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View Full Version : Sox avoid arbitration with Lee and Wunsch


MRKARNO
12-19-2003, 08:05 PM
According to Bruce Levine:

Carlos Lee: 2 years 15 mil with an option for a third year

Wunsch: 1 year 800,000

joecrede
12-19-2003, 08:13 PM
The Sox are not cheap. They're stupid.

dickallen15
12-19-2003, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
The Sox are not cheap. They're stupid.

So if they let Lee walk you would be happy with that? Or would you be complaining they were cheap?

joecrede
12-19-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
So if they let Lee walk you would be happy with that? Or would you be complaining they were cheap?

I'd prefer they deal or non-tender Lee before signing him for that much.

poorme
12-19-2003, 08:24 PM
That's a fair deal. Thank goodness about Wunsch. I thought they were going to non-tender him.

dickallen15
12-19-2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
I'd prefer they deal or non-tender Lee before signing him for that much.
He had a breakout season. I would guess his salary is fairly low this season, and would jump up significantly in year 2 when they get a couple of these other guys off the books.

joecrede
12-19-2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
He had a breakout season. I would guess his salary is fairly low this season, and would jump up significantly in year 2 when they get a couple of these other guys off the books.

Lee is an average offensive player for a LF'er. By comparison, On the open market, Carl Everett got $7M for two years.

dickallen15
12-19-2003, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Lee is an average offensive player for a LF'er. By comparison, On the open market, Carl Everett got $7M for two years.

Over 30 homeruns over 100 RBI, is average? Everett, didn't match those numbers this season, and is in the downswing in his career. Lee, chances are, is going to get even better.

joecrede
12-19-2003, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Over 30 homeruns over 100 RBI, is average? Everett, didn't match those numbers this season, and is in the downswing in his career. Lee, chances are, is going to get even better.

Last year, Lee's on-base percentage was .331 and his slugging percentage was .499.

Everett's on-base percentage was .366 and his slugging percentage was .510.

Over the next two years I'd be willing to wager that Everett remains the better offensive player. Or at worst he'll be the equal of Lee.

dickallen15
12-19-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by joecrede
Last year, Lee's on-base percentage was .331 and his slugging percentage was .499.

Everett's on-base percentage was .366 and his slugging percentage was .510.

Over the next two years I'd be willing to wager that Everett remains the better offensive player. Or at worst he'll be the equal of Lee.

And you never know when Carl is going to explode. His behavior in Boston cost him some money.

jeremyb1
12-19-2003, 09:15 PM
Yeah, I'd rather not give Carlos that much money. It'll make him pretty hard to deal at this point. A one year deal or simply going to arbitration would've worked out better and we'd still have plenty of opportunity to resign him in the future if we're willing to offer that much money.

I like the Wunsch move. Our pen would truly be in shambles if we non-tendered him as had been rumored. 800,000 is a fair sum.

dickallen15
12-19-2003, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by jeremyb1
Yeah, I'd rather not give Carlos that much money. It'll make him pretty hard to deal at this point. A one year deal or simply going to arbitration would've worked out better and we'd still have plenty of opportunity to resign him in the future if we're willing to offer that much money.

I like the Wunsch move. Our pen would truly be in shambles if we non-tendered him as had been rumored. 800,000 is a fair sum.

Would you think the 6.5 million they gave to him this year is fair? If he signed for one year at this price, he would be eligible for arbitration again next year, and the 8 million he gets next year is probably the minimum number he would get if he repeats his performance. There is another year after that with a 500,000 buyout. This is a very fair deal.

soxfan26
12-19-2003, 09:35 PM
I'm glad we signed them both. Now I just hope we keep them!

dickallen15
12-19-2003, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Would you think the 6.5 million they gave to him this year is fair? If he signed for one year at this price, he would be eligible for arbitration again next year, and the 8 million he gets next year is probably the minimum number he would get if he repeats his performance. There is another year after that with a 500,000 buyout. This is a very fair deal.

Actually, I think he would have been eligible for free agency next year. This locks him up for 3 seasons if Kenny wants him.

Daver
12-19-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Actually, I think he would have been eligible for free agency next year.

You would be correct on that.

jeremyb1
12-19-2003, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Would you think the 6.5 million they gave to him this year is fair? If he signed for one year at this price, he would be eligible for arbitration again next year, and the 8 million he gets next year is probably the minimum number he would get if he repeats his performance. There is another year after that with a 500,000 buyout. This is a very fair deal.

We could cut him loose instead of paying him 8 million he's probably not worth in '05 since he'll be elligible for free agency. Unless Carlos rediscovers what he was doing when he was taking pitches in the second half of '02 in a major way, it'll be awfully hard for him to be worth 8 million with our payroll in a season in which we're still on the hook for Paully's deal.

Soxfest
12-19-2003, 10:41 PM
Giving CL that kind of money is stupid, I would of traded his lazy lawn ornament ass a long time ago.

voodoochile
12-19-2003, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
According to Bruce Levine:

Carlos Lee: 2 years 15 mil with an option for a third year

So that's what they did with the other half of the Colon money...

duke of dorwood
12-20-2003, 12:05 AM
Lee was the most improved OF last year and Kills the Cubs. Thats enuf reason for me. Some guys complain about spending $ then moan when a quality player is locked up. SHEEEESH !!!!!!!

Man Soo Lee
12-20-2003, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Actually, I think he would have been eligible for free agency next year. This locks him up for 3 seasons if Kenny wants him.

Carlos only had 150 days of service time in '99, so I don't think he would have been a free agent until after the '05 season.

I like Carlos, but I think it would be a mistake to trade Maggs or let him walk after this year while paying $8 million to guys that are much easier to replace.

Is it a coincidence that hitting #2 in front of Frank and Maggs has produced career years for Lee and Valentin? Slappy Caruso hit .300 in that spot.

MRKARNO
12-20-2003, 01:09 AM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20031219&content_id=621012&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cha

He would not have been an FA till after 2005 unless we non-tendered him

hold2dibber
12-20-2003, 01:31 AM
I like Carlos, but I find it hard to believe that the Sox couldn't have signed him for less. Once again, the Sox pay more than they have to.

RedPinStripes
12-20-2003, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by joecrede
I'd prefer they deal or non-tender Lee before signing him for that much.

Why? So someone else can sign him for more money? It would happen.

hold2dibber
12-20-2003, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by dickallen15
He had a breakout season. I would guess his salary is fairly low this season, and would jump up significantly in year 2 when they get a couple of these other guys off the books.

Among qualified leftfielders last year (i.e., those with enough ABs to qualify for the batting title), Carlos ranked:

20th in OBP
12th in OPS
15th in AVG
4th in HRs
3rd in RBIs

I would say he was above average, but not by much. He had a somewhat similar (though undeniably inferior) year to Garrett Anderson - who has been better than Carlos for several years. Anderson made $5.5 million in '03. He had a somewhat similar year statistically speaking to Geoff Jenkins. Jenkins made $5.187 million in '03. He had a somewhat similar year statistically to Jay Payton. Payton made less than $2 million. The point is that although Carlos is good and I'm glad he's on the team, he should have been signed for less. I fear the Sox have once again paid somewhat a big chunk based upon a short period of good performance (see Koch, Billy and Konerko, Paul for the most recent examples).

CubKilla
12-20-2003, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Lee Kills the Cubs.

Like no one I've ever seen. It's like it is a mission for the man.

Too bad C Lee can't face the Cubs 162 games a year..... at least.

akingamongstmen
12-20-2003, 08:17 AM
All I have to say is "thank God." First off, locking up Wunsch was an absolute necessity given our weak bullpen. Carlos, on the other hand, is the big issue. While I do think that the salary is a bit on the high end, I believe that Carlos is on the verge of entering .300AVG, 40HR, 120RBI territory. Yes, I know that he's streaky, but if he reaches those numbers, then he's worth a lot more than $15 mil over two years.

Besides, if the Sox didn't lock them both up, these message boards would be filled with people whining about how management is cheap, and that they don't hang onto their best players. For once, can't we all try to be optimistic???

bestkosher
12-20-2003, 10:57 AM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20031219&content_id=621012&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cha

SoxOnTop
12-20-2003, 11:33 AM
Wunsch was a solid sign, but I wish they had traded away Lee since he could bring the most value. They guy is up and down and now we are staked for 6 mil this year and 8.5 mil next year. At least when we gave Konerko that solid contract he was a consistant .300 25+ HR for 4 years. Lee could easily be a huge bust. He costs us outs on the basepaths and in the field. And lets not forget that he had his breakout year hitting in front of Frank. Anyone see Vanentin reproduce his numbers from 2000? Unless Lee learns to take pitches like he did in 2002 (88 walks) this will be a huge mistake.

Plus it all but confirms the end of Magglio on the South Side. Bah Freakin' Humbug...

CubKilla
12-20-2003, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
Wunsch was a solid sign, but I wish they had traded away Lee since he could bring the most value.

Who says JR doesn't have trading C Lee in mind? JR wants to rid himself of Maggs when he's due to make money, so who says he didn't tell KW to start shopping C Lee immediately after C Lee signed?

Gumshoe
12-20-2003, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
Wunsch was a solid sign, but I wish they had traded away Lee since he could bring the most value. They guy is up and down and now we are staked for 6 mil this year and 8.5 mil next year. At least when we gave Konerko that solid contract he was a consistant .300 25+ HR for 4 years. Lee could easily be a huge bust. He costs us outs on the basepaths and in the field. And lets not forget that he had his breakout year hitting in front of Frank. Anyone see Vanentin reproduce his numbers from 2000? Unless Lee learns to take pitches like he did in 2002 (88 walks) this will be a huge mistake.

Plus it all but confirms the end of Magglio on the South Side. Bah Freakin' Humbug...

Carlos Lee is a winner out of the mold of Valentin. He plays hard all the time, and he produces. It is possible that he might not put up those type of numbers again, but I think he's coming into his own. He's good defensively now too, esp. for a LF.

What pitcher would you give up Lee to get? This is always the question. If we trade for pitching, WHO do we get? You've gotta give me well above Odalis Perez + prospects for Lee. Washburn AND Percival? Maybe.

Gumshoe

harwar
12-20-2003, 02:32 PM
I just don't know what C.Lee has to do for you guys to like him.He gets better every year offensively & defensively,and he is by no means lazy.He has fair speed but does need to work on his knowledge of how to run the bases(as do all the White Sox players)Ask around the clubhouse and they will tell you that the guy worked his ass off last winter and summer.I fully expect him to continue to improve.

soxtalker
12-20-2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Gumshoe
What pitcher would you give up Lee to get? This is always the question. If we trade for pitching, WHO do we get? You've gotta give me well above Odalis Perez + prospects for Lee. Washburn AND Percival? Maybe.

Gumshoe

I get the sense that "prospects" is often used as a generic term -- basically not worth very much, since these players haven't shown what they can do at the major league level. But the prospects that KW is supposedly asking Evans for are LA's top pitching prospects in the minors, and they are expected to move up to the majors soon.

If this is indeed the sort of trade that KW is contemplating -- and he gives out very little information -- it probably means that he's not only thinking of this coming season, but the following one.

doublem23
12-20-2003, 05:57 PM
Lee got himself another back-loaded deal... Maybe joeynach should inform us on how Carlos Lee's agent is screwing the Sox. But a $15 million deal for Carlos? Might be the death knell for Maggs' time in Chicago. Damn, I wish they'd have signed Everett.

MHOUSE
12-20-2003, 06:08 PM
Lee improved so much last year offensively, defensively, and just as an overall player that I think he deserves $6.5 million next season. $8 million in 2005 seems a little high unless he puts up ever better numbers. But I think he will be traded next offseason if/when we still suck and have no money. This deal basically ties him up in a Sox uni for 2004.

MHOUSE
12-20-2003, 06:10 PM
Also, glad to have Kelly Wunsch back for $800k. Very fair price for a solid reliever and good guy to have around. Welcome back Wunsch you ol' goofball!