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View Full Version : When KW initiates, WE LOSE


Gumshoe
12-21-2003, 05:25 PM
The novel yet obvious idea finally struck me. How can we get into arguments about KW, being that he hasn't won a division title since his inception after 2000? Well, some moves HAVE gone down that have looked good, or OK. Obviously some have been BAD and outright TERRIBLE too. But focus on the main point:

When KW initiates, "tries", or is "creative" [what a euphemism!]
he inevitably puts the Sox back to square -1.

Good moves? He didn't initiate on Colon. He didn't initiate on this past "deal" with ARod, either. It was going to fall into his lap.

What did he initiate? Wells, Ritchie, Clayton ...

perhaps Olivo was a good move, we'll see. I will say the foresight was better for the Sox at the time. I'm not sure about Marte, but he deserves credit for that if he initiated too.

In sum, KW is WEAK

He's about to get weaker, as you'll see this offseason. I can't bare to watch.

MRKARNO
12-21-2003, 05:31 PM
Matt Gurrier for Marte

Prospect package for Carl Everett and Cash

Prospect package for Roberto Alomar and Cash

Signing Tom Gordon

Inviting Esteban Loaiza to Spring Training

Gotta give KW credit where credit is due. He made these moves so he deserves credit for these. I'd say his effect on the team when all is said and done is positive, although he makes a lot of really good moves and a lot of bad moves

cornball
12-21-2003, 05:34 PM
Doesn't matter what the GM's name is, under the constraits the owner has the team under it is very difficult to build a winner.

A GM can't constantly build a team through trades, you need to add to the team (ala free agency) without constantly subtracting.

JR has put KW in a tough spot.

It is obvious (to me at least) KW wants to win and win now. JR won't let him have the chance.

Daver
12-21-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
The novel yet obvious idea finally struck me. How can we get into arguments about KW, being that he hasn't won a division title since his inception after 2000? Well, some moves HAVE gone down that have looked good, or OK. Obviously some have been BAD and outright TERRIBLE too. But focus on the main point:

When KW initiates, "tries", or is "creative" [what a euphemism!]
he inevitably puts the Sox back to square -1.

Good moves? He didn't initiate on Colon. He didn't initiate on this past "deal" with ARod, either. It was going to fall into his lap.

What did he initiate? Wells, Ritchie, Clayton ...

perhaps Olivo was a good move, we'll see. I will say the foresight was better for the Sox at the time. I'm not sure about Marte, but he deserves credit for that if he initiated too.

In sum, KW is WEAK

He's about to get weaker, as you'll see this offseason. I can't bare to watch.


:whoflungpoo

lowesox
12-21-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO

Prospect package for Carl Everett and Cash

Prospect package for Roberto Alomar and Cash


I'm not so sure about these two. In fact, they both have the potential to be very one-sided the other way. We gave up some very talented players for these two guys - and they helped us win, but didn't help us earn a playoff spot.

MRKARNO
12-22-2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by lowesox
I'm not so sure about these two. In fact, they both have the potential to be very one-sided the other way. We gave up some very talented players for these two guys - and they helped us win, but didn't help us earn a playoff spot.

I personally believe that Alomar's defense was clutch enough to have won us games that D'Angelo Jimenez's offense couldnt replace. And replacing Rowand with Everett was a HUGE upgrade. You could argue that Jimenez for Alomar was not too great, but Everett hit so well for us. Just because the rest of the team couldnt win doesnt mean that they didn't help in the cause.

CubKilla
12-22-2003, 12:37 AM
I've never been a fan of KW, but even I can't blame the guy right now for the trouble that the White Sox Organization is in. Hopefully KW sticks to his guns and only trades one of our big names for a player/players that instantly make the White Sox a better team. No more Ritchie-esque deals please KW!!!!!

Gumshoe
12-22-2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
I personally believe that Alomar's defense was clutch enough to have won us games that D'Angelo Jimenez's offense couldnt replace. And replacing Rowand with Everett was a HUGE upgrade. You could argue that Jimenez for Alomar was not too great, but Everett hit so well for us. Just because the rest of the team couldnt win doesnt mean that they didn't help in the cause.

Too bad Everett was a total liability in CF. Remember, Aaron playing sparingly hit REAL well (although I do think Everett hit very well for us, his D was absolutely ATROCIOUS)

The Alomar move was OK. I won't get into that, but I personally think we would have won just as many with DJ and AR playing. We started streaking before that trade.

Gordon was a good pickup? That's ridiculous and laughable. Look at his stats. Also, did you watch the first 3 months of the season? Cleveland, Arizona, Toronto, etc. He was BAD. Between Rick White and him, KW deserves a D or an F. Come on

Gumshoe

ps - look at what we did and ask yourself, do we have Everett or Alomar? Whoops. KW loses again. Just play the guys and quit F'ing around. I hope AR and WH get a shot. Why not?

Meixner007
12-22-2003, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
[BThe Alomar move was OK. I won't get into that, but I personally think we would have won just as many with DJ and AR playing. We started streaking before that trade.

[/B]

You wanna talk about Jimenez :dirtyharry

DJ = Anti Christ

OEO Magglio
12-22-2003, 01:00 AM
Gumshoe, I hope your joking about flash, how could you say he was a bad pickup, he was the sox second best reliever, and he did a pretty good job closing when he got his opportunity, flash was a great pick up.

CubKilla
12-22-2003, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by OEO Magglio
flash was a great pick up.

Especially when Billy Botch imploded early-on and often.

Gumshoe
12-22-2003, 11:22 AM
To be fair, Flash was pretty good at the end, but THAT IS IT. For how bad Koch and Rick White were (my god those two make KW one of the worst GMs of all time!), there is no way Gordon was even a decent move. We had NO right handed relief ... sorry, i can't talk anymore, it sorrows me so that i'll delve into the Foulke argument again (we could have won the series with him!)

Anyone like Jason Johnson? O's released him. I like the guy. Why not pick him up?

Gumshoe

OEO Magglio
12-22-2003, 11:39 AM
Gumshoe first to answer your question I think most people like Jason Johnson, and think he'd be a descent pickup, but I just don't understand how you say flash was only an ok pickup he was the only right handed relief we had until the sox picked up sully, flash was more then descent he was a very good pickup and sign at the beginning of the year, before you said look at his numbers, I think you should look at his number, his era was in the low 3's, and he also had the most k's/ip's for any reliever in baseball.

WillieHarris12
12-22-2003, 12:33 PM
KW is trying hard to get us someone good. Reinsdorf is strangling his ability to do that. Don't get down on KW.

SSN721
12-22-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by WillieHarris12
KW is trying hard to get us someone good. Reinsdorf is strangling his ability to do that. Don't get down on KW.

I completely agree, it is hard to tear down a guy who is the victim of being completely handcuffed by management, if he had that record with an 80-100 million dollar payroll, I think it would be a lot easier to blame the GM.

Gumshoe
12-22-2003, 03:31 PM
Wah wah wah wah, my ***** hurts. Handcuffed? Maybe.

But don't make excuses. He's made a TON of reallyBUM moves

Gumshoe

SSN721
12-22-2003, 04:04 PM
I still think most of the moves KW has made in the past at the time they were made not many people complained, its easy to look back and say he made stupid moves because they didnt work out in the end. But hindsight can make smart people look stupid becuase of bad luck and idiots look smart because they happened to luck out. Hindsight is 20/20.

maurice
12-22-2003, 04:29 PM
I've been a fairly big KW supporter, but the hindsight charge does not apply to all of his critics. His stupider moves (Ritchie, Durham, Foulke, various bloated contracts) were panned by many here at the time they were made. The Barry/Berry fiasco was patently stupid.

Personally, I don't remember thinking less of a KW move in hindsight. If anything, some of his moves (e.g., Marte) look even better in hindsight.

SSN721
12-22-2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by maurice
I've been a fairly big KW supporter, but the hindsight charge does not apply to all of his critics. His stupider moves (Ritchie, Durham, Foulke, various bloated contracts) were panned by many here at the time they were made. The Barry/Berry fiasco was patently stupid.

Personally, I don't remember thinking less of a KW move in hindsight. If anything, some of his moves (e.g., Marte) look even better in hindsight.

I do apologize, I didnt mean the hindsight charge to necessarily apply to the posters here, since I was not a member or knew of this website at the time I certainly cannot speculate as to what was said. I just remember the general media and other friends/fans outlook on trades and contracts in the past at the time they were made as seeming to be good things and then turining out to be rotten. Thats all I was trying to say. Sorry to make it sound specific to WSI.

maurice
12-22-2003, 04:40 PM
No problem. I figured as much.

You may have noticed that the opinion of posters at WSI typically varies significantly from, say, the opinion of Howard Sudberry. I mean, nobody at WSI would wear a toupee that awful!

:)

SSN721
12-22-2003, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by maurice
No problem. I figured as much.

You may have noticed that the opinion of posters at WSI typically varies significantly from, say, the opinion of Howard Sudberry. I mean, nobody at WSI would wear a toupee that awful!

:)

I certainly hope not, I think I would certainly give every poster here that much credit. :D: