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phaedrus
12-28-2003, 05:50 PM
A friend of mine is deeply involved in the plumber's union who has been the sponsor for the shower for several years. I saw him over Christmas and as the conversation turned to the Sox he mentioned that the union was pulling their sponsorship of the shower this year and that the Sox indicated they were going to remove it. Apparently some of the rennovations in the outfield were going to change it's location and make it less prominent, but more importantly Uncle Jerry raised the sponsorship fee. I was surprised to hear how much that cost the Union every year and don't blame them for pulling it. Another example of Jerry putting $ before tradition.

so let the rant begin...

This is just more wood on the fire for me. I have a full season package for 4 seats and the price tag this year is pretty steep. Just like many of you I'm so sick of seeing this franchise do things like this that destroy its value. The real value that Jerry and the board have is the value of the Sox brand - that thing that makes fools like us come back year after year. It's what the Trib understands so well about the flubs and their fans and I get furious when I see an astute businessman like JR mismanage the franchise so badly. The Sox have wonderful traditions and former players that make up so much of the value - people like Joe Jackson, Nellie Fox, Little Louie - and a ton of little things like Nancy and the shower and Harry Carry - we all have our favorites.

Fans love a team because of these traditions, memories they have from the past and the dreams they have of future experiences. Over the past 20 years the Sox have carelessly thrown away those memories and tried to hold on to those dreams as cheaply as possible - and yet they continue to ask us to come and believe.

Well it gets harder and harder every year to keep believing. My daughter told me this morning that she wanted to go see the Sox play baseball today and I explained to her that they play again in the spring. We both got excited talking about going to the park and having a hot dog and watching the fireworks - and that's what I'm looking forward to doing. But I can't help but feel like JR and the Sox are just going to keep giving away my memories and that's not something I look forward to.

Sorry this was so long - I feel much better now. I need a drink...

RedPinStripes
12-28-2003, 06:48 PM
God forbid if there's something in that park with no one's name on it.

munchman33
12-28-2003, 06:50 PM
I've gotta disagree guys. If there's something in the ballpark that's costing money, but not making money, they have every right to shut it down.

They're running a business. The sooner we all realize this the easier it will be to accept such trivial decisions.

Daver
12-28-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
I've gotta disagree guys. If there's something in the ballpark that's costing money, but not making money, they have every right to shut it down.

They're running a business. The sooner we all realize this the easier it will be to accept such trivial decisions.


What do you think it costs to run the shower in LF?


My guess would be about three bucks per game,tops.

Viva Magglio
12-28-2003, 06:59 PM
Of course, we all know how much Uncle Jerry loves organized labor. Keep that in mind too.

munchman33
12-28-2003, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Daver
What do you think it costs to run the shower in LF?


My guess would be about three bucks per game,tops.

But space is money too. Think of what could be put there that could make more money.

Daver
12-28-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
But space is money too. Think of what could be put there that could make more money.

Yeah you could put three seats in that five foot wide space occupied by the shower.

The Sox will spend more in labor to remove it than they will realize in profit over three seasons,while also removing a ballpark tradition that dates back to the sixties,there is some sound marketing thought at work.

This franchise needs an enema.

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-28-2003, 07:28 PM
that sucks. the shower was great for those really hot and sunny days. I wonder if the silly rain room will still be there next season

duke of dorwood
12-28-2003, 07:41 PM
Maybe my next dump in the left field latrine will have to be sponsored

:reinsy

So will the tissue you use

PaleHoseGeorge
12-28-2003, 07:46 PM
Maybe FlyingSock.com can sponsor the showerhead? Of course I'll insist on a giant banner mounted above the shower:

"White Sox Interactive -- getting soaked along with all the other totally biased Sox Fans for 23 years now!"

:smile:

Daver
12-28-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


"White Sox Interactive -- getting soaked along with all the other totally biased Sox Fans for 23 years now!"




:gallas


You might be on to something there Mr. Bova,when can we expect the check?


:reinsy

Rob,make sure you make it clear that we a installing a meter on the showerhead,and they will be responsible for the water bill above and beyond the sponsorship fee.

RKMeibalane
12-28-2003, 08:01 PM
They must be trying to find space for the Jerry Manuel statue.

Frater Perdurabo
12-28-2003, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Maybe FlyingSock.com can sponsor the showerhead? Of course I'll insist on a giant banner mounted above the shower:

"White Sox Interactive -- getting soaked along with all the other totally biased Sox Fans for 23 years now!"

:smile:

George, since you did not post your suggestion in teal, I will assume that you are at least somewhat serious about this proposition. If you are serious, I'd help to get the sponsorship funded. It would be tremendous publicity for WSI, especially if it meant a blurb about WSI in the media. How can we make it happen? Is anyone willing to contact Sox management?

LuvSox
12-28-2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by munchman33
I've gotta disagree guys. If there's something in the ballpark that's costing money, but not making money, they have every right to shut it down.

They're running a business. The sooner we all realize this the easier it will be to accept such trivial decisions.

So you agree with management when they treat the fans like dung. As trivial as it may seem, that shower is part of our history. Maybe you haven't noticed, but the Sox don't embrace their history very well. If it was up to me it would be more visible to the televison audience.

Daver
12-28-2003, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
George, since you did not post your suggestion in teal, I will assume that you are at least somewhat serious about this proposition. If you are serious, I'd help to get the sponsorship funded. It would be tremendous publicity for WSI, especially if it meant a blurb about WSI in the media. How can we make it happen? Is anyone willing to contact Sox management?

We get our share of media,and White Sox management would probably rather shut us down than give us advertising space,no matter whether we were paying or not.

Trust me when I tell you George was being tongue in cheek.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-28-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
George, since you did not post your suggestion in teal, I will assume that you are at least somewhat serious about this proposition. If you are serious, I'd help to get the sponsorship funded. It would be tremendous publicity for WSI, especially if it meant a blurb about WSI in the media. How can we make it happen? Is anyone willing to contact Sox management?

Something tells me the Sox are expecting a bit more sponsorship money than what our humble website could afford. :smile:

Can we purchase the home version of the game instead? I'm pretty sure Daver could hook us up with some slightly used showerheads and drain covers.


:cool:

anewman35
12-28-2003, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Daver
The Sox will spend more in labor to remove it than they will realize in profit over three seasons,while also removing a ballpark tradition that dates back to the sixties,there is some sound marketing thought at work.


It's only been there, in this ballpark, in that location, for, what, a few years now? It's not like it's something generations of White Sox fans have grown up with.

That said, removing it would be pretty silly. But I'm not going to worry about it until I actually see it happen, not just go off a rumor. Well, I'm not going to worry about it at all, but that's besides the point.

I can just see it now, though - people will say they aren't going to the park because the shower is gone. Note that I didn't put that in teal.

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-29-2003, 12:28 AM
You know, if this does happen the Tribune column writers and Moronotti will have a field day on it. They'll talk about how great it was and it's the reason why no one goes to the games

doublem23
12-29-2003, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
You know, if this does happen the Tribune column writers and Moronotti will have a field day on it. They'll talk about how great it was and it's the reason why no one goes to the games

Er, I doubt that.

:moron
There was a shower in left field? I don't know, I don't ever go to the games, or watch them on TV. I just sit at home and tell myself how great of a guy I am.

ChiWhiteSox1337
12-29-2003, 01:39 AM
Excellent point. It just seems like the writers like to bash the sox for things like this that have nothing to do with the product on the feel. Other than that the costs of keeping the shower is taking money away from the payroll to spend on players

red faber
12-29-2003, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
I've gotta disagree guys. If there's something in the ballpark that's costing money, but not making money, they have every right to shut it down.

They're running a business. The sooner we all realize this the easier it will be to accept such trivial decisions.

oh give me a break!!!!!

it's not like the sox are going broke maintaining that shower!!!!!

besides it's a comiskey park tradition!!!!!!!!!

if this is true,i will lose even more respect for reinsdork.

i don't have a problem with trivial decisions.
what i do have a problem with is stupid decisions!!!!!

StillMissOzzie
12-29-2003, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Maybe my next dump in the left field latrine will have to be sponsored

:reinsy

So will the tissue you use

Assuming that it won't be BYO?

MarqSox
12-29-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
I've gotta disagree guys. If there's something in the ballpark that's costing money, but not making money, they have every right to shut it down.

They're running a business. The sooner we all realize this the easier it will be to accept such trivial decisions.
That's absolutely asinine.

What's next? Are they going to start charging admission to the bathrooms? Wait, pretend I didn't say that, they might take me seriously.

Hangar18
12-29-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
I've gotta disagree guys. If there's something in the ballpark that's costing money, but not making money, they have every right to shut it down.

They're running a business. The sooner we all realize this the easier it will be to accept such trivial decisions.

OK, but how does one determine how "productive" a Shower is vs something like.....Ivy?

CubKilla
12-29-2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by red faber
if this is true,i will lose even more respect for reinsdork.

At least you still have some respect for Reinsdorf. I have none.

Having said that, while I never used the shower, removing it would be S.O.P for this sorry Organization. Like someone earlier said, is there anything inside USCF that doesn't have to have some sort of sponsorship on it? Jesus Christ.....

munchman33
12-29-2003, 10:40 AM
Jeez, I didn't mean to cause a stir.

All I'm saying is its not like that shower is drawing people to the ballpark. Perhaps something else in its place could, like a small arcade for children, I don't know.

But if you want to get mad at someone for this, get mad at the people who don't come to games and force management to both cost cut and search for new streams of revenue.

It's becoming so passe to target management when it comes to people not showing up. If they were truly fans, they would come regardless. I do.

Dadawg_77
12-29-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
Jeez, I didn't mean to cause a stir.

All I'm saying is its not like that shower is drawing people to the ballpark. Perhaps something else in its place could, like a small arcade for children, I don't know.

But if you want to get mad at someone for this, get mad at the people who don't come to games and force management to both cost cut and search for new streams of revenue.

It's becoming so passe to target management when it comes to people not showing up. If they were truly fans, they would come regardless. I do.

Any business which doesn't attract customers, is at fault for the lack customers. It isn't the customers fault for not buying the product.

CubKilla
12-29-2003, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
If they were truly fans, they would come regardless.

Then the Cubs really do have the best fans in baseball.

I consider myself a "true fan," but if Reinsdorf is going to budget himself, then I am going to budget myself from now on. When he spends, I'll spend. Until then and from this point forward, he can go pound sand up his tightwad ***.

voodoochile
12-29-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Daver
What do you think it costs to run the shower in LF?


My guess would be about three bucks per game,tops.


:reinsy
"Good Lord, man! Do you realize that is almost $250 a year? What do you think I am made out of money? It's all the plumber union's fault."

Honestly, this is stinking hilarious. Is there anything at all this franchise can do right? This maybe he cheapest, most un-fan friendly thing they have ever done when you account for how little it costs to maintain this tradition. As Hangar half suggests in his post, can you imagine the flubbies taking down the ivy because it costs to much to water and prune?

Pure and simple this is downright stupid. Un-be-****-ing-lieve-able...

voodoochile
12-29-2003, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
But if you want to get mad at someone for this, get mad at the people who don't come to games and force management to both cost cut and search for new streams of revenue.

It's becoming so passe to target management when it comes to people not showing up. If they were truly fans, they would come regardless. I do.

JR is that you or are you just bucking for a job in the Sox PR department? Why is it always the fans who have to make the first move? When are the Sox going to bite the bullet and say, "Hey, we really can't afford this, but we are going to do it anyway." It would be nice if they would do it with the players they put on the field for once, but I'll take a showerhead if that is all I can get.

Besides, if the Sox have to cut the shower because they honestly cannot afford it, then there are far bigger problems with this franchise than can be solved by the current ownership. I mean there was no problem running it in 1975 when the team was drawing a lot less fans.

This is not defensible and the media is going to have a field day. Trust me, this practiaclly writes the next Moronotti column for him...

jabrch
12-29-2003, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Daver
White Sox management would probably rather shut us down than give us advertising space,no matter whether we were paying or not.

Does their dislike for WSI exceed their like for sponsorship? Interesting. It might be like the immovable object vs the irresistable force.

Baby Fisk
12-29-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
Jeez, I didn't mean to cause a stir.

All I'm saying is its not like that shower is drawing people to the ballpark. Perhaps something else in its place could, like a small arcade for children, I don't know.

KC's got a friggin waterworks in centrefield and JR can't spurge on a showerhead? Pathetic.

As for the arcade idea, check out Comerica Park first. It's got an entire carnival set aside on one concourse. Mini ferris wheel, kiddie rides, etc. The more I think about it, the more I hate it. Baseball parks are for baseball, not for spending three hours on a tiger carousel. Anyone else have thoughts on the Comerica Carny?

Hangar18
12-29-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
:reinsy
"Good Lord, man! Do you realize that is almost $250 a year? What do you think I am made out of money? It's all the plumber union's fault."

Honestly, this is stinking hilarious. Is there anything at all this franchise can do right? This maybe he cheapest, most un-fan friendly thing they have ever done when you account for how little it costs to maintain this tradition. As Hangar half suggests in his post, can you imagine the flubbies taking down the ivy because it costs to much to water and prune?

Pure and simple this is downright stupid. Un-be-****-ing-lieve-able...

Ive said this before ....mostly as a Joke, but WHAT IF??
What if JR bought the Cubs instead of the White Sox? Year 2,
he wouldve put Giant Billboards to "block" the views of the fields from the Rooftop Owners. He wouldve Taken them on....and Won. Yes....the cost of keeping the ivy up, from Pruning to Watering woudlve cost too much, and wouldve been taken down
in favor of a Padded Wall with Advertising on it!

KingXerxes
12-29-2003, 11:17 AM
I really don't see how anybody can be surprised at this. The shower was an ersatz holdover from the old Comiskey Park - and if there's one thing I'm certain of - it's that Reinsdorf will do everything possible to distance himself from any vestige of a pre-Reinsdorf White Sox Organization.

I wouldn't be surprised that if in the next few years he doesn't change the team's name to some sort of MTVish "Chicago Force" or "Chicago Shock" - it would be right up his alley.

:reinsy

"Tradition schmadition - White Sox was a tired old name anyway. Oh - due to the new signage and uniforms from the name change, we're raising ticket prices."

Baby Fisk
12-29-2003, 11:24 AM
Please please please, no one say "Chicago Rhinos".

:reinsy
[*visions of new marketing dancing in his head*]

"hmm...We could put a curly "R" on the caps..."

anewman35
12-29-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
This is not defensible and the media is going to have a field day. Trust me, this practiaclly writes the next Moronotti column for him...

You know what? I bet now, that we've brought this RUMOR to everybody's attention, people will write about it. But you know what? I almost promise you that if somebody hadn't posted this here, very few people would have noticed the difference. Maybe I'm wrong, but at least for me, the shower falls in the catagory of "nice thing, but I don't really care". I've probably not once ever thought about the shower except with I was looking at the shower. It's like the thing about them removing retired numbers from the club facing. Is it silly? Yes. Is it stupid? Probably, yes. But did one single less person go to a game because of it? I highly doubt it.

This whole thing is as silly as, say, caring that the Sox may or may not have fired the bullpen catcher. Oh, wait, we already did that one, didn't we?

joecrede
12-29-2003, 11:31 AM
I hope they do remove the shower. I'm enjoying the uproar here.

Baby Fisk
12-29-2003, 11:33 AM
Seeing as there's no player moves to discuss, we've been reduced to roaring over a shower. That's even worse. :(:

ewokpelts
12-29-2003, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
:reinsy
"Good Lord, man! Do you realize that is almost $250 a year? What do you think I am made out of money? It's all the plumber union's fault."



Let's not forget that they rebuilt the shower for 2003 to match the decor of teh rest of teh concourse....it will cost more to tear it down and re-deco the empty space.....idiots...and i didnt even use the damm thing!

joecrede
12-29-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
Seeing as there's no player moves to discuss, we've been reduced to roaring over a shower. That's even worse. :(:

Just a hunch but I think even if the Sox led the league in player moves this off-season outrage over Reinsdorf removing the shower would still be expressed here. :smile:

anewman35
12-29-2003, 11:40 AM
Maybe JR is going to remove the shower, then bring it back during a special "Return of the Shower Night"! That'll sell out for sure! He's just that devious, you know!

:reinsy

"Half price tickets, of course! I'd rather not sell any full price tickets at all, I don't want to pay rent!"

Baby Fisk
12-29-2003, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Just a hunch but I think even if the Sox led the league in player moves this off-season outrage over Reinsdorf removing the shower would still be expressed here. :smile:
True. I don't think we need a show of hands for "Who Wants To See Jerry Reinsdorf Added To The Axis Of Evil", do we? :cool:

"Return of the Shower Night" could be combined one weekend with "Return of Carlton Fisk Night". Instead of a shower, Carlton just gets hosed again...

Tekijawa
12-29-2003, 11:57 AM
Maybe we're trading the Shower for Randy Johnson and a bullpen PTBNL!!!

anewman35
12-29-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
Maybe we're trading the Shower for Randy Johnson and a bullpen PTBNL!!!

Yeah, but then we'd just trade Randy Johnson to the Yankees for a bathtub and two minor league toliets

ode to veeck
12-29-2003, 01:20 PM
I really don't see how anybody can be surprised at this. The shower was an ersatz holdover from the old Comiskey Park - and if there's one thing I'm certain of - it's that Reinsdorf will do everything possible to distance himself from any vestige of a pre-Reinsdorf White Sox Organization.

Not surprized one bit, its just one more in a continuous stream of idiodic moves by the most pathetic sports management team in Chicago ...

SpringfldFan
12-29-2003, 01:29 PM
I have several times anticipated taking my 21 month old daughter under that shower. She loves water - *loves* it. She runs around our house with an priceless grin and a water bottle all the time. If she were exposed to the Comiskey shower she would shriek for joy and laugh in that way that only kids can laugh when the precious moment is the only thing in the world to them. I know she would also get an uncontrolled ornery laugh as she watches me duck under the shower and gasping as it hits me...

None of that will happen now - and people want to call this trivial?


To look at the bigger picture, though, in the bookstore I saw a new Sox book about memories of old Comiskey park and its fans (blue collar, honest, and of course with some eccectricity) and it describes it best. I don't recall the name of the book - perhaps someone here does. Anyway, if you find it and flip through the pictures, you will re-experience all that made the "old" Sox what they were and what we cherished about them. If you are young, you may not understand the allure, but you will be struck at how different that time period was as far as the Sox experience goes. The shower is one of the few remaining pieces of the mosaic that Sox tradition encompassed, just like Andy the Clown, bleacher bums, Harry & Jimmy, disco demolition, shorts, Minnie playing at 60 years old, and on and on. Now all that is disappearing, replaced with canned sound effects and scoreboard pizza races. Before long Nancy will be prohibited from playing "Nah nah nah nah, hey hey, goodbye" because it is a little too rough edged in this new goodie goodie "warm fuzzy" US Cellular field.

Oh, but this is all trival isn't it?

Iwritecode
12-29-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
It's only been there, in this ballpark, in that location, for, what, a few years now? It's not like it's something generations of White Sox fans have grown up with.

That may be true but it's still the same shower head from Old Comiskey. It still allows them to keep some tradition from the old ballpark.

Besides, it's not always about the current crop of fans that grew up watching the team in the old ballpark. There's always a new generation of fans coming in that have never seen the old place and would like to grow up with different traditions.

A perfect example: Last year I took my two older daughters to their very first MLB game. They were 5 & 6 at the time. They're just starting to get interested in the game and it was fairly warm that day so I took them over to the shower and let them try it out. They thought it was pretty cool. Just a few months later, one of them walks up to me and says "I want to go to the baseball game again and stand in the shower. "

She's five years old and one of her first memories at her first baseball game is the shower. Now they want to take it out?

ode to veeck
12-29-2003, 01:35 PM
The shower is one of the few remaining pieces of the mosaic that Sox tradition encompassed, just like Andy the Clown, bleacher bums, Harry & Jimmy, disco demolition, shorts, Minnie playing at 60 years old,

Ironically, I hear Ribbie and Rhubarb were assigned to physically remove the shower apparatus

Iwritecode
12-29-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by SpringfldFan
I have several times anticipated taking my 21 month old daughter under that shower. She loves water - *loves* it. She runs around our house with an priceless grin and a water bottle all the time. If she were exposed to the Comiskey shower she would shriek for joy and laugh in that way that only kids can laugh when the precious moment is the only thing in the world to them. I know she would also get an uncontrolled ornery laugh as she watches me duck under the shower and gasping as it hits me...

None of that will happen now - and people want to call this trivial?


Exactly...

Realist
12-29-2003, 01:44 PM
I was 12 years old during the summer of '77 and I spent many a hot summer day in that shower at old Comiskey that year. The first time Reinsdorf removed the shower from Comiskey I was disgusted and felt like a part of my youth had been ripped from me.

I understand that the game is played on the field, but to me the thing that makes baseball the amazing sport that it is is the ENTIRE experience of going to the game. It's the smell of hot dogs, the green of the grass, the summer's air and for many Sox fans it was hitting the shower on hot summer days.

I'll never forget the first time I walked past the old shower head after it had been reinstalled at New Comiskey. It was like that little part of my youth that had been ripped from me had been replaced. I grinned from ear to ear and my heart raced.

I have to admit that I never allowed myself the pleasure of cooling off under the shower again after it was reinstalled, but I loved knowing that it was back. I often threatened to jump under it again but all this business of turning into an adult has left me with way too much crap in my pockets that I don't want wet.

Yet again the White Sox have taken me on another emotional rollercoaster. *big sigh* :(:

SSN721
12-29-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
Please please please, no one say "Chicago Rhinos".

:reinsy
[*visions of new marketing dancing in his head*]

"hmm...We could put a curly "R" on the caps..."

Then do we get to see Al Pacino as the manager come into the Cell a few times a year? It might almost be worth it, Pacino and Guillen getting in a shouting match. Lot of marketing potential there. :D:

anewman35
12-29-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by SpringfldFan
I have several times anticipated taking my 21 month old daughter under that shower. She loves water - *loves* it. She runs around our house with an priceless grin and a water bottle all the time. If she were exposed to the Comiskey shower she would shriek for joy and laugh in that way that only kids can laugh when the precious moment is the only thing in the world to them. I know she would also get an uncontrolled ornery laugh as she watches me duck under the shower and gasping as it hits me...

None of that will happen now - and people want to call this trivial?


It's amazingly trivial. It matters to YOU, your daughter couldn't care less. Sure, she might like it, but would she miss it? Unlikely. Take her to the rain room, what's the difference?

I long dreamed of walking up to row 29 with my children, and now I never can! I hate this franchise!

anewman35
12-29-2003, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
She's five years old and one of her first memories at her first baseball game is the shower. Now they want to take it out?

What if her first game was the Gamboa game, and now she wants to see people attack a coach every game? Or she was at a game where the Sox hit 5 homers, and now she says she won't be happy unless they do that every time?

Just because something is memorable to a kid doesn't make it good...(not that there's anything wrong with the shower, but, come on, this is a silly arguement for keeping it).

On a semi-related note, anybody remember the electronic White Sox trivia game booths they used to have around the park? When did those disappear? I liked those, a lot more than I ever did the shower.

anewman35
12-29-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Realist
I was 12 years old during the summer of '77 and I spent many a hot summer day in that shower at old Comiskey that year. The first time Reinsdorf removed the shower from Comiskey I was disgusted and felt like a part of my youth had been ripped from me.

Dude, if your biggest problem is that your favorite baseball team removed a shower, I think your life is in pretty good shape.

Please be honest here: before this thread, has anybody ever spent more than a few minutes in their life thinking about the damn shower?

munchman33
12-29-2003, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by SpringfldFan
I have several times anticipated taking my 21 month old daughter under that shower. She loves water - *loves* it. She runs around our house with an priceless grin and a water bottle all the time. If she were exposed to the Comiskey shower she would shriek for joy and laugh in that way that only kids can laugh when the precious moment is the only thing in the world to them. I know she would also get an uncontrolled ornery laugh as she watches me duck under the shower and gasping as it hits me...

None of that will happen now - and people want to call this trivial?


To look at the bigger picture, though, in the bookstore I saw a new Sox book about memories of old Comiskey park and its fans (blue collar, honest, and of course with some eccectricity) and it describes it best. I don't recall the name of the book - perhaps someone here does. Anyway, if you find it and flip through the pictures, you will re-experience all that made the "old" Sox what they were and what we cherished about them. If you are young, you may not understand the allure, but you will be struck at how different that time period was as far as the Sox experience goes. The shower is one of the few remaining pieces of the mosaic that Sox tradition encompassed, just like Andy the Clown, bleacher bums, Harry & Jimmy, disco demolition, shorts, Minnie playing at 60 years old, and on and on. Now all that is disappearing, replaced with canned sound effects and scoreboard pizza races. Before long Nancy will be prohibited from playing "Nah nah nah nah, hey hey, goodbye" because it is a little too rough edged in this new goodie goodie "warm fuzzy" US Cellular field.

Oh, but this is all trival isn't it?

And this is what it is really about. The real sox fans, the ones who remember these things and love the nostalgia, are not going to the games anymore, for whatever reason. At least not in the numbers that Uncle Jerry would want. Therefore, he has to reject us, and target a new audience, one that cares less about baseball and traditions, and more about what's fun outside the box.

Paulwny
12-29-2003, 02:37 PM
The shower may return after one of JR's bean counters figures the take if it's coin operated.

joecrede
12-29-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Please be honest here: before this thread, has anybody ever spent more than a few minutes in their life thinking about the damn shower?

During BP I'd sometimes take a glimpse at it and think how unbelievably out of place and sterile (an actual stall?) it looked.

Realist
12-29-2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Dude, if your biggest problem is that your favorite baseball team removed a shower, I think your life is in pretty good shape.


Yeah. I can't complain. :cool:

But, I did think about that shower more than a few minutes of my life. It was a big part of '77 for my brother and me. My mom's work had season tickets so my mom, dad, brother and me went to lots of games that summer. It was great family stuff.

Maybe I'm just being a little overlydramatic because of the holidays and the fact that my mom passed away last year and that shower reminds me of a much more innocent and carefree time of my life.

Tekijawa
12-29-2003, 02:50 PM
:reinsy


"Hey guys, I don't think you realize that this is the Unions Fault."

One Union takes our World Series away and another takes our Shower!!! If Jerry Manages to **** off the Nacho & Beer Union I'm out of here!

Let these Guys handle it from there
:sopranos

phaedrus
12-29-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Dude, if your biggest problem is that your favorite baseball team removed a shower, I think your life is in pretty good shape.

Please be honest here: before this thread, has anybody ever spent more than a few minutes in their life thinking about the damn shower?

You're totally missing the point of this thread - the shower isn't the problem - it's a symptom of the larger problem here. What other things have the Sox thrown away that were more important than this shower in the last 25 years? People/Things like Fisk and Harry - this is just one more on the pile. And yes it's much less significant but what does it cost him to leave it there? NOTHING - water's free in the city and the thing's already built. THAT is the problem.

anewman35
12-29-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by phaedrus
You're totally missing the point of this thread - the shower isn't the problem - it's a symptom of the larger problem here. What other things have the Sox thrown away that were more important than this shower in the last 25 years? People/Things like Fisk and Harry - this is just one more on the pile. And yes it's much less significant but what does it cost him to leave it there? NOTHING - water's free in the city and the thing's already built. THAT is the problem.

Well, lots of people here seem to be saying the shower is a huge problem. Anyway, though, maybe the issue is that people who have been Sox fans longer feel like nothing should ever change? I'm 23, have been a Sox fan since the mid-80s. To me, the shower is a complete non-issue, and I'm glad Harry Carry had nothing to do with the White Sox during my lifetime, what I heard of him (which quite possibly went downhill by the time I heard it) was pathetic.

Everything changes with time, traditions end all the time. I'm not saying there's any particular reason they should, they just do, and it's not worth your time and energy to fight every one. I'm sure there's people here who still think the Sox should be playing in Old Comiskey Park, because it was tradition. Me, I'd take the Cell any day.

Iwritecode
12-29-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
What if her first game was the Gamboa game, and now she wants to see people attack a coach every game? Or she was at a game where the Sox hit 5 homers, and now she says she won't be happy unless they do that every time?

OK, now you're just getting stupid. It's a PLACE she experienced during her first baseball game and expects it to be there the next time she visits. It wasn't an EVENT that happened while she was there.

There's a difference...

voodoochile
12-29-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
It's amazingly trivial. It matters to YOU, your daughter couldn't care less. Sure, she might like it, but would she miss it? Unlikely. Take her to the rain room, what's the difference?

I long dreamed of walking up to row 29 with my children, and now I never can! I hate this franchise!

yes, because row 29 has ALWAYS been a tradition for the Sox. I mean I can think of the generations of Sox fans who grew up thinking, "Row 29 is the coolest thing in the world. I can't wait to take my kids there."

You don't get it do you? This is exactly what is wrong with the decisions this managment team makes. They couldn't care less what their longest standing, loyalist, biggest spending customers want. Maybe it is SFF who is really damaged by this decision and his daughter is simply a vessel for that outrage. It still is a stick in the eye, or at least a good sized noogy to the noggin. It isn't just a damn shower head. The shower head is a symbol of everything that they do to prove we don't matter. And, bluntly speaking, for the price it is simply ludicrous to cause this much ill-will to their fanbase.

Iwritecode
12-29-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Everything changes with time, traditions end all the time. I'm not saying there's any particular reason they should, they just do, and it's not worth your time and energy to fight every one.

It's pretty pathetic when a tradition ends because they can no longer make any money off it when it doesn't cost them any money in the first place. It just defines what this organization is all about. How much money they can rake in while spending the least amount possible...

anewman35
12-29-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
OK, now you're just getting stupid. It's a PLACE she experienced during her first baseball game and expects it to be there the next time she visits. It wasn't an EVENT that happened while she was there.

There's a difference...

My point is, the shower is something that she might be able to do again. But couldn't her first memory just as easilly been an event that she really liked? You wouldn't be complaining if she could never have that specific memory again, would you?

She'll get over the lack of a shower, I promise.

Do people still wonder why Sox fans are seen as complainers?

anewman35
12-29-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
It just defines what this organization is all about. How much money they can rake in while spending the least amount possible...

That pretty much defines what any buisness is about, doesn't it? Any successful buisness, anyways.

Iwritecode
12-29-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
That pretty much defines what any buisness is about, doesn't it? Any successful buisness, anyways.

Yea, it's too bad baseball is supposed to be a sport...

voodoochile
12-29-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
That pretty much defines what any buisness is about, doesn't it? Any successful buisness, anyways.

Would you say the Sox are a successful business?

Do you think they could be run better?

You are saying this should be a non-issue and to be honest I haven't read anyone saying they were going to less games because the shower is gone, but people are definitely wondering what is the purpose of taking it out?

anewman35
12-29-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
The shower head is a symbol of everything that they do to prove we don't matter. And, bluntly speaking, for the price it is simply ludicrous to cause this much ill-will to their fanbase.

You know what? You don't matter. I don't matter. None of us matter one bit to the team. The difference between us is that you seem to think that they're violating some contract they've made with you, while I realize and accept that they only want me for my money. They are a buisness, after all.

I'm quite sure that nobody in the Sox organization thought this would piss off so many people, because IT"S A DAMN SHOWER, WHO THE HELL CARES? If any of them read this, though, I'd think they'll reconsider, because I fully agree that it's silly to take it out and especially silly to upset people over something so stupid.

Of course, that's assuming that the removal is even true. All we're basing this on is third-hand information, isn't it possible that the message got jumbled up somewhere? Ever play "telephone"?

Iwritecode
12-29-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
My point is, the shower is something that she might be able to do again. But couldn't her first memory just as easilly been an event that she really liked? You wouldn't be complaining if she could never have that specific memory again, would you?

She'll get over the lack of a shower, I promise.

Do people still wonder why Sox fans are seen as complainers?

Well she also got to run the bases that day and got a few autographs from the players but she was really too young to fully understand what that meant. It's the shower that she remembers and that fact will never change. Now, the next time we go and she asks to go see it, I'll have to tell her it's not there anymore because the owner of the team is a cheap, greedy bastard that doesn't care about the fans but only about money.

Maybe she would have been better off if her first memory was a Frank Thomas homerun or something like that. Then it wouldn't be something she would expect everytime she went.

God knows fans shouldn't expect semi-permenant fixtures like a statue of MJ or ivy growing on the wall or a plaque to be there every time they show up...

anewman35
12-29-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Would you say the Sox are a successful business?

Do you think they could be run better?

You are saying this should be a non-issue and to be honest I haven't read anyone saying they were going to less games because the shower is gone, but people are definitely wondering what is the purpose of taking it out?

Well, everybody thinks JR is raking in the profits, right? If that's so, aren't they a successful buisness?

And the thing that annoys me so much about Showergate is that people are getting so amazingly upset, and the shower hasn't even went anywhere yet. I agree taking it out is pretty silly, but I can't understand why people get so upset over some third hand rumor.

I heard from my friend's uncle's neighbor's friend (who ran into JR at a Bulls game) that the Sox are going to replace Gene Honda with Chip Carey! I can't believe they are going to do that! Aren't you all outraged?

anewman35
12-29-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
It's the shower that she remembers and that fact will never change. Now, the next time we go and she asks to go see it, I'll have to tell her it's not there anymore because the owner of the team is a cheap, greedy bastard that doesn't care about the fans but only about money.


It's never too early to teach the valuable lesson that you can't always get what you want. Tell her it's not there anymore, buy her a snow cone, she'll be happy again.

Iwritecode
12-29-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
You know what? You don't matter. I don't matter. None of us matter one bit to the team. The difference between us is that you seem to think that they're violating some contract they've made with you, while I realize and accept that they only want me for my money. They are a buisness, after all.

It's because of us that they exist. I think we matter plenty. A successful business should treat every one of their customers like they are the most important. Tell enough of us that "we don't matter" and the team will no longer exist...

Iwritecode
12-29-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
It's never too early to teach the valuable lesson that you can't always get what you want. Tell her it's not there anymore, buy her a snow cone, she'll be happy again.

Wow, you're obviously not a parent.

You sound a lot like JR who has also seemed to have forgotten that it's the simple things that sometimes matter the most.

Paulwny
12-29-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
It's never too early to teach the valuable lesson that you can't always get what you want. Tell her it's not there anymore, buy her a snow cone, she'll be happy again.

Yep, tell her to have fun at the park daddy has to spend more money.

anewman35
12-29-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
It's because of us that they exist. I think we matter plenty. A successful business should treat every one of their customers like they are the most important. Tell enough of us that "we don't matter" and the team will no longer exist...

It's all part of JR's master plan to have no fans at all, so the State has to pay him!

anewman35
12-29-2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Yep, tell her to have fun at the park daddy has to spend more money.

It's pretty silly to expect to take a kid to the park and not spend massive amounts of money, isn't it?

anewman35
12-29-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Wow, you're obviously not a parent.

You sound a lot like JR who has also seemed to have forgotten that it's the simple things that sometimes matter the most.

I'm not, no, but I don't expect to change. Your kid is going to grow up sooner or later, and in my opinion the sooner a kid learns the way the world really is, the better. What's the point of living in fantasyland?

Paulwny
12-29-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
It's pretty silly to expect to take a kid to the park and not spend massive amounts of money, isn't it?

It all depends on family income and their budget for entertainment.

anewman35
12-29-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
It all depends on family income and their budget for entertainment.

Anybody who even goes to a game, even a discounted game, must already have a fairly high budget for entertainment, wouldn't they? There are tons of cheaper ways to spend an afternoon or a night than going to a major league baseball game...

Paulwny
12-29-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Anybody who even goes to a game, even a discounted game, must already have a fairly high budget for entertainment, wouldn't they? There are tons of cheaper ways to spend an afternoon or a night than going to a major league baseball game...

No, it may mean that families may attend fewer games throughout the year.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
I'm not, no, but I don't expect to change. Your kid is going to grow up sooner or later, and in my opinion the sooner a kid learns the way the world really is, the better. What's the point of living in fantasyland?

Wow. That's two callous comments in a row. I know you independently confirmed your young age but you're really showing your immaturity with this attitude.

Now really, what is your most heartwarming memory from your first Sox game besides your father kicking you in the nuts and then laughing about it? It's not pleasant, is it?

Iwritecode
12-29-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
I'm not, no, but I don't expect to change. Your kid is going to grow up sooner or later, and in my opinion the sooner a kid learns the way the world really is, the better. What's the point of living in fantasyland?

I don't exactly think that expecting a free attraction that's been around longer than most of the people posting on this site is exactly living in fantasyland.

But I forgot that it's the White Sox that we are talking about.

I'm surprised Nancy Faust is still employed...

jabrch
12-29-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
It's pretty silly to expect to take a kid to the park and not spend massive amounts of money, isn't it?

I guess that depends on the definition of massive and the kind of expectations your child has. My little cousin expects dogs, drinks, hats, shirts, etc. When I take him to the games, my aunt/uncle throw money at me cuz they know I will spend it on the kid if I have it. When I go with my neighbor and his son, we bring sandwiches. We bring peanuts. We take the L. We dont buy JRs extra junk. So our only cost is tickets. Is it expensive? Not by most standards to pay 15 bucks for a seat and maybe 5$ per head for one coke/beer.

It all depends.

joecrede
12-29-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
No, it may mean that families may attend fewer games throughout the year.

If families cannot afford to go to a game they absolutely should not go, but I've never understood the logic in going and complaining about prices. This goes for events other than baseball games to.

Paulwny
12-29-2003, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
If families cannot afford to go to a game they absolutely should not go, but I've never understood the logic in going and complaining about prices. This goes for events other than baseball games to.

I agree, but, as was posted by PHG and IWC, this was a freebie that was entertaining to some families.

MarkEdward
12-29-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
I agree, but, as was posted by PHG and IWC, this was a freebie that was entertaining to some families.

Are lots and lots of folks going to stop coming to games because the shower feature has been taken away?

PaleHoseGeorge
12-29-2003, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by MarkEdward
Are lots and lots of folks going to stop coming to games because the shower feature has been taken away?

No. I wouldn't stop going to games because the Bullpen Bar was taken away. I wouldn't stop going to games because the exploding scoreboard was taken away. I wouldn't even stop going because the churros stand was taken away.

Take them all away for all I care. Of course there are a lot fewer reasons for going to games once they're gone... not that any of us should concern ourselves one way or another. Haven't we all learned that the Sox will blame us regardless of what we do?

Yeah, this is the way to build up your fan base.

dickallen15
12-29-2003, 07:27 PM
It seems silly they would be taking it out because of a lack of a sponsor. Who knows the real deal. Don't feel too bad, if you want to get soaked (besides paying for concessions) theres always the rain room.

Palehose13
12-29-2003, 07:42 PM
Take them all away for all I care. Of course there are a lot fewer reasons for going to games once they're gone... not that any of us should concern ourselves one way or another.

I agree with you, PHG. I would assume that those that post here are concerned with the product on the field and don't go for the "frills", but sometimes those frills are fun. I love the fireworks and am proud that the Sox were the first team to ever do that. I also love many of the other ammenities at the ballpark (LOVE the bullpen sportsbar). However, those are not my main concerns.

I don't have kids, but I know what kids are like and I can't imagine bringing one to the ballpark. I am sure the extras help to entertain the kids. Hell, my girlfriend has a hard time sitting through nine innings with me...I'd be willing to bet that it would be much worse with a nine year old! (well, maybe not...but maybe I can get HER to go in the shower :D: )

Anyways, I am now thinking about the marketing for last year: "This is White Sox Baseball". Weren't they marketing traditions like the shower, fireworks, etc. It just seems stupid and trivial to take it away (if in fact they are removing it...)

TornLabrum
12-29-2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
It seems silly they would be taking it out because of a lack of a sponsor. Who knows the real deal. Don't feel too bad, if you want to get soaked (besides paying for concessions) theres always the rain room.

:reinsy

"Hmmm...That's never been sponsored. Take that out too! And if it rains during a game...."

phaedrus
12-29-2003, 08:14 PM
I can't understand some of the posts in this thread so I'll pose this question - why do you follow and root for the Sox?If you only a fan because of the prospect of winning - why not switch teams every year (or just root for the $#!%@ yankees)? But we're all here because we're fans - what is it about the Sox that makes you keep coming back? I've said a thousand times that if I could have an operation to remove my White Sox Fan tumor I'd do it in a heartbeat because it usually hurts so bad.

I'm a fan because of my memories of growing up in the 70's and going to the games - because of the experiences I've had rooting for them. I certainly have no dilusions about the near term prospects for this bunch we have now. For those of you who say that none of these traditional things matter what makes you keep going back?

Palehose13
12-29-2003, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by phaedrus
I can't understand some of the posts in this thread so I'll pose this question - why do you follow and root for the Sox?If you only a fan because of the prospect of winning - why not switch teams every year (or just root for the $#!%@ yankees)? But we're all here because we're fans - what is it about the Sox that makes you keep coming back? I've said a thousand times that if I could have an operation to remove my White Sox Fan tumor I'd do it in a heartbeat because it usually hurts so bad.

I'm a fan because of my memories of growing up in the 70's and going to the games - because of the experiences I've had rooting for them. I certainly have no dilusions about the near term prospects for this bunch we have now. For those of you who say that none of these traditional things matter what makes you keep going back?

It seems that you answered your question with the first sentence in your second paragraph. It is about the experiences (and a Sox family). I'm not a CF shower fan, or a Fireworks fan, or a Comiskey Park fan, or a Nancy Faust fan, I am a White Sox Fan. Even though all of those experiences are a part of White Sox baseball, they certainly do not define White Sox baseball.

I don't want those things taken away and I am certain I would miss them if they were, but that wouldn't stop my love for the White Sox.

anewman35
12-29-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
It seems that you answered your question with the first sentence in your second paragraph. It is about the experiences (and a Sox family). I'm not a CF shower fan, or a Fireworks fan, or a Comiskey Park fan, or a Nancy Faust fan, I am a White Sox Fan. Even though all of those experiences are a part of White Sox baseball, they certainly do not define White Sox baseball.

I don't want those things taken away and I am certain I would miss them if they were, but that wouldn't stop my love for the White Sox.

Exactly. These "traditions" usually don't last forever, and new ones are created all the time (some recent examples are the ooeeeoo chant and the "White Sox Sonata"). What's the fun of living in the past? If something was fun in the 70s, great, but it's 2003 now, watch the game, and make some new memories.

Lip Man 1
12-29-2003, 10:59 PM
Yea I'll be replaying that September collapse at Minnesota in my mind many times! That's a real keeper for a 2003 memory!


:)

Lip

SpringfldFan
12-30-2003, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Exactly. These "traditions" usually don't last forever, and new ones are created all the time (some recent examples are the ooeeeoo chant and the "White Sox Sonata"). What's the fun of living in the past? If something was fun in the 70s, great, but it's 2003 now, watch the game, and make some new memories.

New traditions are created all the time? "New traditions"? How the he** can you call something a tradition if it has to be replaced all the time?

Seriously, I don't mind new additions to the team and experience. I have always liked the uniform changes. New promotions are alright, and I am thrilled to now have Hawk announcing. But for heaven's sake can't they retain some of the special things that have defined the very personality of the team, its city, and its fans for generations? Why not just rename the team after some corporation. The White Sox nickname is just tradition after all. Heck, it is just tradition that the team has always been in Chicago. They don't have to stay in Chicago to exist. But hey, new traditions are created all the time, right?

voodoochile
12-30-2003, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
No. I wouldn't stop going to games because the Bullpen Bar was taken away. I wouldn't stop going to games because the exploding scoreboard was taken away. I wouldn't even stop going because the churros stand was taken away.

Take them all away for all I care. Of course there are a lot fewer reasons for going to games once they're gone... not that any of us should concern ourselves one way or another. Haven't we all learned that the Sox will blame us regardless of what we do?

Yeah, this is the way to build up your fan base.

No worries, JR is going to bring a championship home to the southside and then he won't need any other attractions...

I don't know whether to use teal, deeppink or just lots and lots of laughing smilies. Of course now I feel like crying. That JR he always brings out the best in me...

red faber
12-30-2003, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
Jeez, I didn't mean to cause a stir.

All I'm saying is its not like that shower is drawing people to the ballpark. Perhaps something else in its place could, like a small arcade for children, I don't know.

But if you want to get mad at someone for this, get mad at the people who don't come to games and force management to both cost cut and search for new streams of revenue.

It's becoming so passe to target management when it comes to people not showing up. If they were truly fans, they would come regardless. I do.


a small arcade for children???????

there is only about 5 or 6 feet of space where that shower is.
so i don't know how you figure that they can put enough games in that space for a arcade,or even a small arcade.

so now the team's situation is our fault because we don't come out to the games????how about the sox start showing that they give a damn about winning so that we will want to come out more often.we are the customers,it is their jobs to impress us not the other way around..

if you want to waste your money on an inferior product,go right ahead.after all you know what they say"a fool and their money soon part".but they will not get more of my money until they show me something!!!!!!!!!!!!


true fans come regardless eh??

if that's the case then everybody in the stands at the big urinal is a true fan,right???????


if you win,people will come eventually!!!!

why is this so hard for some people to understand?????

Meixner007
12-30-2003, 03:16 AM
The fact that this topic has 98 responses is very bothersome.

doublem23
12-30-2003, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
KC's got a friggin waterworks in centrefield and JR can't spurge on a showerhead? Pathetic.

As for the arcade idea, check out Comerica Park first. It's got an entire carnival set aside on one concourse. Mini ferris wheel, kiddie rides, etc. The more I think about it, the more I hate it. Baseball parks are for baseball, not for spending three hours on a tiger carousel. Anyone else have thoughts on the Comerica Carny?

I'm still waiting on the Sox to install a big, ****ing Ferris Wheel in left field. That'd would be mint. But it would cost money and involve thinking outside the box. Not too mention it would require some ad space to be lost.

TommyJohn
12-30-2003, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
I'm still waiting on the Sox to install a big, ****ing Ferris Wheel in left field. That'd would be mint. But it would cost money and involve thinking outside the box. Not too mention it would require some ad space to be lost.

:tomatoaward

red faber
12-30-2003, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by Meixner007
The fact that this topic has 98 responses is very bothersome.

this isn't so much about a shower,it's more so about reinsdork and his ass-backwards ways!!!!!

anewman35
12-30-2003, 07:41 AM
Originally posted by SpringfldFan
New traditions are created all the time? "New traditions"? How the he** can you call something a tradition if it has to be replaced all the time?[/COLOR]

What, all the great traditons were created in the 60's and 70's and 80's, and anything created now sucks? Whatever. Things change. It happens. It isn't always a bad thing.

Anyway, the best "traditions" aren't created to be traditions, they just seem like a good idea at the time, and they grow on people. Who's to say something like that can't be created now?

voodoochile
12-30-2003, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
What, all the great traditons were created in the 60's and 70's and 80's, and anything created now sucks? Whatever. Things change. It happens. It isn't always a bad thing.

Anyway, the best "traditions" aren't created to be traditions, they just seem like a good idea at the time, and they grow on people. Who's to say something like that can't be created now?

Um... creating traditions is not the same as tearing old ones down. What traditions have the Sox implemented under JR?

Nancy? Less air time

Old Stadium? gone

Harry leading the 7th inning stretch? Gave it to the flubbies

R&R? Came and went

Shower stall? Fate TBD.

Okay, so several have gone away, but what has been created?

Oh that's right, we've got Dog Day and Flying Elvis night... (sigh...)

TornLabrum
12-30-2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, so several have gone away, but what has been created?

Oh that's right, we've got Dog Day and Flying Elvis night... (sigh...)

And it took them how many years to figure out that having dogs sit in the sun in the bleachers on a hot August afternoon is not a good thing. Had they continued that, a new tradition of Rob Galas appearances in small claims court might have been born.

jabrch
12-30-2003, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Yea I'll be replaying that September collapse at Minnesota in my mind many times! That's a real keeper for a 2003 memory!


:)

Lip

My 2003 memory will be Paniagua coming in and me looking at my friends who I was at the game with and saying "this is the beginning of the end - right here"

Manuel sure knew how to deflate momentum.

ode to veeck
12-30-2003, 10:26 AM
My 2003 memory will be Paniagua coming in and me looking at my friends who I was at the game with and saying "this is the beginning of the end - right here"

Ouch, I had blocked that one out, or at least pushed it deep enough into my subconsciousness that it was a dull pain ... but the fresh wound is open again thinking how I felt when that was happening ...

TornLabrum
12-30-2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
Ouch, I had blocked that one out, or at least pushed it deep enough into my subconsciousness that it was a dull pain ... but the fresh wound is open again thinking how I felt when that was happening ...

You gotta say one thing for Gen. Disarray. He knew how to suck the life out of a team and its fans.

ode to veeck
12-30-2003, 10:30 AM
Oh that's right, we've got Dog Day and Flying Elvis night... (sigh...)

An interesting question might be what new traditions have come under the JR era? (and what do we make of them, assuming such things have value in an entertaiment biz, ergo baseball)

Ribbie and Rhubarb (pathetic), fortunatly now gone

Hawk, generally pretty positive though I don't care for him

others?

anewman35
12-30-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Um... creating traditions is not the same as tearing old ones down. What traditions have the Sox implemented under JR?

Nancy? Less air time

Old Stadium? gone

Harry leading the 7th inning stretch? Gave it to the flubbies

R&R? Came and went

Shower stall? Fate TBD.

Okay, so several have gone away, but what has been created?

Oh that's right, we've got Dog Day and Flying Elvis night... (sigh...)

Yes, they seem stupid now. But I'm sure plenty of people thought Nancy Faust, Harry Carey, and the Shower were stupid, too.

Not to disrespect anybody, but far too many people here seem to be of the opinion that everything was better in the (pick one: 60s/70s/80s). You know what? I'm glad you liked it in the 60s/70s/80s. But I bet people who weren't kids then thought it was better in the 50s and the 40s and the 30s. It's all a matter of perception, people think it was better when they were a kid because that's what they grew up around and got used to - but that doesn't mean it was really any better.

Let's all be honest here - it's not as if the Sox (for whatever reasons) have a whole bunch of great traditions going back to 1901. Most of these "traditions" are from the 60s or the 70s, which isn't that long a time, certainly not long enough for them to be historic. As much as I hate them, teams like the Cubs, Yankees, and Red Sox, they have traditions that mean something. Not some stupid 30 year old shower.

I really don't care about a 30 year old shower stall being a tradition, and I'm sure most younger Sox fans agree. Sure, they might think the shower is neat, but do they care that Bill Veeck installed it or about it's sentimental value to people who were there in 1977? No, we're lucky if they know who Bill Veeck is. Older people might think the current Sox era is horrible, and that we should worship everything from the 70s, but that's not going to draw new fans, it'll just turn them off, because, newsflash, kids/teens today couldn't care less about the 70s. This franchise hasn't exactly had a storied past, why do you want to live in it?

anewman35
12-30-2003, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
An interesting question might be what new traditions have come under the JR era? (and what do we make of them, assuming such things have value in an entertaiment biz, ergo baseball)



The silver and black color scheme scheme doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

Having a nice clean ballpark is a new tradition, isn't it?

ode to veeck
12-30-2003, 10:45 AM
The silver and black color scheme scheme doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

Having a nice clean ballpark is a new tradition, isn't it?

Personally, I prefer the silver and black and the old ballpark, but those are two decent "new traditions" ...

voodoochile
12-30-2003, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Yes, they seem stupid now. But I'm sure plenty of people thought Nancy Faust, Harry Carey, and the Shower were stupid, too.

Not to disrespect anybody, but far too many people here seem to be of the opinion that everything was better in the (pick one: 60s/70s/80s). You know what? I'm glad you liked it in the 60s/70s/80s. But I bet people who weren't kids then thought it was better in the 50s and the 40s and the 30s. It's all a matter of perception, people think it was better when they were a kid because that's what they grew up around and got used to - but that doesn't mean it was really any better.

Let's all be honest here - it's not as if the Sox (for whatever reasons) have a whole bunch of great traditions going back to 1901. Most of these "traditions" are from the 60s or the 70s, which isn't that long a time, certainly not long enough for them to be historic. As much as I hate them, teams like the Cubs, Yankees, and Red Sox, they have traditions that mean something. Not some stupid 30 year old shower.

I really don't care about a 30 year old shower stall being a tradition, and I'm sure most younger Sox fans agree. Sure, they might think the shower is neat, but do they care that Bill Veeck installed it or about it's sentimental value to people who were there in 1977? No, we're lucky if they know who Bill Veeck is. Older people might think the current Sox era is horrible, and that we should worship everything from the 70s, but that's not going to draw new fans, it'll just turn them off, because, newsflash, kids/teens today couldn't care less about the 70s. This franchise hasn't exactly had a storied past, why do you want to live in it?

You know what? If this ownership group had managed a couple of championships over this same period of time, it might be different, but they can't even do the one thing they are supposed to be doing right. Throw in the constant kicks to the teeth that the PR department and JR come up with and it just paints a sad legacy.

I don't pine for the 70's, 80's, 60's or any past era. I pine for the day that JR will finally take his blood money and leave. Maybe the next guy can do a better job of creating and maintaining traditions and actually manage to win too...

anewman35
12-30-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You know what? If this ownership group had managed a couple of championships over this same period of time, it might be different, but they can't even do the one thing they are supposed to be doing right. Throw in the constant kicks to the teeth that the PR department and JR come up with and it just paints a sad legacy.


I'm not going to say JR's done a great job, because the three playoff appearences are pretty pathetic, yes. However, compared to other White Sox history, it hasn't been too bad - the 90s until now has been one of the best (if not the best) strech the White Sox have had in a long time - few great teams, but few horrible ones, too, and a decade where we end up a little better than mediocre is better in my mind than, say, the 40s. The team hasn't finished last in 14 years, so he must be doing something slightly right.

Not to say it's good enough, because it's not. But it could be worse.

miker
12-30-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
...and if there's one thing I'm certain of - it's that Reinsdorf will do everything possible to distance himself from any vestige of a pre-Reinsdorf White Sox Organization.

Well the team's second-tier status in its own town is definitely a break from tradition.

Maybe JR has figured that we've won enough World Series, after all, 1917 was definitely pre-Reinsdorf.

KingXerxes
12-30-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Not to disrespect anybody, but far too many people here seem to be of the opinion that everything was better in the (pick one: 60s/70s/80s). You know what? I'm glad you liked it in the 60s/70s/80s. But I bet people who weren't kids then thought it was better in the 50s and the 40s and the 30s. It's all a matter of perception, people think it was better when they were a kid because that's what they grew up around and got used to - but that doesn't mean it was really any better.

"It's all a matter of perception" - BINGO!


You are trivializing the "perception" that a large part of the fan base thought things were better in the 60s/70s/80s. These are the fans who have kids now, are not paying off student loans, and are most likely to spend some money going to the game and passing it along to their offspring. By cavalierly saying "just start new traditions" you have broken a cardinal rule in marketing by alienating your base - and this is exactly what Reinsdorf continues to do on a regular basis. It's all about perception - because to a large extent - perception is all that matters.

Does evey franchise have to move forward to keep up with the times - absolutely, but in moving forward they should not make the mistake of jettisoning that which works from the past. Reinsdorf almost seems to go out of his way to eliminate any tradition.

ode to veeck
12-30-2003, 11:58 AM
I really don't care about a 30 year old shower stall being a tradition, and I'm sure most younger Sox fans agree. Sure, they might think the shower is neat, but <...>

So just because you personnally don't appreciate the shower, why slam those that do? It obviously holds some meaning & value to a significant portion of the fan base BINGO why throw out something that works to appeal to a significant portion of your customers, especially when it costs something in the range of epsilon.

I don't particularly care for the new ballpark or Hawk, but do appreciate the fact they are valued by significant numbers of today's Sox customers.

Point being here, Jerry keeps shooting himself in the same damm spot in his foot here PR wise, and is too thick skulled to recognize the pain or the problem ...

anewman35
12-30-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
So just because you personnally don't appreciate the shower, why slam those that do? It obviously holds some meaning & value to a significant portion of the fan base BINGO why throw out something that works to appeal to a significant portion of your customers, especially when it costs something in the range of epsilon.


I never said they should throw it out, I said it was pretty silly to do so (and I still don't especially believe this third-hand rumor). I'm not so sure, though, that a "significant portion of the fan base" cares. A "significant portion of the fan base" on WSI might care, but I think that the demographics of people on WSI are very different than the demographics of Sox fans as a whole. I hope they are, at least, because I hope all Sox fans aren't as bitter and pessimistic as the general population here is.

Baby Fisk
12-30-2003, 12:10 PM
This entire marathon thread -- sparked by speculation -- is symptomatic of a very unhealthy organization: a management that can't produce winners, fans who are reduced to clinging to memories of centrefield showers instead of champagne showers, and a 2004 season that has NO ONE bubbling in anticipation. This sucks. :(:

Tekijawa
12-30-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
...and a 2004 season that has NO ONE bubbling in anticipation. This sucks. :(:

Are you Kidding me? I can't wait to get My Willy Harris Jersey, as I'm sure he'll be a fixture at 2nd base for years to come!

Baby Fisk
12-30-2003, 12:45 PM
That reminds me...anybody know Uribe's #? Gotta get in that jersey order myself...

You should revive that "no negatives" thread for days (weeks?) like this.

Iwritecode
12-30-2003, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
The team hasn't finished last in 14 years, so he must be doing something slightly right.

Not to say it's good enough, because it's not. But it could be worse.

In the long run, what's the difference between second and last? I don't see any trophies being handed out for second place. This isn't the NBA or the NFL where you can finish second or third and still make the playoffs.

I think last year was even worse than 2001 or 2002. To have the team come all the way back from 5 games? under .500 to first place and then choke it away in the last month hurts more than watching the team hang around in third all season long.

At least if they would have finished last a couple of times they might have gotten a couple of decent draft picks...

anewman35
12-30-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
In the long run, what's the difference between second and last? I don't see any trophies being handed out for second place. This isn't the NBA or the NFL where you can finish second or third and still make the playoffs.


Well, there is the wild card...

But I do see your point, and agree with you. My point was, while it's clearly not enough, the current administration has built a team that's not horrible and have had chances to do things, but failed in the end (the 2000 playoff choke, the 2003 September choke are the most recent examples. How different would we all see this team if we hadn't had hurt pitchers in 2000, we'd beat Seattle, and went on to the series?)

TornLabrum
12-30-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
This isn't the NBA or the NFL where you can finish second or third and still make the playoffs.

Tell that to the 2003 Marlins and the 2002 Angels.

Lip Man 1
12-30-2003, 02:51 PM
Anewman asks:

This franchise hasn't exactly had a storied past, why do you want to live in it?

Just one person's opinion New.....

Because the Sox past was sure a hell of a lot better then it is right now.

Here's an example, I was born in August 1955, I was 12 1/2 years old before the Sox ever had a losing season.

The White Sox (despite Uncle Jerry's radio comments) owned Chicago not the Cubs.

you're right the Sox haven't had exactly a storied past but again it sure beats the hell out of what they have now.

Lip

Lip Man 1
12-30-2003, 02:55 PM
One tradition started by the White Sox that actually worked and was immediately copied by the NFL,NBA and NHL.

Turn Back The Clock Day.

Of course the White Sox also created Turn Ahead The Clock Day (which didn't go over so well did it?) (I suggested on Turn Ahead The Clock Day that the Sox wear uniforms with Mexico City on the front...or New Orleans or Las Vegas... at least with the recent stadium lease extension the odds of that happening are pretty small now.)

Lip

Baby Fisk
12-30-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Of course the White Sox also created Turn Ahead The Clock Day (which didn't go over so well did it?)

Are you serious? What was Turn Ahead the Clock Day?

FanOf14
12-30-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
Are you serious? What was Turn Ahead the Clock Day?

Lame.

The uniforms looked like aluminum (I had a digital picture at home of one of the players in the uniform) and they had sci-fi ish cartoon introduction of the players. I don't remember much of it, just that it seemed stupid to me, or at least the idea (which I initially liked) wasn't well planned out.

anewman35
12-30-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
Lame.

The uniforms looked like aluminum (I had a digital picture at home of one of the players in the uniform) and they had sci-fi ish cartoon introduction of the players.

I think I saw the Rockies copy that idea one year.

Anyway, can you or somebody post a picture of those? I can't remember what they looked like...

Baby Fisk
12-30-2003, 03:25 PM
Stop! Stop! For the love of God, stop! I don't want to see any photographic evidence of what you describe. What on earth were they thinking?

**picturing Ozzie flouncing around in shiny space go-go boots**

anewman35
12-30-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
Stop! Stop! For the love of God, stop! I don't want to see any photographic evidence of what you describe. What on earth were they thinking?

**picturing Ozzie flouncing around in shiny space go-go boots**

Hmm, appearently it wasn't the Sox fault... click here (http://www.gettingit.com/article/648)

Lip Man 1
12-30-2003, 03:28 PM
The Twins and Royals also had games wearing futuristic uniforms.

The Twins for example had the baseball with the old M in it on the uniform front which covered 2/3rd of the front of the jersey. It was deliberately out of proportion.

They had the players name on the back below garish looking stripes at a 45 degree angle in the team colors.

It was pretty ugly all the way around.

Lip

Iwritecode
12-30-2003, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Tell that to the 2003 Marlins and the 2002 Angels.

OK, maybe I should have said third or fourth...

Anyway, when's the last time the WC came out of the AL central?

Oh yea, that's right, Never!

Iwritecode
12-30-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Well, there is the wild card...

But I do see your point, and agree with you. My point was, while it's clearly not enough, the current administration has built a team that's not horrible and have had chances to do things, but failed in the end (the 2000 playoff choke, the 2003 September choke are the most recent examples. How different would we all see this team if we hadn't had hurt pitchers in 2000, we'd beat Seattle, and went on to the series?)

I've always said that even one WS win (or even appearance for that matter) would/should make a world of difference around this organization.

Just look at what coming within 5 outs of that scenario has done for the team on the north side of town...

npdempse
12-30-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

It was pretty ugly all the way around.


Wow.
No Sox, but check this crap out--
Fugly Jerseys (http://www.angelfire.com/blues/new_yorker/TATC.html)

miker
12-30-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by npdempse
Wow.
No Sox, but check this crap out--
Fugly Jerseys (http://www.angelfire.com/blues/new_yorker/TATC.html)

These are just SO wrong...and all in the name of marketing, what a waste.

Baby Fisk
12-30-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by npdempse
Wow.
No Sox, but check this crap out--
Fugly Jerseys (http://www.angelfire.com/blues/new_yorker/TATC.html)

It's like MLB does the XFL.

:tool

"In yo FACE, Vince McMahon! BOO-YAH!"

santo=dorf
12-30-2003, 06:21 PM
Maybe they are going to install hot water pipes to try and improve attendance during the cold weather games in April.



:reinsy

"Keep dreaming."

soxguy
12-30-2003, 09:35 PM
Well here we are, the sox address their biggest fan complaint, the upper deck, and its not even completed before some sox fans whine about a silly shower in the outfield! tHE ONE THING i CAN'T STAND ABOUT SOME SOX FANS IS THEIR INABILITY TO ENJOY WHITE SOX BASEBALL WHITHOUT VOICEING THEIR PETTY COMPLAINTS. Grow up guys! Whats next? The urinal deoderizer is not a fresh enuff scent for you......or.....the concession stands don't use grey poupon mustard.....or.....they don't have enuff m & m races or pizza races on the scoreboard. GROW UP!!!!

red faber
12-31-2003, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
What, all the great traditons were created in the 60's and 70's and 80's, and anything created now sucks? Whatever. Things change. It happens. It isn't always a bad thing.

Anyway, the best "traditions" aren't created to be traditions, they just seem like a good idea at the time, and they grow on people. Who's to say something like that can't be created now?

who's to say that something like that CAN be created now????

red faber
12-31-2003, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Yes, they seem stupid now. But I'm sure plenty of people thought Nancy Faust, Harry Carey, and the Shower were stupid, too.

Not to disrespect anybody, but far too many people here seem to be of the opinion that everything was better in the (pick one: 60s/70s/80s). You know what? I'm glad you liked it in the 60s/70s/80s. But I bet people who weren't kids then thought it was better in the 50s and the 40s and the 30s. It's all a matter of perception, people think it was better when they were a kid because that's what they grew up around and got used to - but that doesn't mean it was really any better.

Let's all be honest here - it's not as if the Sox (for whatever reasons) have a whole bunch of great traditions going back to 1901. Most of these "traditions" are from the 60s or the 70s, which isn't that long a time, certainly not long enough for them to be historic. As much as I hate them, teams like the Cubs, Yankees, and Red Sox, they have traditions that mean something. Not some stupid 30 year old shower.

I really don't care about a 30 year old shower stall being a tradition, and I'm sure most younger Sox fans agree. Sure, they might think the shower is neat, but do they care that Bill Veeck installed it or about it's sentimental value to people who were there in 1977? No, we're lucky if they know who Bill Veeck is. Older people might think the current Sox era is horrible, and that we should worship everything from the 70s, but that's not going to draw new fans, it'll just turn them off, because, newsflash, kids/teens today couldn't care less about the 70s. This franchise hasn't exactly had a storied past, why do you want to live in it?


well i'm a younger sox fan and i think that the shower is a GREAT TRADITION!!!!!
your problem is that,you think your opinion represents the opinions of most of the younger sox fans.and you just don't know that to be true.so what are the sox supposed to do,just throw away a tradition just because you THINK that it is irrelevent to most younger sox fans.that is asinine and narrow minded and selfish!!


there were younger white sox fans before us,and they embraced the shower tradition.so why should we younger sox fans not embrace it.you shouldn't live in the past,but you just don't just throw the past away just because you think it's supposedly meaningless to the younger set.

youre rignt the white sox past was bad,but it wasn't bad because of a shower.the white sox past and present for that matter is bad because of the lack of winning and people running the team that make bad decisions.

SPEAK WHAT YOU KNOW,NOT WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW!!!!!

red faber
12-31-2003, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
I'm not going to say JR's done a great job, because the three playoff appearences are pretty pathetic, yes. However, compared to other White Sox history, it hasn't been too bad - the 90s until now has been one of the best (if not the best) strech the White Sox have had in a long time - few great teams, but few horrible ones, too, and a decade where we end up a little better than mediocre is better in my mind than, say, the 40s. The team hasn't finished last in 14 years, so he must be doing something slightly right.

Not to say it's good enough, because it's not. But it could be worse.


how can you say he is doing something even slightly right????

if you aren't winning championships,or at least getting to the world series,or at least getting into the playoffs consistently,you aren't doing anything right!!! not even slightly!!!!!!

and what we did in the early 90's pales in comparison to what we did from 1951 through 1967.yeah,we only made it into the playoffs once but,if baseball back then had the playoff format it has now they would have been in the playoffs quite a bit!!
and they would have won a few championships too more than likely.

check it out.

http://www.baseballreference.com/teams/chw/

red faber
12-31-2003, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Well, there is the wild card...

But I do see your point, and agree with you. My point was, while it's clearly not enough, the current administration has built a team that's not horrible and have had chances to do things, but failed in the end (the 2000 playoff choke, the 2003 September choke are the most recent examples. How different would we all see this team if we hadn't had hurt pitchers in 2000, we'd beat Seattle, and went on to the series?)

if they hasn't kept up that success in01'02'and this year,i'd view them about the same as i do now!!!!!!!!

it's not pessimism,it's REALITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CLR01
12-31-2003, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by red faber
well i'm a younger sox fan and i think that the shower is a GREAT TRADITION!!!!!
your problem is that,you think your opinion represents the opinions of most of the younger sox fans.and you just don't know that to be true.so what are the sox supposed to do,just throw away a tradition just because you THINK that it is irrelevent to most younger sox fans.that is asinine and narrow minded and selfish!!

When did he say the shower should be removed?

there were younger white sox fans before us,and they embraced the shower tradition.so why should we younger sox fans not embrace it.you shouldn't live in the past,but you just don't just throw the past away just because you think it's supposedly meaningless to the younger set.

youre rignt the white sox past was bad,but it wasn't bad because of a shower.the white sox past and present for that matter is bad because of the lack of winning and people running the team that make bad decisions.

SPEAK WHAT YOU KNOW,NOT WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW!!!!!


Embrace the shower tradition? It's the FOtSH battle cry. *****!

I'm a younger sox fan and I couldn't care less about a SHOWER HEAD being removed from the park. I dont go to USCF to stand under a cold shower, I can do that all day at home.

What happened to the tradition of going to the park to watch the game?

voodoochile
12-31-2003, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by CLR01
What happened to the tradition of going to the park to watch the game?

To get people to do that consistently, you have to win, win and win some more. That costs more money than running a shower head (or letting people bring their dogs to the park, or hiring Elvis impersonators to jump out of airplanes or etc. etc.)

:reinsy
"Can't afford to attract people who actually care about baseball games, so we've been running them off for a while now. Hopefully we can fill the park with lots and lots of idiots who are out just for the entertainment aspect of it all. It worked on the northside and it can down here too."

anewman35
12-31-2003, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by red faber
who's to say that something like that CAN be created now????

Why can't it? What's so different about the world now as opposed to 25 years ago?

hsnterprize
12-31-2003, 08:18 AM
As said by VoodooChile...

"To get people to do that consistently, you have to win, win and win some more."

As if I had to mention this...tell the Cubs that. All they have to do is have an old ballpark with a party atmosphere, bars a pass-out distance away from the right or center-field seats, a major TV and newspaper network passing out propaganda, and constant negativism towards your competition, and the fans who want to get drunk, not care about the game, and go along with a celebrity who can't sing will come.

CLR01
12-31-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
Why can't it? What's so different about the world now as opposed to 25 years ago?


The tradition deadline passed with the US bicentennial. You didnt know that?

voodoochile
12-31-2003, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by hsnterprize
As said by VoodooChile...

"To get people to do that consistently, you have to win, win and win some more."

As if I had to mention this...tell the Cubs that. All they have to do is have an old ballpark with a party atmosphere, bars a pass-out distance away from the right or center-field seats, a major TV and newspaper network passing out propaganda, and constant negativism towards your competition, and the fans who want to get drunk, not care about the game, and go along with a celebrity who can't sing will come.

No, you can do it the other way, in fact, I think that is what JR truly wants. I don't think he cares whether people actually care about the team so long as they spend their money. I am sure he is licking his chops over the gentrification programs going on down by Soxpark and knows that if he can hold on as little as another 5 years he can probably almost double the franchise value just on the basis of the changed neighborhood. At the least he should be able to draw 2M fans on a regular basis without trying too hard.

This flubbie fans don't care about the game is simply silly. It's an old an unproven argument. Yes, there are casual fans at Wrigley, but you don't get the kind of turnout they did last year if no one cares about the sport itself. Sure, there are drunken idiots who are just there to pick up on chicks and talk on their cell phones - just like at every sporting event (yes, even Soxpark). All those people have money and that is the bottom line anyway..

JR had most of that stuff when he took over the team. If he doesn't chase of Harry and Jimmy, maybe the Sox are the ones with Ozzie mangling the words to TMOTTBG currently. Of course he still wouldn't have the other natural attractions around the park that the flubbies do because he had them all torn down to make way for the parking lots...

hsnterprize
12-31-2003, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
No, you can do it the other way, in fact, I think that is what JR truly wants. I don't think he cares whether people actually care about the team so long as they spend their money. I am sure he is licking his chops over the gentrification programs going on down by Soxpark and knows that if he can hold on as little as another 5 years he can probably almost double the franchise value just on the basis of the changed neighborhood. At the least he should be able to draw 2M fans on a regular basis without trying too hard.

This flubbie fans don't care about the game is simply silly. It's an old an unproven argument. Yes, there are casual fans at Wrigley, but you don't get the kind of turnout they did last year if no one cares about the sport itself. Sure, there are drunken idiots who are just there to pick up on chicks and talk on their cell phones - just like at every sporting event (yes, even Soxpark). All those people have money and that is the bottom line anyway..

JR had most of that stuff when he took over the team. If he doesn't chase of Harry and Jimmy, maybe the Sox are the ones with Ozzie mangling the words to TMOTTBG currently. Of course he still wouldn't have the other natural attractions around the park that the flubbies do because he had them all torn down to make way for the parking lots... Those are good points. I know there are people who legitimately care about the Cubs, and I know we die-hard Sox fans actually respect Cub fans who really are fans, and not a bunch of bandwagon jumpers going for the party. I also know there are "trendy", "Going to be seen" fans who go to Sox park. However, the Cubs' reputation in recent years is built more on the casual fan rather than the serious fan. If 38,000 serious, die-hard Cub fans went to Wrigley Field day in and day out, then we'd have a different conversation. However, we all know that many people the people, if not most of the people who frequent Wrigley Field aren't necessarity there to see the game. The game is an excuse to spend money and party until they puke.

Yes...we all know that if it weren't for some bonehead moves by Reinsdorf, the Sox would probably be the more popular baseball team in this town, if not a lot closer to the Cubs. He chased off Harry, said in many cases the Sox don't have a chance to compete, consistently denies the Cubs being "competition" even though we know better, and other things that would cause a political coup in some 3rd world country. However, we all know that as long as there are such entities as the Tribune Company, willing media, and other disadvantages, we Sox fans will continually be referred to as "second fiddle", "stupid", "uneducated", and other derrogatory remarks for either not supporting our own team, or supporting the Cubs when they make the rare appearance in the post-season. Funny, I don't remember such talk when Cub fans celebrated outside Wrigley Field when the Sox lost in the playoffs in 1983, '93, and 2000. Will anyone in the media ever learn the Sox are a completely different entity than the Cubs. I'm sure they either will know or already know that, but Cubs fans in the press won't make the effort to report fairly, but only put their favorite team in a good light...as if you needed me to tell you that.

red faber
12-31-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by CLR01
When did he say the shower should be removed?




Embrace the shower tradition? It's the FOtSH battle cry. *****!

I'm a younger sox fan and I couldn't care less about a SHOWER HEAD being removed from the park. I dont go to USCF to stand under a cold shower, I can do that all day at home.

What happened to the tradition of going to the park to watch the game? \


when did i say he said the shower should be removed?????????

and as far as the tradition of going to the park goes,if you want that tradition to be rejuvenated,all reinsdork has to do is this.....

HAVE A SINCERE COMMITMENT TO WINNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i don't go to comiskey to stand under a cold shower either,but it's part of the TRADITION of the ballpark.it's not like it's hurting anybody,it's not like it's costing reinsdork an arm and a leg to maintain it,so why get rid of it????????????

it's just a move that smacks of pettiness if you ask me.

red faber
12-31-2003, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
Why can't it? What's so different about the world now as opposed to 25 years ago?


well for one,i'm pretty sure that people had a little more respect for tradition 25 years ago!!!!

anewman35
12-31-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by red faber
well for one,i'm pretty sure that people had a little more respect for tradition 25 years ago!!!!

I see from your user info that you are 25. How can you know that people had more respect for tradition 25 years ago?

Disco Demolition, Exploding Scoreboards, Showers, Shorts, Infield Artificial Turf - nothing non-traditional about any of that!

TornLabrum
12-31-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
I see from your user info that you are 25. How can you know that people had more respect for tradition 25 years ago?

Disco Demolition, Exploding Scoreboards, Showers, Shorts, Infield Artificial Turf - nothing non-traditional about any of that!

Veeck took out the infield artificial turf when he took over the club 28 years ago. By 25 years ago more than one club had an exploding scoreboard, iirc, and the Sox had had theirs for almost 20 years.

red faber
12-31-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
I see from your user info that you are 25. How can you know that people had more respect for tradition 25 years ago?

Disco Demolition, Exploding Scoreboards, Showers, Shorts, Infield Artificial Turf - nothing non-traditional about any of that!

i said i was pretty sure,not 100%sure

windycityson
12-31-2003, 07:29 PM
I think I speak for everybody when I say: :threadsucks

anewman35
01-01-2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Veeck took out the infield artificial turf when he took over the club 28 years ago. By 25 years ago more than one club had an exploding scoreboard, iirc, and the Sox had had theirs for almost 20 years.

I know, I know, I was just using round numbers, not taking "25 years" totally literely. Point being, there was plenty of weird non-traditional stuff going on in the 60s and 70s.

TornLabrum
01-01-2004, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
I know, I know, I was just using round numbers, not taking "25 years" totally literely. Point being, there was plenty of weird non-traditional stuff going on in the 60s and 70s.

:hawk

"I luuuuv crooked numbers. 25 is a crooked number."

Clarkdog
01-02-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
I really don't see how anybody can be surprised at this. The shower was an ersatz holdover from the old Comiskey Park - and if there's one thing I'm certain of - it's that Reinsdorf will do everything possible to distance himself from any vestige of a pre-Reinsdorf White Sox Organization.

I wouldn't be surprised that if in the next few years he doesn't change the team's name to some sort of MTVish "Chicago Force" or "Chicago Shock" - it would be right up his alley.

:reinsy

"Tradition schmadition - White Sox was a tired old name anyway. Oh - due to the new signage and uniforms from the name change, we're raising ticket prices."

King:

This is the truest statement of the Reinsdorf/Einhorn ownership group. I think they choose not to embrace the history of the franchise because of it takes away from the "legacy" of the team under their direction. The shower is a nod to Veeck. To Reinsdorf/Einhorn/Gallas et al - it wasn't invented here. They canned Harry, Nancy plays much less, hell they probably would have dumped the expolding scoreboard if it wasn't such an icon. Why keep the shower when you have the rain room?

About the only legacy this ownership group can stake claim to is missed opportunities, underachieving ballclubs, and dog turds on the outfield concourse.

anewman35
01-02-2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Clarkdog
King:

This is the truest statement of the Reinsdorf/Einhorn ownership group. I think they choose not to embrace the history of the franchise because of it takes away from the "legacy" of the team under their direction. The shower is a nod to Veeck. To Reinsdorf/Einhorn/Gallas et al - it wasn't invented here. They canned Harry, Nancy plays much less, hell they probably would have dumped the expolding scoreboard if it wasn't such an icon. Why keep the shower when you have the rain room?


If that were true, then why'd they ever install it at the new park to begin with?

Daver
01-02-2004, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by anewman35
If that were true, then why'd they ever install it at the new park to begin with?

Local 130 and the Chicago Plumbing Council donated the labor and materials to install it as a PR move during an unuasally warm summer in the early 90's,with the agreement to sponsor it for a certain number of years.

dickallen15
01-02-2004, 08:50 PM
Who cares about a shower being removed? Is that a reason to go to a game? Why isn't anyone bringing up the other Veeck tradition, the barber in CF? The shower was up at old Comiskey for only 4 or 5 years, it was taken down when Veeck sold the team. It was up at the new park for 4 or 5 years. What's the big deal? Its a cold shower that was hardly ever used. Hardly a White Sox tradition. Get over it.

basilesox
01-02-2004, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Baby Fisk
KC's got a friggin waterworks in centrefield and JR can't spurge on a showerhead? Pathetic.

As for the arcade idea, check out Comerica Park first. It's got an entire carnival set aside on one concourse. Mini ferris wheel, kiddie rides, etc. The more I think about it, the more I hate it. Baseball parks are for baseball, not for spending three hours on a tiger carousel. Anyone else have thoughts on the Comerica Carny?

I agree that having a carnival in the park, but away from the field of play does detract from the game, but Comerica is an incredible park. I would love it if the sox played in a park like that. But I always say that I go to the ballpark to see the team play, not to enjoy the park. As long as the food is good (which it is in my opinion) then I am happy. Still, I bet the carnival gets a lot of attention once the Tigers are getting smashed by the third inning, and i dont think things are gonna get any better by signing Jason Johnson for 7 mill. I cant believe people are pissed because we signed our SS who hits 25 HRs a year and is the clubhouse leader for 5 mill. at least were not giving that Joker 7 mill.

red faber
01-03-2004, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Who cares about a shower being removed? Is that a reason to go to a game? Why isn't anyone bringing up the other Veeck tradition, the barber in CF? The shower was up at old Comiskey for only 4 or 5 years, it was taken down when Veeck sold the team. It was up at the new park for 4 or 5 years. What's the big deal? Its a cold shower that was hardly ever used. Hardly a White Sox tradition. Get over it.

no,it's not the reason to go to a game,but it's a cool feature.and it's not like it's costing the sox an arm and a leg to keep it.

so just keep it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

he should worry about his team more than taking out a shower that's not hurting anybody!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TommyJohn
01-04-2004, 05:05 AM
Originally posted by soxguy
Whats next? The urinal deoderizer is not a fresh enuff scent for you

You know, now that you've brought it up....

Dan H
01-04-2004, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Who cares about a shower being removed? Is that a reason to go to a game? Why isn't anyone bringing up the other Veeck tradition, the barber in CF? The shower was up at old Comiskey for only 4 or 5 years, it was taken down when Veeck sold the team. It was up at the new park for 4 or 5 years. What's the big deal? Its a cold shower that was hardly ever used. Hardly a White Sox tradition. Get over it.

How useful the shower is not the point. It is a symbol of one of the best loved Sox teams ever. A team's present is always tied to its past. Forget the past, lose the present. That is one thing this ownership doesn't understand. White Sox history didn't begin in 1981.

gosox41
01-04-2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Dan H
How useful the shower is not the point. It is a symbol of one of the best loved Sox teams ever. A team's present is always tied to its past. Forget the past, lose the present. That is one thing this ownership doesn't understand. White Sox history didn't begin in 1981.

I can't believe there's all this debate over a shower. It must really show how Sox fans think they're team is going to be next year becasue no one wants to talk about the garbage they're putting on the field.

My guess is JR is playing hardball with the plumbers union to get more money. I'm betting the shower will still be there and operating come Opening Day.

Bob

Realist
01-04-2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Dan H
How useful the shower is not the point. It is a symbol of one of the best loved Sox teams ever. A team's present is always tied to its past. Forget the past, lose the present. That is one thing this ownership doesn't understand. White Sox history didn't begin in 1981.

Very concise and well written post. You got to the point of the entire thread in one paragraph. This thread isn't really about the "shower". It's about different approaches to history and how important a role history plays in the present and in the future.

Removal of the shower represents yet another disengagement with history. Some will find this disheartening and dissapointing while others will wonder what the big deal is all about.

CubKilla
01-04-2004, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I can't believe there's all this debate over a shower. It must really show how Sox fans think they're team is going to be next year becasue no one wants to talk about the garbage they're putting on the field.

Exactly. Why discuss a team with more holes than swiss cheese when we can further curse the name of JR and his cheapness? Busting on JR has become somewhat of a pasttime for me seeing as he hasn't done much of anything in 20+ except have the State build the White Sox an albatross of a ballpark, relegate the White Sox to a 2nd team in the 2nd City, lead the MLB owners in 94's player Lock Out, the White Flag in '97, kicking Carlton Fisk in the nads..... do I need to go on?

Possibly removing the shower in LF, while not particularly bothersome to me, still represents a removal of a White Sox fan tradition since the '60's and is further proof that JR really doesn't have Clue 1 with regards to his fanbase.

dickallen15
01-04-2004, 12:23 PM
Bill Veeck installed the shower at old Comiskey in 1976, whether it was there when he owned the team before, I do not know. It was removed for the 1981 season. So it was there for 5 seasons, one of which was decent, the other four, awful. It isn't the great tradition many are building it up to be. Its not unique. Every residence has one, every hotel room. Its a cold shower, take one before you go to the game. If you do it at home you can use soap, and take all you clothes off.

voodoochile
01-04-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Bill Veeck installed the shower at old Comiskey in 1976, whether it was there when he owned the team before, I do not know. It was removed for the 1981 season. So it was there for 5 seasons, one of which was decent, the other four, awful. It isn't the great tradition many are building it up to be. Its not unique. Every residence has one, every hotel room. Its a cold shower, take one before you go to the game. If you do it at home you can use soap, and take all you clothes off.

You know who's fault this is? It's JR's fault. He's the one who made a big deal about keeping the original showerhead and making sure fans could enjoy some nostalgia and tradition at the new park. In fact it is the ONLY bit of nostalgia and tradition he brought across the street. Now 14 years later he is ripping out that piece of tradition.

He hyped it.

He created it.

He built it.

He quit on it when it wasn't cost effective anymore.

It's like they are tearing down the old ballpark all over again - at least emotionally...

joecrede
01-04-2004, 01:05 PM
I hope this thread never ends and I hope the shower is gone unless the chairman can find the gaudiest sponsorship possible for it. :gulp:

voodoochile
01-04-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I hope this thread never ends and I hope the shower is gone unless the chairman can find the gaudiest sponsorship possible for it. :gulp:

If we can get it to 200 posts, maybe someone will create a tag with a showerhead on it. The Showerhead Thread Award - for any thread with at least 200 passionate replys...

joecrede
01-04-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If we can get it to 200 posts, maybe someone will create a tag with a showerhead on it. The Showerhead Thread Award - for any thread with at least 200 passionate replys...

Excellent idea.

dickallen15
01-04-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You know who's fault this is? It's JR's fault. He's the one who made a big deal about keeping the original showerhead and making sure fans could enjoy some nostalgia and tradition at the new park. In fact it is the ONLY bit of nostalgia and tradition he brought across the street. Now 14 years later he is ripping out that piece of tradition.

He hyped it.

He created it.

He built it.

He quit on it when it wasn't cost effective anymore.

It's like they are tearing down the old ballpark all over again - at least emotionally...

The shower hasn't been in the new park for more than 5 or 6 years. He got someone to sponsor it, and wanted to raise the sponsorship fees. The group declined. Therefore, they get no advertising at the park, and Hawk and DJ don't mention it on their telecasts. That was their decision. They did what was right for their business. The costs of running the shower must be very minimal, I'll give you that, but the original post suggested it would have to be moved anyway. So relocating a shower that I'm sure no more than 1% of the fans use anyway doesn't make much sense for the team. The White Sox top 3 all time attendance records were recorded at this park without a shower. The reaction to this removal, which as far as I can tell hasn't been totally confirmed yet, is unbelievable.

CubKilla
01-04-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Therefore, they get no advertising at the park, and Hawk and DJ don't mention it on their telecasts.

True. But Gallas and Co. hyped it last year in those awful Sox TV commercials.

dickallen15
01-04-2004, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
True. But Gallas and Co. hyped it last year in those awful Sox TV commercials.

They also hyped Jerry Manuel. There's always the Rain Room, another White Sox tradition.

anewman35
01-04-2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
You know who's fault this is? It's JR's fault. He's the one who made a big deal about keeping the original showerhead and making sure fans could enjoy some nostalgia and tradition at the new park. In fact it is the ONLY bit of nostalgia and tradition he brought across the street. Now 14 years later he is ripping out that piece of tradition.

He hyped it.

He created it.

He built it.

He quit on it when it wasn't cost effective anymore.

It's like they are tearing down the old ballpark all over again - at least emotionally...

I don't recall ever seeing the shower massively hyped, and also don't think it's been there since the new park was built (although it's possible I'm wrong, but I could swear that at least for a season it was sitting in the "White Sox Hall Of Fame", but wasn't usuable). I bet you 99% of people in the city (hell, 99% of White Sox fans in general, probably), don't even know the shower is there, and won't miss it a bit. People here tend to blow everything out of proportion, thinking the public will care, and it's just not going to happen.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-04-2004, 03:40 PM
The shower was reintroduced in either 1998 or 1999. There won't be a public outcry because most of the public aren't Sox Fans. Nobody cares about the Sox except Sox Fans. Isn't that obvious?

Nothing around here is ever blown out of proportion by Sox Fan standards. We're a self-selected group posting here. The fact this thread is approaching 200 replies is more than enough evidence that there is plenty of angst about removing the shower amongst the only constituency that counts: Sox Fans.

anewman35
01-04-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Nothing around here is ever blown out of proportion by Sox Fan standards. We're a self-selected group posting here. The fact this thread is approaching 200 replies is more than enough evidence that there is plenty of angst about removing the shower amongst the only constituency that counts: Sox Fans.

My theory is this: the Sox fans who post here are mostly really hardcore Sox fans, otherwise they wouldn't spend so much time posting on a message board. Even for a team like the Sox, the hardcore fans are a small percentage of "Sox fans" in general. If you just asked random people at a game, I think you'd get a much smaller percentage of people caring about the shower.

ChiWhiteSox1337
01-04-2004, 04:19 PM
I have a good idea. Aquafina should just sponsor the shower instead of that stupid bottle cam contest during the inninngs!

TornLabrum
01-04-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by ChiWhiteSox1337
I have a good idea. Aquafina should just sponsor the shower instead of that stupid bottle cam contest during the inninngs!

Yeah, but then they'd have to pipe in the water from Munster, IN, because it's their city water that Aquafina bottles.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-04-2004, 04:49 PM
Torn is right. Don't drink Aquafina. It's Pepsi-Cola water without the caramel coloring or sugar. Ditto for Dasani; it's Coke water with a few silly vitamins added in.

Mmm... how about a refreshing *spring* water like Ice Mountain! Alpine Valley gets my recommendation for home delivery, too (NW Indiana). :smile:

Palehose13
01-04-2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Torn is right. Don't drink Aquafina. It's Pepsi-Cola water without the caramel coloring or sugar. Ditto for Dasani; it's Coke water with a few silly vitamins added in.

Mmm... how about a refreshing *spring* water like Ice Mountain! Alpine Valley gets my recommendation for home delivery, too (NW Indiana). :smile:

I know this is waaaaay off topic, but "spring" water isn't held to the same standards as tap water. In fact, many spring waters are dirtier than the other bottled waters that come from municipal water facilities (Dasani, Aquafina). If you fell the need to drink cleaner water than what's from the tap, get a Brita pitcher or filter. If you have to drink bottled water (on the road and you don't want soda), I suggest not drinking the ones from the spring...they don't have to go through filtration before it is bottled.

With that being said...I can't believe how many people are posting about the shower!

voodoochile
01-04-2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
I know this is waaaaay off topic, but "spring" water isn't held to the same standards as tap water. In fact, many spring waters are dirtier than the other bottled waters that come from municipal water facilities (Dasani, Aquafina). If you fell the need to drink cleaner water than what's from the tap, get a Brita pitcher or filter. If you have to drink bottled water (on the road and you don't want soda), I suggest not drinking the ones from the spring...they don't have to go through filtration before it is bottled.

With that being said...I can't believe how many people are posting about the shower!

The other problem with bottled water is bacteria. Because it sits at room temperature for long periods of time before being sold, it is an ideal breeding ground.

CubKilla
01-05-2004, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Palehose13
With that being said...I can't believe how many people are posting about the shower!

With the flurry of activity that has been the '03-'04 White Sox offseason thus far, I can see why :D:

Iwritecode
01-05-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
If we can get it to 200 posts, maybe someone will create a tag with a showerhead on it. The Showerhead Thread Award - for any thread with at least 200 passionate replys...

The showerhead award?

You mean you want to replace the coveted double-tomato award?

Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me... :smile:

voodoochile
01-05-2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
With the flurry of activity that has been the '03-'04 White Sox offseason thus far, I can see why :D:

Isn't that so Sox?

I mean here it is January and the only bit of news the fans have to talk about is the damned showerhead and the reconstruction.

Iwritecode
01-05-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Isn't that so Sox?

I mean here it is January and the only bit of news the fans have to talk about is the damned showerhead and the reconstruction.

Yep, it's sad when there have been more improvements made to the staduim than the team. I can just imagine standing in line at Soxfest:

"So how do you think that new roof is going to do this year?"

:(:

voodoochile
01-05-2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
Yep, it's sad when there have been more improvements made to the staduim than the team. I can just imagine standing in line at Soxfest:

"So how do you think that new roof is going to do this year?"


:hawk
"Mercy - here comes another thunderhead. Looks like we are in for another delay here early in this mid-April game. You know I realize the Sox are off to a bad start this season. Who would have thunk that Shoeneweiss and Rauch would struggle so much as starters and that Konerko would continue to struggle at the plate so much? Still, the new roof has me looking up. I mean you can now sit down to almost the upper deck railing and not get wet. I remember way back when I was playing, none of the stadiums had roofs. It was only in the last few years that you could get a roof over your seat. Man fans used to cry everytime it rained, because they knew they would get soaked. Roofs on stadiums, who'd a thunk it?"

:DJ
"Oh come on. The old Comiskey was completely roofed over. Fans never got wet unless they wanted to."

:hawk
"Yep, that is exactly why they installed the showerhead in the first place. I remember ole' Bill Veeck sitting watching fans getting wet in the stands during a game and he said, 'We need to offer this as an attraction. How expensive can it be to run a shower 81 days a year 3 hours a day?' Of course our current ownership found out just how expensive it truly is and ended the practice. Now you can see all the kids sitting down below the roof line to make up for it."

:DJ
"Those aren't kids, that's a pack of drunken midgets who got kicked out of the Bullpen Sports bar for fondeling the waitresses. I ran into them on the concourse a while ago. They are mean little bastards."

:hawk
"Ah yes... nothing beats the joy of a child playing in the rain. That JR he got it right. He realized the shower could never compare to the real thing. Showerhead 'au naturale' I call it. In fact back when I was playing, that was the only kind of showerhead we had. Guys like Stinky Patterson didn't get their nicknames by accident you know. He just refused to go get clean in the rain when it happened because he was afraid of thunder."

:DJ
"You just make this crap up don't you?"

:hawk
'Yep, ole's stinky could really clear a room after a couple of days without rain. But, he could hit the ball a mile. I remember him hitting 4 over the ole' Comiskey's roof in one game. I had to hit five the next day just to show him it wasn't hard."

:DJ
"Sure you did Hawk, sure you did..."

Iwritecode
01-05-2004, 12:34 PM
Lol, Good stuff VC.

Say... We aren't just spamming this thread so that it hits 200 are we? I couldn't imagine anyone here doing such a thing...


I hope WU isn't too busy so he can whip up a good graphic for the award...

ewokpelts
01-05-2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
:hawk
"Mercy - here comes another thunderhead. Looks like we are in for another delay here early in this mid-April game. You know I realize the Sox are off to a bad start this season. Who would have thunk that Shoeneweiss and Rauch would struggle so much as starters and that Konerko would continue to struggle at the plate so much? Still, the new roof has me looking up. I mean you can now sit down to almost the upper deck railing and not get wet. I remember way back when I was playing, none of the stadiums had roofs. It was only in the last few years that you could get a roof over your seat. Man fans used to cry everytime it rained, because they knew they would get soaked. Roofs on stadiums, who'd a thunk it?"

:DJ
"Oh come on. The old Comiskey was completely roofed over. Fans never got wet unless they wanted to."

:hawk
"Yep, that is exactly why they installed the showerhead in the first place. I remember ole' Bill Veeck sitting watching fans getting wet in the stands during a game and he said, 'We need to offer this as an attraction. How expensive can it be to run a shower 81 days a year 3 hours a day?' Of course our current ownership found out just how expensive it truly is and ended the practice. Now you can see all the kids sitting down below the roof line to make up for it."

:DJ
"Those aren't kids, that's a pack of drunken midgets who got kicked out of the Bullpen Sports bar for fondeling the waitresses. I ran into them on the concourse a while ago. They are mean little bastards."

:hawk
"Ah yes... nothing beats the joy of a child playing in the rain. That JR he got it right. He realized the shower could never compare to the real thing. Showerhead 'au naturale' I call it. In fact back when I was playing, that was the only kind of showerhead we had. Guys like Stinky Patterson didn't get their nicknames by accident you know. He just refused to go get clean in the rain when it happened because he was afraid of thunder."

:DJ
"You just make this crap up don't you?"

:hawk
'Yep, ole's stinky could really clear a room after a couple of days without rain. But, he could hit the ball a mile. I remember him hitting 4 over the ole' Comiskey's roof in one game. I had to hit five the next day just to show him it wasn't hard."

:DJ
"Sure you did Hawk, sure you did..."

voodoo,
Are you on crack?
Gene

p.s. and to think i never even used the damm shower...

voodoochile
01-05-2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by ewokpelts
voodoo,
Are you on crack?
Gene

p.s. and to think i never even used the damm shower...

No, not on crack. It messes with my typing skills... :D:

phaedrus
01-05-2004, 01:01 PM
I just heard from the voice in my head that the Royals are prepared to make an offer to the shower head - 10 years, $50.00 dollars plus moving expenses.

(this post should in no way indicate that I made up the original rumor - it really did come from a high up at the plumber's union and as far as I know is 100% factual)

Chisox353014
01-05-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode

Say... We aren't just spamming this thread so that it hits 200 are we?

Let's trade the showerhead for Odalis Perez!


Post count +1

ode to veeck
01-05-2004, 03:51 PM
I heard Pete Rose bet on whether JR would remove the new shower or not and that has delayed his reinstatement to HOF consideration

Iwritecode
01-05-2004, 04:16 PM
Interesting note...

I asked my daughter the other day if she remembered going to the White Sox game and standing in the shower.

Her reply was "Yea! I want to do it again!"

JR needs to remember that it's the little things that count, not how much money it costs...

red faber
01-06-2004, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Bill Veeck installed the shower at old Comiskey in 1976, whether it was there when he owned the team before, I do not know. It was removed for the 1981 season. So it was there for 5 seasons, one of which was decent, the other four, awful. It isn't the great tradition many are building it up to be. Its not unique. Every residence has one, every hotel room. Its a cold shower, take one before you go to the game. If you do it at home you can use soap, and take all you clothes off.


it is unique in the fact that comiskey is the only park that has one!!

the whole point of it is to refresh yourself on a hot day at the ballpark.and why would you want to use soap while you are taking a cold shower anyway???you're not going to get very clean!!

so you mean to tell me that instead of refreshing yourself at the shower at the ball park,you would leave the ballpark just to go home to take a cold shower????

just because YOU don't appreciate the shower,doesn't mean that other people dont appreciate it!!!!!!

red faber
01-06-2004, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by anewman35
I don't recall ever seeing the shower massively hyped, and also don't think it's been there since the new park was built (although it's possible I'm wrong, but I could swear that at least for a season it was sitting in the "White Sox Hall Of Fame", but wasn't usuable). I bet you 99% of people in the city (hell, 99% of White Sox fans in general, probably), don't even know the shower is there, and won't miss it a bit. People here tend to blow everything out of proportion, thinking the public will care, and it's just not going to happen.


it's not about the public caring, it's about us sox fans caring.

after all that is why this website is called"white sox interactive"

and i don't think this is being blown out of proportion at all!!!

the fact is this shower rumor(and quite frankly i don't think that it is just a rumor)is just a microcosm of reinsdorks ways!!

Realist
01-06-2004, 05:08 AM
It's 4:15 am. You're all sleeping and this is post 200 for the "shower head".

:gulp:

SSN721
01-06-2004, 07:52 AM
How did this thread ever achieve this level of wackiness? :o: That being said I am too young to remember the shower at old Comiskey. But reading all these impassioned arguments for its removal/staying I feel that it obviously stirs the souls of many Sox faithful. The exact core of fans that JR complains he never has to support the team. Although I don't feel it will have any big effect on how many people come to games, I feel that more devoted fans do feel its chipping away at traditions, as quirky as they might be, and even though I have never used the shower I think it is a cheap move to eliminate it. Threw in my two cents, no point in rehashing all the other points in this unbelievably long thread. :D:

CLR01
01-06-2004, 08:00 AM
Not quite WU quality but its perfect.


http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/chisox716/shower.jpg

CLR01
01-06-2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by red faber
and i don't think this is being blown out of proportion at all!!!



No not at all. A 200+ post thead and a fox news type survey about a SHOWER HEAD is in no way blown out of proportion.

dickallen15
01-06-2004, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by red faber
it is unique in the fact that comiskey is the only park that has one!!

the whole point of it is to refresh yourself on a hot day at the ballpark.and why would you want to use soap while you are taking a cold shower anyway???you're not going to get very clean!!

so you mean to tell me that instead of refreshing yourself at the shower at the ball park,you would leave the ballpark just to go home to take a cold shower????

just because YOU don't appreciate the shower,doesn't mean that other people dont appreciate it!!!!!!

Go to the Rain Room. I don't see that advertised at other ballparks, and its been at the Cell longer than the shower. What I'm saying is this is blown way out of proportion. Its one single shower. If it was so popular, you would have to wait for hours to use it. Every time I've been by it, I could hop right in if I wanted. I understand people appreciate it, but its apparent removal should have no affect on the quality of your day at the ballpark.

Iwritecode
01-06-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by CLR01
No not at all. A 200+ post thead and a fox news type survey about a SHOWER HEAD is in no way blown out of proportion.

But a 100+ post thread about tomatoes, that's just crazy...

:smile:

voodoochile
01-06-2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
But a 100+ post thread about tomatoes, that's just crazy...

:smile:

Yes, it is. Well, that was designed craziness. This was spontaneous. Still, a great thread. Solid arguments on both sides. Not a lot of filler or spam. This is a great thread and deserves a tag to memorialize it.

The difference between this and the tomato award is the nature of the beast. Tomato awards are for threads that are light, casual or are expected to break 100 (Sox V Twins thread in May for example). The Showerhead Award has to have 200 PASSIONATE replys (The rightness of Frank beating the living snot out of Ozzie at the post game press conference in Mid-August with the Sox falling 10 games out of first and Ozzie saying, "Frank's .285, 35, 95 are great, but if he would just learn to bunt he would be a complete player.") :D:

Still, I look forward to a graphic to immortalize this thread...

ewokpelts
01-06-2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
The rightness of Frank beating the living snot out of Ozzie at the post game press conference in Mid-August with the Sox falling 10 games out of first and Ozzie saying, "Frank's .285, 35, 95 are great, but if he would just learn to bunt he would be a complete player.") :D:



Voodoo,

I was wrong....you're on exhaust fumes...
Gene

Whitesox029
01-07-2004, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by munchman33
Jeez, I didn't mean to cause a stir.

All I'm saying is its not like that shower is drawing people to the ballpark. Perhaps something else in its place could, like a small arcade for children, I don't know.

But if you want to get mad at someone for this, get mad at the people who don't come to games and force management to both cost cut and search for new streams of revenue.

It's becoming so passe to target management when it comes to people not showing up. If they were truly fans, they would come regardless. I do.

The idea of an arcade in a baseball park is almost as pointless as a swimming pool. First, what father (or mother for that matter) who has just paid a wad of cash to see a baseball game is going to stand in an arcade with their children and throw away what's left of their money? Second, any child who would rather be in an arcade than watching the game was not worth buying a ticket for. We should be teaching the kids about being sox fans and how to resist peer pressure toward Flubfandom. My father has told me stories about being at sox games and wanting to leave in the 9th to get ahead of traffic, and me making scenes beacuse I wanted to watch the game. Why aren't there any kids like that now? WHo's going to run this wesite when we're all dead and gone? Or will there be no more White Sox baseball in chicago by then?
Though I believe everything is the fault of management, you are not totally wrong though munchman. It's not the players' fault that we can't sign a player like Colon..how do the other players feel when we don't show up--they get down, and they lose (THough somehow the flubs manage to lose even with half the freaking city in their ballpark every day). In conclusion, the shower stays.

red faber
01-07-2004, 12:13 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Go to the Rain Room. I don't see that advertised at other ballparks, and its been at the Cell longer than the shower. What I'm saying is this is blown way out of proportion. Its one single shower. If it was so popular, you would have to wait for hours to use it. Every time I've been by it, I could hop right in if I wanted. I understand people appreciate it, but its apparent removal should have no affect on the quality of your day at the ballpark.

yeah,that's true.

but it's not exactly effecting the quality of anybody's day at the ballpark in a negative manner as it is now.
so just let it be!!!!

red faber
01-07-2004, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
The idea of an arcade in a baseball park is almost as pointless as a swimming pool. First, what father (or mother for that matter) who has just paid a wad of cash to see a baseball game is going to stand in an arcade with their children and throw away what's left of their money? Second, any child who would rather be in an arcade than watching the game was not worth buying a ticket for. We should be teaching the kids about being sox fans and how to resist peer pressure toward Flubfandom. My father has told me stories about being at sox games and wanting to leave in the 9th to get ahead of traffic, and me making scenes beacuse I wanted to watch the game. Why aren't there any kids like that now? WHo's going to run this wesite when we're all dead and gone? Or will there be no more White Sox baseball in chicago by then?
Though I believe everything is the fault of management, you are not totally wrong though munchman. It's not the players' fault that we can't sign a player like Colon..how do the other players feel when we don't show up--they get down, and they lose (THough somehow the flubs manage to lose even with half the freaking city in their ballpark every day). In conclusion, the shower stays.


why should we show up when they don't have a sincere commitment to winning????????

you spend money,you make money,if you're running a business.

it's just that simple!!!!!

CubKilla
01-07-2004, 01:13 AM
If JR does, indeed, remove the Veeck showerhead due to lack of sponsorship in '04, what are the chances that he tries to profit further by making it available for auction at '04's SoxFest?

:reinsy

"I'm glad I just thought of that."

kempsted
01-07-2004, 09:51 AM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

Whitesox029
01-07-2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by red faber
why should we show up when they don't have a sincere commitment to winning????????

you spend money,you make money,if you're running a business.

it's just that simple!!!!!

All I meant was that by not showing we are punishing the players more than the management. They don't deserve to play in an empty stadium just because ownership does stupid things. On top of that, we're punishing ourselves, the fans, because without attendance the players will not perform to their ability and therefore we will lose. The bad outweighs the good in boycotting. If we want to punish ownership a better way to do it would be boycotting vendors and stands. Stop at Burger King on the way to the game, and eat your burger in the car. Or maybe do some tailgating--bring the Mini-Weber and grill up some patties from home. You'll save some money and punish Reinsdorf at the same time. The downside? You may not finish your Burger King coke by the time you get to the park.

ode to veeck
01-07-2004, 10:17 PM
I say we spam this thread with passionate messages until someone goes up with thenew graphic for the shower thread award --- I'm too tired to muck around with photophop at the moment--- were there any shower photos in the new sox photo archive pointed to in another thread?

foulkesfan11
01-07-2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Maybe my next dump in the left field latrine will have to be sponsored

:reinsy

So will the tissue you use

You crack me up. :D:

SSN721
01-08-2004, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
Or maybe do some tailgating--bring the Mini-Weber and grill up some patties from home.

I recommend the Weber Q grill, excellent table top grill, think I can fit about 10-12 burgers on mine. :)

voodoochile
01-08-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
I say we spam this thread with passionate messages until someone goes up with thenew graphic for the shower thread award --- I'm too tired to muck around with photophop at the moment--- were there any shower photos in the new sox photo archive pointed to in another thread?

I'll write to WU and see if he can whip something up and post it in this thread...

WinningUgly!
01-08-2004, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck
I say we spam this thread with passionate messages until someone goes up with thenew graphic for the shower thread award --- I'm too tired to muck around with photophop at the moment--- were there any shower photos in the new sox photo archive pointed to in another thread?


Originally posted by voodoochile


I'll write to WU and see if he can whip something up and post it in this thread...






http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/showerhead.GIF

voodoochile
01-08-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/showerhead.GIF

Great job as usual, WU... :D:

WinningUgly!
01-08-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Great job as usual, WU... :D:

Thanks. :gulp: :gulp:

ode to veeck
01-08-2004, 05:47 PM
Kudos to Winning Ugly!

Put it in the tags!

back to your regularly scheduled shower debate ...

JKryl
01-13-2004, 05:12 PM
This is just indicative of a larger problem. Every time they try to become, "fan friendly" on one front, Jerry manages to shoot himself in the foot again. Take last year, and closing off the lower deck to the peons. He ought to come out and just say he did it because he wants more people to buy lower deck tickets. This silly excuse that it's to keep the drunks off the field is insulting. In Jerry's case, tradition is something in the way of a fast buck, like Andy the Clown not getting a lower deck seat, and the rest of the little things that Veeck did to appeal to the rest of us. :gulp:

ode to veeck
01-14-2004, 07:41 PM
In Jerry's case, tradition is something in the way of a fast buck

Good candidate for quote of the week ... or at least yesterday's intelligent extension of the infamous shower thread

Welcome to WSI JKryl!

Whitesox029
01-14-2004, 08:34 PM
I am the honorary 224th person to post a reply to this thread. What is the record?

SSN721
01-15-2004, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
I am the honorary 224th person to post a reply to this thread. What is the record?

I think there is still quite aways to go for breaking that, but I dont really know for sure. Just wanted to add another post to the never ending thread. When did they announce last year that they closed down the lower concourse to upper deck ticket holders, never even heard an excuse for why. Only found out when I was at opening day last year and my father and I argued with a customer service rep til they would take us down since we were bored and had like that 4-5 hour rain delay. We were quite upset about it cuz I didnt know about that policy til that day. Now that I heard that excuse I am even more upset, it such a lame one. :angry:

thepaulbowski
01-15-2004, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by SSN721
I think there is still quite aways to go for breaking that, but I dont really know for sure. Just wanted to add another post to the never ending thread. When did they announce last year that they closed down the lower concourse to upper deck ticket holders, never even heard an excuse for why. Only found out when I was at opening day last year and my father and I argued with a customer service rep til they would take us down since we were bored and had like that 4-5 hour rain delay. We were quite upset about it cuz I didnt know about that policy til that day. Now that I heard that excuse I am even more upset, it such a lame one. :angry:

They announced it shortly after the Dybas (sp?) incident, I believe.

ode to veeck
01-15-2004, 09:44 AM
I am the honorary 224th person to post a reply to this thread. What is the record?

I don't think we're even close. I have no idea what the record is, but distinctly remember some game day threads during the Flubs playoffs last fall that hit four tomatoes---arguably a much more trivial topic to Sox fans than the outfield shower

SSN721
01-15-2004, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
They announced it shortly after the Dybas (sp?) incident, I believe.

Thanks, I am just suprised that I never heard about it.

anewman35
01-15-2004, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
They announced it shortly after the Dybas (sp?) incident, I believe.

Of course, for the last few seasons, sold out games (Opening Day, Cubs games) already had that policy in place. The only change that took place in the middle of last season was extending it to all games.

PaleHoseGeorge
01-15-2004, 07:38 PM
This thread is in the top-5 for responses. However it is not even in the top-10 for views. This does not count any of the game threads.

ode to veeck
01-15-2004, 09:59 PM
This thread is in the top-5 for responses. However it is not even in the top-10 for views.

I guess that's why its the end of the line for the shower, not enough visibility

doctor30th
01-15-2004, 10:12 PM
I heard they are going to replace it with James Baldwin who will spit chaw juice at the little kids. Apparently the up keep will be cheaper.

Whitesox029
01-15-2004, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by thepaulbowski
They announced it shortly after the Dybas (sp?) incident, I believe.

Speaking of the Dybas incident: I don't know if I ever announced this on a thread--I may have--but he's the son of my dad's friend. Good friend I mean--we were at opening day with the guy. His dad says he is indeed a cubs fan, but he doesn't know where the evil influence came from.

red faber
01-16-2004, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
All I meant was that by not showing we are punishing the players more than the management. They don't deserve to play in an empty stadium just because ownership does stupid things. On top of that, we're punishing ourselves, the fans, because without attendance the players will not perform to their ability and therefore we will lose. The bad outweighs the good in boycotting. If we want to punish ownership a better way to do it would be boycotting vendors and stands. Stop at Burger King on the way to the game, and eat your burger in the car. Or maybe do some tailgating--bring the Mini-Weber and grill up some patties from home. You'll save some money and punish Reinsdorf at the same time. The downside? You may not finish your Burger King coke by the time you get to the park.


well in that case the players gripe should be with ownership for doing stupid things that make us not want to go,not us fans for not going!!!!!

red faber
01-16-2004, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
All I meant was that by not showing we are punishing the players more than the management. They don't deserve to play in an empty stadium just because ownership does stupid things. On top of that, we're punishing ourselves, the fans, because without attendance the players will not perform to their ability and therefore we will lose. The bad outweighs the good in boycotting. If we want to punish ownership a better way to do it would be boycotting vendors and stands. Stop at Burger King on the way to the game, and eat your burger in the car. Or maybe do some tailgating--bring the Mini-Weber and grill up some patties from home. You'll save some money and punish Reinsdorf at the same time. The downside? You may not finish your Burger King coke by the time you get to the park.


what you fail to realize is that the ticket money is the main priority,not concession money,and also if you get ticket money you're going to get concession money anyway.and as far as the players not being motivated....those guys are supposed to be professionals,and if you have to depend on other people,or other factors to motivate you,then you have absolutely NO BUSINESS calling yourself a professional.and as far as eating before you get to the ballpark,burger king sucks.....if it wasn't for those ocassional $0.99 whoppers i wouldn't patronize those places at all.and as far as tailgating,i'd actually do that if it weren't for the fact that i don't have a car!!!!

bottom line:if you get the ticket money,concession money won't matter as much...

TommyJohn
01-16-2004, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
(The rightness of Frank beating the living snot out of Ozzie at the post game press conference in Mid-August with the Sox falling 10 games out of first and Ozzie saying, "Frank's .285, 35, 95 are great, but if he would just learn to bunt he would be a complete player.") :D:


Now THAT would be fun to watch.

CubKilla
01-16-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
Speaking of the Dybas incident: His dad says he is indeed a cubs fan, but he doesn't know where the evil influence came from.

Krausening poisoning

Whitesox029
01-16-2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by red faber
what you fail to realize is that the ticket money is the main priority,not concession money,and also if you get ticket money you're going to get concession money anyway.and as far as the players not being motivated....those guys are supposed to be professionals,and if you have to depend on other people,or other factors to motivate you,then you have absolutely NO BUSINESS calling yourself a professional.and as far as eating before you get to the ballpark,burger king sucks.....if it wasn't for those ocassional $0.99 whoppers i wouldn't patronize those places at all.and as far as tailgating,i'd actually do that if it weren't for the fact that i don't have a car!!!!

bottom line:if you get the ticket money,concession money won't matter as much...

First and foremost, I would like to point to the fact that we are digging our own grave. One of the main things the media and their flubby fan friends get on our collective case about is that we can't fill our ballpark. If we could fill our park every day it would be with real fans. We would have a full house of real fans every single game, while the Northsiders wouls have a full house of the usual 25% real fans and 75% drunks and sightseers. For once we would be one up on them as far as attendance. Aside from that, we are in a battle with Jerry in which we have what he wants, and he has what we want. We want his money for the team, he wants our money for himself. As it is now, we're only giving him enough for himself, which is evidently his top priority. We can't be punishing him too much here because we are never ever going to have a winner unless we show. We have to give in first and give him what he wants first because he's not going to give in to us. This is my true argument for filling the park.

Secondly and less importantly I was using Burger King as an example. Substitute your favorite fast food restaurant in its place if you like. (Personally I don't like Burger King much anyway..I prefer White Castle, McDonalds or Arby's).

Lip Man 1
01-16-2004, 07:33 PM
In the business world it's up to the business to attract customers with a quality product.

The White Sox are a business (according to ownership and many fans here at WSI)

Question: Then why is it up to the customers to show up in droves before the business improves their product?????

Please educate me on this.

Lip

Whitesox029
01-16-2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
In the business world it's up to the business to attract customers with a quality product.

The White Sox are a business (according to ownership and many fans here at WSI)

Question: Then why is it up to the customers to show up in droves before the business improves their product?????

Please educate me on this.

Lip
Will do.
Unlike most other businesses, the customers of this "business" WANT it to succeed, not so much moneywise, but successwise. In other businesses, there is no other kind of success..there is only money. In other businesses, a "quality product," as you put it, is constant. If Burger King makes a good burger, but so does McDonalds, they can compete. The mere fact that roughly half of all teams are over .500 every year mathematically determines the fate of the other 50%. Not all teams can go 100-62. What's my point? In other businesses, customer support depends on a good product. Bad burgers? No customers. In baseball, it's the reverse. A good product depends on customers showing up (At least this is the way it should be if we want a win-win situation). That's why we can't look at baseball in that same "business" light. When we wait for the owner to crack first, we are mired in a win-lose situation--Jerry wins, and we lose. If we show, we win, and so does he. Either way he's going to win. Don't get into a battle with him.

voodoochile
01-16-2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
Will do.
Unlike most other businesses, the customers of this "business" WANT it to succeed, not so much moneywise, but successwise. In other businesses, there is no other kind of success..there is only money. In other businesses, a "quality product," as you put it, is constant. If Burger King makes a good burger, but so does McDonalds, they can compete. The mere fact that roughly half of all teams are over .500 every year mathematically determines the fate of the other 50%. Not all teams can go 100-62. What's my point? In other businesses, customer support depends on a good product. Bad burgers? No customers. In baseball, it's the reverse. A good product depends on customers showing up (At least this is the way it should be if we want a win-win situation). That's why we can't look at baseball in that same "business" light. When we wait for the owner to crack first, we are mired in a win-lose situation--Jerry wins, and we lose. If we show, we win, and so does he. Either way he's going to win. Don't get into a battle with him.

Okay, nice and slow...

HE STARTED IT!

And he continues to take shots at the fans through the years. Besides, what guarantee do the fans have that JR will EVER do whatever it takes to win it all? We have none. In fact, we have 23 years of bottom line based deals, quick surrenders and lip service - and even the lip service has been half-assed, IMO.

You want to see more fans at the park?

:selljerry

I'll almost guarantee they sell 1K season ticket packages the next day...

Whitesox029
01-17-2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Okay, nice and slow...

HE STARTED IT!

And he continues to take shots at the fans through the years. Besides, what guarantee do the fans have that JR will EVER do whatever it takes to win it all? We have none. In fact, we have 23 years of bottom line based deals, quick surrenders and lip service - and even the lip service has been half-assed, IMO.

You want to see more fans at the park?

:selljerry

I'll almost guarantee they sell 1K season ticket packages the next day...

To put it simply, we are at his mercy. If we give him our money, he can get a team together. He may not, but at least he CAN. If we don't give him our money, not only does he not want to do it, he's got the best excuse there is---NOT ENOUGH MONEY.

I agree with you otherwise though. Reinsdorf has got to be one of the least fan-friendly owners in baseball. What we really need is for someone to come up with an idea that will make him sell the team. (i.e., If enough fans pledge to buy 2004 season tickets, Jerry will publish a newspaper statement that he would agree to sell the team after the 2004 season. Disclaimer: DO NOT think that I think this will actually work. It is an EXAMPLE!! DO NOT QUOTE ME!).

Lip Man 1
01-18-2004, 12:04 AM
Former long time Sox fan and sportswriter Bill Gleason once wagered Uncle Jerry (in a column) that the day he announces he's giving up day to day control of the team the Sox would sell 1,000 new season ticket packages the next day.

He offered 1,000 bucks to go to the winner's favorite charity.

The point is Bill felt the same way...attendance issues disapper the day Uncle Jerry sells or departs this earth.

Lip

red faber
01-18-2004, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
First and foremost, I would like to point to the fact that we are digging our own grave. One of the main things the media and their flubby fan friends get on our collective case about is that we can't fill our ballpark. If we could fill our park every day it would be with real fans. We would have a full house of real fans every single game, while the Northsiders wouls have a full house of the usual 25% real fans and 75% drunks and sightseers. For once we would be one up on them as far as attendance. Aside from that, we are in a battle with Jerry in which we have what he wants, and he has what we want. We want his money for the team, he wants our money for himself. As it is now, we're only giving him enough for himself, which is evidently his top priority. We can't be punishing him too much here because we are never ever going to have a winner unless we show. We have to give in first and give him what he wants first because he's not going to give in to us. This is my true argument for filling the park.

Secondly and less importantly I was using Burger King as an example. Substitute your favorite fast food restaurant in its place if you like. (Personally I don't like Burger King much anyway..I prefer White Castle, McDonalds or Arby's).


so what exactly are we supposed to do,give him money that he doesn't deserve??????

i kind of understand where you are coming from,but unfortunately your line of thinking doesn't work in the real world.

it is like this,you start a business,you put money in that business,you do the right moves for that business,then it will succeed,it's just that simple.if yankee fans had your line of thinking they wouldn't win championships. if you remember in the late 80's and the early 90's the yankees couldn't draw flies,and that is because they weren't WINNING!! and the minute they started winning is when their fans started coming back in droves
they weren't willing to accept anything less than an commitment to winning,so why should we white sox fans accept anything less that that?????

it's reinsdork's job to impress us not the other way around,and he should be the one to make the first step,not us.

there is no way i'm going to give him money in HOPE of him using it to improve the team.especially when there is no guarantee of him actually doing so!!!

if that's the case,then we might as well go to crappy restauraunts,and spend our money in them in HOPE of them using our money to improve their food.

it goes back to that old time-tested saying......

"you gotta spend money to make money"

and sports are absolutely NO exception to the rule!!!!

red faber
01-18-2004, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
Will do.
Unlike most other businesses, the customers of this "business" WANT it to succeed, not so much moneywise, but successwise. In other businesses, there is no other kind of success..there is only money. In other businesses, a "quality product," as you put it, is constant. If Burger King makes a good burger, but so does McDonalds, they can compete. The mere fact that roughly half of all teams are over .500 every year mathematically determines the fate of the other 50%. Not all teams can go 100-62. What's my point? In other businesses, customer support depends on a good product. Bad burgers? No customers. In baseball, it's the reverse. A good product depends on customers showing up (At least this is the way it should be if we want a win-win situation). That's why we can't look at baseball in that same "business" light. When we wait for the owner to crack first, we are mired in a win-lose situation--Jerry wins, and we lose. If we show, we win, and so does he. Either way he's going to win. Don't get into a battle with him.


no......a good product in sports depends on a good owner who wants to put out a good product!!!!

and he can put out a good product by getting money from fans,and he gets money from fans,BY NOT PISSING THEM OFF!!!!!

why should we give money to a guy that continually gives us B.S???????

and if we do go out to comiskey more often,who's to say that he won't just pocket that money as well??????.

why should we give money to a guy that we don't trust??????

gosox41
01-18-2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by red faber


and he can put out a good product by getting money from fans,and he gets money from fans,BY NOT PISSING THEM OFF!!!!!

why should we give money to a guy that continually gives us B.S???????


why should we give money to a guy that we don't trust??????


Time for a rant.


I've asked those same questions here before. And I've asked them to people that continually bash JR for just about anything he does to people who drive a couple hundered miles to see as many games as they can. The most popular answer is because of tradition. Most people have memories of their families going to Sox games when they were kids. That's why they won't give it up.

And I know certain traditions are important, but that's got to be the lamest reason to give someone you hate so much your money. Do people really think their relatives would have kept going to games in the name of tradition after being treated this way by JR. Ther are people here who spend countless hours ripping Sox ownership. Ye they still support the team by using escuses like "We're supporting the uniform, not theownership." Well, no, not really because these are the same people who think JR is making money hand over fist. So of course they're supporting him more then whatever rent-a-player the Sox happen to have in uninform that year.

I would love to see these JR bashers take action and not show up to games. But have you seen the list of those going to Sox Fest on another thread. Plenty of Sox bashers there. But now they're paying all this money to get smoke blown up their butt's by JR and his lackey's. Do they really do this so they can go have drinks with fellow WSI'ers, most of whom hate JR? Why not have a seperate meeting place and go drink there? Another lame excuse.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. All the talk in the world about hoping JR sells or spends more isn't going to matter one iota. Not showing up and giving JR your money will FORCE him to do something. But as long as fans continue to show and are pissed off, there's no reason for JR to do anything different then what he has been doing. JR doesn't allocate his money by the reasons people attend a game. It's all the same to him.

Bob

TornLabrum
01-18-2004, 10:50 AM
Since my son (now long moved out of the house and leading his own life) was old enough to go to games, I took him to as many games as either I could afford or that the quality of the club allowed.

We didn't go to many games in the late '80s for obvious reasons. We went to a lot of games, as many as two dozen a year, up to the strike. We went to about 5 games in 1995, and averaged about 5-10 a year through the late '90s when he left the nest.

Now that I'm on my own I follow the same procedure. I went to just under 20 games last year. I may go to about 5 this year.

Whitesox029
01-19-2004, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by red faber


it is like this,you start a business,you put money in that business,you do the right moves for that business,then it will succeed,it's just that simple.if yankee fans had your line of thinking they wouldn't win championships. if you remember in the late 80's and the early 90's the yankees couldn't draw flies,and that is because they weren't WINNING!! and the minute they started winning is when their fans started coming back in droves
they weren't willing to accept anything less than an commitment to winning,so why should we white sox fans accept anything less that that?????

it's reinsdork's job to impress us not the other way around,and he should be the one to make the first step,not us.

there is no way i'm going to give him money in HOPE of him using it to improve the team.especially when there is no guarantee of him actually doing so!!!

if that's the case,then we might as well go to crappy restauraunts,and spend our money in them in HOPE of them using our money to improve their food.

it goes back to that old time-tested saying......

"you gotta spend money to make money"

and sports are absolutely NO exception to the rule!!!!

To get down to the bare bones of my argument--yes, sports is an exception to the rule.
In most businesses, success means one thing--make a profit. In sports and maybe a few select other businesses (an example of which I cannot think at the moment) there are two kinds of success--the money kind and the championship kind. To illustrate this, I use the example of Tribune Co. and the Cubs. The Trib makes a killing on the team each year. They are a financial success. An example of the type of success that your local Taco Bell strives for. The Cubs however are by no means an example of championship success to date. Not even close. Maybe this is due to the fact that the trib could care less about winning because they're making money, or it may just be Cubness. Either way, there are two kinds of success in sports.

You say "you gotta spend money to make money." This phrase can be loosely rearranged to say "You gotta spend money to get what you want" and then rearranged again to say "You gotta spend money to see a championship team on the field."

My last thing is that this is a standstill that benefits no one but Uncle Jerry. Like it or not, he does not care about the fans. Thus, he IS NEVER GOING TO make the proverbial "first move." We must make a move. If he does make a second move in response--great. If not, tough cookies. We take our move back and stop attending again. It's a chance we have to take because things aren't getting any better as it is.

This is all theoretical of course, since I seem to be in the minority on this view and there's no way I could get the entire community of Sox fans to rally behind me in making this "first move."

Thank you for taking time to read my novel.

doctor30th
01-19-2004, 12:20 AM
Whitesox029 by what you say I'm am starting to believe you Call JR Uncle Jerry because he is literally your uncle. But I do think your argument has alot of merit. I definitely am planing on going to a minimum of 10 games this year (7-9 more than I have gone to in previous years) and am working overtime now to try and make that 20 or 30 games.

That way I am financially supporting the team and hopefully that money will go to improving the team ( though my contribution alone won't do much but buy a uniform for a player and some BP balls) . So hopefully I will see some WSI faces at the park.

voodoochile
01-19-2004, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Whitesox029
This is all theoretical of course, since I seem to be in the minority on this view and there's no way I could get the entire community of Sox fans to rally behind me in making this "first move."

Sure, I'll help make the first move. When exactly were you planning on picketing the ballpark with "Sell Jerry Sell" signs? I am SO there... :D:

The flubbies are an exception. When Addison and Clark became a huge adult playground a while back, the flubbies fell into a can't miss profit and attendance situation. Most teams aren't like that.

However, there is still the fact that the Sox are making the owners money every year, just by being the Sox. They've roughly matched the dow since JR bought the team in terms of profitability - not bad work if you can get it at all. The fact that they haven't realized this profit is an entirely different issue and one that hardly can be blamed on the fans. In addition it is another fact that separates baseball ownership from "regular business" ownership - where capital value is exclusively based on income and if you have a bunch of bad years in a row, the value of the franchise goes down.