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A. Cavatica
01-04-2004, 09:59 PM
If Borchard fizzles, the 2000 draft was a complete bust.

(1) Borchard was a can't-miss, but now I wish we'd spent the $5m elsewhere. Will he even be as good as Gorman Thomas?
(2) Hummel should probably have been our 2B next year. I sure wish we hadn't traded him.
(10) Heath Phillips might eventually make the bigs as a lefty reliever.
None of the other picks is projectable. I had hopes for (3) Morse, (6) Ivy and (8) Amador, but none of them can hit.

2001 was a little better.
(1) Honel and (3) Wing had strong seasons in A ball. (15) Webster is a player, but we lost him to Texas in the Everett deal. Some of the other pitchers -- (2) Allen, (8) Fryson, (9) Bullard, (10) Bittner -- have shown flashes but have not sustained it.

2002 looks like a very good draft.
(1) Ring lived up to his billing, and he brought us Robbie Alomar for the stretch run.
(2) Reed was the steal of the draft.
(3) Rupe went to Texas for Everett.
(7) Schnurstein, (16) Haigwood, (17) McCarthy, and (31) Varela were good picks.

2003 looks good so far.
(1) Anderson looked great but got hurt early.
(2) Sweeney looked great.
(4) Valido might be the homegrown shortstop we haven't seen in ages.
(14) Nanita and (25) Gray were good picks.

A. Cavatica
01-04-2004, 11:07 PM
I went back a couple more years.

The returns are in on 1998 -- a great draft. (1) Kip Wells, (1) Rowand, (3) Fogg, (38) Buehrle are established major leaguers. (2) Majewski, (8) Wylie, (26) Almonte, (27) Battersby made it at least to AAA. Some other promising pitchers were set back by injuries.

1999 looked like it was going to be a great draft, but it produced no stars (despite many good players). (2) Wright is the only established major leaguer, with (1) Ginter, (3) Rauch, (5) Stewart, and (6) Sanders on the fringes. (2) Bobby Hill didn't sign, of course. (1) Stumm hurt his arm; he's now a reliever at AA, and his window of opportunity has almost closed. (1) West just quit baseball and (1) Purvis probably should. Much of the Sox' vaunted minor league pitching depth came from this draft, including (8) Ulacia, (9) Malone, (10) Guerrier, (22) McWhirter, (26) Valentine, and (36) Bajenaru.

So, essentially, we haven't drafted a significant contributor since 1998, unless you consider Wright a significant contributor. We did manage to turn some of our picks into midseason rentals. Jeremy Reed has to make up for a lot.

DrCrawdad
01-05-2004, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
I went back a couple more years.

The returns are in on 1998 -- a great draft. (1) Kip Wells, (1) Rowand, (3) Fogg, (38) Buehrle are established major leaguers. (2) Majewski, (8) Wylie, (26) Almonte, (27) Battersby made it at least to AAA. Some other promising pitchers were set back by injuries.

1999 looked like it was going to be a great draft, but it produced no stars (despite many good players). (2) Wright is the only established major leaguer, with (1) Ginter, (3) Rauch, (5) Stewart, and (6) Sanders on the fringes. (2) Bobby Hill didn't sign, of course. (1) Stumm hurt his arm; he's now a reliever at AA, and his window of opportunity has almost closed. (1) West just quit baseball and (1) Purvis probably should. Much of the Sox' vaunted minor league pitching depth came from this draft, including (8) Ulacia, (9) Malone, (10) Guerrier, (22) McWhirter, (26) Valentine, and (36) Bajenaru.

So, essentially, we haven't drafted a significant contributor since 1998, unless you consider Wright a significant contributor. We did manage to turn some of our picks into midseason rentals. Jeremy Reed has to make up for a lot.

Interesting analysis. What's the problem? Who's to blame? Are the problems corrected or being corrected?

gosox41
01-05-2004, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
I went back a couple more years.

The returns are in on 1998 -- a great draft. (1) Kip Wells, (1) Rowand, (3) Fogg, (38) Buehrle are established major leaguers. (2) Majewski, (8) Wylie, (26) Almonte, (27) Battersby made it at least to AAA. Some other promising pitchers were set back by injuries.

1999 looked like it was going to be a great draft, but it produced no stars (despite many good players). (2) Wright is the only established major leaguer, with (1) Ginter, (3) Rauch, (5) Stewart, and (6) Sanders on the fringes. (2) Bobby Hill didn't sign, of course. (1) Stumm hurt his arm; he's now a reliever at AA, and his window of opportunity has almost closed. (1) West just quit baseball and (1) Purvis probably should. Much of the Sox' vaunted minor league pitching depth came from this draft, including (8) Ulacia, (9) Malone, (10) Guerrier, (22) McWhirter, (26) Valentine, and (36) Bajenaru.

So, essentially, we haven't drafted a significant contributor since 1998, unless you consider Wright a significant contributor. We did manage to turn some of our picks into midseason rentals. Jeremy Reed has to make up for a lot.

Just out of curiousity how do you rate Kenny Williams vs. Ron Schueler when it comes to draftying and developing players. Many think Schu is a dog and that Williams is much better, but based on what has been said here Williams has overseen 4 drafts (he did the 2000, not Schu) without much to show for it.

Schu was far from good, but IMHO, I don't see Williams being great...yet.

Bob

Randar68
01-05-2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by gosox41
Just out of curiousity how do you rate Kenny Williams vs. Ron Schueler when it comes to draftying and developing players. Many think Schu is a dog and that Williams is much better, but based on what has been said here Williams has overseen 4 drafts (he did the 2000, not Schu) without much to show for it.

Schu was far from good, but IMHO, I don't see Williams being great...yet.

Bob

Schueler would over-rule his scouts and basically just do whatever he wanted. Sometimes worked in the first couple rounds, but after that, little was generally accomplished. He also hamstrung picks based on a couple dollars here or there that resulted in picks like Jason Dallearo.

Kenny is 1000% better in terms of player scouting and allowing his scouting director and scouts to run the draft based on the organizational needs and outlines he sets forth before draft planning.

The last 3 drafts have been excellent, IMO. This last draft had some bona-fide guys drafted in the teens who didn't sign for various reasons, but they were legitamite big-time prospects.

You left out some key players from each of several drafts:

2001:
5th rounder Andy Gonzalez
20th rounder Brian Miller

2002:
4th round: Ryan Rodgriguez. Hurt this past year but a load of potential
5th Round: LaMura has decent potential as a possible releiver
8th round: Sean Tracey
15th round: Adam Larson
20th round: Boone Logan, rhp
24th round: Thomas Brice

2003:
Veal, Hodges and Moviel have as much potential as anyone in this draft outside of Sweeney and Anderson. Very solid first 20 picks, as good as any in the draft, IMO. Not signing Veal, Hodges and Moviel may be a mistake, but the $$$ demands were just too far outside of the slot restrictions...

Daver
01-05-2004, 07:32 PM
I would also include Micheal Morse in this,though he is not noticed by many he has started to develop a little pop in his bat.

He's still an awful SS,but at 6'6" he could easily be converted to a firstbaseman.

Hey Randar,is Brice still getting pitches one hopped to him in BP?

:)

A. Cavatica
01-05-2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Interesting analysis. What's the problem? Who's to blame? Are the problems corrected or being corrected?

I don't follow the front office personnel well enough to know this, but obviously there has been turnover, with KW replacing Schu and Bob Fontaine coming in (and then departing?). I never thought much of Schu as a GM. Until/unless someone educates me, I will continue to believe that KW is an improvement, at least with regard to the draft.

It will take a few "hits" with high picks before the organization is willing to hang onto someone like Magglio in his walk year...

A. Cavatica
01-05-2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Randar68

2001:
5th rounder Andy Gonzalez
20th rounder Brian Miller

2002:
4th round: Ryan Rodgriguez. Hurt this past year but a load of potential
5th Round: LaMura has decent potential as a possible releiver
8th round: Sean Tracey
15th round: Adam Larson
20th round: Boone Logan, rhp
24th round: Thomas Brice

2003:
Veal, Hodges and Moviel have as much potential as anyone in this draft outside of Sweeney and Anderson.

Yup, you're right about Gonzalez & Miller. Gonzalez had an off year, but it will be fun watching him race Valido to Chicago.

I wasn't too impressed with LaMura's debut -- he seems to throw hard but with poor control. Tracey, Larson, & Logan were decent picks but they don't yet look like they'll make it to the show. As for Brice, I saw where Baseball America had him in our top 30 last year; I guess he's an Australian cricket player and he hits the low ball really well. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to hit anything for power. Maybe he has tools, but off his numbers he doesn't look like much of a prospect to me.

Daver
01-05-2004, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
As for Brice, I saw where Baseball America had him in our top 30 last year; I guess he's an Australian cricket player and he hits the low ball really well. Unfortunately he doesn't seem to hit anything for power. Maybe he has tools, but off his numbers he doesn't look like much of a prospect to me.

Basing things simply on numbers tends to burn you.Brice is an all around athlete that can play every outfield position well,with a plus arm,it is beleived his hitting will come around,but he is more a spray hitter than a power hitter,similar to Schnurstein,though Micah has more gap power.

Jjav829
01-05-2004, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Basing things simply on numbers tends to burn you.

Unless you are Billy Beane/Paul DePodesta...

Daver
01-05-2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
Unless you are Billy Beane/Paul DePodesta...

Yeah,they were on the money with wanting Mark Johnson based on the numbers......

Jjav829
01-05-2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Yeah,they were on the money with wanting Mark Johnson based on the numbers......

LOL. Sshh. Don't tell them that. Billy Beane is always right. Just ask him. :smile:

DrCrawdad
01-05-2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Yeah,they were on the money with wanting Mark Johnson based on the numbers......

And don't forget Beane also boasted about getting Closer Of The Future - Joe Valentine in that deal too! Valentine got his CuppaJoe with the Reds and was promptly sent back to AAA where Valentine didn't even get a September call-up from the lowly Reds!

RichFitztightly
01-05-2004, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Randar68
[B]Schueler would over-rule his scouts and basically just do whatever he wanted. Sometimes worked in the first couple rounds, but after that, little was generally accomplished. He also hamstrung picks based on a couple dollars here or there that resulted in picks like Jason Dallearo.

Didn't Schueler draft his daughter one year? Granted it was in a really late round, but still. :?:

Daver
01-05-2004, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by RichFitztightly
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Randar68
[B]Schueler would over-rule his scouts and basically just do whatever he wanted. Sometimes worked in the first couple rounds, but after that, little was generally accomplished. He also hamstrung picks based on a couple dollars here or there that resulted in picks like Jason Dallearo.

Didn't Schueler draft his daughter one year? Granted it was in a really late round, but still. :?:

Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

Yes Schueler drafted his daughter with a 29th round pick.

For what it is worth Mark Buerhle was a 32nd round pick.

A. Cavatica
01-05-2004, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Yes Schueler drafted his daughter with a 29th round pick.

This is about what I would've been willing to give up for Carl Everett.

Daver
01-05-2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
This is about what I would've been willing to give up for Carl Everett.

Everett was selected to the All Star game last year,last time I checked Schueler's daughter has yet to pitch an inning for the White Sox.

DrCrawdad
01-05-2004, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
This is about what I would've been willing to give up for Carl Everett.

I like Carl's offense. Carl had no business playing CF though.

MarkEdward
01-05-2004, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Yeah,they were on the money with wanting Mark Johnson based on the numbers......

I have to agree. The A's totally lost out on that Koch deal... :smile:

mike squires
01-06-2004, 12:25 AM
Williams has shown he is nor afraid to trade away young talent for players that will make an impact NOW, where as Schuler had a tendency to hope that his minor league talent would eventually progress. Neither philosophy has worked, really. :(:

gosox41
01-06-2004, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
I don't follow the front office personnel well enough to know this, but obviously there has been turnover, with KW replacing Schu and Bob Fontaine coming in (and then departing?). I never thought much of Schu as a GM. Until/unless someone educates me, I will continue to believe that KW is an improvement, at least with regard to the draft.

It will take a few "hits" with high picks before the organization is willing to hang onto someone like Magglio in his walk year...

I was just wondering because I'm waiting for some of KW's draft picks to make an impact. You mentioned a lot of the Sox pitching depth came in the '98-'99 drafts. KW gets credit for Borchard who is considered a flop. I don't think Schu was that great, but isn't it time for players from KW's first or secodn draft to be ready to make an impact soon? Reed seems like the closest and he moved fast up the minors, but who else is close to being a reliable everyday starter of starting pitcher?

Bob

Frater Perdurabo
01-06-2004, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Everett was selected to the All Star game last year...

Everett had a monster month of May (while the rest of the Rangers flat-out sucked for that month) that got him voted in by his peers. I would not put a lot of stock in Everett's All-Star appearance.

Carl is a fierce competitor who plays hard, but he lets his pride get in the way of doing what is best for the team. He is not a good CF. He ought to have played DH while Frank played 1B in 2003. Borchard should have continued to play CF last year while batting ninth. (I would rather have had Borchard's speed, defense and strikeouts than Konerko's sloth and double-plays.) Shame on Kenny and Jerry for not recognizing this...

hold2dibber
01-06-2004, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
Everett had a monster month of May (while the rest of the Rangers flat-out sucked for that month) that got him voted in by his peers. I would not put a lot of stock in Everett's All-Star appearance.

Carl is a fierce competitor who plays hard, but he lets his pride get in the way of doing what is best for the team. He is not a good CF. He ought to have played DH while Frank played 1B in 2003. Borchard should have continued to play CF last year while batting ninth. (I would rather have had Borchard's speed, defense and strikeouts than Konerko's sloth and double-plays.) Shame on Kenny and Jerry for not recognizing this...

I think it would have been a disservice to Borchard to play him all year at the MLB level when he clearly wasn't ready to be there - not even close. He would have failed horribly, been the subject of public scorn and self-doubt, all of which would have impeded his progress.

Dadawg_77
01-06-2004, 08:39 AM
Since 2000
Oakland __________________White Sox
2003:96-66 _______________ 86-76
2002:103-59_______________81-81
2001:102-60_______________83-79
2000:91-70 ________________95-67

Oakland with a lower payroll by 10 million or more have out produce White Sox. Billy may not be perfect but he is better then Kenny.

Rex Hudler
01-06-2004, 09:19 PM
Didn't Schueler draft his daughter one year? Granted it was in a really late round, but still.

Schueler's daughter was drafted before 2 or 3 other players that eventually made the Majors. I can't recall all of them, but I believe Mario Valdez was one of them.

Randar68
01-07-2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I was just wondering because I'm waiting for some of KW's draft picks to make an impact. You mentioned a lot of the Sox pitching depth came in the '98-'99 drafts. KW gets credit for Borchard who is considered a flop. I don't think Schu was that great, but isn't it time for players from KW's first or secodn draft to be ready to make an impact soon? Reed seems like the closest and he moved fast up the minors, but who else is close to being a reliable everyday starter of starting pitcher?

Bob

All Kenny Acquisitions (off the top of my head):
Cotts
Diaz
Rauch (might have been Schu)
Pacheco
Honel
Wing

Any of these guys could be starting in Chicago by the end of next year.

CubKilla
01-07-2004, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I was just wondering because I'm waiting for some of KW's draft picks to make an impact.

I'm quite convinced Cotts was used in the latter part of the '03 season as a fifth starter because KW wanted return for the "botched" Foulke for Koch trade. How else do you explain calling-up a 20-something AA pitcher who couldn't find the strike zone in the minor leagues?

hold2dibber
01-07-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
I'm quite convinced Cotts was used in the latter part of the '03 season as a fifth starter because KW wanted return for the "botched" Foulke for Koch trade. How else do you explain calling-up a 20-something AA pitcher who couldn't find the strike zone in the minor leagues?

I don't buy that at all. Cotts was absolutely dominating in the minors and the Sox desperately needed someone to fill the 5th starter spot. While not the best decision, it certainly was reasonable, IMHO.

CubKilla
01-07-2004, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't buy that at all. Cotts was absolutely dominating in the minors and the Sox desperately needed someone to fill the 5th starter spot. While not the best decision, it certainly was reasonable, IMHO.

I know what you're saying about Cotts in AA, I just wouldn't call it dominating. He pitched around all the walks in Birmingham. That didn't happen when he was called up to the Sox.

But point taken.

Dadawg_77
01-07-2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
All Kenny Acquisitions (off the top of my head):
Cotts
Diaz
Rauch (might have been Schu)
Pacheco
Honel
Wing

Any of these guys could be starting in Chicago by the end of next year.

But that doesn't answer the question if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

Randar68
01-07-2004, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
I know what you're saying about Cotts in AA, I just wouldn't call it dominating. He pitched around all the walks in Birmingham. That didn't happen when he was called up to the Sox.

But point taken.

He had a ~.150-.160 Opponents BA against and had a ton of K's. Yes he gave up a bunch of walks, but NOBODY hit the ball hard off of him.

doublem23
01-07-2004, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't buy that at all. Cotts was absolutely dominating in the minors and the Sox desperately needed someone to fill the 5th starter spot. While not the best decision, it certainly was reasonable, IMHO.

Jon Rauch was also doing very well in Charlotte but no one mentioned him. I have to partially agree with CK that Cotts' debut at least had a little ego involved a la Mike Caruso starting at short in '98.

Daver
01-07-2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by doublem23
Jon Rauch was also doing very well in Charlotte but no one mentioned him. I have to partially agree with CK that Cotts' debut at least had a little ego involved a la Mike Caruso starting at short in '98.

Cotts had a good season in Birmingham,but he was the second best pitcher in the rotation.