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View Full Version : Schoeneweis - Non-Tender?


gogosoxgogo
12-19-2003, 10:12 PM
Curious what people's thoughts are on Schoeneweis' upcoming arbitration. I'm in favor of non-tendering him. We don't need another 5 and a half ERA starting or relieving, and I'm led to believe that he would make somewhere along the lines of 1.5mil or so. I don't want him starting in the first place, and I'll be fine with someone like Arnie Munoz or Dave Sanders coming out of the pen instead of him. Comments?

MRKARNO
12-19-2003, 10:15 PM
If they non-tender him, it's a good sign that KW might actually sign someone serviceable as a starting Pitcher, unlike Schoenweis who should be non-tendered

SluggersAway
12-19-2003, 10:21 PM
what did we pay him for his subpar performace last year?

mac9001
12-20-2003, 12:03 AM
Well, if you take a look at Scotts numbers you'll find there not that bad.

.252 AVG, .640 OPS

.703 OPS vs. RH

.571 OPS vs. LH

Compared to Buehrle who had a .278 .AVG, .735 OPS and a .762 OPS vs. RHers.

Looking at those numbers it tells you Scotts ERA is inflated from a bad outing or two, and given 30+ starts, i could see Scott pitching over 200 innigs and wining 10-14 games with a 4.10-4.50 ERA. For $1.5M i'll take that for a 5th starter.

duke of dorwood
12-20-2003, 12:06 AM
Add'l left handed starting help is invaluable in our division

Man Soo Lee
12-20-2003, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by mac9001
Compared to Buehrle who had a .278 .AVG, .735 OPS and a .762 OPS vs. RHers.

That's not really a fair comparison since Buehrle was facing lineups three and four times, while a reliever enters in situations that are favorable for him.

Schoeneweis' history doesn't suggest he'll be an effective starter and I wouldn't pay him $1.5 million to be the third-best lefty when we don't have a reliable righty reliever on the roster.

voodoochile
12-20-2003, 01:22 AM
Isn't he in the running for one of the two remaining starter slots? I will be surprised if they let him walk...

CubKilla
12-20-2003, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Isn't he in the running for one of the two remaining starter slots?

Unfortunately..... yes.

mac9001
12-20-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Man Soo Lee
That's not really a fair comparison since Buehrle was facing lineups three and four times, while a reliever enters in situations that are favorable for him.

Schoeneweis' history doesn't suggest he'll be an effective starter and I wouldn't pay him $1.5 million to be the third-best lefty when we don't have a reliable righty reliever on the roster.

Its definitely not a fair comparison, but given our situation i think he's still our best option as the 5th starter. Cotts isn't ready, Wright needs to stay in the pen, Rauch is a question mark, and we don't even have a 4th starter.

MisterB
12-20-2003, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by mac9001
Well, if you take a look at Scotts numbers you'll find there not that bad.

.252 AVG, .640 OPS

.703 OPS vs. RH

.571 OPS vs. LH

Compared to Buehrle who had a .278 .AVG, .735 OPS and a .762 OPS vs. RHers.

Looking at those numbers it tells you Scotts ERA is inflated from a bad outing or two, and given 30+ starts, i could see Scott pitching over 200 innigs and wining 10-14 games with a 4.10-4.50 ERA. For $1.5M i'll take that for a 5th starter.

Unfortunately if the Sox offer arbitration they have to pay him at least $2.24M per the CBA.

EDIT: Apologies for my idiocy. Shoney gets a minimum of $1.14M. I got his contract confused with Sullivan's (too many Scotts)

akingamongstmen
12-20-2003, 08:21 AM
I'll take my chances with Jon Rauch. He can't be worse than Schoeneweis, and he'll come much cheaper.

TheRockinMT
12-20-2003, 01:24 PM
Schoenweis wants to start and the Sox seemed agreeable. There must have been a good reason, or at least you hope there was some rational thought in that idea. If he is non-tendered I see it as another downsizing and dismantling of the team.

mac9001
12-20-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by MisterB
Unfortunately if the Sox offer arbitration they have to pay him at least $2.24M per the CBA.

That's too much, not a penny over $1.75M and i'd be happy with him as the 5th starter. If he asks for more non-tender him, he'll be lucky to get half that on the open maket.

DrCrawdad
12-20-2003, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo
Curious what people's thoughts are on Schoeneweis' upcoming arbitration. I'm in favor of non-tendering him. We don't need another 5 and a half ERA starting or relieving, and I'm led to believe that he would make somewhere along the lines of 1.5mil or so. I don't want him starting in the first place, and I'll be fine with someone like Arnie Munoz or Dave Sanders coming out of the pen instead of him. Comments?

So is Schoeneweiss now a former White Sox? Is that what happens if they non-tendered him?

Lip Man 1
12-20-2003, 01:46 PM
Look at it in these terms....

The Sox who already need one starter are going to let this guy go
over three million dollars? Makes perfect sense to me.

Or how about this way.....

So basically they give Gary Glover away...for nothing!

Again makes perfect sense in the White Sox world.

If the Sox can't afford three million on a pitcher maybe they are about to go broke. (That would be good for a laugh...) also the way some of the posters here squeeze these salary contracts you'd think it was their money they weren't spending.

Lip

joecrede
12-20-2003, 01:55 PM
Giving away Gary Glover for nothing. That is troubling.

dickallen15
12-20-2003, 01:57 PM
The Angels gave Schoenweiss away for nothing using that logic. Glover signed a minor league contract with the Cubs a couple of days ago, and was not being used by Manuel. You really are complaining about trading Gary Glover? This really is unbelievable. If they decide to non tender Schoenweiss, who really cares. People were complaining when he went into games and got lit up, now its time to complain the Sox won't give him $2 million a year, which came just after they complained the Sox signed Lee for $6.5 million this year. I doubt there is anything the White Sox could do, short of signing every remaining free agent, and bringing the payroll up to at least $200 million that would please the majority on this board. Who should the White Sox sign, and what should they pay for them? What should the White Sox payroll be?

StillMissOzzie
12-21-2003, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by voodoochile
Isn't he in the running for one of the two remaining starter slots? I will be surprised if they let him walk...

I did not see his name on the list of non-tenders on MLB.com. If I understand the CBA and related stuff, then can I assume that the Sox did at least make an offer?

SMO
:gulp:

Jjav829
12-21-2003, 02:45 AM
Originally posted by StillMissOzzie
I did not see his name on the list of non-tenders on MLB.com. If I understand the CBA and related stuff, then can I assume that the Sox did at least make an offer?

SMO
:gulp:

Not really, they haven't announced anything either way which is why his name isn't on there. The Sox are the last team to announce their decision. We should know soon.

doublem23
12-21-2003, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by akingamongstmen
I'll take my chances with Jon Rauch. He can't be worse than Schoeneweis, and he'll come much cheaper.

Rauch don't throw with his left hand, though.

doublem23
12-21-2003, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
Giving away Gary Glover for nothing. That is troubling.

I think Texas was going to give us A-Rod and take on his salary, but KW insisted Glover was just too valuable...

C'mon, Gary Glover? The guy is a walking definition of 'nothing.'

RichH55
12-21-2003, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
I think Texas was going to give us A-Rod and take on his salary, but KW insisted Glover was just too valuable...

C'mon, Gary Glover? The guy is a walking definition of 'nothing.'


He joins the Herbert Perry/Sean Lowe much ado about nothing yet still whining Hall of Fame

Much like the Chris Singleton/Mike Caruso .300 Average All-Stars

Realist
12-21-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Look at it in these terms....

The Sox who already need one starter are going to let this guy go
over three million dollars? Makes perfect sense to me.

Or how about this way.....

So basically they give Gary Glover away...for nothing!

Again makes perfect sense in the White Sox world.

If the Sox can't afford three million on a pitcher maybe they are about to go broke. (That would be good for a laugh...) also the way some of the posters here squeeze these salary contracts you'd think it was their money they weren't spending.

Lip

Wasn't it Glover that Sandy Alomar jr. said had the best "stuff" in the Sox organization AFTER Alomar was traded in 2002? Maybe I'm wrong. I heard an interview with Sandy after he left us and he sounded EXTREMELY intelligent and thoughful and he mentioned either Glover or Wright (I'm pretty sure it was Glover) as the guy with the best natural abilility in the Sox organization.

Although I believe Sandy is in his twilight days as a player, I'm glad he's with as a presence on the bench (too bad his bro ain't with him. they both play much better when they're together) and I expect Sandy to make one hell of a manager one day. Maybe he'll even be player/manager a la Don Kessinger if Ozzie implodes.

dickallen15
12-21-2003, 10:29 AM
Schoenweiss was non tendered. So, in essence, the great Gary Glover, who is so great he just last week agreed to a minor league contract with the Cubs, was given away for nothing. How could they just give Gary Glover away? His ERA as a starter was under 7.00, I believe.

gogosoxgogo
12-21-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by doublem23
Rauch don't throw with his left hand, though.

Neither does Mark Prior, Josh Beckett, or Pedro Martinez so I guess that means that they are pretty bad pitchers too, huh?. I'm so sick of people thinking that a pitcher is so much better simply because he's a left-hander. If a pitcher can get someone out, I don't care what hand he throws with.

brewcrew/chisox
12-21-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by gogosoxgogo


Neither does Mark Prior, Josh Beckett, or Pedro Martinez so I guess that means that they are pretty bad pitchers too, huh?. I'm so sick of people thinking that a pitcher is so much better simply because he's a left-hander. If a pitcher can get someone out, I don't care what hand he throws with.


To put John Rauch even in the same breath with Prior, Beckett and Martinez is ludicrous. It's as silly as arguing that Randy Johnson pitches with his left hand so we should keep Scott. I believe what Doublem23 (sorry if I'm off base here Doublem23)meant was that having another left hander in the starting rotation would serve as a greater balance, and if it comes down to choosing between Rauch and Scott, the team should probably go with Scott.

If you ask me, both pitchers haven't really shown much, and if the team actually has to go with either, than the Whitesox are in for a world of hurt in that 5th position.

dickallen15
12-21-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by brewcrew/chisox
To put John Rauch even in the same breath with Prior, Beckett and Martinez is ludicrous. It's as silly as arguing that Randy Johnson pitches with his left hand so we should keep Scott. I believe what Doublem23 (sorry if I'm off base here Doublem23)meant was that having another left hander in the starting rotation would serve as a greater balance, and if it comes down to choosing between Rauch and Scott, the team should probably go with Scott.

If you ask me, both pitchers haven't really shown much, and if the team actually has to go with either, than the Whitesox are in for a world of hurt in that 5th position.

I think Rauch at $300,000 is a much better option compared to Schoenweiss at $2 million. Shoenweiss has a difficult time getting right handed hitters out. I think he is much better suited for a role in the bullpen than as a starter.

Lip Man 1
12-21-2003, 04:31 PM
Folks:

A few points...

Gary Glover was AWFUL as a starter, however he was pretty good as a bullpen guy for a few years. I don't think he's the next best thing to sliced bread but what was the point of trading him for a guy who would up not being tendered? What benefit do the Sox get out of it... on the field?

and more importantly now the Sox have TWO rotation spots open and with the free agent starting pitching roster shrinking by the day there is a possibility of having say both Rauch and Wright in the rotation.

With respect Dick, I could care less how much a guy makes. My bottom line is does this guy make the team better. As of right now Schowenweis did. Rauch is beat up, coming off two surgeries, Wright's confidence is shot and he was awful last season. I know about his injury but an independent doctor Dr. James Andrews, said his injury was no big deal. Wright apparently didn't beleive it and it showed.

With Rauch and Wright in the Sox rotation, that has the earmarks of a disaster waiting to happen. In fact it could turn into a situation much like when Glover was in the starting rotation despite getting hammered in 2002. Remember Manager Gandhi's comment when asked by the media why Glover was still in there? "We don't have any other options..."

Lip

dickallen15
12-21-2003, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Lip Man 1
Folks:

A few points...

Gary Glover was AWFUL as a starter, however he was pretty good as a bullpen guy for a few years. I don't think he's the next best thing to sliced bread but what was the point of trading him for a guy who would up not being tendered? What benefit do the Sox get out of it... on the field?

and more importantly now the Sox have TWO rotation spots open and with the free agent starting pitching roster shrinking by the day there is a possibility of having say both Rauch and Wright in the rotation.

With respect Dick, I could care less how much a guy makes. My bottom line is does this guy make the team better. As of right now Schowenweis did. Rauch is beat up, coming off two surgeries, Wright's confidence is shot and he was awful last season. I know about his injury but an independent doctor Dr. James Andrews, said his injury was no big deal. Wright apparently didn't beleive it and it showed.

With Rauch and Wright in the Sox rotation, that has the earmarks of a disaster waiting to happen. In fact it could turn into a situation much like when Glover was in the starting rotation despite getting hammered in 2002. Remember Manager Gandhi's comment when asked by the media why Glover was still in there? "We don't have any other options..."

Lip

Glover was let go by the Angels, and none of the 30 teams thought enough of him to give him a major league contract. I'm sure they were negotiating with Scho, but when it became apparent he wasn't up for a cut, and wanted to go to arbitration, it was time to say goodbye. They were trying to win last year, thats why they got Scho, they had to pick up a little salary, but they felt Scho would contribute more than Glover. Sometimes things don't work out.

vettemaster
12-21-2003, 10:51 PM
I still dont understand why several of you would not give Rauch a shot at one of the spots in the rotation in 2004. This monster is now healthy as a horse and he is going to suprise alot of people when spring training starts in Feb. He lost just ONE game in 27 starts in the minors and was hitting 93-94 on the gun late into games at the end of the season. Jon Rauch is NOT Randy Johnson! However, Jon IS 6' 11" and I have not seen any right handed pitcher that has the "STUFF" Rauch has when he is on. so why dont you all cut Jon Rauch some slack and see how the big man does in 2004. Rauch has a lot to prove and he knows what is at stake, so get ready to see Rauch win and earn one of the spots in the rotation in the spring.
Go SOX!! Good luck to Jon Rauch!

Daver
12-21-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by vettemaster
I still dont understand why several of you would not give Rauch a shot at one of the spots in the rotation in 2004. This monster is now healthy as a horse and he is going to suprise alot of people when spring training starts in Feb. He lost just ONE game in 27 starts in the minors and was hitting 93-94 on the gun late into games at the end of the season. Jon Rauch is NOT Randy Johnson! However, Jon IS 6' 11" and I have not seen any right handed pitcher that has the "STUFF" Rauch has when he is on. so why dont you all cut Jon Rauch some slack and see how the big man does in 2004. Rauch has a lot to prove and he knows what is at stake, so get ready to see Rauch win and earn one of the spots in the rotation in the spring.
Go SOX!! Good luck to Jon Rauch!

Vette,I fully expect Rauch to be in the rotation next year,unless KW pulls a miracle and signs three starting pitchers.

Does anyone really think that will happen?

DrCrawdad
12-21-2003, 11:14 PM
Sox will pay up for lefty
Schoeneweis gets arbitration offer

The White Sox beat the deadline and offered arbitration to left-hander Scott Schoeneweis late Saturday night.

Schoeneweis, who earned $1.45 million last year, was used in relief after being acquired from Anaheim in July. But with the loss of free agent Bartolo Colon to the Angels, Schoeneweis is expected to take the No. 4 spot in the Sox's rotation behind Esteban Loaiza, Mark Buehrle and Jon Garland.

LINK (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-031221sox,1,3657646.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)

JRIG
12-21-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by DrCrawdad


Just when you think the Sox might actually do something smart...

shbart
12-21-2003, 11:26 PM
I love when the Chicago papers are in agreement
http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox21.html

MRKARNO
12-22-2003, 12:10 AM
MLB.com earlier had him as a non-tender, but AP is saying now that he was not a non-tender (aka, was tendered a contract or got arbitration).

MRKARNO
12-22-2003, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Daver
Vette,I fully expect Rauch to be in the rotation next year,unless KW pulls a miracle and signs three starting pitchers.

Does anyone really think that will happen?

The thing about Rauch is that there hasn't been any hype for him and people are down on him because they dont know how he will come back from the injury

CubKilla
12-22-2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
The thing about Rauch is that there hasn't been any hype for him and people are down on him because they dont know how he will come back from the injury

There was some hype after the Olympics. Soon after, he tore his labrum (?), then failed to make the ML team in '02 and '03.

When healthy though, I'd compare his curveball to Zito's. His curve was downright wicked in a call-up start for Rauch that me and RPS were at in September of '02..... a win against Minnesota.

Lip Man 1
12-22-2003, 02:58 PM
The reason people are 'down' on Rauch is because his name has consistently been talked about as a future starter perhaps a future star since 2000. It's now the 2004 season and we still haven't seen it.

Granted it has not totally been his fault...his surgeries were serious hanidcaps but when he has had chances with the Sox he's been inconsistent.

I also think part of it is because for years fans have been told about the "can't miss kids" (i.e. pitchers) with very little to show for all of it by this oreganization. It's like the boy who cried wolf...after hearing it so many times with so many different pitchers and seeing so little results on the field you begin to get jaded.

Lip