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joecrede
01-02-2004, 08:51 PM
The trade rumor started me thinking ...

It doesn't seem that many people who post here or who cover baseball give Borchard a chance at being the everyday CF'er next year. If Borchard doesn't win the job out of spring training aren't his days as a White Sox effectively over?

A. Cavatica
01-02-2004, 08:55 PM
I think he has one more season to reestablish himself as a prospect. His 2003 was a disaster; his strike zone judgment regressed and he didn't hit with power. He's not going to play CF long in the majors, and Jeremy Reed looks like a better corner-outfield prospect.

Daver
01-02-2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The trade rumor started me thinking ...

It doesn't seem that many people who post here or who cover baseball give Borchard a chance at being the everyday CF'er next year. If Borchard doesn't win the job out of spring training aren't his days as a White Sox effectively over?

No,an injury plagued 2003 will not be held against him,he started the season off with a broken foot and then battled tendonitis for most of his season at Charlotte,which caused a big problem with both his swing and his power.He will be given a chance to compete in ST and also allowed to show he has recovered,if need be,in Charlotte.As of right now he is a better defensive CF'er than Aaron Rowand,he just needs to clean up his swing to win the job.

jeremyb1
01-02-2004, 10:06 PM
It seems unlikely to me that he'd beat out Rowand and Reed.

Daver
01-02-2004, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
It seems unlikely to me that he'd beat out Rowand and Reed.

Wanna back that up with a reason why?

A. Cavatica
01-02-2004, 10:33 PM
Well, both Rowand and Reed hit better in Birmingham than Borchard did when he was there. Rowand has hit pretty well in Chicago, too -- since he recovered from his own injury.
Borchard's skill is hitting for power, though he sure didn't show it last year. Reed and Rowand have some pop too, and Reed like Borchard bats left. I expect Reed and Rowand will both hit for a higher average and draw more walks than Borchard. Reed's baserunning skills appear to the best of the three. I really don't know who's the best fielder; it could be Borchard, but I don't think it's by much.

DrCrawdad
01-02-2004, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
I think he has one more season to reestablish himself as a prospect. His 2003 was a disaster; his strike zone judgment regressed and he didn't hit with power. He's not going to play CF long in the majors, and Jeremy Reed looks like a better corner-outfield prospect.

Hey Cavatica, there is a familiar name from alt.sports.baseball.chi-whitesox! Welcome aboard!

:LTP
GUNS FOR HIRE!

Daver
01-02-2004, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Well, both Rowand and Reed hit better in Birmingham than Borchard did when he was there. Rowand has hit pretty well in Chicago, too -- since he recovered from his own injury.
Borchard's skill is hitting for power, though he sure didn't show it last year. Reed and Rowand have some pop too, and Reed like Borchard bats left. I expect Reed and Rowand will both hit for a higher average and draw more walks than Borchard. Reed's baserunning skills appear to the best of the three. I really don't know who's the best fielder; it could be Borchard, but I don't think it's by much.

Check your numbers over Rowand's career.

You are comparing Joe in an injury plagued season to Rowand in a send down stint,which is comparing apples to oranges,Rowand has never hit for any average on any level he has ever been at,and has never shown any plate disclipline,and Reed has played about forty games above A ball.

Maybe you know more about this than I do,but I think you are reaching with that post.

DrCrawdad
01-02-2004, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The trade rumor started me thinking ...


What's the trade rumor that you're referring to?

RKMeibalane
01-02-2004, 11:52 PM
Aaron Rowand should not be a starting center fielder anywhere in the Major Leagues. His hitting, speed, and defensive capabilities are adequate at best. Although he showed improvement in 2003, I don't think his skills are going to progress much past the point they are at now. Rowand works hard, but he's destined to be a fourth outfielder. Even if he manages to win the starting job in ST, he won't be out there every day.

Both Borchard and Reed should be given every opportunity to win the starting CF job. At this point, I think Reed has the advantage over Borchard. LTP's 2003 season was a disaster. Granted, he spent much of the season battling foot and wrist injuries, both of which affected his power, but he still has not been able to shorten his swing or improve his pitch selection. Unless he can do these things soon, he won't be a part of the big league club.

As far as Borchard's future in the Sox organization is concerned, I think 2004 is his last chance to establish himself as a legitamate Major League player. If he isn't able to show any sort of promise as a Sox outfielder, then they need to think about trading him. There's no reason to sit around waiting for him to develop. He's already twenty five years old, so his window of opportunity is beginning to close.

Jeremy Reed, on the other hand, appears to have a bright future as a member of the White Sox. If he can even approach the level he played at in 2003, he'll be in excellent shape. To be honest, I think it's still a longshot that he'll make the team out of Spring Training, but I definitely think he will see time at the Major League level before the 2004 season ends. Depending on what happens with Rowand and Borchard, that may be sooner than we think.

On more thing: I don't want to see Willie Harris patrolling CF again. It's bad enough that he still can't hit the ball out of the infield. The Sox don't need him running around the outfield, futilely trying to catch balls hit into the gap.

I really wish the Sox had kept Mike Cameron.

jeremyb1
01-03-2004, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Wanna back that up with a reason why?

Well the alternative would be that he's close to the favorite or the co-favorite to win the job, right? Even if injuries were a huge factor in his season last year, guys that struggle in AAA rarely win starting jobs in the majors the very next season. Even if Borchard plays very well in the spring, he'd have to play better than Rowand who is the incumbent and has major league experience and at least as well as Reed who clearly has a great deal of ability.

Tragg
01-03-2004, 07:28 AM
I only saw Borchard swing a few times on TV, but it seemed to me that he really needs to learn the strike zone and take pitches. From what I could tell, he isn't at the "Wait for your pitch" point - it's the "don't swing at balls" point.
I hope he corrects that

A. Cavatica
01-03-2004, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad
Hey Cavatica, there is a familiar name from alt.sports.baseball.chi-whitesox! Welcome aboard!


Thanks DrCrawdad...I was wondering where the other eleven Sox fans hang out!

Regarding minor league numbers, there's no question that Reed's track record is best, even if he hasn't had a full season at AA yet -- his numbers are that good.

I was trying to compare everyone's numbers in *Birmingham*, not Borchard's lost 2003 season in Charlotte. Anyway, I *did* remember it incorrectly. Borchard did put up a good season there in 2001 (.295, 27, 98). Rowand was .258, 20, 98 the year before, after a good 1999 in Winston-Salem.

However, at Charlotte, Borchard was .272., 20, 59 in 2002 (438 AB); Rowand was .295, 16, 48 in 2001 (329 AB) and earned a callup to Chicago, where he was .293, 4, 20.

So, restated: Borchard's minor league numbers are not significantly better than Rowand's, but if the Sox are going to hand CF to a rookie, then Reed is likely to win the competition.

Borchard's career minor league OPS is .820, Rowand's .809.

Soxfest
01-03-2004, 10:37 AM
JB days as a prospect are dimming quickly this is a huge year for him to step

poorme
01-03-2004, 10:46 AM
This team is not going anywhere anyway. I wish they'd give Borchard 500 AB's, even if he hits .185. At least we'd know one way or the other what he can do.

jeremyb1
01-03-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by poorme
This team is not going anywhere anyway. I wish they'd give Borchard 500 AB's, even if he hits .185. At least we'd know one way or the other what he can do.

If that's the case I think I'd give those 500 ABs to Reed over Borchard.

TheRockinMT
01-03-2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Soxfest
JB days as a prospect are dimming quickly this is a huge year for him to step

Remember everyone that Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle didn't make it right away either. Sandy Koufax should promise but was inconsistent when he first came up. I think the Sox have too much invested in JB to end the relationship just yet.

npdempse
01-03-2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
Aaron Rowand should not be a starting center fielder anywhere in the Major Leagues. His hitting, speed, and defensive capabilities are adequate at best.

Could someone explain to me why Rowand's fielding is "average at best"? As I read the numbers (and based on my memory of some great plays he's made), that's just not true, but maybe I'm missing something--

Top 5 fielding CFs last season--
NAME GP GS INN TC PO A E DP FPCT RF ZR
Johnny Damon, Bos 144 141 1265.0 370 362 7 1 2 .997 2.63 .906
Bernie Williams, NYY 115 113 1001.1 294 290 3 1 1 .997 2.63 .846
Mike Cameron, Sea 147 145 1284.0 492 485 3 4 2 .992 3.42 .922
Torii Hunter, Min 151 149 1299.1 434 425 5 4 1 .991 2.98 .924
Vernon Wells, Tor 161 161 1416.0 390 383 3 4 0 .990 2.45 .919
Rocco Baldelli, TB 154 149 1322.2 456 436 15 5 4 .989 3.07 .871
Carlos Beltran, KC 130 129 1123.0 386 371 10 5 3 .987 3.05 .927

Rowand's career (since he really hasn't had many innings in CF)--
173 135 1217.2 397 382 11 4 3 .990 2.90 .953

With an RF of almost 3, and a ZR well over .900, what's wrong with his fielding?

(Obviously, his hitting and baserunning have not yet been up to snuff, but that's a different argument.)

MarkV
01-03-2004, 02:02 PM
If the Sox were smart, they'd trade Borchard while they can still get something for him. He's regressed every single year, and he never really has been that good. He has a long swing that he hasn't been able to shorten up. He can't hit a good major league fastball and he can't even come close to hitting a breaking ball, unless the pitcher hangs it. His judgment of the strike zone is brutal. He's got decent speed, but he's not better than Rowand defensively. He does have a strong, accurate arm, however. Just based on a lot of the comments he's made, he doesn't have the confidence in himself that you need to be a major leaguer. I don't even see him being a AAAA-type guy. A change of scenery might do him good. If Borchard were to play a full major league season at this point in his career, I'd expect to see a .240 AVG, 15 HR, 55 RBI, and 150+SO.

MisterB
01-03-2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
Remember everyone that Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle didn't make it right away either. Sandy Koufax should promise but was inconsistent when he first came up. I think the Sox have too much invested in JB to end the relationship just yet.

Mays, Mantle and Koufax all had hit the majors before the age of 21 and by 25 (what Borchard will be next year) they already were productive, well above average major leaguers. Borchard should be servicable, if not better than average, but comparing him to Hall of Famers is ridiculous at this point. For the $5M+ signing bonus they gave him, I'd have hoped that he were closer to major league ready.

habibharu
01-03-2004, 02:31 PM
no way that we should trade borchard. he's too young. i say you wait 2, 3 more years until he turns into an aaron miles type, then trade him

MisterB
01-03-2004, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
no way that we should trade borchard. he's too young. i say you wait 2, 3 more years until he turns into an aaron miles type, then trade him

And get the 2006 equivalent of Juan Uribe! :D:

ondafarm
01-03-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
. . . Reed's baserunning skills appear to the best of the three. I really don't know who's the best fielder; it could be Borchard, but I don't think it's by much.

I have seen all three play on a level field (so to speak.) Reed is the quickest of the three, although Borchard's long strides definately gobble up ground faster after a few steps. Edge in baserunning to Reed, in defensive speed to Borchard. Borchard has good fielding instincts and solid mechanics. He knows how to throw.

Reed will never be an everyday CF-er. Borchard might. I'd like to think both might start in Charlotte and be up to Chicago, Borchard in June? Reed in September.

TheRockinMT
01-03-2004, 05:17 PM
I think that JB still figures in our teams plans, if not for '04 then '05. I see Magglio Ordonez leaving either through a trade or to free agency. Boarchard will take over in an OF position, followed by Reed and most likley Carlos Lee. Lee himself might be traded in '05 or go free agent also. I don't see the Sox losing their insurance in the OF by letting Joe go in a trade. He may very well be given an opportunity to play as the 4th OF'er or given another year to mature in the minors.

Brian26
01-03-2004, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
no way that we should trade borchard. he's too young. i say you wait 2, 3 more years until he turns into an aaron miles type, then trade him

Hahahah. :D:

TheRockinMT
01-03-2004, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Mays, Mantle and Koufax all had hit the majors before the age of 21 and by 25 (what Borchard will be next year) they already were productive, well above average major leaguers. Borchard should be servicable, if not better than average, but comparing him to Hall of Famers is ridiculous at this point. For the $5M+ signing bonus they gave him, I'd have hoped that he were closer to major league ready.

THEY WEREN'T HALL OF FAMERS AT THAT POINT IN THEIR CAREERS AND I WAS NOT COMPARING BORCHARD TO THEM. THE POINT WAS THAT BORCHARD HAS TALENT AND CAN STILL DEVELOP. PLUS I AGREE THAT THE SIGNING BONUS MAY BE REASON ENOUGH THE SOX AREN'T LETTING HIM GET AWAY OR GIVING UP ON HIM.

mdep524
01-04-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
THE POINT WAS THAT BORCHARD HAS TALENT AND CAN STILL DEVELOP. PLUS I AGREE THAT THE SIGNING BONUS MAY BE REASON ENOUGH THE SOX AREN'T LETTING HIM GET AWAY OR GIVING UP ON HIM. [/B]

I have to jump in here and say that just trading a young player does not mean you are "giving up" on him- it means (if you get a good haul) you are "cashing in" on him. OFs are a dime a dozen, if Borchard has so much potential that we've never seen, and we are able to successfully market him to another team (something the Cubs do with all their bust outs- see Hill, Bobby), then if we can trade him in a good deal (not this ridiculous rumored LA deal), it's something to consider.

What I'm saying is his value is evident in either a.) his on field production for the White Sox or b.) the players he could bring in in a trade. One option is not necessarily better than the other. We have Reed, Anderson and Sweeney down on the farm, and Ordonez (for now) and Lee at the major league level already. If Borchard has high trade value, it might be worth it to take a look at what we could get for him. Originally I was hoping we could trade him to Montreal for Vazquez, or something similar. Now, maybe it would work if we do involve him in an LA deal- maybe Mags and Borchard for a package of (some of) Perez, Mota, Miller, Jackson and Loney, with more of an emphasis on getting the LA pitching prospects.

The other end of it is IF he never pans out...IF... then his value will NEVER be higher than it is right now. Just something to consider.

DrCrawdad
01-04-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by A. Cavatica
Thanks DrCrawdad...I was wondering where the other eleven Sox fans hang out!

IMHO this is THE spot for White Sox discussion. The "other eleven Sox fans" are here. Next thing you know Bubba will be posting here. Although is Bubba a Sox fan?

duke of dorwood
01-04-2004, 04:34 PM
As bad as we need left handed hitting, Joe should get a real chance to be in the line-up against right handers.

MisterB
01-04-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by TheRockinMT
THEY WEREN'T HALL OF FAMERS AT THAT POINT IN THEIR CAREERS AND I WAS NOT COMPARING BORCHARD TO THEM. THE POINT WAS THAT BORCHARD HAS TALENT AND CAN STILL DEVELOP. PLUS I AGREE THAT THE SIGNING BONUS MAY BE REASON ENOUGH THE SOX AREN'T LETTING HIM GET AWAY OR GIVING UP ON HIM.

Whoa, set it to stun there, Rock. Yes, Borchard still has time, but not that much. And if he can't even beat out the Aaron Rowands of the league for a job within the next year or so, it's not likely he'll be much more than a marginal ML player. (see Chris Singleton or any other 27 year old rookies.)

Frater Perdurabo
01-05-2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by poorme
This team is not going anywhere anyway. I wish they'd give Borchard 500 AB's, even if he hits .185. At least we'd know one way or the other what he can do.

AMEN! Borchard plays a better CF than Rowand and has better speed. If Borchard hit .185 and batted ninth, and stuck out 200 times, at least that would be better than what Konerko did last year when you figure that if LTP strikes out that much he can't possibly hit into as many double plays as Konerko did in 2003.

DrCrawdad
01-05-2004, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
AMEN! Borchard plays a better CF than Rowand and has better speed. If Borchard hit .185 and batted ninth, and stuck out 200 times, at least that would be better than what Konerko did last year when you figure that if LTP strikes out that much he can't possibly hit into as many double plays as Konerko did in 2003.

Konerko 28
Magglio 20
C Lee 20

rdivaldi
01-05-2004, 01:51 PM
A side note to those saying that Rowand outperformed Borchard's AA numbers:

Rowand (2000 AA)
20 HR, 98 RBI, 38 BB, 117 K, .258 AVG, .759 OPS

Borchard (2001 AA)
27 HR, 98 RBI, 67 BB, 158 K, .295 AVG, .893 OPS

Definite edge to Borchard.

AAA is a different story though....

maurice
01-05-2004, 03:04 PM
For all those keeping score at home . . .

Rowand - Age 26
MLB - 282 Games / .325 OBP / .418 SLG
AAA - 82 / .353 / .526
AA - 139 / .321 / .438
A - 194 / .358 / .501

Borchard - Age 25
MLB - 32 / .247 / .318
AAA ('03) - 114 / .307 / .398
AAA ('02) - 117 / .349 / .498
AA - 139 / .382 / .501
A - 16 / .400 / .436
R - 7 / .483 / .552

And, for the sake of comparison, Reed's fabulous 2003 stats . . .

AA - 66 / .474 / .591
A - 65 / .431 / .477

IMHO, Rowand is not likely to improve substantially beyond his okay 2003 stats. Rowand's only "advantage" over LTP and Reed is that Rowand has an established level of performance at the MLB level, while the other two remain unknowns with much higher ceilings. LTP is bigger, stronger, and faster than Rowand, while Reed is an OBP machine. If LTP or Reed can even approach their AA stats at the major league level, they will be much more valuable players than Rowand.

Reed's star is shooting straight up. LTP hit a major bump in the road. We'll find out what he's made of in 2004.

Dadawg_77
01-05-2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by maurice
For all those keeping score at home . . .

Rowand - Age 26
MLB - 282 Games / .325 OBP / .418 SLG
AAA - 82 / .353 / .526
AA - 139 / .321 / .438
A - 194 / .358 / .501

Borchard - Age 25
MLB - 32 / .247 / .318
AAA - 117 / .349 / .498
AA - 139 / .382 / .501
A - 16 / .400 / .436
R - 7 / .483 / .552

And, for the sake of comparison, Reed's fabulous 2003 stats . . .

AA - 66 / .474 / .591
A - 65 / .431 / .477

IMHO, Rowand is not likely to improve substantially beyond his okay 2003 stats. Rowand's only "advantage" over LTP and Reed is that Rowand has an established level of performance at the MLB level, while the other two remain unknowns with much higher ceilings. LTP is bigger, stronger, and faster than Rowand, while Reed is an OBP machine. If LTP or Reed can even approach their AA stats at the major league level, they will be much more valuable players than Rowand.

Reed's star is shooting straight up. LTP hit a major bump in the road. We'll find out what he's made of in 2004.

If Reed can come close to his AA stats, he is better then Mags.

jeremyb1
01-05-2004, 04:47 PM
I think Borchard's '03 stats should be included in the comparison. The fact that he had some injury issues doesn't make them completely irrelevant and that is his most recent performance.

maurice
01-05-2004, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
I think Borchard's '03 stats should be included in the comparison.

His '03 MLB stats are included in the numbers I provided. I tried to include his '03 AAA stats also, but my source contained a typo. For the record, LTP had a .307 OBP and .398 SLG in 114 games at AAA in '03, as reflected in the edit of my previous post.

MarkV
01-05-2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
If Reed can come close to his AA stats, he is better then Mags.

Whoa there! Jeff Abbott was way better than Maggs throughout the minors, and look where each of their careers has gone. You can't even come close to thinking that Reed is better than Maggs til after he has 4 or 5 years of major league experience under his belt.