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gosox41
12-21-2003, 08:29 AM
Based on what I've read in the papers the last few weeks (and you all know what that is worth) it seems like KW is taking on a role of listening to offers for Frank to starting to try to trade him (I think it was mentioned in Sat.'s Tribune that if the Ordonez deal dies the sox would try to get Evans to take PK or Frank.)

I'll go on record right now that if Frank is traded, I will make it a point to boo Ozzie every team he hops out of the dugout. I don't care if he is wearing a White Sox uniform or if he makes Willie Harris into the Sox best lead off hitter. I do not want to see Frank traded. In my twisted little mind, I see Ozzie trying to force Frank out. There are even rumors that Frank asked for a trade. I do know Ozzie was 100% wrong for calling out Frank during his press conference when he was named manager.

Bob

Mountain Man
12-21-2003, 08:42 AM
I am going to assume that during Ozzie's interviews someone asked him about Frank. I am also going to assume that Ozzie answered truthfully. I would further assume that Frank was asked his opinion of Oz as manager and he answered truthfully. I am also going to take on face value Ozzies statement that he has tried contacting Frank and FRank has not returned any phone calls to his new boss.

Adding this up, I draw the conclusion that Frank let management know his opinion of hiring OZ and it wasn't positive. Management went with Ozzie anyways, and now we have an unhappy employee. Is Oz trying to wrestle control of the locker room from Frank? Maybe.

I will boo Frank and Oz if we are swept during the opening series and 5 games out after the first month of the season. I would rather win with Frank than without, but I want to win. If Frank is going to feud openly with the new manager then he gawn. What is the other option? Fire Oz before he manages his first game?

Realist
12-21-2003, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
Based on what I've read in the papers the last few weeks (and you all know what that is worth) it seems like KW is taking on a role of listening to offers for Frank to starting to try to trade him (I think it was mentioned in Sat.'s Tribune that if the Ordonez deal dies the sox would try to get Evans to take PK or Frank.)

I'll go on record right now that if Frank is traded, I will make it a point to boo Ozzie every team he hops out of the dugout. I don't care if he is wearing a White Sox uniform or if he makes Willie Harris into the Sox best lead off hitter. I do not want to see Frank traded. In my twisted little mind, I see Ozzie trying to force Frank out. There are even rumors that Frank asked for a trade. I do know Ozzie was 100% wrong for calling out Frank during his press conference when he was named manager.

Bob

Ozzie was very wrong for that, and I'm not even a huge Frank fan. That's just bad form.

When Frank hits, the Sox win. With Frank gone.....????

Then again, I do believe that Frank is as much of a clubhouse cancer as David Wells ever hoped to be.

This "rock and a hard place" stuff sure is exhausting.

jabrch
12-21-2003, 09:19 AM
Tell me one thing Bob...

Why would Ozzie (and/or KW) want Frank out? And if he did, couldn't he have done it in a different manner? (just keep your yap shut and trade him?)

This is a pile - IMHO. Nobody wants Frank out - unless we get such a deal for him that it improves the club somehow.

oldcomiskey
12-21-2003, 09:27 AM
you guys apparently dont understand---tell Me exactly where Ozzie called Frank out, and maybe if he did, somebody needed to. Frank is the perfect example of a prima donna who needs his big ass spanked every once in awhile. And FRANK, not Ozzie is wrong here

TornLabrum
12-21-2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Mountain Man
I am going to assume that during Ozzie's interviews someone asked him about Frank. I am also going to assume that Ozzie answered truthfully. I would further assume that Frank was asked his opinion of Oz as manager and he answered truthfully. I am also going to take on face value Ozzies statement that he has tried contacting Frank and FRank has not returned any phone calls to his new boss.

Adding this up, I draw the conclusion that Frank let management know his opinion of hiring OZ and it wasn't positive. Management went with Ozzie anyways, and now we have an unhappy employee. Is Oz trying to wrestle control of the locker room from Frank? Maybe.

I will boo Frank and Oz if we are swept during the opening series and 5 games out after the first month of the season. I would rather win with Frank than without, but I want to win. If Frank is going to feud openly with the new manager then he gawn. What is the other option? Fire Oz before he manages his first game?

You are correct in your assumptions regarding why Ozzie discussed Frank. The first time Frank's name was mentioned in the press conference was in a response to a question by Les Grobstein in which Frank and Maggs were given as an example of who will be expected to play the game his way, i.e. when there is a runner on first and nobody out [paraphrasing closely to the exact quote], "I don't care if it's Frank or Magglio, if they don't move the runner along, the next time they come to bat, they will bunt."

When Magglio, "called out" Thomas, it was a direct response to a question by Bruce Levine about his relationship with Frank. I took something like 90 minutes to go through the interview over and over to get as close to an exact transcript of his response to those two questions as I could. You can find the direct quotes in my column at

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=2378

wassagstdu
12-21-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
... Nobody wants Frank out - unless we get such a deal for him that it improves the club somehow.
The "somehow" implies that that would be difficult. Frank is a defensive liability that makes the whole infield weaker. He has been the best hitter in Sox history -- but not right now. Right now he is an inconsistent one-dimensional hitter. If Frank can't at least add the dimension of being a team player at the plate he is a negative to the team. Then it is not difficult to strengthen the team by replacing him.

Ozzie was right on the money. I understand how FT fans react to a challenge to Frank, but right now Frank is eating away at his own legend. Ozzie has focused on what this team needs to win and if that is at odds with what Frank needs, he should go.

gosox41
12-21-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Mountain Man
I am going to assume that during Ozzie's interviews someone asked him about Frank. I am also going to assume that Ozzie answered truthfully. I would further assume that Frank was asked his opinion of Oz as manager and he answered truthfully. I am also going to take on face value Ozzies statement that he has tried contacting Frank and FRank has not returned any phone calls to his new boss.

Adding this up, I draw the conclusion that Frank let management know his opinion of hiring OZ and it wasn't positive. Management went with Ozzie anyways, and now we have an unhappy employee. Is Oz trying to wrestle control of the locker room from Frank? Maybe.

I will boo Frank and Oz if we are swept during the opening series and 5 games out after the first month of the season. I would rather win with Frank than without, but I want to win. If Frank is going to feud openly with the new manager then he gawn. What is the other option? Fire Oz before he manages his first game?

Frank addss more value to the team then Ozzie. While it's not realistic to fire Ozzie, maybe he shouldn't have been hired in the first place.

Bob

gosox41
12-21-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
you guys apparently dont understand---tell Me exactly where Ozzie called Frank out, and maybe if he did, somebody needed to. Frank is the perfect example of a prima donna who needs his big ass spanked every once in awhile. And FRANK, not Ozzie is wrong here

I think any problems between Frank and Ozzie should be dealt with internally. When any questions are asked about the two to Ozzie, he should have deferred them by saying he'll talk to Frank on his own instead of going off on how Frank needs to be with the program. Even if it's true about Frank being a cancer, the team plays better when he hits. He hits when he is focused. Ozzie was wrong to go to the public to get Frank to be a team player and not taking it to him directly. It's humiliating for any player, let alone a future HOFer.

Bob

gosox41
12-21-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
Tell me one thing Bob...

Why would Ozzie (and/or KW) want Frank out? And if he did, couldn't he have done it in a different manner? (just keep your yap shut and trade him?)

This is a pile - IMHO. Nobody wants Frank out - unless we get such a deal for him that it improves the club somehow.

I think Ozzie wants this to be his team. I will not rate Ozzie and his on the filed stategy until I see him manage. But his reputation as a player put him as someone who talked a lot. Sure enough during his first press conference, there he was already talking about Frank when he should have dealt with him one on one. Not a good way to start off as a manager, because being a manager is more then just telling guys when to bunt or steal. It's dealing with the personalities in the clubhouse.

When one of those personalities produces a .390 OBP with 40+ HR's for the relatively low price of $6 mill per. year maybe he should be given the respect to be dealt with in private. Even if he were a rookie, he should get the same respect.

Ozzie has already demoted Frank from the #3 spot in the batting order. He told the media this. Do you think he mentioned it to Frank ahead of time? Do you have proof he did?

Bob

CubKilla
12-21-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Mountain Man
I am also going to take on face value Ozzies statement that he has tried contacting Frank and FRank has not returned any phone calls to his new boss.

Adding this up, I draw the conclusion that Frank let management know his opinion of hiring OZ and it wasn't positive. Management went with Ozzie anyways, and now we have an unhappy employee.

Frank Thomas pouting? There's a first.

compy75
12-21-2003, 11:44 AM
It's amazing how underappreciated Frank is by us Sox fans. Take a quick glance last season, who led the Sox in OPS and was SIXTH in the AL. Oh yeah Frank. Who had the highest OBP? Oh yeah, Frank. Despite playing 7 less games, he had more RBIs than Magglio. Was he among the leaders in DP? Neither Maggs or Lee can say no. Reality is a strong argument can be made based on OPS and other statistics that Frank had one of the top ten best performances in the AL with the bat.
Some people may point to his "lack of clutch hitting." Well he hit .303 when it was deemed "close and late" with a mammoth 7 HR, his 6 GW Home Runs ranked second in the ML. Scoring position and 2 outs? .305 with 25 RBI in 52 ABs. After starting the year 2-24 with RISP, Frank finished 33 for 101. As much as he is easy to pick on, Frank is an offensive force. Oh and for all you Lee lovers, Frank had one season with an OBP under .380, 2 years ago where he came in at .361. Despite that his WORST OBP is better than Lee BEST and only 2 less than Konerko's BEST.
Don't dismiss for what is he is, a damn good hitter. He's not a monster anymore, but he isn't quite alsoran either. He's not our best player based solely on his lack of baserunning and complete inability to throw a baseball but he's alot more valuable than we give him credit for.

MRKARNO
12-21-2003, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by compy75
It's amazing how underappreciated Frank is by us Sox fans. Take a quick glance last season, who led the Sox in OPS and was SIXTH in the AL. Oh yeah Frank. Who had the highest OBP? Oh yeah, Frank. Despite playing 7 less games, he had more RBIs than Magglio. Was he among the leaders in DP? Neither Maggs or Lee can say no. Reality is a strong argument can be made based on OPS and other statistics that Frank had one of the top ten best performances in the AL with the bat.
Some people may point to his "lack of clutch hitting." Well he hit .303 when it was deemed "close and late" with a mammoth 7 HR, his 6 GW Home Runs ranked second in the ML. Scoring position and 2 outs? .305 with 25 RBI in 52 ABs. After starting the year 2-24 with RISP, Frank finished 33 for 101. As much as he is easy to pick on, Frank is an offensive force. Oh and for all you Lee lovers, Frank had one season with an OBP under .380, 2 years ago where he came in at .361. Despite that his WORST OBP is better than Lee BEST and only 2 less than Konerko's BEST.
Don't dismiss for what is he is, a damn good hitter. He's not a monster anymore, but he isn't quite alsoran either. He's not our best player based solely on his lack of baserunning and complete inability to throw a baseball but he's alot more valuable than we give him credit for.

Frank is one of the best hitters of all time. There's no denying that. He's good enough to make the person in front of him a lot better. If he were behind Maggs in the lineup, I could see the Sox' offense doing a lot better.

mdep524
12-21-2003, 02:28 PM
All Frank does is pout and make poor decisions, if Ozzie didn't irritate him at the press conference he or someone else would have eventually anyway, so let's get off Ozzie's back about it already.

About Frank as a hitter, he's one of my favorites of all time, but let's be realistic, his refusal to hit to rightfield, which about 10 years ago made him the best hitter in the AL, is a terrible strategy. I wish Manuel had the guts to call him on it last year, the sorry truth is that this came about because Frank saw he could reach 500 HRs easier this way (and thus the HOF). I'm sorry, but that's the truth. I'll take a .325 BA 30 HR Frank over a .265 45 HR Frank anyday.

Also, he's a professional athlete. Let's see him RESPOND to a challenge rather than pout and make excuses. I support Frank, and I think he is still capable of carrying this team, but he needs tough love.

Lip Man 1
12-21-2003, 03:19 PM
As of this post when you consider the state of the club, the Frank / Ozzie feud should be one of the last things the organization and fans are worried about.

And with respect since the Sox don't look to be going anywhere in the next few years anyway, Frank's situation and attitude are a moot point. The man is 35...by the time the Sox are actually contending for a World Series appearance he'll be gone. If 2004 looked like the team were a legitimate contender for a championship then I'd be very concerned as well since this is the type of thing that can rip a team apart, but I don't think it's going to matter one way or another when the Sox are in 3rd place do you?

Lip

Deadguy
12-21-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Tell me one thing Bob...

Why would Ozzie (and/or KW) want Frank out?

Because Frank doesn't fit Ozzie's ideal of what a "great" player is. Like Rob Neyer said, players often over estimate their value to a team, so Ozzie is probably going to stress the importance of defense over such things as walks and a high OBP.

Deadguy
12-21-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by wassagstdu
The "somehow" implies that that would be difficult. Frank is a defensive liability that makes the whole infield weaker. He has been the best hitter in Sox history -- but not right now. Right now he is an inconsistent one-dimensional hitter.

Wrong. Right now (2003), Frank was the best hitter on the team. Considering the fact that 50% of baseball is runs scored, I'd say subtracting your best hitter isn't the way to improve a team's winning percentage.

[Ozzie was right on the money. I understand how FT fans react to a challenge to Frank, but right now Frank is eating away at his own legend. Ozzie has focused on what this team needs to win and if that is at odds with what Frank needs, he should go. [/B]

There was no reason for it. Thomas was already challenged by the team this past off season, when they cut his salary in half and invoked the DSC. Thomas responded by improving his OPS by over 120 points, and finishing 6th in the league in OPS.

The guy who really needs to be challenged is Konerko, who IS hurting the team.

Deadguy
12-21-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1

And with respect since the Sox don't look to be going anywhere in the next few years anyway, Frank's situation and attitude are a moot point. The man is 35...by the time the Sox are actually contending for a World Series appearance he'll be gone.
Lip

Frank's 5 and a half years younger than Edgar Martinez. I don't see any reason why he can't maintain the same role for the White Sox that Edgar played for the M's since the mid 90s.

Frank has already expressed a desire to play until he's 40, so if the mutual loyalty between JR and FT continues for that long, he is a part of the future of this franchise for at least a handful of years to come.

Deadguy
12-21-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by mdep524


Is Ozzie going to call out Esteban Loiza for selfishly taking away a start from a teammate at the end of the season?



About Frank as a hitter, he's one of my favorites of all time, but let's be realistic, his refusal to hit to rightfield, which about 10 years ago made him the best hitter in the AL, is a terrible strategy. I wish Manuel had the guts to call him on it last year, the sorry truth is that this came about because Frank saw he could reach 500 HRs easier this way (and thus the HOF).

Is Ozzie going to call out Esteban Loiza for selfishly taking away a start from a teammate at the end of the season?

I'm sorry, but that's the truth. I'll take a .325 BA 30 HR Frank over a .265 45 HR Frank anyday.

Yeah, so. Try replacing either of those numbers for 6 million or less next season.

Also, he's a professional athlete. Let's see him RESPOND to a challenge rather than pout and make excuses. I support Frank, and I think he is still capable of carrying this team, but he needs tough love.

He DID respond to a challenge this past season, after the Sox invoked the DSC, and cut his salary in half, and improved on his performance from 2002.

RedPinStripes
12-21-2003, 09:49 PM
If Ozzie wants "grinders, " there's nothing wrong with Thmas on this team. But if you have 4 DH/1B's it wont work. Konerko's gotta go!

LASOXFAN
12-22-2003, 01:02 AM
The sooner KW's madness runs its course the sooner the Sox can get on a new course with a new GM.

TornLabrum
12-22-2003, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by LASOXFAN
The sooner KW's madness runs its course the sooner the Sox can get on a new course with a new GM.

Another rookie GM who will also have to undergo OJT.

jabrch
12-22-2003, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by gosox41
I think Ozzie wants this to be his team. I will not rate Ozzie and his on the filed stategy until I see him manage. But his reputation as a player put him as someone who talked a lot. Sure enough during his first press conference, there he was already talking about Frank when he should have dealt with him one on one. Not a good way to start off as a manager, because being a manager is more then just telling guys when to bunt or steal. It's dealing with the personalities in the clubhouse.

When one of those personalities produces a .390 OBP with 40+ HR's for the relatively low price of $6 mill per. year maybe he should be given the respect to be dealt with in private. Even if he were a rookie, he should get the same respect.

Ozzie has already demoted Frank from the #3 spot in the batting order. He told the media this. Do you think he mentioned it to Frank ahead of time? Do you have proof he did?

Bob

Of course I have no proof - but I don't know that moving to #4 is a demotion from #3 when you (Frank) have said publicly that you are not going to be hitting for the gaps, but going to focus more on HRs. If that's what you want to do, then you should be the #4 hitter, right?

Look, I am not defending Ozzie addressing team issues in public - I just don't think Ozzie and KW are trying to run Frank out of town. I think they are delivering the clear cut message that Frank can not do his own thing and that he must follow the managers instructions. This will be a nice change of pace from previous managers.

jabrch
12-22-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Deadguy
Because Frank doesn't fit Ozzie's ideal of what a "great" player is. Like Rob Neyer said, players often over estimate their value to a team, so Ozzie is probably going to stress the importance of defense over such things as walks and a high OBP.

IFF this is the case, then KW should be fired for hiring a manager that knows absolutely nothing about baseball. I will assume that is not the case until I see it proven on the field.

My proposal is that Ozzie knew he had to establish this as his team in order to get respect from the younger guys. In the past, managers have let Frank do and say his own thing without being accountable to the team concept. I think that was all Ozzie was calling out.

I don't really think he will be having Frank dragbunt any time soon. I don't see him calling a suicide squeeze with Frank and Maggs. (god help me) I do see him telling Frank to be more like Frank Thomas of the early 90s and to spray the ball in the gaps and be a .330 hitter rather than try and hit 50HRs. I want my manager doing things like this.

If you guys want a manager who will placate Frank to the detriment of the team, we could have stuck with Country Club Jerry. Geez, we could have kept Terry Bevington who everyone just ignored when he opened his mouth.

I am curious how all this will end up once camp starts, we have a full team, and they start playing/working together.

SSN721
12-22-2003, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by jabrch
IFF this is the case, then KW should be fired for hiring a manager that knows absolutely nothing about baseball. I will assume that is not the case until I see it proven on the field.

My proposal is that Ozzie knew he had to establish this as his team in order to get respect from the younger guys. In the past, managers have let Frank do and say his own thing without being accountable to the team concept. I think that was all Ozzie was calling out.

I don't really think he will be having Frank dragbunt any time soon. I don't see him calling a suicide squeeze with Frank and Maggs. (god help me) I do see him telling Frank to be more like Frank Thomas of the early 90s and to spray the ball in the gaps and be a .330 hitter rather than try and hit 50HRs. I want my manager doing things like this.

If you guys want a manager who will placate Frank to the detriment of the team, we could have stuck with Country Club Jerry. Geez, we could have kept Terry Bevington who everyone just ignored when he opened his mouth.

I am curious how all this will end up once camp starts, we have a full team, and they start playing/working together.

I am curious how it will all turn out as well. I beleive that once camp starts this entire thing will work itself out. I think Frank is just not used to a manager calling him out and telling him to play how it is best for the team and not for himself. I love Frank and I am really glad that he stayed, I dont think he will be traded and I think that the speculation about it is only due to the speculation of every other big name player on the team being shopped around for salary dumping purposes. I think trying to find another player for 6 mil that will hit .265/40 or .310/30 will be very difficult and I hop that management sees what a bargain Franks output is. I think through camp Ozzie and Frank will settle there differences and we might even see a Frank that we havent since the early/middle 90s.

Frater Perdurabo
12-22-2003, 09:28 AM
Totally off topic, but do you realize what we would get if we combined Frank and Ozzie? A bi-polar 6-6 switch-hitting second baseman who is alternatively a prankster and a brooder! Or we'd just get Frank Oz. LOL

FanOf14
12-22-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
Or we'd just get Frank Oz. LOL

So what you are saying is that we would have either an amazon Ms Piggy or an amazon Yoda at second? :D:

LOL Frater!

TornLabrum
12-22-2003, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by FanOf14
So what you are saying is that we would have either an amazon Ms Piggy or an amazon Yoda at second? :D:

LOL Frater!

Or cute little Grover.

MisterB
12-22-2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Of course I have no proof - but I don't know that moving to #4 is a demotion from #3 when you (Frank) have said publicly that you are not going to be hitting for the gaps, but going to focus more on HRs.

Frank never said that. He said he was going to try to "drive the ball" more. He was still getting extra base hits (both homers and doubles) like he usually does, but he was hitting less singles, which was why his batting average dropped. Dropping him to #4 may not be that bad, though. I bet a fair portion of the times that Frank walked last year was followed up with a Maggs or Konerko GIDP.


Originally posted by TornLabrum
Or cute little Grover.

http://pages.prodigy.net/edallan/2001/harg.jpg
"You keep me outta this."

CubKilla
12-22-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Frank never said that. He said he was going to try to "drive the ball" more. He was still getting extra base hits (both homers and doubles) like he usually does, but he was hitting less singles, which was why his batting average dropped. Dropping him to #4 may not be that bad, though. I bet a fair portion of the times that Frank walked last year was followed up with a Maggs or Konerko GIDP.

I seem to remember Frank in a TV interview saying that he is, "A HR hitter," and that, "That's what I do."

Of course I could be wrong. I don't have the TV interview on tape.

gosox41
12-22-2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
Of course I have no proof - but I don't know that moving to #4 is a demotion from #3 when you (Frank) have said publicly that you are not going to be hitting for the gaps, but going to focus more on HRs. If that's what you want to do, then you should be the #4 hitter, right?

Look, I am not defending Ozzie addressing team issues in public - I just don't think Ozzie and KW are trying to run Frank out of town. I think they are delivering the clear cut message that Frank can not do his own thing and that he must follow the managers instructions. This will be a nice change of pace from previous managers.

I do know Frank loves hitting third and prefers it. I always thought that was whre the most productive hitter on a team goes. I'm sure Frank would take it as an insult if Ozzie didn't at least go and explain it to him before running his mouth off.

Bob

SluggersAway
12-22-2003, 09:59 PM
lets replace them both with charlie o. finley and mc hammer.

s+s=s