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jabrch
12-30-2003, 10:38 AM
Can anyone recall a worse offseason than this?

With as close as we were to winning the division, and the removal of our manager (one of the main reasons why we did not win the division) I had such high hopes for this off season before it started.

:sellreinsy

:reinsy
"Why would I want more fans to come to the games? I might actually have to pay rent if that happens!"


I have never been so depressed as a Sox fan...it makes matters worse that the Cubs, who won their division, got stronger this offseason.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Can anyone recall a worse offseason than this?

With as close as we were to winning the division, and the removal of our manager (one of the main reasons why we did not win the division) I had such high hopes for this off season before it started.


IT'S DECEMBER! :angry: :angry: :angry:

Tell me, what had we done up to this point last year that made you so excited?

KingXerxes
12-30-2003, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
IT'S DECEMBER! :angry: :angry: :angry:

Tell me, what had we done up to this point last year that made you so excited?

As of last December we had not lost our rotation's workhorse, our centerfielder, our second baseman and our closer - and received nothing in return.

Although in retrospect you could say we ultimately received nothing for Foulke.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
IT'S DECEMBER! :angry: :angry: :angry:

Tell me, what had we done up to this point last year that made you so excited?

Moves the Sox made up to this point last year:

Agreed to terms on a one-year contract with free agent catcher Sandy Alomar Jr., who had been with the Colorado Rockies; did not offer contracts to pitchers Jim Parque and Todd Ritchie.

Sent the contract of infielder/pitcher Jason Dellaero outright to Charlotte of the International League (AAA).

Agreed to terms with designated hitter Frank Thomas on a one-year contract with three mutual option years.

Acquired pitcher Billy Koch and two players to be named later for pitchers Keith Foulke and Joe Valentine, catcher Mark Johnson and cash considerations.

Agreed to terms on a one-year contract with pitcher Kelly Wunsch.

Added pitchers Joe Valentine, Corwin Malone and Arnaldo Munoz to the 40-man roster.

Purchased the contracts of infielder Tim Hummel and pitchers Jon Adkins, Delvis Lantigua, Corwin Malone, Arnie Munoz, David Sanders, Josh Stewart, Joe Valentine and Brian West.

Agreed to terms with first baseman Paul Konerko on a three-year contract; agreed to terms with catcher Mark Johnson on a one-year contract.

Wow, with moves like that, how did we not win it all?

anewman35
12-30-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
As of last December we had not lost our rotation's workhorse, our centerfielder, our second baseman and our closer - and received nothing in return.


As of last December, none of those people were even on the team. A lot can happen before the season, and a lot can happen during it.

KingXerxes
12-30-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
As of last December, none of those people were even on the team. A lot can happen before the season, and a lot can happen during it.

But that wasn't your question was it?

In December of 2002 the White Sox did not have the holes that they have now. This addresses your original question of what is different between this December and last December.

poorme
12-30-2003, 11:06 AM
You have to make some sort of moves to give the fans a reason to be optimistic...I remember when we got Gary Redus. He wasn't very good, but Larry Himes talked it up and said he was going to be the leadoff man and bring a new dimension to the Sox and so on. At least it gave the fans something to THINK about. To not do ANYTHING makes your customers cranky and irritable. Not a good thing in any business.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
But that wasn't your question was it?

In December of 2002 the White Sox did not have the holes that they have now. This addresses your original question of what is different between this December and last December.

Last year at this time, our first starter was Mark Buehrle, our center fielder was Aaron Rowand, our closer was Billy Koch, and our second baseman was D'Angelo Jimenez. You're right, this team is SO different than last year's. I forgot that D'Angelo was so much better than Willie Harris!

anewman35
12-30-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by poorme
You have to make some sort of moves to give the fans a reason to be optimistic...I remember when we got Gary Redus. He wasn't very good, but Larry Himes talked it up and said he was going to be the leadoff man and bring a new dimension to the Sox and so on. At least it gave the fans something to THINK about. To not do ANYTHING makes your customers cranky and irritable. Not a good thing in any business.

Doing something just to do something leads to stupid trades. I'd rather have KW do nothing at all than to agree to something that doesn't help us, just to get some press.

KingXerxes
12-30-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Last year at this time, our first starter was Mark Buehrle, our center fielder was Aaron Rowand, our closer was Billy Koch, and our second baseman was D'Angelo Jimenez. You're right, this team is SO different than last year's. I forgot that D'Angelo was so much better than Willie Harris!

But the PERCEPTION at the time was different. You are using hindsight in order to draw a comparison. In December of 2002 fans THOUGHT they had a team which was going to compete. They don't now for obvious reasons.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
But the PERCEPTION at the time was different. You are using hindsight in order to draw a comparison. In December of 2002 fans THOUGHT they had a team which was going to compete. They don't now fo obvious reasons.

I guess I'm not a fan, then. I think we're going to win this division, and I'm more confidant than I was at this time last year. We've gotten rid of a horrible manager, gotten a new one who (I'm hoping) might fire up the team. Minnesota has lost it's bullpen strength as well as some other pieces. KC has added such stars as Matt Stairs, Scott Sullivan, and Tony Graffinino. Give them the AL title now!

To paraphrase JR, anybody who doesn't think we can win this division is crazy.

munchman33
12-30-2003, 11:23 AM
Please people have a little faith. There's plenty of time, and plenty more free agents.

Kenny will move a hitter for pitching (unfortunately, probably Mags) and then use that money to fill in the holes. It will hurt to lose Mags, but we'll probably be a better overall team because of it.

KingXerxes
12-30-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
I guess I'm not a fan, then. I think we're going to win this division, and I'm more confidant than I was at this time last year. We've gotten rid of a horrible manager, gotten a new one who (I'm hoping) might fire up the team. Minnesota has lost it's bullpen strength as well as some other pieces. KC has added such stars as Matt Stairs, Scott Sullivan, and Tony Graffinino. Give them the AL title now!

To paraphrase JR, anybody who doesn't think we can win this division is crazy.

No - You're a fan. A fan of an ever shrinking faction of the fan base that is happy with the way things are going.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
No - You're a fan. A fan of an ever shrinking faction of the fan base that is happy with the way things are going.

I wouldn't say I'm happy, exactly, because, sure, I'd love to go out and sign all sorts of players. I guess the difference is, I don't think it's the end of the world that we haven't.

JRIG
12-30-2003, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
Please people have a little faith. There's plenty of time, and plenty more free agents.

Kenny will move a hitter for pitching (unfortunately, probably Mags) and then use that money to fill in the holes. It will hurt to lose Mags, but we'll probably be a better overall team because of it.

Do you really think so? Is Odalis Perez and Mota (for example) more valuable than Mags?

The idea behind moving Mags is to save money and then replace him with guys who can still be productive. Problem is those guys are flying off the shelf -- Stairs, Sanders, Cruz, etc. If we move Ordonez now, I am very worried KW will have virtually no options to turn to in order to replace even some of Mags' production. For a team that had trouble getting on base and scoring runs last year, that's not a good thing.

jabrch
12-30-2003, 11:55 AM
Quite simply - all we have done this off season so far is LOSE players. We lost Robbie Alomar - and have no projected MLB quality replacement, nor are there any FAs out there of quality. (meanwhile, on the Northside - they have two guys better than anything out there for us) We lost the best pitcher we had - and there are no FAs out there in his calibre. We lost our OF depth. We have no CF. We have major questions about our 1B (PK).

If the season starts today
Harris
Carlos
Frank
Maggs
PK
Valentin
Crede
Rowand
Harris

Our rotation
Buehrle
Loaiza
Garland
and choose 2 from the following Adkins, Wright, Malone, Rauch, Cotts

Sure - there are some FAs who are better than those guys, but there are no FAs even close to the calibre of the guy we lost.

In the Pen, we lost our closer. The guy closing now was so bad last season that we had to send him to the minors to "rehab". Even when healthy and getting saves this guy always had tons of BS, Ls and a RIDICULOUS ERA for a closer.

Last year at this point in time we were better than we were in September of 2002. This year - we are worse than September of 2003.

jabrch
12-30-2003, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Do you really think so? Is Odalis Perez and Mota (for example) more valuable than Mags?

The idea behind moving Mags is to save money and then replace him with guys who can still be productive. Problem is those guys are flying off the shelf -- Stairs, Sanders, Cruz, etc. If we move Ordonez now, I am very worried KW will have virtually no options to turn to in order to replace even some of Mags' production. For a team that had trouble getting on base and scoring runs last year, that's not a good thing.

Jrig, I think Mags would be easier to replace than Colon. Take Perez - I don't really think this guy is much better than what we have today. He wouldn't be one of our top 3. Outside Dodger Stadium, this guy has been mediocre. We can replace Maggs with Burks or Juan Gonzalez and go from .310, 35, 100, 100 to about .290, 30, 90, 90 or better.

I don't see any way we can replace the SP we lost in Colon at this point unless KW has a major surprise up his sleeve.

Hangar18
12-30-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Can anyone recall a worse offseason than this?

With as close as we were to winning the division, and the removal of our manager (one of the main reasons why we did not win the division) I had such high hopes for this off season before it started.
I have never been so depressed as a Sox fan...it makes matters worse that the Cubs, who won their division, got stronger this offseason.

The last time the White Sox went into an OffSeason with some Holes to Fill, and they Blatantly DIDNT fill them, AND LET GOOD players get away and Blatantly DIDNT replace those players,
was the offseason before the 1995 Season. Anyone
remember anything Good coming of the 95 Season? Havnt seen the sox this lethargic since....well......1995.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by jabrch

Last year at this point in time we were better than we were in September of 2002.

No, we weren't. The only significant thing we'd done to change by this point last year was the Koch trade, which even if it had worked would not have been a significant improvement. this point last year. All the other additions happened later.

Iwritecode
12-30-2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
But the PERCEPTION at the time was different. You are using hindsight in order to draw a comparison. In December of 2002 fans THOUGHT they had a team which was going to compete. They don't now for obvious reasons.

I assume you are talking about Konerko and Koch. It's amazing how expectations can change within one year...

anewman35
12-30-2003, 12:09 PM
Check out the threads exactly a year ago here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=5&daysprune=1000&sortorder=&sortfield=lastpost&perpage=35&pagenumber=229) .

For a team that had made so many great moves up until that point, people don't seem too excited, do they?

jabrch
12-30-2003, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
No, we weren't. The only significant thing we'd done to change by this point last year was the Koch trade, which even if it had worked would not have been a significant improvement. this point last year. All the other additions happened later.

So the only loss we had was Foulke who was replaced by Koch. How is that even close to comparable?

Meanwhile, 3 miles north - they are building a legitimate championship contender.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
So the only loss we had was Foulke who was replaced by Koch. How is that even close to comparable?



We have almost the same team going into the season, that's how.

So, I have to ask - would this off season be better if we'd never gotten Colon or Gordon or Alomar or Everitt? Would you be less upset about the team? If so, why?

jabrch
12-30-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Check out the threads exactly a year ago here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=5&daysprune=1000&sortorder=&sortfield=lastpost&perpage=35&pagenumber=229) .

For a team that had made so many great moves up until that point, people don't seem too excited, do they?

Check out the team we had assembled at that point in time. Far superior to what we have today - and with better prospects due to available FAs.

Tell me what good FA SPs are out there? Tell me what SPs we could even trade for who improve this team?

jabrch
12-30-2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
We have almost the same team going into the season, that's how.

So, I have to ask - would this off season be better if we'd never gotten Colon or Gordon or Alomar or Everitt? Would you be less upset about the team? If so, why?

Because we are worse today than in September. If that September team couldn't win it, why should we think that this team can? Management waited til fans showed up to get Everett, Alomar, Sullivan (on the cheap) - and we lost the division by 2 games. Imagine if we'd have had them all season? We are worse today than we were when the season ended. That should make you sick.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Because we are worse today than in September. If that September team couldn't win it, why should we think that this team can? Management waited til fans showed up to get Everett, Alomar, Sullivan (on the cheap) - and we lost the division by 2 games. Imagine if we'd have had them all season? We are worse today than we were when the season ended. That should make you sick.

The Twins are also worse than they were in September, that's why we should think this team can. It wasn't at all feasable to have those players all season, there's a reason why we got them when we did - that's when their teams gave up. It's not like they were begging Kenny to take their players, and he just decided to go it at the end of the season.

Last year, the Sox made additions during the season to help the team. Why do you assume that can't happen again?

anewman35
12-30-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Check out the team we had assembled at that point in time. Far superior to what we have today - and with better prospects due to available FAs.


You are right about most of the good FAs being gone, I'm not going to dispute that (remember, though, that when we signed Gordon last year, he wasn't really considered a good FA, nobody knew how he'd be).

However, I take issue with the first part. What makes you say the team we had last year at this time was any better? All the key parts are almost identical to what we have this year (except this year, we have Loaiza, who's a better second starter than Garland would have been last year).

TornLabrum
12-30-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
The Twins are also worse than they were in September, that's why we should think this team can. It wasn't at all feasable to have those players all season, there's a reason why we got them when we did - that's when their teams gave up. It's not like they were begging Kenny to take their players, and he just decided to go it at the end of the season.

Last year, the Sox made additions during the season to help the team. Why do you assume that can't happen again?

Aren't we supposed to be gearing up to win more than the AL Comedy Central? Aren't we supposed to be putting together a team that can go deep into the playoffs? At this point, I'd say the Royals have a better team than we do.

Iwritecode
12-30-2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
The Twins are also worse than they were in September, that's why we should think this team can. It wasn't at all feasable to have those players all season, there's a reason why we got them when we did - that's when their teams gave up. It's not like they were begging Kenny to take their players, and he just decided to go it at the end of the season.

Last year, the Sox made additions during the season to help the team. Why do you assume that can't happen again?

It's sad when we have to hope the other teams are worse than our team rather than know that our team is better.

This division is going to be a battle for the tallest midget...

raul12
12-30-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by anewman35

Last year, the Sox made additions during the season to help the team. Why do you assume that can't happen again?

Hi Jerry Manuel! That's right, games in April and May don't count. With this team, we'll be so far out of the race by then that we'll be the team trading away what talent we have. And please forgive me for wanting more than a divisional title.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by raul12
With this team, we'll be so far out of the race by then that we'll be the team trading away what talent we have. And please forgive me for wanting more than a divisional title.

I want more than a divisional title, too. That's not the issue here - the race is against Minnesota and Kansas City. Do I want to beat other divisions? Sure. But does it matter if New York and Boston crush every central team? Not until October, it doesn't, and by then things can change. If we can play well against our division (and not playing well against Detroit is what killed the team last year), we're going to win it.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
This division is going to be a battle for the tallest midget...

The tallest midget still gets a playoff spot.

Another question for people here: Would you rather be the O's? They've improved significantly, and yet still have almost no chance.

mdep524
12-30-2003, 12:41 PM
It's not just the fact that this overall team has not been improved this off season- more than that it is the blatant lack of caring on management's part that really irks me. JR is cheap and couldn't care less how well the team fared, the only motivating factor for him is his bottom line of $$$$.

And though I give him so slack for having his hands tied by the payroll, KW clearly has no plan or direction for this team right now. Does he even know what he WANTS for 2004, let alone what he will GET?

The Sox are trying to do just enough to scrape by. The bare minimum. How less exciting could things be??

anewman35
12-30-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Aren't we supposed to be gearing up to win more than the AL Comedy Central? Aren't we supposed to be putting together a team that can go deep into the playoffs? At this point, I'd say the Royals have a better team than we do.

Well, it's at least going to be a race, don't you think? I don't think we're going to run away or anything, but I don't think any of the teams will. Do I wish we had the team to do it? Sure. Do I think we can complete? Sure.

My theory (and if you don't agree, fine) is that worrying about the playoffs can come later. Start off good, stay in the race when people start getting out of it, and trade to improve your team. It doesn't have to be done now.

JRIG
12-30-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
The Twins are also worse than they were in September, that's why we should think this team can.

Yes, but the Royals are better. You can laught all you want to at Stairs, Graffanino, Santiago, and Sullivan, but they are all parts of a winning team. The Royals have not lost much and have added quality players. We've lost our #1 (or #2) pitcher, our starting CF, starting 2B, and 2nd best bullpen arm. The options for replacing those players are slim, and they shouldn't include the names Harris or Rowand. At least, not if we're looking to win.

raul12
12-30-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by anewman35

My theory (and if you don't agree, fine) is that worrying about the playoffs can come later. Start off good, stay in the race when people start getting out of it, and trade to improve your team. It doesn't have to be done now.

What makes you think, with the team we have now, and REASONABLE expectations of signings and trades that we can start off good? If you are counting on the Oz-man...

Do you remember back when the league first went to the three division setup--how bad the AL west sucked? That's now the AL central and the AL West won exactly nothing during those years.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
Yes, but the Royals are better. You can laught all you want to at Stairs, Graffanino, Santiago, and Sullivan, but they are all parts of a winning team. The Royals have not lost much and have added quality players.

Well, it's debatable. I personally don't think they'll be as good as they were last year. That's why they play the games, I guess...

TornLabrum
12-30-2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Well, it's at least going to be a race, don't you think? I don't think we're going to run away or anything, but I don't think any of the teams will. Do I wish we had the team to do it? Sure. Do I think we can complete? Sure.

My theory (and if you don't agree, fine) is that worrying about the playoffs can come later. Start off good, stay in the race when people start getting out of it, and trade to improve your team. It doesn't have to be done now.

What good does it do to make the playoffs when you're the worst club there? You go 3 and out. Big hairy deal!

Tekijawa
12-30-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
What good does it do to make the playoffs when you're the worst club there? You go 3 and out. Big hairy deal!

We've gone three and out when we we the best team in the playoffs... personally I don't see us making the playoffs, so there should really be no arguing about it

joecrede
12-30-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
What good does it do to make the playoffs when you're the worst club there? You go 3 and out. Big hairy deal!

What good does it do to raise this year's payroll to $80M if they would still only be the third best team in the playoffs -- and that's best case scenario. What would happen if they didn't make the playoffs with that $80M payroll?

jabrch
12-30-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
What good does it do to make the playoffs when you're the worst club there? You go 3 and out. Big hairy deal!

While I agree with your statement, the fact is that you can't win a WS unless you make the playoffs. Now this team - realistically, even if it does limp into the playoffs almost surely can't beat Boston or NYY. But that is the reality of the game today. I would rather make the playoffs and take a shot at a few miracle series than wait until we have enough talent to build a team better than whatever Boston and NYY can afford to buy.

jabrch
12-30-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
What good does it do to raise this year's payroll to $80M if they would still only be the third best team in the playoffs -- and that's best case scenario. What would happen if they didn't make the playoffs with that $80M payroll?

Because once you get into the playoffs, anything can happen. The Yankees, with their 150mm payroll last year, lost to Florida. They lost to Anaheim the year before that. Look - I know it is unlikely that we can limp into the playoffs as the AL Central winner, play vs the #1 WC team (Boston or NYY) in a 5 game series, win that, then somehow beat the other team in a 7 game series, before moving on the WS to beat the Cubs in a 7 gamer. But if we don't improve - and we finish 2nd in the AL Central - we will be home again for the playoffs and will have no chance.

sure I'd love to win the WS - but at least get me into the playoffs!

TornLabrum
12-30-2003, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
What good does it do to raise this year's payroll to $80M if they would still only be the third best team in the playoffs -- and that's best case scenario. What would happen if they didn't make the playoffs with that $80M payroll?

Yeah, so let's play it safe and do nothing!

:reinsy

"Now you're speaking my language!"

voodoochile
12-30-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
What good does it do to raise this year's payroll to $80M if they would still only be the third best team in the playoffs -- and that's best case scenario. What would happen if they didn't make the playoffs with that $80M payroll?

Okay, fine. How about a middle ground - $70M which would put them within spitting distance of MLB average.

JRIG
12-30-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, fine. How about a middle ground - $70M which would put them within spitting distance of MLB average.

If we increased the payroll to that level, I would imagine KW would have overpaid for Alomar to come back and then would have overpaid for Colon to come back -- and that should have spent the 13-16 million increase to get to the $70-75 million level.

We don't necesarily have to spend a lot more money. We have to spend what we spend smarter. Why are we in the crunch we're in now? Because KW foolishly gave big extensions to Konerko and Koch. So does he learn anything? No! He gives a huge extension to Lee, who will be one of the most overpaid players in the game in 2005.

Honestly, I don't care that much about raising the payroll . History shows we'd probably spend it foolishly anyway. I'd just like for it to appear like we have a clue about the new economics of baseball.

Iwritecode
12-30-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
What good does it do to raise this year's payroll to $80M if they would still only be the third best team in the playoffs -- and that's best case scenario. What would happen if they didn't make the playoffs with that $80M payroll?

I'd rather be the third best team in the playoffs than the eighth best...

If they had an $80M payroll and didn't make the playoffs, I guarantee heads would roll. If they had that much and spent it the right way, they would easily win the Central division and at least have a good shot at getting past the first round...

Lip Man 1
12-30-2003, 01:28 PM
Anewman:

Just wondering.....

Aren't you making a big assumption that if the Sox are in the race for the Comedy Central in July they'll go out and make additions?

Hear me out please... if the financial situation is as bad as some make it out to be there aren't any guarantees on your point about acquiring talent is there?

and by the same token if the Sox are compeditive in this bad division why should we assume they'll get anybody? Just the fact that they have a chance to win the worst division in baseball WITHOUT getting help could be enough to convince certain individuals in the organization that more help isn't needed don't you think?

With this organization I don't think you can ever assume anything they do things that shock and surprise fans and have for years both good and bad.

Lip

Iwritecode
12-30-2003, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by JRIG
If we increased the payroll to that level, I would imagine KW would have overpaid for Alomar to come back and then would have overpaid for Colon to come back -- and that should have spent the 13-16 million increase to get to the $70-75 million level.

We don't necesarily have to spend a lot more money. We have to spend what we spend smarter. Why are we in the crunch we're in now? Because KW foolishly gave big extensions to Konerko and Koch. So does he learn anything? No! He gives a huge extension to Lee, who will be one of the most overpaid players in the game in 2005.

Honestly, I don't care that much about raising the payroll . History shows we'd probably spend it foolishly anyway. I'd just like for it to appear like we have a clue about the new economics of baseball.

You're right about spending the money wisely. Although overpaying for Colon and Alomar would make the team better than they are right now...

anewman35
12-30-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Anewman:

Just wondering.....

Aren't you making a big assumption that if the Sox are in the race for the Comedy Central in July they'll go out and make additions?

With this organization I don't think you can ever assume anything they do things that shock and surprise fans and have for years both good and bad.

Lip

I'm just guessing, same as anybody. Kenny did it last year (and got other teams to pay for most of the salaries, while still keeping our best prospects). Based on what he didn last year, I'd say the odds are in favor of him trying it again.

I really think people misread me - I don't like the fact that the Sox haven't gotten anybody and aren't doing anything. However, I'm not letting my disappointment in that cloud my judgement - this team is not a bad team. Great? No, not even close. But, in this division, they should be a .500 team. If they end up getting hot and finishing a couple games higher, they'll win the division. At least for the foreseeable future, we'll never have a high payroll (and, please, enough with the JR shots, we all know what we all think) - but as long as the other AL Central teams continue to not do much, we have a shot, and that's more than a lot of other teams have.

raul12
12-30-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
You're right about spending the money wisely. Although overpaying for Colon and Alomar would make the team better than they are right now...

which would leave us with only one significant hole left...CF, although some think that crash is serviceable as an everyday CF. We'd still need one more starter, but I'd be relatively comfortable letting a rookie or a non-roster invitee battle it out for the 5th starter spot.

Iwritecode
12-30-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
but as long as the other AL Central teams continue to not do much, we have a shot, and that's more than a lot of other teams have.

So if the Twins or Royals or possibly even the Indians add one or two impact players, we're screwed.

I hate hoping for other teams to suck...

CWSGuy406
12-30-2003, 01:42 PM
At this point last year, our rotation was:

Buerhle
Loaiza (had they even picked him up yet?)
Garland
Wright
?

Wow, this rotation looks really dominant! We didn't know Loaiza wasn't going to win us 20 games either. We didn't know how Garland or Wright would fare. We had one solid starter, Beurhle, who ended up being not as we expected until halfway through the year.

I'm not happy with the offseason, I don't think anyone is. But it isn't over. Ponson is still out there. Maddux is, too.

I'm confident KW will get rid of the dead weight, and bring in a some solid pitching by the time spring training comes along.

jabrch
12-30-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
I'm not happy with the offseason, I don't think anyone is. But it isn't over. Ponson is still out there. Maddux is, too.

I'm confident KW will get rid of the dead weight, and bring in a some solid pitching by the time spring training comes along.

A) Nobody said it is over
B) Maddux is not even an option for us. He has no interest in pitching for us - and he is out of our budget.
C) What leads you to believe anyone will take the deadweight from Kenny and not dump their own deadweight on us? (Cedeno)

boog_alou
12-30-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by CWSGuy406
I'm confident KW will get rid of the dead weight, and bring in a some solid pitching by the time spring training comes along.
Do you really think KW will be able to trade away Konerko and/or Koch in a way that frees up enough payroll room to BOTH get this team under budget AND free up enough money to acquire pitching?

If so, he's a miracle worker. I think money is too tight league-wide. Those teams willing to add salary can just use it to sign a free agent. It makes no sense for any team to acquire Konerko or Koch's huge contract, unless they give back a big contract in return, which doesn't help the Sox.

The problem with all of this "It's only December" talk is that this offseason, KW's budget is tighter than ever. The core group of players costs A LOT of money this year, much more than in prior years. It really ties his hands.

What he is being forced to do by this circumstance is to trade Maggs and hope and pray he can do it in such a way that keeps the team from getting worse.

kempsted
12-30-2003, 02:15 PM
I relize everyone will just keep repeating - yeah but we suck :whiner: :whiner:

But let's try looking at the FACTS.

Last year we had done nothing, had a suspect rotation, etc. People were not opptomistic then (when are Sox fans ever truly optomistic).

You say - hey but we lost all these free agents? Yeah well so has everyone else. Look at the O's they let half there team go. Yes they are signing players but they lost a lot of free agents. The Giants and the Braves - what have they done?

1. Last year we had done nothing at this point
2. This year very few teams have done anything yet
3. Most teams have let most of their free agents walk

As far as that team up north that is as one poster said "building a championship team" - you must be joking. They also let all their free agents walk including virtually every player that Hendry got for the stretch run. They got rid of half of that great trade with LA as well. They have signed 2 second basemen for some reason - made moves that essentially meant - Lee at first base but gone are Choi, Simon and Karros - improvement?

And if we don't go overboard with salary now they will make moves in the stretch just like they did this year. You can bank on that. It also happens to be a good strategy because you most likely are not paying that much for them at that point if you structure the trades right - like KW did last year.

joecrede
12-30-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
The problem with all of this "It's only December" talk is that this offseason, KW's budget is tighter than ever. The core group of players costs A LOT of money this year, much more than in prior years. It really ties his hands.

You hit the nail right on the head. The players Williams identified this year (Lee) and last year (Koch and Konerko) as the core of this team are grossly overpaid. Whatever budget crunch Williams is in, he had a large part in creating.

jabrch
12-30-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
As far as that team up north that is as one poster said "building a championship team" - you must be joking. They also let all their free agents walk including virtually every player that Hendry got for the stretch run. They got rid of half of that great trade with LA as well. They have signed 2 second basemen for some reason - made moves that essentially meant - Lee at first base but gone are Choi, Simon and Karros - improvement?


Are you kidding me? What have they lost? They lost three guys that couldn't carry Derek Lee's jock. They lost Lofton - BUT HE WAS A REPLACEMENT FOR PATTERSON who is coming back. The lost Alfonseca (addition by subtraction). That's it.

The added a gold glove 1B who is a 30/30 guy - and will hit even more homers when he is in Wrigley instead of Pro-Player. They signed Hawkins to shore up their pen. The added an allpurpose LH IF in Walker. They added a 4th OF in Hollandsworth and resigned Goodwin to back up Patterson.

Are you trying to tell me that you think they aren't the heavy favorite in the NL? Vegas seems to disagree with you - and they are usually right. The Cubs right now are paying 5-2, just behind NYY and BOS.

JRIG
12-30-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
You hit the nail right on the head. The players Williams identified this year (Lee) and last year (Koch and Konerko) as the core of this team are grossly overpaid. Whatever budget crunch Williams is in, he had a large part in creating.

2004 salaries:
Koch 6.375
Konerko 8
Lee 6.5
Valentin 5
Ordonez 14
= 39.875 million

A large part? How about an entire part. KW handed out all those contracts. Anybody on that list even close to earning those contract amounts? Mags, maybe...if he has a career year. I have no confidence in this front office's ability to evaluate and grade talent. Instead of blaming Reinsdorf, how about laying blame at KW's feet. Maybe JR froze the payroll so KW can't give out any more ridiculous contracts.

:KW
"Hmmmm....5 years, 30 million for Roberto Alomar? He's a grinder! I 'll do it!"

TornLabrum
12-30-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
I'm just guessing, same as anybody. Kenny did it last year (and got other teams to pay for most of the salaries, while still keeping our best prospects). Based on what he didn last year, I'd say the odds are in favor of him trying it again.

I really think people misread me - I don't like the fact that the Sox haven't gotten anybody and aren't doing anything. However, I'm not letting my disappointment in that cloud my judgement - this team is not a bad team. Great? No, not even close. But, in this division, they should be a .500 team. If they end up getting hot and finishing a couple games higher, they'll win the division. At least for the foreseeable future, we'll never have a high payroll (and, please, enough with the JR shots, we all know what we all think) - but as long as the other AL Central teams continue to not do much, we have a shot, and that's more than a lot of other teams have.

I've been a fan of this club for 48 years now, and it's the SOS (same old ****) year after year after year after....

So exactly how is my judgment clouded? They're suddenly going to do a complete reversal of past behavior this year?

anewman35
12-30-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I've been a fan of this club for 48 years now, and it's the SOS (same old ****) year after year after year after....

So exactly how is my judgment clouded? They're suddenly going to do a complete reversal of past behavior this year?

So, what, should we just assume that the Sox will never do "a complete reversal of past behavior" and NEVER actually win anything? Yeah, that's fun. Why even care about the team, then?

kempsted
12-30-2003, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Are you kidding me? What have they lost? They lost three guys that couldn't carry Derek Lee's jock. They lost Lofton - BUT HE WAS A REPLACEMENT FOR PATTERSON who is coming back. The lost Alfonseca (addition by subtraction). That's it.

The added a gold glove 1B who is a 30/30 guy - and will hit even more homers when he is in Wrigley instead of Pro-Player. They signed Hawkins to shore up their pen. The added an allpurpose LH IF in Walker. They added a 4th OF in Hollandsworth and resigned Goodwin to back up Patterson.

Are you trying to tell me that you think they aren't the heavy favorite in the NL? Vegas seems to disagree with you - and they are usually right. The Cubs right now are paying 5-2, just behind NYY and BOS.

Anyone who has them as the heavy favorite is an idiot. Vegas doesn't ever think anything. Moronic betters set the odds not Vegas.

Why would they be the heavy favorites? :?:

1. Last year they had the worst record of any team that made the playoffs
2. Statisticlly they were the third best team IN THEIR DIVISION - and Houston - one of the teams that was better has made more significant offseason moves so far than the Cubs.

As far as what they lost -
Estes, Glanville, Guthrie, Karros, O'Leary, Veres, Womack, Chiasson, Simon, Alfonseca, Lofton.

By trade they have said goodby to Choi and Miller

Although you may not be impressed it is interesting it is almost every player that Hendry traded for.

As far as Patterson coming back - the word is not imediatly.

Oh and you are right. That all important 1b upgrade.

Here are the OPS numbers
Karros .786
Choi .771
Simon .743

Lee is .888

An upgrade ? Sure. At an important position? No.

PS

Here is a link to last years Pythagorean ratings

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/neyer/index

Notice that third place finish for the Cubs last year.

delben91
12-30-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

and by the same token if the Sox are compeditive in this bad division why should we assume they'll get anybody? Just the fact that they have a chance to win the worst division in baseball WITHOUT getting help could be enough to convince certain individuals in the organization that more help isn't needed don't you think?

With this organization I don't think you can ever assume anything they do things that shock and surprise fans and have for years both good and bad.

Lip

Lip, I don't want to make a habit of this, but for once I agree with you :D: . I don't doubt that if the Sox were in the hunt in the Central (and admittedly it would be pretty sad if they weren't) that JR would pull the purse strings and not let KW make any moves. KW showed us last year that he'll go the extra mile to make a contending team better, but he can't do that unless the owner gives him the green light.

Bottom line, sign enough players to fill the roster, I'm so desperate for some baseball right now I'd watch anyone play...until May that is, when I reserve the right to bitch about everyone on the roster.

kempsted
12-30-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by jabrch

The added a gold glove 1B who is a 30/30 guy - and will hit even more homers when he is in Wrigley instead of Pro-Player. They signed Hawkins to shore up their pen. The added an allpurpose LH IF in Walker. They added a 4th OF in Hollandsworth and resigned Goodwin to back up Patterson.


All purpose LH IF in Walker ? :?: :?:
Since when? He is a 2nd baseman. Period. So they signed a 2nd baseman to go with Grudzie who is also only a secondbaseman.

Look at their OF - Alou - played a career high number of games last year - was bad the year before and is near the end of his career

Patterson - was disappointing but finally was having a career brake out year and got hurt for almost half of the season. For a young player that can be huge.

Sosa - the player most likely to be impacted by drug testing.

Hollandsworth was a good pick up. But lets compare his numbers to our own much maligned Aaron Rowand. They played a similar number of games last year

Hollandsworth .254 Average
.317 OBP
.421 SLG

Rowand .287 Average
.327 OBP
.422 SLG

All that with an awful start to the season due to the motor cycle accident

kempsted
12-30-2003, 04:15 PM
Oops and I forgot to mention the Cubs lost Augie O :D:

maurice
12-30-2003, 04:31 PM
I don't understand why folks think comparing the current roster to the December 2002 roster should infuse optimism. Even after adding Colon, Gordon, Everett, Alomar, and Sullivan, last year's team failed to win the worst division in the AL. Now all of those players are gone. Even assuming that KW makes equivalent moves at equivalent times in 2004, there's little reason to believe that the 2004 Sox will be any better than the inadequate 2003 team.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by maurice
Even assuming that KW makes equivalent moves at equivalent times in 2004, there's little reason to believe that the 2004 Sox will be any better than the inadequate 2003 team.

Well, there is a new manager, which might help. But anyway, there's plenty of reason to believe that the 2004 Minnesota Twins will be worse than the 2003 Minnesota Twins, and since we finished 4 games behind them, that will help.

maurice
12-30-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Well, there is a new manager, which might help.

The operative word being "might." I hope I'm wrong, but there's very little evidence that Ozzie will be a good manager. We'll just have to wait and see.

But anyway, there's plenty of reason to believe that the 2004 Minnesota Twins will be worse than the 2003 Minnesota Twins, and since we finished 4 games behind them, that will help.

Well, if it's too early to tell if the Sox will be worse, it's too early to tell if the twinks will be worse. AJ was a good player, but Mauer could be a great one. They'll also get a full season from Stewart and some of their good, young hitting prospects. Without studying the matter closely, I don't think any of their regulars played way over their head in 2003. Both teams lost a number of good pitchers, but Colon was the most valuable pitcher lost by either team, particularly since Milton hardly pitched in 2003.

In any event, even assuming for the sake of argument that the Sox are getting worse at a relatively slower rate than the twinks, that's a classic example of damning a team with faint praise.

TornLabrum
12-30-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
So, what, should we just assume that the Sox will never do "a complete reversal of past behavior" and NEVER actually win anything? Yeah, that's fun. Why even care about the team, then?

I love it when people ask that question. I care about the Sox for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I fell in love with the Go-Go-Sox in 1955 when Marty Marion was the manager. I was five years old at the time.

I've been with them through 13 consecutive seasons over .500, the total collapse of 1968, the Dick Allen years, the Hit Men, and 22 years of Jerry Reinsdorf.

My grandfather was a diehard Sox fan. I caught the disease from him. He actually was around when we won a couple of World Series. I grew up on stories of Ed Walsh, Buck Weaver, and Joe Jackson.

The first game I went to was at Comiskey Park in 1956. Sox won 2-1. I also saw Billy Wynne lose to the Seattle Pilots in a rainsoaked game in April of 1969. I was at the game where Frank Thomas hit his 400th homer. My son was at the game with me when Bo Jackson made his comeback.

I don't know. You tell me why I'm still a fan.

Sheesh!

TornLabrum
12-30-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by maurice
The operative word being "might." I hope I'm wrong, but there's very little evidence that Ozzie will be a good manager. We'll just have to wait and see.

Actually you've seen no evidence that Ozzie will be a good manager since he hasn't managed a game yet.

gosox41
12-30-2003, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
But that wasn't your question was it?

In December of 2002 the White Sox did not have the holes that they have now. This addresses your original question of what is different between this December and last December.

This December is also different because KC proved them selves to be a decent team in 2003 and are even better now after the moves they made. Minnesota hasn't lost as much as many think. Cleveland is a year more experienced and could surprise some people, kind of like the 2000 Sox did (though I don't see Cleveland getting 95 wins.)

Bob

jabrch
12-31-2003, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by kempsted
Anyone who has them as the heavy favorite is an idiot. Vegas doesn't ever think anything. Moronic betters set the odds not Vegas.

Why would they be the heavy favorites? :?:

1. Last year they had the worst record of any team that made the playoffs
2. Statisticlly they were the third best team IN THEIR DIVISION - and Houston - one of the teams that was better has made more significant offseason moves so far than the Cubs.

As far as what they lost -
Estes, Glanville, Guthrie, Karros, O'Leary, Veres, Womack, Chiasson, Simon, Alfonseca, Lofton.

By trade they have said goodby to Choi and Miller

Although you may not be impressed it is interesting it is almost every player that Hendry traded for.

As far as Patterson coming back - the word is not imediatly.

Oh and you are right. That all important 1b upgrade.

Here are the OPS numbers
Karros .786
Choi .771
Simon .743

Lee is .888

An upgrade ? Sure. At an important position? No.

PS

Here is a link to last years Pythagorean ratings

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/neyer/index

Notice that third place finish for the Cubs last year.

I have seen pythagorean ratings - great. Their young pitchers are getting older and better. They have the best rotation in the NL by FAR. Of those players they lost, they were not the big FAs that Hendry signed. They still have Aramis Rameriez and Grudzelanek. Losing most of those guys was addition by subtractions. In case you didn't notice, Hawkins, Hollandsworth, Walker, Barrett, etc. are all better players than all those guys they let go with the only exception being Lofton. And Choi - TERRIBLE.

Your Patterson info is nothing but speculation. Nobody has yet seen anything from him.

As far as your attempt to belittle Derek Lee, he did that in Pro-player. A very deep park in the gaps and in CF. Interestingly, his power comes from that spot of the park. McKeon said he lost 10+ HRs at home last year due to balls hit between LCF and RCF that would be HRs in most places. Just wait until he sees the baskets in Wrigley.

And - it is not the bettors who SET the odds. They change based on betting patterns, but the odds are SET by the casinos. They were set, on opening day as the high favorite to win the NL. Laugh at Vegas odds all you want - but they are most often right. You don't think they build those castles by being wrong do you?

Why am I wasting time DEFENDING the Cubs?

jabrch
12-31-2003, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Actually you've seen no evidence that Ozzie will be a good manager since he hasn't managed a game yet.

Using that logic, we have seen no evidence to prove he wont be good either, right?

hsnterprize
12-31-2003, 07:22 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Moves the Sox made up to this point last year:

Agreed to terms on a one-year contract with free agent catcher Sandy Alomar Jr., who had been with the Colorado Rockies; did not offer contracts to pitchers Jim Parque and Todd Ritchie.

Sent the contract of infielder/pitcher Jason Dellaero outright to Charlotte of the International League (AAA).

Agreed to terms with designated hitter Frank Thomas on a one-year contract with three mutual option years.

Acquired pitcher Billy Koch and two players to be named later for pitchers Keith Foulke and Joe Valentine, catcher Mark Johnson and cash considerations.

Agreed to terms on a one-year contract with pitcher Kelly Wunsch.

Added pitchers Joe Valentine, Corwin Malone and Arnaldo Munoz to the 40-man roster.

Purchased the contracts of infielder Tim Hummel and pitchers Jon Adkins, Delvis Lantigua, Corwin Malone, Arnie Munoz, David Sanders, Josh Stewart, Joe Valentine and Brian West.

Agreed to terms with first baseman Paul Konerko on a three-year contract; agreed to terms with catcher Mark Johnson on a one-year contract.

Wow, with moves like that, how did we not win it all? Remember this...there wasn't that much action going on with the Cubs at the time, either. It's only now after the Cubs win the NL Central and get all this national publicity, and after the Cub fans in the local media get all giddy about their team making the post-season, that the Cubs are under the microscope. And I'll give them credit for making some decent moves. They may not work out, but at least the perception is that the Cubs are working to try and improve while the Sox, even with a competitive roster right now, haven't signed any outside players other than Jose Uribe. Who would you rather have...Uribe, or LaTroy Hawkins?

surfdudes
12-31-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
I have seen pythagorean ratings - great. Their young pitchers are getting older and better. They have the best rotation in the NL by FAR. Of those players they lost, they were not the big FAs that Hendry signed. They still have Aramis Rameriez and Grudzelanek. Losing most of those guys was addition by subtractions. In case you didn't notice, Hawkins, Hollandsworth, Walker, Barrett, etc. are all better players than all those guys they let go with the only exception being Lofton. And Choi - TERRIBLE.

Your Patterson info is nothing but speculation. Nobody has yet seen anything from him.

As far as your attempt to belittle Derek Lee, he did that in Pro-player. A very deep park in the gaps and in CF. Interestingly, his power comes from that spot of the park. McKeon said he lost 10+ HRs at home last year due to balls hit between LCF and RCF that would be HRs in most places. Just wait until he sees the baskets in Wrigley.

And - it is not the bettors who SET the odds. They change based on betting patterns, but the odds are SET by the casinos. They were set, on opening day as the high favorite to win the NL. Laugh at Vegas odds all you want - but they are most often right. You don't think they build those castles by being wrong do you?

Why am I wasting time DEFENDING the Cubs?


Defend the Cubs all you want. The glaring omission that I see is that unknown quantity called the "Cub Factor" Whether it is Former Cub players booting the big play on other baseball teams, or the Northsider's propensity to Choke away 3 -1 series leads, or the ability to play five months of stellar baseball, only to pack it in during September and let someone come back from a 10+ game deficit, it's all the same. Based on history, or lack thereof, I don't see the Cubs in the playoffs next year. Only twice since WW2 have the Cubs gone 2 or more seasons in a row playing above .500 ball. In the case of the Cubs, the Vegas odds don't carry much weight.

Ozzie is undefeated as the new manager so far.........

Lip Man 1
12-31-2003, 01:28 PM
Just wondering.....

Are these the same pythagorean ratings that said the Twins should NOT have won the division the past two seasons?

That's why the games are played on the field and not in some computer geeks basement. Mathematical formula (formuli?) can't measure heart, guts and the 'luck' factor that influences every game and ultimately every season.

Lip

anewman35
12-31-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Just wondering.....

Are these the same pythagorean ratings that said the Twins should NOT have won the division the past two seasons?

That's why the games are played on the field and not in some computer geeks basement. Mathematical formula (formuli?) can't measure heart, guts and the 'luck' factor that influences every game and ultimately every season.


That's true, just as it's true that games aren't played on message boards in December - however bad some of you think this team is, there's a ton of stuff that we just won't know until they play the season. THAT is the reason not to be discouraged. Or do what I do - go in not really expecting much, then you won't be too disappointed when that's all you get.

Iwritecode
12-31-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
go in not really expecting much, then you won't be too disappointed when that's all you get.

Ah... such is the life of a Sox fan.

BTW, congrats on #500. One more and you're a personality.

:D: :gulp:

anewman35
12-31-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Ah... such is the life of a Sox fan.

BTW, congrats on #500. One more and you're a personality.

:D: :gulp:

Heh, thanks. Here goes, then. :gulp:

I think most of them were in the last few days, too...It's hard work being the only person on the boards who thinks we have a chance! :D:

voodoochile
12-31-2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Heh, thanks. Here goes, then. :gulp:

I think most of them were in the last few days, too...It's hard work being the only person on the boards who thinks we have a chance! :D:

I think the Sox have a chance to win the division, but so many things are going to have to break right for that to happen. A little more money and inventivess and they could put themselves in the drivers seat, but as of now they are at best in a dogfight for the weakest division in baseball. They might make the playoffs, but barring a major miracle will be bounced in the first round by either NY or Boston.

Iwritecode
12-31-2003, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Heh, thanks. Here goes, then. :gulp:

I think most of them were in the last few days, too...It's hard work being the only person on the boards who thinks we have a chance! :D:

Well, somebody has to do it. Besides, it what fun would it be here if I didn't have somebody to debate with about how good or bad the team will be next year?

:)

kempsted
12-31-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by jabrch


Your Patterson info is nothing but speculation. Nobody has yet seen anything from him.

And - it is not the bettors who SET the odds. They change based on betting patterns, but the odds are SET by the casinos. They were set, on opening day as the high favorite to win the NL. Laugh at Vegas odds all you want - but they are most often right. You don't think they build those castles by being wrong do you?

Why am I wasting time DEFENDING the Cubs?
Patterson info was from many sources including Bruce Livine and other Cub close sources.

The odds are "set" based on how they guess gamblers will bet not on how they think the game will go. The Oddsmakers make their money by making it so about half bet one way and half the other. They are counting on the overhyped Cubs being expected to win by idiots.

And why are you wasting your time DEFENDING the Cubs. :smile:

We should all just take the words of my seven year old son when a kid told him he was a disgrace to the north side since he rooted for the Sox - "Cubs suck, go Sox".

Or you could use what my friend said when he heard this story "Disgrace to the north side? You are confusing me with the Chicago Cubs". :D:

Daver
12-31-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
I think the Sox have a chance to win the division, but so many things are going to have to break right for that to happen. A little more money and inventivess and they could put themselves in the drivers seat, but as of now they are at best in a dogfight for the weakest division in baseball. They might make the playoffs, but barring a major miracle will be bounced in the first round by either NY or Boston.

Winning the AL Central is about the same as winning a tallest midget contest...........

SoxxoS
12-31-2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Winning the AL Central is about the same as winning a tallest midget contest...........

Once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen.

TornLabrum
12-31-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen.

Yeah, Minnesota was the worst AL team in the playoffs, and look how far they got!

anewman35
12-31-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Yeah, Minnesota was the worst AL team in the playoffs, and look how far they got!

The Cubs and Florida were the best two NL teams in the playoffs - They didn't do anything!

red faber
12-31-2003, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen.

not if you're the white sox!!!!

TornLabrum
12-31-2003, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
The Cubs and Florida were the best two NL teams in the playoffs - They didn't do anything!

Too bad the Sox aren't in the NL then.

Daver
12-31-2003, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
The Cubs and Florida were the best two NL teams in the playoffs - They didn't do anything!

Explain your logic on this one,the Cubs won two more games than the Sox did.

kempsted
01-01-2004, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
The Cubs and Florida were the best two NL teams in the playoffs - They didn't do anything!

Was this a typo? Did you mean to say the worst two teams? They clearly did have the worst to records and you were responding to someone who had said Minnesota was the worst team in AL.

anewman35
01-01-2004, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by kempsted
Was this a typo? Did you mean to say the worst two teams? They clearly did have the worst to records and you were responding to someone who had said Minnesota was the worst team in AL.

Err, yes, it was. Oops.