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misty60481
01-04-2004, 01:04 PM
How come I never hear a thing about Billy Pierce or Minnie Minoso mentioned when HOF time comes it seems always Ron Santo--granted Santo was good but he was the third best on his team at time.. Pierce was premier AL pitcher for most of the 50s and mostly with lite hitting teams Minoso was all around one of best at same time period. I bet when his time comes Harold Baines will get very little support..
What ever happened to Cass Michaels???

MarqSox
01-04-2004, 01:18 PM
Yeah, but let's not overlook the support Nellie Fox got a few years ago. And Shoeless Joe gets attention every now and then. It's not like the Sox have been neglected in the HOF popularization category.

voodoochile
01-04-2004, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by misty60481
How come I never hear a thing about Billy Pierce or Minnie Minoso mentioned when HOF time comes it seems always Ron Santo--granted Santo was good but he was the third best on his team at time.. Pierce was premier AL pitcher for most of the 50s and mostly with lite hitting teams Minoso was all around one of best at same time period. I bet when his time comes Harold Baines will get very little support..
What ever happened to Cass Michaels???

:reinsy
"It's all a part of my amazing PR machine. I try to ignore any player who non longer actually plays for the Sox. Once you are gone for whatever reason - be that pursuit of fair wages, traded because you were no longer my property and thus require fair wages or retirement after a long and productive career on the southside - then the Sox no longer give a rats patoot about you. I'll let Rob finish answering this question..."

:gallas
"Well, see, the players in question aren't actually on the playing field and our surveys have discovered that the current generation of fans cares more about bringing their dogs to the ballpark than they do about anything that happened prior to their being born, or really before they got out of bed this morning. If we overload them with information, they get mopey and lose interest and the next thing you know there are even MORE flubbie fans."

:reinsy
"So, see, we are protecting your interests, Sox fans. By refusing to hype our own past players and continuously talking down the players we are trying to trade, we are actually helping build the Sox fan base and bring you a better team. Hey, Rob, what's the latest on that bring your cat to the ballpark day? I thought that was a great idea..."

TornLabrum
01-04-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by misty60481
How come I never hear a thing about Billy Pierce or Minnie Minoso mentioned when HOF time comes it seems always Ron Santo--granted Santo was good but he was the third best on his team at time.. Pierce was premier AL pitcher for most of the 50s and mostly with lite hitting teams Minoso was all around one of best at same time period. I bet when his time comes Harold Baines will get very little support..
What ever happened to Cass Michaels???

They changed the HOF voting rules a couple of years ago. After a player retires he is still eligible after 5 years for voting by the BBWAA. They remain on the ballot for 15 years. Minoso and Pierce are well beyond that point, and they are affected by rule change. Now the ballot goes to all HOF members who cast their ballots every other year. They voted last year, and Minoso and Pierce didn't come close.

hold2dibber
01-05-2004, 09:34 AM
Last summer Rob Neyer published an article on ESPN.com that included a pretty good argument for why Minoso should be enshrined.

idseer
01-05-2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox
Yeah, but let's not overlook the support Nellie Fox got a few years ago. And Shoeless Joe gets attention every now and then. It's not like the Sox have been neglected in the HOF popularization category.

fox should have been voted in immediately, not brought thru the back door. fox did NOT get much support!

PaulDrake
01-05-2004, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by idseer
fox should have been voted in immediately, not brought thru the back door. fox did NOT get much support! Jerome Holtzman fought vigorously for him. You are correct, Fox was an after thought. It took years to get support for his enshrinement to be noticeable.

maurice
01-05-2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
:reinsy
"It's all a part of my amazing PR machine."

I always advocate for Minoso every time the Santo thing comes up and wish the Sox would do the same. When contrasted to the class and grace of Minoso, the way Santo and the media handle the issue is sickening.

TornLabrum
01-05-2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Last summer Rob Neyer published an article on ESPN.com that included a pretty good argument for why Minoso should be enshrined.

Better than the one I pulished here?

PaulDrake
01-05-2004, 09:30 PM
Herb Pennock, Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing, Early Wynn, Robin Roberts, Catfish Hunter, Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry and Phil Niekro are all HOF pitchers with a lifetime ERA+ rating below Billy Pierce. This is only a partial list, there are about a dozen or so more.

MarkEdward
01-05-2004, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
Herb Pennock, Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing, Early Wynn, Robin Roberts, Catfish Hunter, Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry and Phil Niekro are all HOF pitchers with a lifetime ERA+ rating below Billy Pierce. This is only a partial list, there are about a dozen or so more.

And of these players, Pierce pitched the least amount of innings.

Baseball-reference has Pierce's two most similar players as Vida Blue and Luis Tiant. Quickly glancing at each of their stats, they seem like good matches. Very good pitchers, all with so-so cases for the Hall, who just didn't throw enough innings.

PaulDrake
01-06-2004, 03:57 PM
No love for Billy. Not even on a White Sox board. Not even from a young fan who never saw him pitch. Dennis Eckersley, who I really liked by the way, just got voted in. His ERA plus is lower than Billy Pierce too and he pitched about the same amount of innings. I know. I know. Eckersley pitched for about 24 years and Pierce didn't. He won 20 games as a starter and then became a premier closer. Pierce and Minoso may be "borderline" cases but if you ever saw them play you'd know both were special. Minoso unfortunately missed out on the 59 pennant year. If Al Lopez hadn't stubbornly kept Pierce out of the starting rotation in 59 maybe it would only be 44 years and counting instead of 86 years. Billy Pierce and Minnie Minoso are two of baseballs neglected and forgotten former stars. I still say Minoso is the most popular White Sox player ever. Diss them, forget about them, ignore them if you wish. I still hold them in high esteem and know they've yet to get their just due from the experts and pundits.

Dadawg_77
01-06-2004, 04:45 PM
Hey is a look at Hall Famers and Billy and Minny based on new stats at Baseball Prospectus.com

Hall of Fame Averages: http://premium.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2502

Minnie:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/cards/minosmi01.shtml

Fixed the link

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/minosmi01.shtml

The proper ages for Minnie and years he played.

Billy:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/cards/piercbi02.shtml

Minnie looks pretty good compared to those who have made it. To explain further when you take in the fact that his peak season were taken away by the color line in baseball, his numbers look even better. That is the one area where Minnie has unfavorable comparisons with the averages.

idseer
01-06-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
No love for Billy. Not even on a White Sox board. Not even from a young fan who never saw him pitch. Dennis Eckersley, who I really liked by the way, just got voted in. His ERA plus is lower than Billy Pierce too and he pitched about the same amount of innings. I know. I know. Eckersley pitched for about 24 years and Pierce didn't. He won 20 games as a starter and then became a premier closer. Pierce and Minoso may be "borderline" cases but if you ever saw them play you'd know both were special. Minoso unfortunately missed out on the 59 pennant year. If Al Lopez hadn't stubbornly kept Pierce out of the starting rotation in 59 maybe it would only be 44 years and counting instead of 86 years. Billy Pierce and Minnie Minoso are two of baseballs neglected and forgotten former stars. I still say Minoso is the most popular White Sox player ever. Diss them, forget about them, ignore them if you wish. I still hold them in high esteem and know they've yet to get their just due from the experts and pundits.

and there's plenty of us who feel the same way. if ford is in the hall, pierce should be too.