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hsnterprize
12-19-2003, 07:16 AM
Hey Guys...

Can someone fill me in on the details of the infamous White Flag Trade of 1997? I'm just doing some research on it and comparing it to the lack of activity of the Sox this off-season. Thanks.

FoulkeFan
12-19-2003, 10:23 AM
The Sox who were at the time of the trade 3.5 games out of first place, traded Roberto Hernandez, Wilson Alvarez and Danny Darwin to San Francisco for Keith Foulke, Bobby Howry, Mike Caruso, Lorenzo Barcelo, Ken Vining and Tom Fordham.

Tekijawa
12-19-2003, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by FoulkeFan
The Sox who were at the time of the trade 3.5 games out of first place, traded Roberto Hernandez, Wilson Alvarez and Danny Darwin to San Francisco for Keith Foulke, Bobby Howry, Mike Caruso, Lorenzo Barcelo, Ken Vining and Tom Fordham.

The Sox also Aquired the rights to about 10,000 empty seats a game in the deal too...

poorme
12-19-2003, 10:26 AM
Change Fordham to Brian Manning and I concur. Had Barcelo not had arm problems and Caruso not been a headcase, that could have been a pretty good deal.

bestkosher
12-19-2003, 10:32 AM
whatever happened to slappy? i miss his style of hitting,

poorme
12-19-2003, 10:34 AM
I don't know. He wound up in the Reds organization but then disappeared. He had all the tools to be at least a decent player - maybe a secondbaseman.

CubKilla
12-19-2003, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by poorme
Change Fordham to Brian Manning and I concur. Had Barcelo not had arm problems and Caruso not been a headcase, that could have been a pretty good deal.

The "had's" are exactly one of the multitude of reasons why I do not want the White Sox to trade Maggs for prospects. Fair trade market value for Maggs or don't trade Maggs at all. Getting a boatload of prospects makes the future look bright. The only one out of all of the prospects mentioned to make anything of himself is Foulke. The rest either couldn't hack it in the ML's (Caruso), have become ML journeymen (Howry), have suffered career-ending injury (Barcelo), or haven't made it to the ML's at all for the White Sox (Vining/Fordham). Maggs should only be traded for prospects before the trading deadline if cheapskate refuses to entertain the idea of resigning Maggs at the end of the '04 season. At that point, it's take what you can get so you don't get nothing.

CubKilla
12-19-2003, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by bestkosher
whatever happened to slappy? i miss his style of hitting,

If you're talking about Caruso, I think he was in the KC minor leagues in '03.

poorme
12-19-2003, 10:53 AM
There are no minor league statistical records for him in 2003.

DirtySouthsider
12-19-2003, 12:29 PM
I still think the Sox got the better end of the deal....which isn't saying much. None of the guys the Sox gave up ended up doing much after they left Chicago. But we did get some serviceable out of Foulke and Howry. Caruso had one good year and Barcelo was lost to injury.

But to try to compare that to trading Maggs is wrong. We weren't giving up anything close to the value of Maggs. So if we were to give up Maggs for the same type of talent as in the White Flag Trade I'd be pissed!

miker
12-19-2003, 12:31 PM
I would imagine that the number one complaint by Sox fans wasn't who was traded but how and why it was done.

DirtySouthsider
12-19-2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by miker
I would imagine that the number one complaint by Sox fans wasn't who was traded but how and why it was done.


I agree. But to be honest, at the time I was one of the few Sox fans who wasn't completely irate about the trade. Granted the team was only 3.5 games back, but they sucked. They had so many opprotunities to take over the Indians and couldn't do it.
I can't rememeber if there were any players available to pick up to help the situation but the sox weren't good enough at the time.

But to make my stance clear.....I , myself, would have not made the trade.....but I can understand where it cam from.

BeerHandle
12-19-2003, 02:14 PM
I just looked at Caruso's stats and couldn't believe he hit .306 in 1998 for the Sox in about 131 games.

What happened to him? Is a mental midget?

Lip Man 1
12-19-2003, 02:26 PM
HSN (and others):

I think this will answer all your questions. Be prepared it's a long story and contains many direct quotes from the participants and commentaries from the Chicago columnists:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=1528

Lip

poorme
12-19-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
What happened to him? Is a mental midget?

He was rushed to the big leagues. Made a lot of errors. Sox tried "tough love" and sent him to the minors where he struggled and had some injuries. Here's the rest of his history:

December 14, 2000: Selected off waivers by the Seattle Mariners from the Chicago White Sox.

December 21, 2000: Granted Free Agency.

February 13, 2001: Signed as a Free Agent with the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

October 15, 2001: Granted Free Agency.

December 21, 2001: Signed as a Free Agent with the Cincinnati Reds.

April 28, 2002: Selected off waivers by the Kansas City Royals from the Cincinnati Reds.

October 15, 2002: Granted Free Agency.

mandmandm
12-19-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
I just looked at Caruso's stats and couldn't believe he hit .306 in 1998 for the Sox in about 131 games.

What happened to him? Is a mental midget?

Rumor has it he had some substance abuse issues.

SoxOnTop
12-19-2003, 03:10 PM
Don't forget that that in addition to being only 3.5 games out of 1st place, Robin Ventura has just returned to the line-up after what was nothing short of a MIRACULOUS recovery from a horrendous anckle injury in spring training. Herm Schnieder worked a absolute miracle with Robin and he was ready for the stretch run.

Robin's sentiment was basically; why the heck did I bust my rear to get back here? So that we could dump the season?

What could have been a tremendous story with Ventura coming back from a devastating injury to lead the Sox in a division battle down the stretch turned, became the most obvious showing by Sox management that winning was not priority #1. There is nothing like a division race to create excitement and pack the ballpark, but I guess JR will never understand that.

That is what made this event even more heartbreaking.

thecell
12-19-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Tekijawa
The Sox also Aquired the rights to about 10,000 empty seats a game in the deal too...

That has be one of the funniest things I've ever read on this board! :gulp:

maurice
12-19-2003, 03:55 PM
The problem with the WFT wasn't the players exchanged, though Barcelo had an arm injury BEFORE the trade, and the "key" player (Caruso) was a bust. The problem was that JR threw away a very winnable season. He dumped players for prospects at a time when he should have added talent for the stretch run against a very beatable Cleveland team.

Cleveland struggled to win 86 games, and they had no starter with an ERA under 4. Yet, they went on to play in a seven-game World Series that year. They lost by one run in the bottom of the 11th inning.

I agree that this is analogous to JR's refusal to add payroll in a very winnable AL Central.

Frater Perdurabo
12-19-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by maurice
The problem with the WFT wasn't the players exchanged, though Barcelo had an arm injury BEFORE the trade, and the "key" player (Caruso) was a bust. The problem was that JR threw away a very winnable season. He dumped players for prospects at a time when he should have added talent for the stretch run against a very beatable Cleveland team.

Cleveland struggled to win 86 games, and they had no starter with an ERA under 4. Yet, they went on to play in a seven-game World Series that year. They lost by one run in the bottom of the 11th inning.

I agree that this is analogous to JR's refusal to add payroll in a very winnable AL Central.

The truly disastrous move for 1997 was made during the previous offseason when Schueler chose to sign Jaime Navarro instead of Roger Clemens. If they had signed Clemens instead I think the Sox would have won at least two Series since then.

Sorry for re-opening old wounds...

Dan H
12-19-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by miker
I would imagine that the number one complaint by Sox fans wasn't who was traded but how and why it was done.

I agree with this completely. People who analyze whether the trade itself was a good one or not miss the point. The How and Why it was done did a lot of harm to the franchise. Of course, it doesn't help that the Sox haven't been to a World Series since.

steff
12-19-2003, 05:51 PM
I was in Annaheim at the time... it was not pretty. The best part was the shirts Robin had made...

"we just might be dumb enough to win this"


I wear it to bed occasionally.

steff
12-19-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by mandmandm
Rumor has it he had some substance abuse issues.


ROTFLMAO!!! "Rumor has it..."

No rumor.. it's a fact!

CubKilla
12-19-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by steff
ROTFLMAO!!! "Rumor has it..."

No rumor.. it's a fact!

Caruso couldn't handle his alcohol or are we talking illegal substances?

steff
12-19-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Caruso couldn't handle his alcohol or are we talking illegal substances?


Depending on which state you're in.... (insert smiling smoking a "blunt" here) :D:

poorme
12-19-2003, 05:57 PM
Oh, I thought it was something serious.

washington
12-19-2003, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by CubKilla
Caruso couldn't handle his alcohol or are we talking illegal substances?

I've heard that he smoked non-tobacco-containing materials

CubKilla
12-19-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by steff
Depending on which state you're in.... (insert smiling smoking a "blunt" here) :D:

So like this franchise then. Commence "White Flag Trade" and acquire Jeff Spicoli as the centerpiece.

Paulwny
12-19-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by bestkosher
whatever happened to slappy? i miss his style of hitting,

This site projects his future:

http://asbl.simleagues.com/asbl/p974.html