick could have done better is ridiculous, kenny has proven he'll make a deal if he thinks it will improve the team, but I guess so far he hasn't seen a deal he should pull the trigger on.

Tekijawa
01-06-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
And I would trade Lee. Since his contract is as monstrous as Ordonez's and he hasn't yet entered his prime,

Actually Lee is making 7 million LESS than Maggs this year and the fact that he HASN'T YET ENTERED HIS PRIM is another reason I agree with the signing.

The Problem here is his ability to attract high priced under achievers. I doubt highly that there would be any one in this forum that would have argued Signing Sullivan and Graffinino and putting the Cash that we would have saved by releasing Valentin and Schoenweise towards a 2nd baseman, 4th or 5th starter. We wouldn't have gotten a Stud like we absolutely need but I think the OBVIOUS trade off here is apparent.

lowesox
01-06-2004, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
Will you remind me what Gillick did at the trade deadline to improve seattle last year?

Lets not get too stuck on Pat Gillick. When I wrote his name, what I meant was that the Sox need a proven GM. Kenny is over his head. He's proven that he can't make good trades or manage a budget. We need somebody who has shown they can. Whether that guy is Gillick or somebody else is an entirely different argument altogether.

hold2dibber
01-06-2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by JasonC23
First of all, knowing my owner works on a tight, tight budget, I would not have given Konerko and Koch ridiculous contracts last offseason, thereby helping to tie my own hands behind my back the next offseason.

Jerry's a penny pincher, but Kenny knows that and still threw stupid money at those two. I refuse to feel sorry for him.

I agree entirely. I think overall KW has done a decent job in terms of personnel evaluation and roster construction. But he's not been good at managing payroll - which is an absolute necessity when JR is your boss. It's the Konerko contract and the Koch trade and subsequent signing that are really killing this team right now. As others have noted, the AL Central is there for the taking. If the Sox had just a little more payroll flexibility they'd be in a great position to add a few solid contributors to make them legit threats to win the division. But instead their hands are tied.

The only way the Sox win 90 games next year is if:

(1) Loaiza remains a solid 200 IP, sub-4.00 ERA pitcher;
(2) Garland becomes a solid 200 IP, sub-4.00 ERA pitcher;
(3) Rauch or Cotts or Schoenweiss or Wright becomes a 175 IP, sub 5.00 ERA pitcher;
(4) Koch bounces back;
(5) Crede improves offensively;
(6) Konerko bounces back;
(7) Harris gets on base at least 1/3 of the time;
(8) No one among Maggs, Lee, Thomas and Valentin regresses significantly off of last year's performance; and
(9) No significant injuries to any starting pitchers.

That's a lot of "if's" - way, way, way too many to consider the Sox legitimate threats to win the division, IMHO.

anewman35
01-06-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber

The only way the Sox win 90 games next year is if:


That's a lot of "if's" - way, way, way too many to consider the Sox legitimate threats to win the division, IMHO.

Do you really think it'll take 90 wins to take the division, though? It'll be nice, sure, but this division is not going to be good. I don't think it'll take 90.

Hangar18
01-06-2004, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by soxfan26
Since your in the know on Sox finances and are certain that they can spend over $58m, I can't argue that point with you. Don't forget I didn't introduce the word budget to you. This thread was about how KW has failed as a GM. Most posters on this board are well aware of how you feel about JR, KW, and the entire organization. We know about your plight to get your cousin to pick up the other half of your season tickets, about the budget cuts you will impose for the next season, etc. So while most of your posts are entertaining, this thread is about the GM.

wow, where did this come from? Though I dont suppose
to know the Teams Finances, I'll be most of us here can
say this team certainly can spend more $$$$. How could
they NOT? We are in the 2nd largest market supposedly
Your post blames KW. Sure, he may have done a better job....my response was to say HEY Maybe Kenny wouldnt be so "bad" if He wasnt Set up to Fail. While this thread is
about KW, I think he was Set up to Fail ..........to spell it
out

anewman35
01-06-2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
wow, where did this come from? Though I dont suppose
to know the Teams Finances, I'll be most of us here can
say this team certainly can spend more $$$$. How could
they NOT? We are in the 2nd largest market supposedly

I think the team can afford to have $1 tickets, all the time! How could they NOT? I also think the Sox should move spring training to the Moon. I'm sure they can find a way to do it, they can do anything!

Unless you are a Sox shareholder, you have no idea what they can afford to do. Maybe, unlike other teams, they want to earn more than they spend? What a strange concept!

lowesox
01-06-2004, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
I think the team can afford to have $1 tickets, all the time! How could they NOT? I also think the Sox should move spring training to the Moon. I'm sure they can find a way to do it, they can do anything!

Unless you are a Sox shareholder, you have no idea what they can afford to do. Maybe, unlike other teams, they want to earn more than they spend? What a strange concept!

Jerry is that you?

Hangar18
01-06-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Jerry is that you?

Heh heh.

hold2dibber
01-06-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Do you really think it'll take 90 wins to take the division, though? It'll be nice, sure, but this division is not going to be good. I don't think it'll take 90.

Close to it. I'd be surprised if it took anything less than 87 or 88 wins. And right now, I see the Sox as a team that, worst case, wins about 74 games next year, and best case wins about 85.

anewman35
01-06-2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
Jerry is that you?

It's amazingly funny to me that anyone who thinks that, just maybe, it's possible that the Sox have a sound buisness plan (and note, I didn't even say that the payroll was justified, I said maybe it was, we just didn't know) is called Jerry. Trust me, I wish I was Jerry, but, I am not.

Man, haven't any of you taken even basic buisness classes? I don't care how much money a person has, if you run a buisness that loses money every year, it won't last (granted, if you have billions and you lose a million every year, you won't notice, but I don't think JR has near that much). JR certianly could decide to take a chance and spend more, but he in no way should be obligated to do so.

Hangar18
01-06-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
It's amazingly funny to me that anyone who thinks that, just maybe, it's possible that the Sox have a sound buisness plan (and note, I didn't even say that the payroll was justified, I said maybe it was, we just didn't know) is called Jerry. Trust me, I wish I was Jerry, but, I am not.


Or did it occur to anyone the Sox were just using last years 2nd half monetary and somewhat onfield success as an excuse to
close up the coffers again? Remember how Season Tickets Surged on the news we got Colon? The question is.....
How Can this team NOT afford to spend more/wisely

lowesox
01-06-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Man, haven't any of you taken even basic buisness classes?

I think Reinsdorf is a liar about how much money he's not making. I'm no business wiz, but I do know that a smart business man like Jerry (and I'll give him that) knows when to hold'em and knows when to fold'em. If he were going poor, he'd sell the team.

BeerHandle
01-06-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
This is going to be tough to get my Cousin to Re-up his 1/2
of the Season Ticket Package

I agree Hangar. That is why the Sox try to get people to send in their deposits in before the MLB Winter Meetings. I still have not sent mine in and might not. I would rather go to 1/2 price Monday and Tuesday games instead of get my split season package. WE SUCK!!!! It is a weak division; how could we not take advantage? Are you listening JR? Sell the Sox and buy the Hawks....they are used to losing!

Tekijawa
01-06-2004, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Man, haven't any of you taken even basic buisness classes? I don't care how much money a person has, if you run a buisness that loses money every year, it won't last (granted, if you have billions and you lose a million every year, you won't notice, but I don't think JR has near that much). JR certianly could decide to take a chance and spend more, but he in no way should be obligated to do so.

And what business classes have you taken where a company puts a significant/and progressivley worse product out on the market and Jacks up the price and expects a consumer to pay higher and higher prices for it? Then turns around and tells it PATRONS that it would make a better product if it bought more? Then while its biggest competitor in the market space builds a bigger better product, it continues to tell it's ONLY source of "revenue" that they are the ones at fault for how bad the product is. ONLY Microsoft can do that!

MRKARNO
01-06-2004, 04:39 PM
As is, I dont see the sox winning any fewer than 82 games

Hangar18
01-06-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
And what business classes have you taken where a company puts a significant/and progressivley worse product out on the market and Jacks up the price and expects a consumer to pay higher and higher prices for it? Then turns around and tells it PATRONS that it would make a better product if it bought more? Then while its biggest competitor in the market space builds a bigger better product, it continues to tell it's ONLY source of "revenue" that they are the ones at fault for how bad the product is. ONLY Microsoft can do that!

Post of the week material right there .......

anewman35
01-06-2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by lowesox
I think Reinsdorf is a liar about how much money he's not making. I'm no business wiz, but I do know that a smart business man like Jerry (and I'll give him that) knows when to hold'em and knows when to fold'em. If he were going poor, he'd sell the team.

He's not getting poor, because he's not spending like crazy. Maybe he doesn't want to get poor, but just likes owning the team, so he tries to break even and do the best he can while not losing money? I know that people here don't like that, but from his perspective, isn't that perfectly reasonable?

Hangar18
01-06-2004, 04:53 PM
I can guarantee Jerry Reinsdorf got an "F" in Public Relations

anewman35
01-06-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I can guarantee Jerry Reinsdorf got an "F" in Public Relations

Well, he clearly did something right - he's a lot richer than any of the rest of us will ever be...

WhiteSoxWinner
01-06-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
He's not getting poor, because he's not spending like crazy. Maybe he doesn't want to get poor, but just likes owning the team, so he tries to break even and do the best he can while not losing money? I know that people here don't like that, but from his perspective, isn't that perfectly reasonable?

So, we should just keep lining JR's pocket while he gets to live the dream of owning an MLB team? What incentive is there then to be a fan of this team? If this is JR's attitude, then it would be completely justified that anyone who likes baseball should find the team that charges the least on tickets and go watch that team's game because they get to live the dream of being at a MLB game, regardless of the team's standings.

Sorry, but I think most fans want to live the dream of winning a championship than living the "nice just to be here" dream.

Hangar18
01-06-2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Well, he clearly did something right - he's a lot richer than any of the rest of us will ever be...

By stealing the Trust from one of the most Loyal and quite storied FanBases in Baseball ? ANd Polluting his own product
in the meantime? man, im glad Im not him

WhiteSoxWinner
01-06-2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa


And what business classes have you taken where a company puts a significant/and progressivley worse product out on the market and Jacks up the price and expects a consumer to pay higher and higher prices for it? Then turns around and tells it PATRONS that it would make a better product if it bought more? Then while its biggest competitor in the market space builds a bigger better product, it continues to tell it's ONLY source of "revenue" that they are the ones at fault for how bad the product is. ONLY Microsoft can do that!


Originally posted by Hangar18


Post of the week material right there .......

Agreed.

anewman35
01-06-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
So, we should just keep lining JR's pocket while he gets to live the dream of owning an MLB team? What incentive is there then to be a fan of this team? If this is JR's attitude, then it would be completely justified that anyone who likes baseball should find the team that charges the least on tickets and go watch that team's game because they get to live the dream of being at a MLB game, regardless of the team's standings.

Sorry, but I think most fans want to live the dream of winning a championship than living the "nice just to be here" dream.

Nobody's forcing you to be a Sox fan. If you really want a team that wins championships all the time, go be a Yankees fan and don't give JR any more of your money. It just seems silly to be a Sox fan if you hate JR so amazingly much - he's been the team's owner for a long time, and he probably will be for a while longer. If somebody does things you don't like for years, are you the fool for continuing to care?

Personally, I know that if I somehow owned a baseball team, especially if I had partners, there's no way I could justify losing tens of millions of dollars a year, so I'd probably have a fairly low budget, too. Knowing that, I can't logically blame JR for doing the same thing.

WhiteSoxWinner
01-06-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Nobody's forcing you to be a Sox fan. If you really want a team that wins championships all the time, go be a Yankees fan and don't give JR any more of your money. It just seems silly to be a Sox fan if you hate JR so amazingly much - he's been the team's owner for a long time, and he probably will be for a while longer. If somebody does things you don't like for years, are you the fool for continuing to care?

Personally, I know that if I somehow owned a baseball team, especially if I had partners, there's no way I could justify losing tens of millions of dollars a year, so I'd probably have a fairly low budget, too. Knowing that, I can't logically blame JR for doing the same thing.

Let me ask you something, why are you a fan of the team? Are you doing a case study in business management? Do you like the fact that the Sox are "fiscally responsible" and that is the first and foremost reason for liking a sports franchise?

Nobody is arguing the fact that professional sports are a business. However, it is a business that is built on the goodwill of the fans who pay to see that team. JR, over the course of the last 20+ years, has eroded that goodwill. You have a lot of people who used to be fans of this team that no longer are because of the erosion of that goodwill. How is that good business? By alienating the customers, JR has backed himself into this "budget". He used to have a fan base that would support a larger budget, but he eroded that fan base. The people who are still fans of the team are upset that JR killed this team.

Good owners know that owning a sports franchise, although first a business, also means that there are some responsibilities to the community in which the team operates. It may mean spending more in order to create or recreate a fanbase in lean years. This fanbase will not immediately erode when things go south for a while. JR has taken 20 years to get to the point he is at.

Lip Man 1
01-06-2004, 05:40 PM
Anewman says:

JR certianly could decide to take a chance and spend more, but he in no way should be obligated to do so.

With respect, when the city of Chicago and the state of Illinois is helping to subsidize him I think he is obligated.

Or don't they teach business ethics in college anymore?

Especially when you are the caretaker of a public historical trust, not Jerry's hardware store or Reinsdorf's beta video emporium.

Lip

CWSGuy406
01-06-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
It's amazingly funny to me that anyone who thinks that, just maybe, it's possible that the Sox have a sound buisness plan (and note, I didn't even say that the payroll was justified, I said maybe it was, we just didn't know) is called Jerry. Trust me, I wish I was Jerry, but, I am not.

Man, haven't any of you taken even basic buisness classes? I don't care how much money a person has, if you run a buisness that loses money every year, it won't last (granted, if you have billions and you lose a million every year, you won't notice, but I don't think JR has near that much). JR certianly could decide to take a chance and spend more, but he in no way should be obligated to do so.

You honestly cannot tell me, though, that the Sox actually "lost" money last year. Season ticket sales had to be pretty high going into the season, and with the midseason acquisitions made normal ticket sales even better. Even their midseason trades for Alomar, Everett, possibly even Sullivan (could be wrong about Sully) were payed for by the other team.

Kenny's hands are tied until he rids this team of a big contract. PK has to be moved, and a team has to be willing to take a big part of the contract as well.

WhiteSoxWinner
01-06-2004, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Anewman says:

JR certianly could decide to take a chance and spend more, but he in no way should be obligated to do so.

With respect, when the city of Chicago and the state of Illinois is helping to subsidize him I think he is obligated.

Or don't they teach business ethics in college anymore?

Especially when you are the caretaker of a public historical trust, not Jerry's hardware store or Reinsdorf's beta video emporium.

Lip

Good point, Lip. I think you captured more succinctly what I was trying to say in my last post. Thanks.

anewman35
01-06-2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

With respect, when the city of Chicago and the state of Illinois is helping to subsidize him I think he is obligated.

Or don't they teach business ethics in college anymore?

Especially when you are the caretaker of a public historical trust, not Jerry's hardware store or Reinsdorf's beta video emporium.


See, you feel like baseball is different than any other buisness, and that's your right, but I don't think it is. A buisness is a business, no matter what kind of business it is. Jerry's main obligation is to himself and his shareholders, and if he can help make some other people happy, great, but (as much as I hate it as a Sox fan) it shouldn't be his principal goal.

Don't bother to tell me I'm wrong, I know nobody agrees with me (and, like I said, I wish Jerry would just go crazy and not care about himself, but I don't see it happening)

WhiteSoxWinner
01-06-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
See, you feel like baseball is different than any other buisness, and that's your right, but I don't think it is. A buisness is a business, no matter what kind of business it is. Jerry's main obligation is to himself and his shareholders, and if he can help make some other people happy, great, but (as much as I hate it as a Sox fan) it shouldn't be his principal goal.

Obviously, you missed the point of Lip's post. Business ethics is the theory that a business has moral obligations to be a "good citizen" in the community. The community, although not a shareholder, is a stakeholder in the business. A business has to mindful of its stakeholders. If it is not mindful of the stakeholders, then the business incurs risk.

In the case of the White Sox, the state and local governments undertook the financing to build that stadium for the Sox to play in. As such, the Sox have a moral obligation to the stakeholders to put a good team on the field, even if it means the shareholders get a little less.

MisterB
01-06-2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
Business ethics is the theory that a business has moral obligations to be a "good citizen" in the community.

That's a nice theory. Too bad it's almost never actually practiced.

BTW, can anyone define a 'public trust', and if there are any privately held businesses that would be an example of one?

chisoxt
01-06-2004, 07:27 PM
The question remains then, how could you or Pat Gillick have done better, given the salary constraints? I'm sure you may have posted your ideas in other threads, but if your going to knock the guy then please enlighten us on how to properly field a winner on a $58m budget?

The problem with KW goes beyond the upcoming baseball year when he painted himself into a financial corner but over the last three-plus years and how he has carelessly handled the player personnel from his farm system. Using your prospects to get aging veterans on the downside of their career has been a baseball management model that has been proven time and time again to be a failure. If you atre a teram with financial constarints like the Sox, you do not do this.

SluggersAway
01-06-2004, 07:33 PM
KW will make a MOVE.

BE PATIENT.

Geez, I don't see this much fuss by the girls at Wellesley College...

Go easy like the sweet, cute, lil thangs near Fenway Park.

Your patience will be rewarded.

TaylorStSox
01-06-2004, 08:15 PM
God, this forum is redundant. Lip Man and Hangar should have their own forum in this domain where they can complain about "JR" together all day.

It's not like this offseason's free agent roster was stellar. They attempted to make a few good moves that didn't work out.

jeremyb1
01-06-2004, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I agree entirely. I think overall KW has done a decent job in terms of personnel evaluation and roster construction. But he's not been good at managing payroll - which is an absolute necessity when JR is your boss. It's the Konerko contract and the Koch trade and subsequent signing that are really killing this team right now. As others have noted, the AL Central is there for the taking. If the Sox had just a little more payroll flexibility they'd be in a great position to add a few solid contributors to make them legit threats to win the division. But instead their hands are tied.

The only way the Sox win 90 games next year is if:

(1) Loaiza remains a solid 200 IP, sub-4.00 ERA pitcher;
(2) Garland becomes a solid 200 IP, sub-4.00 ERA pitcher;
(3) Rauch or Cotts or Schoenweiss or Wright becomes a 175 IP, sub 5.00 ERA pitcher;
(4) Koch bounces back;
(5) Crede improves offensively;
(6) Konerko bounces back;
(7) Harris gets on base at least 1/3 of the time;
(8) No one among Maggs, Lee, Thomas and Valentin regresses significantly off of last year's performance; and
(9) No significant injuries to any starting pitchers.

That's a lot of "if's" - way, way, way too many to consider the Sox legitimate threats to win the division, IMHO.

Man, I don't know. That seems like in that scenario everything possible goes right. I think that'd net us more than 90 wins. We'd be looking at a team with a rotation nearly as good as last season's a better offense, and a bullpen at least as good as last season.

The reasoning that last season's club won 86 games so we need to exceed that level of talent two win 90 this season is problematic. First of all, last seasons club like the season before it was unlucky as our run differential and pathagorean record indicate. A team that scored as often and prevented as many runs as we did should've won 90 games last season.

Furthermore, numerous players on last season's club underacheived. Buehrle had a disasterous first half, Koch could not have been much more ineffective, Konerko was one of the worst position players in the majors relative to his position, and Crede was one of the five worst hitters in baseball in the first half. Additionally, only Carlos could be said to have exceeded expecations among position players. Theoretically, we could just as easily have career years from four players and only one dissapointing season next season instead of the opposite which transpired last season.

thepaulbowski
01-06-2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

I'm sure this is going to do wonders for off season ticket sales! LOL

Yes, it will. I just requested my initial deposit back from the White Sox. It ticks me off that I did this, but since they don't feel the need to improve their product, I don't feel the need to spend more to see less. Not planning on buying any tix this year. I usually attend 40 + games. Not anymore. Screw em.

thepaulbowski
01-06-2004, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Man, haven't any of you taken even basic buisness classes? I don't care how much money a person has, if you run a buisness that loses money every year, it won't last (granted, if you have billions and you lose a million every year, you won't notice, but I don't think JR has near that much). JR certianly could decide to take a chance and spend more, but he in no way should be obligated to do so.

Yes, I have taken many business classes and have a business degree. I was also taught, you have to spend money to make money.

anewman35
01-06-2004, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
Yes, I have taken many business classes and have a business degree. I was also taught, you have to spend money to make money.

They seem to be spending about $58 million. That seems like a lot of money to me. I wasn't aware the saying was "you have to spend $59 million or more to make money".

mdep524
01-06-2004, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
See, you feel like baseball is different than any other business, and that's your right, but I don't think it is. A business is a business, no matter what kind of business it is. Jerry's main obligation is to himself and his shareholders, and if he can help make some other people happy, great, but (as much as I hate it as a Sox fan) it shouldn't be his principal goal.


Anewman35, I am not going to criticize you for defending JR and his methods. In fact, I thank you for at least playing devil's advocate and presenting the other and less popular side of the argument.

You do make some very valid points, however overall your argument is, I believe, wrong, so I am going to try to refute you here. Let me start by saying that I am an economics major, so I have been thinking about this stuff for a while.

You are right when you say that JR's main obligation as a business man is to himself and his stock holders. Profits, etc. But the sport of professional baseball is different than a normal good like, say, cereal or clothing, in that consumers, i.e. the fans, do not consume the product because they need it, they buy it because they WANT it and like it. Baseball is a leisure good- fans buy it because they enjoy watching or following it as a divergence from their normal working life. They do not have to buy it. If JR sets a low budget- compared to similar situations in other baseball cities, shows no interest in providing a good product or a commitment to winning and creates simply awful PR, fans will show him the same disregard he is showing them. So if JR wants to make a profit to show his shareholders, he has to create demand and desire in potential consumers to buy his product.

One characteristic professional baseball does have that normal markets do not is blind brand loyalty. For the most part, we are Sox fans not because we "chose" to be but because we are from Chicago, and we will continue to be Sox fans no matter what happens. With a normal good like toothpaste, for example, if you find a better, cheaper brand of toothpaste than the one you are currently using, you will probably just switch over to the other brand. JR is depending on this loyalty to maintain his level of consumers. But what JR seemingly does not get at all is that White Sox fans, unlike oblivious Cubs fans, will not just throw money at their team because of this loyalty. If they do not deem the product worthy of their money, Sox fans will remain fans of the team but not spend a dollar on them.

As an astute business man, JR should know his target consumers. White Sox fans are a demanding, critical, intelligent, responsive breed. The key is the last part: responsive. This is what economists call "elastic demand," meaning that if the price of a good is lowered, demand will increase by a lot and alternatively if the price of a good is increased, demand will decrease by a lot (i.e. more than the proportional amount that would be expected). Sox fans, as consumers, have a very elastic demand with respect to the quality of the product on the field. So if JR expanded the budget to, say, 70 million and KW used the flexibility to make moves that really improved the team on the field into an exciting World Series-caliber competitor, Sox fans would respond by filling up the park, generally spending more money on the team and a solid, increasing, dynamic fan base would arise (as opposed to the dwindling fan base and general apathy and pessimism the city has toward the team now.) As a result, JR's revenues would increase significantly, especially down the line. The increase in budget would be offset and everybody-JR, the shareholders, and the fans- are happy.

The Cubs could (and have) put 9 random scrubs out on the field and still fill the park and bring in big time revenue, because their demand isn't based on the product on the field, so for them it doesn't make as much sense to increase payroll because their demand is inelastic.

If JR wants to practice hard-line economics he should sell the Sox and buy a firm in an oligopoly market for an inelastic normal good, like the transportation industry, where people NEED transportation, or the tobacco industry, where smokers NEED cigarettes, or the Cubs, where the fans don't care about the quality of the product and come out anyway.

jeremyb1
01-07-2004, 07:33 AM
I've never been a season ticketholder but had I been, I wouldn't cancel my tickets this season. We're still contenders in the central and the budget hasn't decreases so since the status quo remains the same I'd have an awful hard time justifying cutting off my tickets. JR didn't slash payroll.

JasonC23
01-07-2004, 08:41 AM
You know, something just hit me, and maybe I'm stupid for not figuring this out earlier.

1. JR claims he's not doing well, he isn't making that much money, he's struggling to get along.
2. We all know that if he sold the Sox, he would make an incredible profit compared to what he paid for the team so many years ago.
3. So, if business sucks, and it's impossible for him to compete, and woe is him...why doesn't he sell and make all the money he'd ever need? (This same question could be posed to all baseball owners that claim to be losing money.)

This is why people don't believe baseball owners when they say they're losing money hand over fist. If they're such smart businessmen, why would they continue to be involved in such a terrible business in which they have no hope of making money? If it's so bad, why not sell and rake in the profit?

Could it be because business is nowhere near as bad as they say, that they're not losing money hand over fist?? Nah, that couldn't be it... :cool:

anewman35
01-07-2004, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by JasonC23

Could it be because business is nowhere near as bad as they say, that they're not losing money hand over fist?? Nah, that couldn't be it... :cool:

Could it be that it's just fun and neat to be a baseball owner, and he wants to stay in it even if he's not making any money? I'm sure he has plenty of money that he's not depending on the team to earn a living (but at the same time, not enough to go wasting it all over).

Hangar18
01-07-2004, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
God, this forum is redundant. Lip Man and Hangar should have their own forum in this domain where they can complain about "JR" together all day.

It's not like this offseason's free agent roster was stellar. They attempted to make a few good moves that didn't work out.

well, they did knock me out with their obvious moves
to win this division ..........

TaylorStSox
01-07-2004, 08:57 AM
What would you have done? Overpay for some mediocre players? IMO this team should be rebuilding anyway. It's not like there were a core of pitchers that wow'd anyone. There were/are some good ones, but not number 1 material. The best position players were OF's. We are loaded with OF's, like it or not. Oh, I forgot, Lee, Maggs, Rowand, Borchard and Reed all suck because JR is the owner. ...

Hangar18
01-07-2004, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
What would you have done? Overpay for some mediocre players? IMO this team should be rebuilding anyway. It's not like there were a core of pitchers that wow'd anyone. There were/are some good ones, but not number 1 material. The best position players were OF's. We are loaded with OF's, like it or not. Oh, I forgot, Lee, Maggs, Rowand, Borchard and Reed all suck because JR is the owner. ...

Heres what I wouldve done. These teams have a list of whos going to be available, and I wouldnt have HANDCUFFED myself with an Imaginary Budget, in which Id have to let most of my players go, and not be able to sign anyone else. Thats what I WOULDNT have done.

anewman35
01-07-2004, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Heres what I wouldve done. These teams have a list of whos going to be available, and I wouldnt have HANDCUFFED myself with an Imaginary Budget, in which Id have to let most of my players go, and not be able to sign anyone else. Thats what I WOULDNT have done.

What makes you think the budget is imaginary? Do you think baseball teams have some magical ability to spend spend spend, regardless of how much they have?

Let me ask you this - if I told you to buy a million dollar house, right now, would you be able to do it if you only had $10,000?

TaylorStSox
01-07-2004, 09:09 AM
That doesn't really answer the question. Seriously, what would you have done? Offer Colon more money without incentives? Sign Alomar? Sign Walker's no defense playing ass? Maybe go after some Juan Gone the hasbeen? Out bid the Yankee's for Gordan? I would rather be cheap than be expensive and end up with a Mets/Dodgers type of season. Give Borchard, Rowand, Harris, and Uribe a chance. It's better than signing marginal players for more than they're worth for the sake of "making a move."

Hangar18
01-07-2004, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
What makes you think the budget is imaginary? Do you think baseball teams have some magical ability to spend spend spend, regardless of how much they have?

Let me ask you this - if I told you to buy a million dollar house, right now, would you be able to do it if you only had $10,000?

Let me turn this around then ..........What If I heard your request, and knowing I had 2 Million in the bank, decided to
pretend I only had 10,000 ?? Remember this. Im Jerry Reinsdorf, and Im not about to Tell You the Truth, or Tip My Hand.
Why would I do that? Im a "businessman" remember?

Hangar18
01-07-2004, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by TaylorStSox
That doesn't really answer the question. Seriously, what would you have done? Offer Colon more money without incentives? Sign Alomar? Sign Walker's no defense playing ass? Maybe go after some Juan Gone the hasbeen? Out bid the Yankee's for Gordan? I would rather be cheap than be expensive and end up with a Mets/Dodgers type of season. Give Borchard, Rowand, Harris, and Uribe a chance. It's better than signing marginal players for more than they're worth for the sake of "making a move."

I wouldve Forecast my teams payroll a year in advance, and WOULDNT have backloaded contracts I had No Intentioin on ever paying (which is why 2005 will be Buehrles last year as a SOX)
That would allow me to REALISTICALLY be able to keep my own players (instead of stocking other world series bound teams with my players) and be able to take on a contract or two.
Yeah, easier said than done right? but its simple when you know thats what your supposed to do

Hangar18
01-07-2004, 09:38 AM
That being said.....this teams payroll, keeping the "core" together, shoudlve been in the 80-85 million range..........
Moving a contract like Konerko/Kochs would theoretically
give my GM (or me if Im the GM) more $$$ to work with
in case we have to "overpay" to keep someone here....
like colon. I dont think the most creative gm in the
world couldnt have made anything work with a 58 Mill Budget
(on this team anyway, regarding certain payrolls, and the holes we had) Setting the 04 payroll at 58 Million Foolishly & Needlessly Handcuffed a GM who may not be that good at making deals/signing players, but hes good enough and possibly getting better. nevertheless, why Make Things Harder for your Workers WHEN YOU DONT HAVE TO ??? I think KW may have been able to field a better team ..........

CubKilla
01-07-2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
I think KW may have been able to field a better team ..........

With a modest payroll increase of $10 million, I know KW could have fielded a better team than what we are looking at right now..... and I'm not a KW fan by any means.

anewman35
01-07-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Let me turn this around then ..........What If I heard your request, and knowing I had 2 Million in the bank, decided to
pretend I only had 10,000 ?? Remember this. Im Jerry Reinsdorf, and Im not about to Tell You the Truth, or Tip My Hand.
Why would I do that? Im a "businessman" remember?

Why do you assume he's lying? I'm not saying he's not, but it's silly to be so positive that he is. If he had the money to spend, why wouldn't he spend it on the team? I'm sure you don't believe this, either, but he does want to win.

CubKilla
01-07-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
I'm sure you don't believe this, either, but he does want to win.

His words say that. His actions (or lack of) totally 180 his words.

anewman35
01-07-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Hangar18
nevertheless, why Make Things Harder for your Workers WHEN YOU DONT HAVE TO ???

Um. Is this a joke? The answer to your question is "making things easier would cost JR an extra $25 million dollars." Seems pretty basic to me. It's like going to up to Wal-Mart and asking "why not pay your employees $20 an hour? It would make them happier and help them out. You should do it." What kind of response do you think you'd get.

Anyway, let's say the budget was $85 million. Would you all be happy with that, or would we have people complaining that we were still being outspent by the Yankees and Red Sox?

anewman35
01-07-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
His words say that. His actions (or lack of) totally 180 his words.

If that was true, we'd be the Tigers or the Pirates or the Brewers or the Devil Rays, a team that never has any chance. Say what you will, this team usually finishes in second or third place, which means they at least had a shot at first - our situtation could be a lot worse.

CubKilla
01-07-2004, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Say what you will, this team usually finishes in second or third place, which means they at least had a shot at first - our situtation could be a lot worse.

If we were in any division other than the AL Central, 3rd or 4th would be where we'd finish every year.

Hangar18
01-07-2004, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
I'm sure you don't believe this, either, but he does want to win.

Ive heard him say he wants to "win" in the media and such, but I personally dont know the guy, and ive only met him Once, so I dont know whats truth or not. I will say this......Looking at the 22yrs of Evidence ..... and the fact since the Reinsdorf Regime
has been in power, We've had maybe 5 windows of Opportunity to get to the Promised Land....(not counting the 1st time they took over) and We've only ONCE seized the moment (offseason after 1993) and quickly broke up that team. I dont believe he wants to win. The Evidence is there. If this team were a Crime Scene, JR's Fingerprints and Size 12 Bruno Magli's are all over the place .............

KingXerxes
01-07-2004, 11:17 AM
The worrysome thing about this off-season is that we're almost all counting on KW being able to pick three or four guys off of the scrap heap who are going to surprise us like Loaiza did last year. It is rare when this happens once - let alone multiple times. We got off to a terrible start when they picked up Valentin's option, and have stumbled since.

Lee, Buehrle, Loaiza and Marte are the only guys with any real trade value on this team - I once thought it obvious that we had enough offense, and thought Lee would be shipped out for pitching, but that hasn't happened (although I guess it still may). The problem is that holes keep springing up on this team to the point where I'm not sure what KW is even trying to do anymore.

Lip Man 1
01-07-2004, 11:31 AM
Anewman....

If baseball were like any other business (to be treated accordingly) then why did the Supreme Court give them a license to be in fact a monopoly? and not subject to the normal laws of business.

Just something to consider.

Lip

WhiteSoxWinner
01-07-2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by MisterB
That's a nice theory. Too bad it's almost never actually practiced.

A nice theory? I hate to tell you but it is a reality. By just doing a quick internet search using Yahoo and the keywords Corporate Responsibility, here are a couple of examples:

Unocal - Reports from 1994 through 2001 discussing Unocal's Corporate Responsibility addressed to Stakeholders
Unocal (http://www.unocal.com/responsibility/)

British Airways - Social and Environmental Reports from 1999 to 2003
British Airways (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/crsereport/public/en_gb)

Keep looking through the results and you will find examples from Unilever, UBS, Nokia, Nestle, and others. All these businesses acknowledge Business Ethics as Corporate Responsibility. Just another term. Businesses across all sectors do recognize that they have a duty to stakeholders as well as shareholders.

Note to All: Sorry this is a little off topic, but it caught my interest.

jabrch
01-07-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
The worrysome thing about this off-season is that we're almost all counting on KW being able to pick three or four guys off of the scrap heap who are going to surprise us like Loaiza did last year. It is rare when this happens once - let alone multiple times. We got off to a terrible start when they picked up Valentin's option, and have stumbled since.

Lee, Buehrle, Loaiza and Marte are the only guys with any real trade value on this team - I once thought it obvious that we had enough offense, and thought Lee would be shipped out for pitching, but that hasn't happened (although I guess it still may). The problem is that holes keep springing up on this team to the point where I'm not sure what KW is even trying to do anymore.

The worst thing about this offseason is that I feel like it has completely ruined my summer - and we haven't even gotten to spring yet.

jabrch
01-07-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Why do you assume he's lying? I'm not saying he's not, but it's silly to be so positive that he is. If he had the money to spend, why wouldn't he spend it on the team? I'm sure you don't believe this, either, but he does want to win.

He must have told you that himself, huh Mrs. Reinsdorf?

anewman35
01-07-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by WhiteSoxWinner
A nice theory? I hate to tell you but it is a reality.

Keep looking through the results and you will find examples from Unilever, UBS, Nokia, Nestle, and others. All these businesses acknowledge Business Ethics as Corporate Responsibility. Just another term. Businesses across all sectors do recognize that they have a duty to stakeholders as well as shareholders.

Note to All: Sorry this is a little off topic, but it caught my interest.

So how come you believe this, but nobody believes JR? You think corporations never lie or screw people over? Have you heard of Enron?

anewman35
01-07-2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
The worst thing about this offseason is that I feel like it has completely ruined my summer - and we haven't even gotten to spring yet.

Wait, does that mean you won't spend all summer here complaining?

There's a reason they play the games. Did anybody, anywhere, pick the Marlins to win the series last year? And yet they did. There's a reason they don't name the world series champ in January.

anewman35
01-07-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
He must have told you that himself, huh Mrs. Reinsdorf?

Wow, that's just the funniest thing I've ever heard! You really got me good!

jabrch
01-07-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Wow, that's just the funniest thing I've ever heard! You really got me good!

You must believe WWF Wrestling is real also. Do Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny come by your house?

WhiteSoxWinner
01-07-2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
So how come you believe this, but nobody believes JR? You think corporations never lie or screw people over? Have you heard of Enron?

Why? Because a lot of these reports and the statements made in them are verified by independent assurance organisations. Check page 17 of the BA report for the report from the independent assurance organization. Page 27 of the 2002 Social Review report by Unilever and page 7 of the Nestle report also show independent assurance organization have reviewed the reports and signed off on its accuracy. More and more reports are being independently verified.

We already know JR has done things to undermine the fan's trust in this franchise such as leading the charge in the baseball strike and giving up on a season in the White Flag trade. I ask you, what has JR done to earn the public's trust?

anewman35
01-07-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
You must believe WWF Wrestling is real also. Do Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny come by your house?

Thanks for the insults. It really helps me feel a lot more sure that I'm right and you are wrong.

RKMeibalane
01-07-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
He must have told you that himself, huh Mrs. Reinsdorf?

LMAO.

Hangar18
01-07-2004, 03:51 PM
anewman35..........Your definitely playing a good Devils Advocate,
good job

gosox41
01-07-2004, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Anewman....

If baseball were like any other business (to be treated accordingly) then why did the Supreme Court give them a license to be in fact a monopoly? and not subject to the normal laws of business.

Just something to consider.

Lip

Perhaps the better question is why that hasn't been overtunred. The right for baseball to be a monopoly happened years ago, before JR's time. Why is it still in existence?

Bob

Lip Man 1
01-08-2004, 11:26 AM
If memory serves it was granted this license in 1920 by then Supreme Court Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes shortly after the Federal League went under (due in part to then federal court Judge Kenesaw Landis refusing to rule on the 'reserve clause' for over a year and a half. So say deliberately because he wanted that League to go under so he wouldn't have to make a potentially sport changing ruling)

Lip