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View Full Version : What if we didn't make moves a few years ago


Blueprint1
01-04-2004, 09:17 PM
Starting pitching

Burhlee
E-Lo-If we had signed him
Wells
Fogg
Garland

I think that the Sox might have won another division without Clayton in the lineup and Jose at third. What this tells me is sometimes its better not to make a move. I know this pitching rotation would have flaws but its better than what we have right now. Maybe we should take a look at what we have in our own system rather than trading for another question mark. If we make a move make it for someone we know will perform otherwise I say stick to within the system. The last thing we need is someone making alot of money and not performing.

Dub25
01-04-2004, 09:18 PM
I'm assuming Wells as in Kip.

Jjav829
01-04-2004, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Blueprint1
Starting pitching

Burhlee
E-Lo-If we had signed him
Wells
Fogg
Garland

I think that the Sox might have won another division without Clayton in the lineup and Jose at third. What this tells me is sometimes its better not to make a move. I know this pitching rotation would have flaws but its better than what we have right now. Maybe we should take a look at what we have in our own system rather than trading for another question mark. If we make a move make it for someone we know will perform otherwise I say stick to within the system. The last thing we need is someone making alot of money and not performing.

I thought everyone got over the whole "Josh Fogg is a major league starter quality pitcher" thing. What is we hadn't signed Loaiza? That rotation minus a potential #2/3 quality starter in Loaiza looks a lot worse. Are you still assuming we make the trade for Colon? If we still make the Colon trade then Loaiza would have never made the rotation and never has a great year for us. What if? What if? The bottom line is it was done. We don't know that Kip Wells would have ever succeeded here. He was crap while here and didn't have sustained success until he went to a different situation in the NL.

mike squires
01-04-2004, 10:58 PM
The only problem with staying within the system is taht we don't have one. We've either wasted or traded away the talent we did have. Our farm is not quite what it used to be. We are pretty thin. Our only chance is to finish last for about 3 years straight and sign some alex fernandez', Robin Venturas' and Jack Mcdowell's.

Huisj
01-04-2004, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Jjav829
I thought everyone got over the whole "Josh Fogg is a major league starter quality pitcher" thing. What is we hadn't signed Loaiza? That rotation minus a potential #2/3 quality starter in Loaiza looks a lot worse. Are you still assuming we make the trade for Colon? If we still make the Colon trade then Loaiza would have never made the rotation and never has a great year for us. What if? What if? The bottom line is it was done. We don't know that Kip Wells would have ever succeeded here. He was crap while here and didn't have sustained success until he went to a different situation in the NL.

I still just can't figure out why all the sudden when wells went to the pirates, he suddenly actually looked like he was trying to be aggressive and throw the ball hard with authority. With the Sox, even when he had his two good months in 2001, he looked like he was trying to be a finesse pitcher and hit the corners more than just going after hitters. Then all the sudden he leaves and he's throwing 94 mph high inside heat right by guys. Why?

CubKilla
01-05-2004, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by Huisj
I still just can't figure out why all the sudden when wells went to the pirates, he suddenly actually looked like he was trying to be aggressive and throw the ball hard with authority. With the Sox, even when he had his two good months in 2001, he looked like he was trying to be a finesse pitcher and hit the corners more than just going after hitters. Then all the sudden he leaves and he's throwing 94 mph high inside heat right by guys. Why?

Nardi Contreras

Blueprint1
01-05-2004, 01:29 AM
My point was that sometimes the best move to make is not to make one. If we had not made some of the moves we did in the last few years the Sox would be a better quality team right now. Thats why I'm not freaking out like alot of others that were not making moves.

RKMeibalane
01-05-2004, 04:16 AM
It's difficult to know whether the Sox would have been better off not having traded several of their young pitchers a few years ago. Wells didn't seem to be improving when he was with the Sox, but a lot of his problems may have the result of Nardi Contreras' incompetence. Having said that, even if Wells had lived up to expectations, the other issue to consider is whether the Sox would be able to afford to re-sign him. Reinsdorf has a history of not offering long-term contracts to pitchers. I don't think this situation would have been any different.

If Wells were still here, I don't think Loaiza would have been signed during ST. How that would have changed things is hard to say. Nobody knows what kind of season Kip would have had for the Sox in 2003.

Now, I do think that Wells would have been much more productive than Tood Ritchie in 2002, but that isn't saying much. I'm having trouble imagining anyone doing worse than the Toad.

gosox41
01-05-2004, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Huisj
I still just can't figure out why all the sudden when wells went to the pirates, he suddenly actually looked like he was trying to be aggressive and throw the ball hard with authority. With the Sox, even when he had his two good months in 2001, he looked like he was trying to be a finesse pitcher and hit the corners more than just going after hitters. Then all the sudden he leaves and he's throwing 94 mph high inside heat right by guys. Why?

I'lll tell you why. Nardi Contreras. If you look back at the interviews he gave when he was here he talked of pitching to a hitters weakness and nibbling. What he should have done is have faith in some of his arms and had them pitch aggressively. Power pitcher's can't be expected to nibble. Nardi was the worst pitching coach I've seen here in a while.

Bob

jeremyb1
01-05-2004, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I'lll tell you why. Nardi Contreras. If you look back at the interviews he gave when he was here he talked of pitching to a hitters weakness and nibbling. What he should have done is have faith in some of his arms and had them pitch aggressively. Power pitcher's can't be expected to nibble. Nardi was the worst pitching coach I've seen here in a while.

Bob

Yeah, he actually used the world "nibbling". I'd be shocked to see an interview where Nardi so much as implies he wanted his pitchers to try to throw perfect pitches and hit the corners instead of attacking hitters.

Nardi very well could've been part of the problem but lots of young pitchers struggle and its not always because their pitching coach fails them. It takes time for young pitchers to develop. Something with Wells - possibly due to the trade - may have simply clicked where he finally got it. I'm not sure you can be very certain that would've happened with our club even with Nardi on board. Furthermore even if Nardi was preventing Wells' success if we would've been patient and held onto Kip he would've been working under Coop in less than a year.

CubKilla
01-05-2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
It's difficult to know whether the Sox would have been better off not having traded several of their young pitchers a few years ago.

Very true. But any way you slice it, trading away 3 young arms for 1 NL pitcher w/an ERA over 4 the season prior and a sub-par .500 career record was assinine. It's a trade that, if this wasn't such a nickle-and-dime, Mickey Mouse Organization, never should have happened. If it wasn't for Ritchie's injury, he may well have lost 20 by August.

Wells and Fogg may not have become the next Ryan's or Clemen's, but they couldn't have done worse than Todd.

wsgdf
01-05-2004, 12:04 PM
Why would Fogg bump Garland to fifth? Why would he even be in the rotation? Was it his stellar 5.26 National League ERA that has you pining over him ??

Come on guys - get over Josh Fogg.

CubKilla
01-05-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by wsgdf
Why would Fogg bump Garland to fifth? Why would he even be in the rotation? Was it his stellar 5.26 National League ERA that has you pining over him ??

Come on guys - get over Josh Fogg.

Was that directed at me because I never said Fogg would be bumping anybody. It's just the players traded, young with a possible future, for a player that was less than mediocre with no foreseeable future, is a trade that any GM worth his salt and an Organization not into penny-pinching would ever do..... not without Pittsburgh throwing in someone else of possible value.

ewokpelts
01-05-2004, 12:15 PM
stop the "what if" stuff...we'd still suck

Gene

wsgdf
01-05-2004, 01:41 PM
Was that directed at me because I never said Fogg would be bumping anybody.

Nope, it was based on the original post. Sorry for the confusion.

It was clearly a bad trade. I don't think it ended up having a significant impact on anything however. I also don't think Williams has made a comparable trade since.