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habibharu
12-24-2003, 12:43 PM
i too, like most sox fans, am disappointed at the what the sox have, (or havent) done this offseason. however i think that most of us are forgetting one minor detail: we already have a pretty solid team that underachieved this year. we got, caballo,mags, and hurt, who are awesome. we have E-LO, who's good for 15-18 wins, konerko,koch,and buehrle probably wont be as bad as they were last year, garland and crede will hopefully keep developing and turn into pretty good players, we got ozzie who should make a difference and we play in the AL central! of course i would like them to sign a couple pitchers and a stick, but we got a pretty solid team!

Iwritecode
12-24-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
i too, like most sox fans, am disappointed at the what the sox have, (or havent) done this offseason. however i think that most of us are forgetting one minor detail: we already have a pretty solid team that underachieved this year. we got, caballo,mags, and hurt, who are awesome. we have E-LO, who's good for 15-18 wins, konerko,koch,and buehrle probably wont be as bad as they were last year, garland and crede will hopefully keep developing and turn into pretty good players, we got ozzie who should make a difference and we play in the AL central! of course i would like them to sign a couple pitchers and a stick, but we got a pretty solid team!

I wouldn't quite say we have a solid team. More like we have a solid core. There's still a few missing pieces. Frank, Mags and Lee won't be able to carry the offense all by themselves. Ditto with Burly and Loaiza.

You're right that Konerko and Koch have nowhere to go but up...

TornLabrum
12-24-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode
You're right that Konerko and Koch have nowhere to go but up...

In smoke? In flames?

Lip Man 1
12-24-2003, 01:26 PM
Hab:

Just wondering....

Do you still believe in Santa, elves, the tooth fairy and Bigfoot?

:smile:

Lip

Iwritecode
12-24-2003, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
In smoke? In flames?

Up in smoke
That's where I want to be
'cause when i'm high
the world below
don't bother me



Sorry for the Cheech and Chong reference... :D:

Daver
12-24-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Hab:

Just wondering....

Do you still believe in Santa, elves, the tooth fairy and Bigfoot?

:smile:

Lip

Lip:

Just wondering......

Do you beleive in the Florida Marlins?

TornLabrum
12-24-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Lip:

Just wondering......

Do you beleive in the Florida Marlins?

Q. What to the Marlins have that the Sox don't?

A. Talent and a strong farm system.

kittle42
12-24-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Q. What to the Marlins have that the Sox don't?

A. Talent and a strong farm system.

And Tim Spooneybarger!

SoxxoS
12-24-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
Q. What to the Marlins have that the Sox don't?

A. Talent and a strong farm system.

If that isn't the truth. Comparing the Sox to the Marlins is like comparing Hitler to the Pope, there is no comparison.

The only thing they have in common is the low payroll, but they had no "dead weight" payroll like the Sox have with Konerko and Koch. That is 13 million, or almost 20% of the payroll on two bad players. The Marlins definitely didn't have that.

MarkV
12-24-2003, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
If that isn't the truth. Comparing the Sox to the Marlins is like comparing Hitler to the Pope, there is no comparison.

The only thing they have in common is the low payroll, but they had no "dead weight" payroll like the Sox have with Konerko and Koch. That is 13 million, or almost 20% of the payroll on two bad players. The Marlins definitely didn't have that.


Soxxos, I just noticed your location. Do you go to ASU? I graduated from ASU in May 2002.

doublem23
12-24-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
If that isn't the truth. Comparing the Sox to the Marlins is like comparing Hitler to the Pope, there is no comparison.

The only thing they have in common is the low payroll, but they had no "dead weight" payroll like the Sox have with Konerko and Koch. That is 13 million, or almost 20% of the payroll on two bad players. The Marlins definitely didn't have that.

At the start of last year I'd have taken Konerko over Lee and Koch/Urbina looked to be a push. We also have a better core than the Marlins. And if Jeff Conine can be a star on a World Series champion, I see no reason the Sox can't. Things just have to fall our way. Will they? Who knows. That's what makes the game great, IMO. I think if you objectively stack the Sox against the defending World Champs, we're just as good as they are.

Here's to optimism... The only thing that makes life worth living. Right now, we're tied for first. :gulp:

Chisox_cali
12-24-2003, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by doublem23

Here's to optimism... The only thing that makes life worth living. Right now, we're tied for first. :gulp:

LIES! BLASPHEMY! The Sox are always tied for last place during the off-seaon!

doublem23
12-24-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali
LIES! BLASPHEMY! The Sox are always tied for last place during the off-seaon!

Ha ha... Only if you're old and crotchety.

:)

habibharu
12-24-2003, 05:27 PM
hey lip, come on, look at the twins and royals. you really think that the royals can win this many games next year? the twins bullpen, one of their biggest strengths, is depleted. they lost AJ. and they werent that good to begin with! we keep underachieving. your not gonna tell me and say that when you look at the two rosters on paper, you would much rather have the chisox? come on, luis freakin rivas!???!!???

Daver
12-24-2003, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
hey lip, come on, look at the twins and royals. you really think that the royals can win this many games next year? the twins bullpen, one of their biggest strengths, is depleted. they lost AJ. and they werent that good to begin with! we keep underachieving. your not gonna tell me and say that when you look at the two rosters on paper, you would much rather have the chisox? come on, luis freakin rivas!???!!???

Lip bases his talent evaluation on payroll,period.

TornLabrum
12-24-2003, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Daver
Lip bases his talent evaluation on payroll,period.

And many other here base theirs on dreams and tea leaves.

Daver
12-24-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
And many other here base theirs on dreams and tea leaves.

I can't remember ever basing my talent evaluation on tea leaves,but OK.

Lip Man 1
12-24-2003, 09:12 PM
For what its worth one American League GM is quoted this week in The Sporting News as saying the Royals now have the best bullpen in the division and maybe the league.

Going man for man between the Royals, Twins and Sox right now (along with managers) I have the Sox in 3rd place.

One other factor involving the Twins is their abortion of a ballpark. Granted they lost a TON of talent but the Metrodome still screws up opposing clubs, the Twins know how to take advantage of that park and that is a decisive advantage.

As far as some of my critics, these are the same fans who swore the Sox were going to win the division last year and we all saw what happened. So pardon me if I don't believe in miracles.

I'd be more comfortable if the Sox didn't have to rely so much on "luck" to win the weakest division in baseball. I prefer knowing that you are probably going to win the division unless you get a massive amount of injuries, because your talent level is so far superior to the other teams.

The Sox can't say that at least as of 12/24/03. But who knows perhaps in a month a sudden rush of talent will fall to the Sox because every other team in baseball will have filled all their holes.

Lip

tanko
12-25-2003, 06:34 PM
Koch will be back in form he is not dead weight

ma-gaga
12-25-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
One other factor involving the Twins is their abortion of a ballpark. Granted they lost a TON of talent but the Metrodome still screws up opposing clubs, the Twins know how to take advantage of that park and that is a decisive advantage.
...
The Sox can't say that at least as of 12/24/03. But who knows perhaps in a month a sudden rush of talent will fall to the Sox because every other team in baseball will have filled all their holes.


They'll be fixing part of the Metrodome advantage in the next month. They'll FINALLY be putting in the 'natural' field turf stuff. It should seriously slow down the ball and the field will play a little more naturally. They can't really do anything about the roof or the air blowers... er uh... air conditioning. Or the goofy ceiling, but the turf will even out the differences a bit.

I agree with your second statement. It's way too soon to be giving the division to any team. So, Lip, which team do you have as second in the division?

Chisox_cali
12-25-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
So, Lip, which team do you have as second in the division?

Take a wild guess...

Here's a hint, it's not the team this website is dedicated too.

SoxxoS
12-25-2003, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by tanko
Koch will be back in form he is not dead weight

:cleo

doublem23
12-26-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
For what its worth one American League GM is quoted this week in The Sporting News as saying the Royals now have the best bullpen in the division and maybe the league.

Going man for man between the Royals, Twins and Sox right now (along with managers) I have the Sox in 3rd place.

One other factor involving the Twins is their abortion of a ballpark. Granted they lost a TON of talent but the Metrodome still screws up opposing clubs, the Twins know how to take advantage of that park and that is a decisive advantage.

As far as some of my critics, these are the same fans who swore the Sox were going to win the division last year and we all saw what happened. So pardon me if I don't believe in miracles.

I'd be more comfortable if the Sox didn't have to rely so much on "luck" to win the weakest division in baseball. I prefer knowing that you are probably going to win the division unless you get a massive amount of injuries, because your talent level is so far superior to the other teams.

The Sox can't say that at least as of 12/24/03. But who knows perhaps in a month a sudden rush of talent will fall to the Sox because every other team in baseball will have filled all their holes.

Lip

And don't you forget... Predictions made by GMs in December are never wrong.

The Sox are fine. Not by theiw own doing, but they are fine.

CubKilla
12-26-2003, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by habibharu
we got, caballo,mags, and hurt, who are awesome. we have konerko, and buehrle probably wont be as bad as they were last year, garland will hopefully keep developing and turn into pretty good player..... of course i would like them to sign a couple pitchers and a stick, but we got a pretty solid team!

So you're saying we have the nucleus of a team that has finished in 2nd Place the last 3 years. Excuse me if I don't share your same enthusiasm.

kempsted
12-26-2003, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by CubKilla
So you're saying we have the nucleus of a team that has finished in 2nd Place the last 3 years. Excuse me if I don't share your same enthusiasm.

This team would have won the division under any manager other than Manuel. We were two wins away from the playoffs even though we had a horrible sub 500 start. According to the Pythagorean standings we won the division. So yeah optimism is called for.

Am I happy about their inactivity? No I am as antsy as everyone else I just don't think it is worth getting on the ledge.

Don't let the local media influence you - the White Sox were objectively better than the Cubs last year. Hey for one thing we beat them 4 out of 6 times. Yet if you hear the local media the Cubs are great and looking great and boy those White Sox were terrible.

TornLabrum
12-26-2003, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
And don't you forget... Predictions made by GMs in December are never wrong.

The Sox are fine. Not by theiw own doing, but they are fine.

I for one feel just fine about haveing Scott Scheoenwies and either Danny Wright or Neil Cotts as my fourth and fifth starters, Billy Koch as my closer, no one to replace Tom Gordon yet, Aaron Rowand as my starting centerfielder, and Willie Harris at second base.

Those guys should get us deep into the playoffs.

harwar
12-26-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by kempsted
This team would have won the division under any manager other than Manuel. We were two wins away from the playoffs even though we had a horrible sub 500 start.

I couldn't agree more..if the White Sox had fired Manuel and grabbed Jack McKeon before the marlins,i believe we would have had a very good chance at winning the division.

juschill
12-26-2003, 10:48 AM
Greetings all. I'm new to the board. It looks like almost everybody here thinks like I do except the guy that wrote:

"we have E-LO, who's good for 15-18 wins"

Based on what? This sounds like the Cub fans who already have Kerry Wood and Mark Prior in the Hall of Fame before they've even made an All-Star team.

This past season was the only time "E-LO" has ever won 15 games. He is a one-year wonder.

This season is already down the drain. Last week Mariotti said he thought the Sox were getting serious when they hired Ozzie Guillen. What?!?! That's the complete opposite of being serious. The one guy they could have hired that is a downgrade from Manuel. Well done.

miker
12-26-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by juschill
Greetings all. I'm new to the board. It looks like almost everybody here thinks like I do except the guy that wrote:

"we have E-LO, who's good for 15-18 wins"

Based on what? This sounds like the Cub fans who already have Kerry Wood and Mark Prior in the Hall of Fame before they've even made an All-Star team.

This past season was the only time "E-LO" has ever won 15 games. He is a one-year wonder.

This season is already down the drain. Last week Mariotti said he thought the Sox were getting serious when they hired Ozzie Guillen. What?!?! That's the complete opposite of being serious. The one guy they could have hired that is a downgrade from Manuel. Well done.
So you're saying we still have a chance...

maurice
12-26-2003, 12:20 PM
I agree that the 2003 Sox would have won the division with a better manager. Unfortunately, the current roster is less talented than the 2003 roster, and we have no reason to believe that JM's replacement is a better manager.

CubKilla
12-26-2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by kempsted
This team would have won the division under any manager other than Manuel. We were two wins away from the playoffs even though we had a horrible sub 500 start.

Good point there that I didn't think of at the time. JM should have been fired in '02.

CubKilla
12-26-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by juschill
Greetings all. I'm new to the board. It looks like almost everybody here thinks like I do except the guy that wrote:

"we have E-LO, who's good for 15-18 wins"

Based on what? This sounds like the Cub fans who already have Kerry Wood and Mark Prior in the Hall of Fame before they've even made an All-Star team.

This past season was the only time "E-LO" has ever won 15 games. He is a one-year wonder.

Agreed. When you pencil in a SP for "X" amount of wins, unless it's 5 or 6, you're cruising for disappointment most of the time.

SoxxoS
12-26-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Agreed. When you pencil in a SP for "X" amount of wins, unless it's 5 or 6, you're cruising for disappointment most of the time.

Unless you are talking about Wood and Prior.

Brian26
12-26-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
Unless you are talking about Wood and Prior.

Was that supposed to be in teal?

And how many 18-win seasons does Prior have under his belt now? And Wood has gone how many years in a row without being on the DL? Give me a break.

Lip Man 1
12-26-2003, 06:08 PM
Kemp is very correct in his comment about this team being very close to actually winning their division last year. All the more reason to shake your head and wonder at the mentality of an organization that places a higher premium on the salary they would have to pay an ineffective manager to not manage then to actually win, go to the playoffs and perhaps pull off what the Cubs did.

The bottom line is that regardless of how close the Cubs and Sox were in 2004, the Cubs made the playoffs beat the Braves and took the Marlins to seven games before choking big time. The Sox.....well the Sox came close (and for those of you who don't know me I am not a Cubs fan.)

Ma-gaga...you are correct about the installation of the new turf, however, the Jays and Devil Rays are the only other team to have turf. That still is a tremendous advantage to the Twins because they play 82 games on that junk...throw in the roof and the air conditioners and you still have a big home field advantage. I read somewhere last year where they quoted a player as saying it takes at least one game to adapt to playing in the Metrodome, usually two. By then you probably lost the series if you are playing a three game set and are just hoping to take a game.

Lip

SoxxoS
12-26-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Was that supposed to be in teal?

And how many 18-win seasons does Prior have under his belt now? And Wood has gone how many years in a row without being on the DL? Give me a break.

That was supposed to be in teal. Whoops.

Brian26
12-26-2003, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by SoxxoS
That was supposed to be in teal. Whoops.

Hehe. No biggie. Just making sure you hadn't lost your mind, brother.

elrod
12-26-2003, 07:35 PM
There isn't much to be excited about. But when was the last time the Sox went through an offseason with such downgraded expectations? I believe it was 2000. And what happened that year? Every time we added a big name player the next few years - Charles Johnson, Wells, Bartolo, Ritchie, Koch, Robbie Alomar, Carl Everett - the team went backwards. What did we add in 2000? Valentin, Eldred, Herbert Perry and Tony Graffanino. Oh, and we gave up Navarro. But really, who here honestly thought the Sox would amount to anything before the 2000 season? I sure as heck didn't.

Daver
12-26-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by elrod
There isn't much to be excited about. But when was the last time the Sox went through an offseason with such downgraded expectations? I believe it was 2000. And what happened that year? Every time we added a big name player the next few years - Charles Johnson, Wells, Bartolo, Ritchie, Koch, Robbie Alomar, Carl Everett - the team went backwards. What did we add in 2000? Valentin, Eldred, Herbert Perry and Tony Graffanino. Oh, and we gave up Navarro. But really, who here honestly thought the Sox would amount to anything before the 2000 season? I sure as heck didn't.


Hey welcome aboard! :redneck

TornLabrum
12-26-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by elrod
Oh, and we gave up Navarro.

That was truly a case of addition by subtraction.

red faber
12-29-2003, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by kempsted
This team would have won the division under any manager other than Manuel. We were two wins away from the playoffs even though we had a horrible sub 500 start. According to the Pythagorean standings we won the division. So yeah optimism is called for.

Am I happy about their inactivity? No I am as antsy as everyone else I just don't think it is worth getting on the ledge.

Don't let the local media influence you - the White Sox were objectively better than the Cubs last year. Hey for one thing we beat them 4 out of 6 times. Yet if you hear the local media the Cubs are great and looking great and boy those White Sox were terrible.


say what you want,but the fact is that the cubs made it to the postseason and we didn't.

red faber
12-29-2003, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by TornLabrum
I for one feel just fine about haveing Scott Scheoenwies and either Danny Wright or Neil Cotts as my fourth and fifth starters, Billy Koch as my closer, no one to replace Tom Gordon yet, Aaron Rowand as my starting centerfielder, and Willie Harris at second base.

Those guys should get us deep into the playoffs.


i hope you're being sarcastic????

TornLabrum
12-29-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by red faber
i hope you're being sarcastic????

That's why it was in teal.

StillMissOzzie
12-30-2003, 12:45 AM
Not much to be optimistic about. We've lost all 6 FA's (although I don't think KW ever intended to keep ALL of them), signed NOBODY new, and obtained Uribe in a low-level trade. The best think that happened to the Sox so far w/r/t winning the division is to have the Scrubs take Hawkins from the Twinkies. Sad, very sad...


SMO
:(:

surfdudes
12-30-2003, 12:41 PM
And don't forget the biggest change, Ozzie G. at the helm.
For better or worse, this move alone will:
A- Get these players to finally start playing some ball from opening day throughout the whole season.
B- Accelerate the timeline for the rebuilding process.

I just hope that the Frank DH / want to play first base / Paul Konerko logjam thing doesn't rear it;s ugly head. I would really
be happy if they had complete closure one way or another on that.

Koch rebounds
Marte is the real deal
ELo wins 15
Buerle wins 15
Garland goes deep in games
Lee's year was not a fluke
Crede realizes some of his potential

Sox take division

miker
12-30-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by surfdudes
Sox take division

Wow, I didn't know Jeff Spicoli was a Sox fan...

surfdudes
12-30-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by miker
Wow, I didn't know Jeff Spicoli was a Sox fan...

Mr. Hand, is that you?
Wooooooooooooow.......

miker
12-30-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by surfdudes
Mr. Hand, is that you?
Wooooooooooooow.......
WHITE SOX BASEBALL: "That's my skull...I'm so wasted!"

What do ya think? Someone get Rob Gallas on the phone...