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ode to veeck
12-29-2003, 02:09 PM
Exerpt from Dec 29 Sports Illustrated, "Too True to be Good" by Steve Rushin

"AND YOU THINK YOUR JOB BLOWS

The retired superintendent at the Metrodome told the Minneapolis Star Tribune that he used to adjust the stadium's air-conditioning in the late innings of close games. When the Twins were losing, says Dick Ericson, 'you'd want to be blowing all the air out and up as much as you can.' "

RKMeibalane
12-29-2003, 02:47 PM
I really hope the MLB does something about this. Using the air vents in order to aid the flight of a baseball is obviously cheating. I expect the Twins to be fined at some point, and I will be dissapointed if they aren't.

Hangar18
12-29-2003, 03:01 PM
I knew that to be fact, even moreso by Being there last season.
Ask Wilkes. those "fans" were turned off for Carlos Lee's
Bomb that suddenly just held up in the air...........
if you stood up, you could feel a strong breeze, despite being in a domed stadium

mandmandm
12-29-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I really hope the MLB does something about this. Using the air vents in order to aid the flight of a baseball is obviously cheating. I expect the Twins to be fined at some point, and I will be dissapointed if they aren't.

Did you forget who was "running" mlb??

RKMeibalane
12-29-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by mandmandm
Did you forget who was "running" mlb??

Good point. I've been trying to put Bud Selig out of my mind.

Brian26
12-29-2003, 03:20 PM
Isn't this old news? Didn't we see this story about 4 or 5 months ago?

jabrch
12-29-2003, 03:48 PM
This is an old story - years old. Manipulation of stadium conditions is regular. This seems particularly nauseating - but we all know it happens. Maybe we ought to move JRs box into CF. When the opponents are hitting, he can open his gigantic blow-hole and shut down opposing hitters. Then when we are up, he can rush to a box behind the plate.

LittleBears Suck
12-29-2003, 06:57 PM
Willie McGee said he could feel the vents blowing for Twins homers during the 1987 World Series, ironically won in 7 games by the Twins.

Brian26
12-29-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
This is an old story - years old.

The rumor is years old, but this particular story about the former employee admitting the fans were turned on and off....this came out last summer. It was even talked about here on the board.

Lip Man 1
12-29-2003, 10:49 PM
Gang:

It's called 'gamesmenship.' Baseball teams have been doing that kind of stuff for years. Give the Twins credit for figuring out how to have an even bigger advantage in their abortion of a ballpark.

And let's not get to sanctimonious here. The Sox had a pretty decent relief pitcher Al Worthington quit the team in 1967 I think after he learned that the Sox were stealing signs out of the old scoreboard in the original Comiskey Park. He was very religious and didn't think it was right.

The Sox also had the 'frozen baseballs' and the baselines that just happened to slope in so that renouned bunters like Aparicio, Fox, Landis etc would have their bunts stay in play and increasing the chances of reaching base because of their speed.

That's baseball folks.

Lip

StillMissOzzie
12-30-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Gang:

It's called 'gamesmenship.' Baseball teams have been doing that kind of stuff for years. Give the Twins credit for figuring out how to have an even bigger advantage in their abortion of a ballpark.

The Sox also had the 'frozen baseballs' and the baselines that just happened to slope in so that renouned bunters like Aparicio, Fox, Landis etc would have their bunts stay in play and increasing the chances of reaching base because of their speed.

That's baseball folks.

Lip

I think that this goes beyond "gamesmanship". At least with the frozen baseballs and tilted foullines, both teams played under the SAME conditions, albeit conditions that were conducive to the Sox' game at the time. In the Hump, changing the air currents for Twins batters vs. the opposition is outright cheating, IMHO.

SMO

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-30-2003, 01:35 AM
What were the 'frozen baseballs'? Were they just baseballs that were frozen??? :?:

TommyJohn
12-30-2003, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
What were the 'frozen baseballs'? Were they just baseballs that were frozen??? :?:

Yes, literally. They were kept frozen so that when they defrosted,
they would become wet, which would deaden them. The Sox
pulled this trick back in the '60's, to help out the pitching staff.

doublem23
12-30-2003, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Gang:

It's called 'gamesmenship.' Baseball teams have been doing that kind of stuff for years. Give the Twins credit for figuring out how to have an even bigger advantage in their abortion of a ballpark.

And let's not get to sanctimonious here. The Sox had a pretty decent relief pitcher Al Worthington quit the team in 1967 I think after he learned that the Sox were stealing signs out of the old scoreboard in the original Comiskey Park. He was very religious and didn't think it was right.

The Sox also had the 'frozen baseballs' and the baselines that just happened to slope in so that renouned bunters like Aparicio, Fox, Landis etc would have their bunts stay in play and increasing the chances of reaching base because of their speed.

That's baseball folks.

Lip

This is absoletuly ridiculous. We're not talking changing the park to give your team an advantage, but still allowing the other team to use that said advantage. We're talking actively changing the "weather" to help one team and hurt the other.

I can recall a handful of times at the Twinkie Dome balls that could have been homers that just hang up there and come down either barely in play, or within reach of the outfielders (remember Caballo's that Hunter went a few feet up the wall for?). Anyone who can even possibly argue that this is just "part of the game" is a stark, raving lunatic.

Meixner007
12-30-2003, 03:35 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
This is absoletuly ridiculous. We're not talking changing the park to give your team an advantage, but still allowing the other team to use that said advantage. We're talking actively changing the "weather" to help one team and hurt the other.

I can recall a handful of times at the Twinkie Dome balls that could have been homers that just hang up there and come down either barely in play, or within reach of the outfielders (remember Caballo's that Hunter went a few feet up the wall for?). Anyone who can even possibly argue that this is just "part of the game" is a stark, raving lunatic.

Gotta agree with you here. I mean there's a difference between a team doing something like moving the fences in (affects both teams) and a team that creates a one sided advantage (the twins for God knows how long).

Foulke You
12-30-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Gang:

It's called 'gamesmenship.' Baseball teams have been doing that kind of stuff for years. Give the Twins credit for figuring out how to have an even bigger advantage in their abortion of a ballpark.

And let's not get to sanctimonious here. The Sox had a pretty decent relief pitcher Al Worthington quit the team in 1967 I think after he learned that the Sox were stealing signs out of the old scoreboard in the original Comiskey Park. He was very religious and didn't think it was right.

The Sox also had the 'frozen baseballs' and the baselines that just happened to slope in so that renouned bunters like Aparicio, Fox, Landis etc would have their bunts stay in play and increasing the chances of reaching base because of their speed.

That's baseball folks.

Lip

I have to disagree with you here Lip. In my opinion, what the Twins do is beyond the normal gamesmanship of tailoring the grass and dirt on the field to the type of team you have. If you can literally turn on and off the wind or "weather" in key situations in the game, you have an advantage that crosses the line of gamesmanship and is downright cheating. As a previous poster pointed out, when the field is tailored to a certain level of play, both teams are playing on it and the conditions remain the same for both teams. Also, in relation to sign stealing, there is nothing stopping the team from changing signs up or trying to steal the opposition's signs. The wind controlled atmosphere of the Hump Dome doesn't provide fair conditions as there is nothing the visiting team can do about the wind being blown in their faces every time they bat up. What the Twins do with the "wind" is even more evidence that baseball belongs outdoors and not inside a pressurized balloon of a dome.

Brian26
12-30-2003, 12:48 PM
The fact that anyone believes that "giant fans" inside the Dome can effect any flyball is ludicrous. The balls are hit with enough power and force behind them to travel almost 400-ft. Some man-made fans aren't going to effect these baseballs in mid-air. These fans can't re-create the kind of wind currents you get in an outdoor stadium. Anyone who has taken a science class past 7th grade level should understand this when they step back and look at it objectively. We're not talking about wiffle balls being hit by tee-ball age kids.

Baby Fisk
12-30-2003, 12:57 PM
If the south side had a dome, everyone would complain about that cheap bastard JR not cranking the fans enough for Sox hitters.

Foulke You
12-30-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
The fact that anyone believes that "giant fans" inside the Dome can effect any flyball is ludicrous. The balls are hit with enough power and force behind them to travel almost 400-ft. Some man-made fans aren't going to effect these baseballs in mid-air. These fans can't re-create the kind of wind currents you get in an outdoor stadium. Anyone who has taken a science class past 7th grade level should understand this when they step back and look at it objectively. We're not talking about wiffle balls being hit by tee-ball age kids.

How are you an expert on what the exaust fans at the Twinkee Dome can do? Even a science class at the 7th grade level teaches you that air molecules blowing a certain direction against an object can effect that object. Regardless of how hard or fast the object is moving, it can change the trajectery or speed of the object. As we know, many times baseball is a game of inches. Do you think Carlos Lee's robbed homer last year would have been caught if the fans weren't blowing up and in? It most likely changed the trajectery of the ball just enough to allow a gold glover like Hunter to catch it.

Look at it from a common sense point of view as well. Do you really think the Twins would go through the trouble of turning these giants fans on and off if it DIDN'T give their team an advantage? The answer is absolutely not. They do it because they KNOW it gives their team the edge. Plain and simple.

Baby Fisk
12-30-2003, 01:15 PM
Don't forget: "90% of baseball is mental, the other half is physical." --Y.Berra

Brian26
12-30-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
How are you an expert on what the exaust fans at the Twinkee Dome can do?

Because I am. How are you an expert?

Even a science class at the 7th grade level teaches you that air molecules blowing a certain direction against an object can effect that object.

It depends on the mass of the object and the velocity of air molecules blowing on it.


Regardless of how hard or fast the object is moving, it can change the trajectery or speed of the object.


You lost me here, bro. That's just not true. If I blow on a 747 jet heading right for my face, is that jet going to get out of the way?


As we know, many times baseball is a game of inches.

Yes, we know that.


Do you think Carlos Lee's robbed homer last year would have been caught if the fans weren't blowing up and in?

Yes, it would have most likely still been caught.


It most likely changed the trajectery of the ball just enough to allow a gold glover like Hunter to catch it.

Nah, highly unlikely.


Look at it from a common sense point of view as well. Do you really think the Twins would go through the trouble of turning these giants fans on and off if it DIDN'T give their team an advantage?.

Why do people smoke when it's been proven the habit will kill you?


The answer is absolutely not. They do it because they KNOW it gives their team the edge. Plain and simple.

I think they're giving it a try for the hell of it, but I highly doubt they have any evidence that it actually works.

ma-gaga
12-30-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
How are you an expert on what the exaust fans at the Twinkee Dome can do?
...
Do you think Carlos Lee's robbed homer last year would have been caught if the fans weren't blowing up and in?
...
They do it because they KNOW it gives their team the edge. Plain and simple.

This story is old. The guy that revealed this story retired 8 or 9 years ago. Last summer the University of Minnesota did a study on how much the 'wind' generated by the fans would affect these 'homeruns' fly balls. They found no positive correlation between blowing to decrease homeruns. IIRC, that there was actually some negative results found. In other words, the air currents swirled enough to help carry the ball out of the park. I'll see if I can find the story and link it.

Basically the full interview made the guy that was in charge of running the fans sound delusional. The Twins don't own the Metrodome, so they technically don't control the conditions.

Now, mentally, it's a great tactic. It gets in other teams heads that they are being cheated and they get flustered instead of concentrating on the game in front of them. Then they can never let it go.

:D: Carlos hit a bomb, but he got a little too far under it.

ma-gaga
12-30-2003, 02:18 PM
Here we go. The full article. (http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/6392418.htm) There's the meat of the arguments at the end. The first test results showed 3 feet of difference between 'fans in' and 'fans out', but they couldn't replicate the results, making the study "inconclusive".

Despite several professors of fluid dynamics looking at it. Do they count as experts, or do you only need a 7th grade education to be an expert?

:D:

Brian26
12-30-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
:D: Carlos hit a bomb, but he got a little too far under it.

Thanks Gaga. At least someone else is thinking with their head today.

daveeym
12-30-2003, 02:28 PM
And from my interpretation of what's been said they are not changing the conditions for the twins but for both teams at the end of the game. It's not like these things stop on a dime and instantly change directions, fans of that size would be blown out if that was the case, so it's extremely unlikely that someone changed the direction of the fans as carlos' flyball was in flight. So it's basically a weather change effecting both teams, happens in chicago all the time.

Foulke You
12-30-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Because I am. How are you an expert?



It depends on the mass of the object and the velocity of air molecules blowing on it.





You lost me here, bro. That's just not true. If I blow on a 747 jet heading right for my face, is that jet going to get out of the way?




Yes, we know that.




Yes, it would have most likely still been caught.




Nah, highly unlikely.




Why do people smoke when it's been proven the habit will kill you?




I think they're giving it a try for the hell of it, but I highly doubt they have any evidence that it actually works.




In the Metrodome - the only major league stadium with an inflatable roof - air pressure to keep the roof inflated is generated from fans that blow air through a special corridor and over the field. The fans are controlled through the dome's operations center.

So you are saying that man-made fans that are manipulated through a control center in the stadium and are capable of producing air currents that can keep the entire roof of the Metrodome inflated and standing absoulutely cannot effect a mere baseball? We're talking pressurized air that can keep the entire square footage of the Metrodome stadium roof standing! C'mon, you at least have to aknowledge the POSSIBILITY that this air is strong enough to effect the flight of a baseball.

Your smoking argument is pretty weak also. We're not talking about a habit that people get hooked on for mental and social reasons. Turning the fans on and off is the possible physical manipulation of a baseball game do to manufactured weather conditions. The purpose of doing this is not "for the hell of it", it is to give their team an edge that the opposition doesn't have. Apples and oranges my friend.

After firing 83 baseballs at a 50-degree angle, Marusic analyzed the results and concluded that the balls went, on average, about 3 feet farther when the fans behind home plate were blowing. He also tested the opposite scenario and discovered that balls landed about 3 feet shorter when the outfield fans were turned on, blowing air inward, and the home plate fans were turned off.

Even the skeptic professor left the door open:

His only caveat was that air currents "potentially" might affect a baseball's distance.

If conditions were the same in the Metrodome on the day Torii Hunter catches Lee's homer as when Marusic tested his 50 degree angle baseball shots, 3 feet would have been all the difference in the world in Hunter catching that home run wouldn't it?

Foulke You
12-30-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by daveeym
And from my interpretation of what's been said they are not changing the conditions for the twins but for both teams at the end of the game. It's not like these things stop on a dime and instantly change directions, fans of that size would be blown out if that was the case, so it's extremely unlikely that someone changed the direction of the fans as carlos' flyball was in flight. So it's basically a weather change effecting both teams, happens in chicago all the time.

It isn't changing the conditions while the ball is in flight, it is changing the conditions in the latter parts of the game for an entire half inning, particularly when the visiting team is batting. This isn't speculation, you have people on this board like Hangar18 who were ACTUALLY THERE and felt the breeze blowing in when the Sox were batting.

Now, I'm no "Metrodome fan expert" like Brian26 but I would take an educated guess to say that changing the fan airflow could be done in the 3 minute TV commercial breaks between innings relatively easily.

Brian26
12-30-2003, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
This isn't speculation, you have people on this board like Hangar18 who were ACTUALLY THERE and felt the breeze blowing in when the Sox were batting.

After downing 8 Miller Lites before the end of the third inning, Hangar also saw flying pigs coming in over the rightfield wall.
:D:


Now, I'm no "Metrodome fan expert" like Brian26 but I would take an educated guess to say that changing the fan airflow could be done in the 3 minute TV commercial breaks between innings relatively easily.

The nonsense continues...

Brian26
12-30-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
If conditions were the same in the Metrodome on the day Torii Hunter catches Lee's homer as when Marusic tested his 50 degree angle baseball shots, 3 feet would have been all the difference in the world in Hunter catching that home run wouldn't it?

But if Caballo's ball was the MONSTER BLAST that everyone thought it was when it left his bat, the ball should have landed 40 feet beyond the wall. The 3-feet difference wouldn't have mattered.

miker
12-30-2003, 03:44 PM
So are we saying this thread is full of HOT AIR? :)

(Sorry, couldn't help myself...)

Foulke You
12-30-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
But if Caballo's ball was the MONSTER BLAST that everyone thought it was when it left his bat, the ball should have landed 40 feet beyond the wall. The 3-feet difference wouldn't have mattered.

When did I ever say it was a "MONSTER BLAST"? I think everyone agrees that it was a borderline homer shot to the deepest part of the park in CF. You are correct that if Carlos clobbered it right on the screws, it would have sailed out, fans or no fans. It is borderline homer shots like Caballo hit in that game where the fans could certainly come into play. I'm simply open to the possibility that exaust fans that are used to pressurize the dome, if manipulated to form a breeze blowing in could have indeed effected a borderline homer shot such as Caballo's that was mere inches from being out of Hunter's reach.

Also, please elaborate on how my theory of being able to turn a fan from on to off in a 3 minute stretch is "nonsense"? Does it take a 5 man crew to flip a switch or something? :?:

I think we may have to agree to disagree here altough I do enjoy the debate. :D:

Hangar18
12-30-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
It isn't changing the conditions while the ball is in flight, it is changing the conditions in the latter parts of the game for an entire half inning, particularly when the visiting team is batting. This isn't speculation, you have people on this board like Hangar18 who were ACTUALLY THERE and felt the breeze blowing in when the Sox were batting.

Now, I'm no "Metrodome fan expert" like Brian26 but I would take an educated guess to say that changing the fan airflow could be done in the 3 minute TV commercial breaks between innings relatively easily.

Man, I thought we talked about this before also. I stand by what I saw. Wilkes was also there, and we were in the RF corner, by the Bullpens. Gave us a perfect angle on seeing
a ball leaving the bat, and more importantly, the Trajectory.
I made fun of all the Fans (human twins fans) for the "sudden
summer breezes" that were very noticable when the Twinkies
were batting. it wasnt a passing summer chinook we were feeling. we were indoors. Lee Crushed that ball, and if you saw the replay, he stood for a moment to Admire it.....Everytime they show that Face he makes when he Rounds 1st Base...it isnt because of the Catch Hunter made....but more because he couldnt believe the ball stayed in the park. we were robbed

whitesoxwilkes
12-30-2003, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by Hangar18
Man, I thought we talked about this before also. I stand by what I saw. Wilkes was also there, and we were in the RF corner, by the Bullpens. Gave us a perfect angle on seeing
a ball leaving the bat, and more importantly, the Trajectory.
I made fun of all the Fans (human twins fans) for the "sudden
summer breezes" that were very noticable when the Twinkies
were batting. it wasnt a passing summer chinook we were feeling. we were indoors. Lee Crushed that ball, and if you saw the replay, he stood for a moment to Admire it.....Everytime they show that Face he makes when he Rounds 1st Base...it isnt because of the Catch Hunter made....but more because he couldnt believe the ball stayed in the park. we were robbed

There was plenty of hot air blowing in the HumpDome that night, and it wasn't just coming from Twins fans mouths.

raul12
12-30-2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by whitesoxwilkes
There was plenty of hot air blowing in the HumpDome that night, and it wasn't just coming from Twins fans mouths.

This is a bit off topic, but does anyone recall the discussion (I think back on the espn boards) with some crappy scrub fan (I think his alias was black something or other) about him arguing about the effect of wind on fly balls, and then we found out that he ran a creepy web site? gives me the creeps just thinking about it....

Brian26
12-30-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Foulke You
I think we may have to agree to disagree here altough I do enjoy the debate. :D:

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Even adding the extra 3 feet onto Caballo's bomb, can we both at least agree that Torii F'N Hunter would have caught it anyway? :D:

Daver
12-30-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by raul12
This is a bit off topic, but does anyone recall the discussion (I think back on the espn boards) with some crappy scrub fan (I think his alias was black something or other) about him arguing about the effect of wind on fly balls, and then we found out that he ran a creepy web site? gives me the creeps just thinking about it....


LOL!!

I remember that guy.


Mr. I'll sue you for that.........

Foulke You
12-31-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
We'll just have to agree to disagree. Even adding the extra 3 feet onto Caballo's bomb, can we both at least agree that Torii F'N Hunter would have caught it anyway? :D:

With the Twins incredible luck in the baggy dome the past few years, it wouldn't have surprised me to see Hunter sprout angel wings and fly up to catch the ball. :D:

Iwritecode
12-31-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by raul12
This is a bit off topic, but does anyone recall the discussion (I think back on the espn boards) with some crappy scrub fan (I think his alias was black something or other) about him arguing about the effect of wind on fly balls, and then we found out that he ran a creepy web site? gives me the creeps just thinking about it....

Blackknightvball? AKA blacky? I believe he was one of the many trolls that Sonny loved to torture. He had that website full of pictures of female volleyball players and was always threatening to sue everyone because of them...

raul12
12-31-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Blackknightvball? AKA blacky? I believe he was one of the many trolls that Sonny loved to torture. He had that website full of pictures of female volleyball players and was always threatening to sue everyone because of them...

ah yes, that was it. btw, whatever happened to sonny? man, he could torture those trolls.

Damn badgers. First they get killed in b-ball last night by Alabama, and now getting beat by Auburn.

Frater Perdurabo
01-01-2004, 06:00 PM
Even if the Metrodome employees' manipulation of the fans was demonstrated to be "inconclusive" in affecting the trajectory or distance of the ball in flight, the fact that the employee attempted to alter the playing conditions in a way that unfairly gave the advantage to one team, and thought that his actions were having the desired effect, proves that the intent was to cheat. And intending to cheat is the same as cheating, IMHO.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-01-2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
Even if the Metrodome employees' manipulation of the fans was demonstrated to be "inconclusive" in affecting the trajectory or distance of the ball in flight, the fact that the employee attempted to alter the playing conditions in a way that unfairly gave the advantage to one team, and thought that his actions were having the desired effect, proves that the intent was to cheat. And intending to cheat is the same as cheating, IMHO.

Yeah, you tell 'em Frater! Those cheatin' sons of bitches! Clean living Minnesotans, my ass!!! :smile:

I think it's worth noting that the Twins have embraced the Hump Dome cheating controversy in their marketing campaign. A commercial this past season featured "game action" footage with a fat, sloven Twins fan playing the lead role. He's in his seat at the game, eating food and having a good time, when the opposing team's hitter hits a long fly ball. The Twins fan pulls a tiny little battery-operated personal fan from under his seat and holds it up to the playing field. Suddenly the ball holds up in the air and Torii Hunter runs over to make a sensational leaping catch at the outfield wall. The tag line: "Every fan matters."

It was a pretty funny commercial. I was impressed. :smile:

:gallas
"Pfft... I've got the little girl pretend-chanting 'O-E-O Magglio.' Nobody can top that!"

ma-gaga
01-02-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Suddenly the ball holds up in the air and Torii Hunter runs over to make a sensational leaping catch at the outfield wall. The tag line: "Every fan matters."

It was a pretty funny commercial. I was impressed. :smile:


That highlight was C.Lee's shot. For what it's worth, the Twins gave out little tiny fans (like the commercial) at a couple of games this year, but they were too cheap to spring for the AA battery to run it.

Or maybe by not giving out the battery it doesn't technically count as cheating. But I'm going with too cheap.

They have the other side of the equation covered as well. They have a radio ad, talking about Einstein and gravity. Asking fans to show up to add just a little more mass to the outfield seats to help 'pull' the ball out of the park. They take a radio clip of one of the Twins outfielders hitting a deep fly ball, and it just barely clears the fence thanks to that EXTRA dome dog consumed by another fat slob. "Every fan counts."

Genius.

boog_alou
01-02-2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
They have the other side of the equation covered as well. They have a radio ad, talking about Einstein and gravity. Asking fans to show up to add just a little more mass to the outfield seats to help 'pull' the ball out of the park. They take a radio clip of one of the Twins outfielders hitting a deep fly ball, and it just barely clears the fence thanks to that EXTRA dome dog consumed by another fat slob. "Every fan counts."

Genius.

The Twins are doing a good job of making fun of this non-story. Sure, every rival of the Twins would like to think that these fans make a difference. However, there is NO evidence to support this. I have been to at least 30 games in that horrible dome and I have NEVER felt a breeze, except when walking out of the dome and the difference in air pressure sucks/blows you out the door.

Unless and until I hear someone with real expertise on the subject speak to the matter, I have no reason to believe that the fans being on or off, aids or detracts from the flight of batted balls.

Iwritecode
01-02-2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
That highlight was C.Lee's shot. For what it's worth, the Twins gave out little tiny fans (like the commercial) at a couple of games this year, but they were too cheap to spring for the AA battery to run it.

Or maybe by not giving out the battery it doesn't technically count as cheating. But I'm going with too cheap.

Wasn't there a story about fans throwing batteries at a player on the field at one time?

I'm thinking it had something to do with Chuck Knoblauch...

Iwritecode
01-02-2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
The Twins are doing a good job of making fun of this non-story. Sure, every rival of the Twins would like to think that these fans make a difference. However, there is NO evidence to support this. I have been to at least 30 games in that horrible dome and I have NEVER felt a breeze, except when walking out of the dome and the difference in air pressure sucks/blows you out the door.

Unless and until I hear someone with real expertise on the subject speak to the matter, I have no reason to believe that the fans being on or off, aids or detracts from the flight of batted balls.

Just read the article ma-gaga linked in the 23rd post in this thread. The players on the field even talked about feeling a breeze. Plus, they were able to recreate the situation at least once and there was a difference of 3 feet either way when the fans were blowing in or out.

It would be interesting to see the actual results of the tests they did. They don't go into a whole lot of detail.

boog_alou
01-02-2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Wasn't there a story about fans throwing batteries at a player on the field at one time?

I'm thinking it had something to do with Chuck Knoblauch...
Yeah, but I think it was hot dogs. (Seriously) There were a bunch of 18 year old jerks in the rows immediately behind the left field wall and it was like dollar hot dog night or something, and they threw hot dogs, beer and crap like that at Knobby.

Iwritecode
01-02-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
Yeah, but I think it was hot dogs. (Seriously) There were a bunch of 18 year old jerks in the rows immediately behind the left field wall and it was like dollar hot dog night or something, and they threw hot dogs, beer and crap like that at Knobby.

Wasn't there a story at one time (maybe not necessarily in Minnesota) of fans throwing batteries though?

boog_alou
01-02-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Just read the article ma-gaga linked in the 23rd post in this thread. The players on the field even talked about feeling a breeze. Plus, they were able to recreate the situation at least once and there was a difference of 3 feet either way when the fans were blowing in or out.

It would be interesting to see the actual results of the tests they did. They don't go into a whole lot of detail.
First, I don't exactly trust what opponents on the field said they felt and didn't feel from time to time. That is the worst kind of anecdotal evidence.

And, I find it interesting that you referred to one "test" in which the fans were found to affect the flight of the ball, and neglected the Univ. of Minnesota professor's analysis that such air currents should not affect the flight of the ball.

There was one other thing I found interesting which I don't believe anyone on this thread has mentioned. The only information about anyone doing this intentional directing of air fans and turning them off and on was this one employee who worked there from 1982 to 1995. Is there any reason to believe that anyone at the Dome has done this since? There is certainly no evidence of an organization-wide conspiracy. This guy says he did it, but he didn't say he was directed to do it by Twins officials.

Again, there is little evidence that this ever helped the Twins. And there is no evidence that it is being done now. Much ado about nothing.

boog_alou
01-02-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Wasn't there a story at one time (maybe not necessarily in Minnesota) of fans throwing batteries though?
Happens all the time at Mets and Yankee games.

TornLabrum
01-02-2004, 03:00 PM
The first battery throwing incident I remember was when fans somewhere threw batteries at Dave Parker, who I think was still with the Pirates at the time.

Iwritecode
01-02-2004, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by boog_alou
And, I find it interesting that you referred to one "test" in which the fans were found to affect the flight of the ball, and neglected the Univ. of Minnesota professor's analysis that such air currents should not affect the flight of the ball.

I think the fact that they got it to happen once is quite interesting. The professor also said that it's possible, just not probable.

Originally posted by boog_alou
There was one other thing I found interesting which I don't believe anyone on this thread has mentioned. The only information about anyone doing this intentional directing of air fans and turning them off and on was this one employee who worked there from 1982 to 1995. Is there any reason to believe that anyone at the Dome has done this since? There is certainly no evidence of an organization-wide conspiracy. This guy says he did it, but he didn't say he was directed to do it by Twins officials.

Is there really any reason to believe that anyone hasn't done this since? Especially considering it's already been done once? There's no evidence either way.

Originally posted by boog_alou
Again, there is little evidence that this ever helped the Twins. And there is no evidence that it is being done now. Much ado about nothing.

The last line says it all. There really isn't solid proof either way that this is or isn't being done right now. It's pointless to argue either side...

ma-gaga
01-02-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Wasn't there a story at one time (maybe not necessarily in Minnesota) of fans throwing batteries though?

I think the batteries throwing episode happened in Philly. Well, scary... I just did a google search (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=throwing+batteries+onto+the+field) and there's a ton of stories. I didn't see any battery throwing story in Minnesota history. Oakland has had a pretty bad history of being stupid. Some idiot (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/6280335.htm) launched fireworks off the upper deck into the lower. I remember the highlights of the players 'ducking'. I think Cleveland had a nasty football incident last year.

There's an ugly incident of someone throwing a whiskey bottle and cracking a referee's head at the 1975 NFC championship (http://www.snopes.com/sports/football/tarkenton.asp) game after the 'hail mary' pass. But that was a long time ago...

MRKARNO
01-03-2004, 12:31 AM
Well, our groundskeeper, Roger Brossard isnt known to play fair either

PaleHoseGeorge
01-03-2004, 09:20 AM
For the record, I don't think 3 feet is an insignificant difference. Unlike tilted baselines or water-logged infield grass, only one team gets the benefit. It definitely makes a difference when only one team hits it 3 feet further.

Furthermore, what do we know about this professor's methodology? Is he saying it is 3 feet on average? What kind of fly balls did the professor include? Did he lump in line shots and shallow pop flies along with the roof-scraping bombs? It seems to me a ball traveling higher, longer and further in the air would be *much* more affected by artificial wind speeds than other types of "fly" balls. What exactly *is* a fly ball? The "3 feet" finding really doesn't tell us much, does it?

I'm not saying the University of Minnesota shouldn't be capable of making fact-based conclusions. However I would feel a whole lot better about who was stating these conclusions if the "expert" was based someplace besides Minneapolis or the baseball commissioner's office. Where is the impartial study by a non-Twins fan? The UM study is flawed for that reason alone.

We can all agree on one thing: the Hump Dome is the worst ballpark for baseball in the major leagues. The pool table grounders, trampoline bounces, and ceiling colored white like a baseball give that pathetic monstrosity its distinction with or without the cheating they do with the ventilation fans.


P.S.
The Twins suck.

:gardenhire
"See! See! I told you! I told you! They don't respect us at all!!!"

ode to veeck
01-03-2004, 11:47 AM
I'm not saying the University of Minnesota shouldn't be capable of making fact-based conclusions.

Turning on geek, propellor head mode for a second, I was also a little skeptical of the quoted study as well, though like George, I'll admit to not examining it in detail. Anyone here remember many many years back when the "experts' used to try to tell us curve balls didn't really curve that much?

I'll leave aside the fact it was a home town academic who provided the analysis, but would focus scrutiny on the variety of trajectories, initial velocity, and especially spin of the ball used in such an analysis.

Sure that Dick Allen shot that nearly takes the infielder's ear off as it screams by as a rope with no arc over the wall or the Harmon Killebrew line drive off the center of the exploding scoreboard are still gonna go out, but there's a lot of lofty balls someone gets a little under with a lot of backspin that my ancient experience as an outfielder tells me move a lot with not a whole lot of wind.

Three feet is a huge advantage over the course of a season or even a home series in some cases, even more if some types of fly balls are even more affected.

PS the Twins really suck, and needed the unatural help of their HVAC system and Manual's Paniccia brain farts to back into the playoffs---the only rational explanations I can come up with