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bc2k
12-19-2003, 01:32 AM
Aaron Rowand’s defense is ripped on by posters who claim he doesn’t have the ability to run to the spot where he thinks a fly ball will land. They claim he just “drifts” to a spot, leaving him unaware of where he is on the field, and thus crashing into fences. It’s not so much drifting as it is running through a wall for his teammates and pitcher. Some things, like the shoulder he injured on the play, aren’t worth as much as what his pitcher was trying to accomplish. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7270&highlight=Aaron)

Background: Rowand spent more than half of last season with the White Sox, including 34 starts in the outfield, but still qualifies for this list. The most memorable moment of his first season came when he crashed into a wall taking away an extra-base hit to temporarily preserve a Mark Buehrle bid for a no-hitter. Rowand played with a sore shoulder and watched his batting average slide from .316 on Sept. 1.

The Sox have many holes to fill before Opening Day, but center field is not one of them. If you do believe it is a hole, surely you can’t believe it is a bigger hole than second base, starting pitching, bullpen, and possibility right field.

I believe the Sox need a minimum of 2 quality bullpen arms to complement Marte, Wunsch, and possibly Schoeneweis or Wright because of the undependable Koch. We also need a second baseman, a right fielder if Magglio is shipped, and a minimum of one starting pitcher even if they rely on the farm to produce a fifth starter.

The holes in the above paragraph are legitimate needs for the Sox. Center field is not a legitimate need. If Magglio is shipped, KW should be able to fill most of those needs by opening day while still keeping this team near budget. One need KW doesn't have to concern himself with is center field, where the grinder AROW is patrolling.

KingXerxes
12-19-2003, 11:06 AM
Having AR in centerfield doesn't bother me all that much.

FanOf14
12-19-2003, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Having AR in centerfield doesn't bother me all that much.

Ditto. Especially considering all the other holes on this team that need filling.

Hangar18
12-19-2003, 11:13 AM
The Sox have many holes to fill before Opening Day, but center field is not one of them. If you do believe it is a hole, surely you can’t believe it is a bigger hole than second base, starting pitching, bullpen, and possibility right field.

I believe the Sox need a minimum of 2 quality bullpen arms to complement Marte, Wunsch, and possibly Schoeneweis or Wright because of the undependable Koch. We also need a second baseman, a right fielder if Magglio is shipped, and a minimum of one starting pitcher even if they rely on the farm to produce a fifth starter.

The holes in the above paragraph are legitimate needs for the Sox. Center field is not a legitimate need. If Magglio is shipped, KW should be able to fill most of those needs by opening day while still keeping this team near budget. One need KW doesn't have to concern himself with is center field, where the grinder AROW is patrolling. [/B]

Ive always like Rowand esp healthy. His position im not as worried as I am with the other positions. We MUST FILL the holes of Positions we let Slip Away this offseason. Weve Needed a 2B/top of order guy since we Let Ray Durham leave (still pissed about that foolish move) We need a Top of the Staff Pitcher with K's ability since we Let Colon go. We need a 5th starter, since we didnt sign Kenny Rogers last yr......

SSN721
12-19-2003, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by KingXerxes
Having AR in centerfield doesn't bother me all that much.

I completely agree, I dont quite fathom all the AR haters that post, but I dont want to start that argument again, I think when healthy is at worst an average all around center fielder and at best he can be a hell of a hitter at times. My two cents :D:

Gumshoe
12-19-2003, 11:22 AM
Some WSI guys with sense! Amen to this post.

I just want the detractors to ask themselves this question:

Were the 2003 Chicago Cubs "good up the middle"?????

Hmmm... Alex Gonzalez, Grudz, Bako/Miller, Kenny Lofton

The others are solid, but by no means All Stars that one supposedly "NEEDS to win". Lofton is flat out BAD on D. I'm glad the Yankees have him. Talk about terrible routes to balls.

It's WHarris at 2nd for sure, and AR for sure in CF. Let's just go get Freddy G from Seattle, add a reliever, and we'll have a shot ...

Gumshoe

Randar68
12-19-2003, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by bc2k
Aaron Rowand’s defense is ripped on by posters who claim he doesn’t have the ability to run to the spot where he thinks a fly ball will land. They claim he just “drifts” to a spot, leaving him unaware of where he is on the field, and thus crashing into fences. It’s not so much drifting as it is running through a wall for his teammates and pitcher.

*****. Rowand has run into walls in meaningless games. "Drifting" and lack of field awareness are not being judged by the couple of wall-banging incidents, but rather the 1000's of innings I've seen him play that way on almost EVERY ball hit to CF.

Watch a game sometime and actually observe his tendancies.

Let me know when you actually see him set-up properly for a throw to 3rd or home, or when a high Fly ball is hit to the gap, let me know when he actually camps under it.... I'll be waiting a long damn time, because, in my memory of those 1000's of innings I've watching him play in person and television, I can't remember one instance of either.


Edit: Also, yeah, his offensive production must have been low because of the injuries, huh? WHAT? What was his excuse in 1000+ Minor League At-bats then? What's his excuse for his piss-poor performance in one of the lesser winter leagues? He's a AAAA player, and this team needs speed, OBP, and a good defensive CF'er between to corner OF'ers who have average-at-best range. He has NONE of those things.

Welcome to complete senility, folks, because Aaron Rowand isn't the answer to any question that ends in "Divisional Champs", let alone Al or World Series Champs.


:threadsucks

MRKARNO
12-19-2003, 11:56 AM
Well, Rowand did hit .387 from June to September. Even though it was only in 97 ABs, it shows you that he potentially can hit over a long period of time. I wouldnt be entirely surprised if he one day blossoms as a .300 hitter with 20 Homers. I mean, he hit .287 over the course of the season with 6 homers in 157 ABs. My theory is that Rowand started slow because of his injury, which is pretty obvious, but that he could still be a good hitter.

Realist
12-19-2003, 12:00 PM
I think Rowand has the potential to be an above average hitter and an average fielding defensive player.

I just with this thread had a different title because I keep clicking on it hoping to see pictures of Jenna Jameson.

CubKilla
12-19-2003, 12:43 PM
While AR isn't the glaring problem on the soon-to-be '04 White Sox (2B, #1 SP, and #5 SP being more important needed-moves than CF..... IMO), AR's place needs to be addressed if this team is serious about winning.

ma_deuce
12-19-2003, 12:52 PM
Rowand is not our problem. If he plays average ball, we will be just fine. Our problems include:

A. We need another starter
B. We need a reliable closer
C. Paul Konerko has to be consistent, in a good way
D. We need to resign Roberto Alomar
C. All the players need to concentrate on bringing in runners and not solely on the long ball
D. Fire Jerry Manuel (One down...)
E. Resign Mark Buerle (Two down...)

Fix these issues and we will be fine. This division is going to suck next year, and we should cake walk to the playoffs as long as the Sox don't shoot themselves in the foot (like last year).

WinningUgly!
12-19-2003, 01:04 PM
Aaron Rowand is a nice 4th outfielder / platoon player. Obviously, any team that has Rowand penciled in as their everyday CF is full of holes.

SoxOnTop
12-19-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Welcome to complete senility, folks, because Aaron Rowand isn't the answer to any question that ends in "Divisional Champs", let alone Al or World Series Champs.



$58 Mil is not the answer to any question starting with AL or WS Champs, either. Not in Chi-Town that is.

raul12
12-19-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by ma_deuce
Rowand is not our problem. If he plays average ball, we will be just fine. Our problems include:

A. We need another starter
B. We need a reliable closer
C. Paul Konerko has to be consistent, in a good way
D. We need to resign Roberto Alomar
C. All the players need to concentrate on bringing in runners and not solely on the long ball
D. Fire Jerry Manuel (One down...)
E. Resign Mark Buerle (Two down...)

Fix these issues and we will be fine. This division is going to suck next year, and we should cake walk to the playoffs as long as the Sox don't shoot themselves in the foot (like last year).

G. We need a reliable CF. Crash, reliable, and CF are three words that don't go together.

fuzzy_patters
12-19-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Realist
I think Rowand has the potential to be an above average hitter and an average fielding defensive player.

I just with this thread had a different title because I keep clicking on it hoping to see pictures of Jenna Jameson.

I agree. Some pictures of Jenna would definitely make Aaron Rowand more exciting.

doublem23
12-19-2003, 02:12 PM
The only positive Rowand brings is that at least he's somewhat seasoned and reliable filler for a hole, as opposed to the gaping ones we have elsewhere, but come on... Aaron Rowand?

thecell
12-19-2003, 02:48 PM
http://www.verticalmethod.com/misc/jenna.jpg

I like Aaron and so should you!! I love the way he bangs into walls.

Frater Perdurabo
12-19-2003, 03:19 PM
If they are not going to find a legitimate starting CF (and given both their self-imposed payroll restrictions and the fact that they have too much money tied up in too many unproductive players), I want to see a wide-open competition in Tuscon for the starting CF job between Rowand, Reed and Borchard, as Harris likely would be needed at 2B.

If Rowand beats out Reed and LTP for the spot, by hitting, running and fielding better, so be it. But I don't think Rowand is capable of that unless both Reed and LTP completely suck in spring training.

Randar68
12-19-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by SoxOnTop
$58 Mil is not the answer to any question starting with AL or WS Champs, either. Not in Chi-Town that is.

I will never argue with that, but enough of the Aaron Rowand love fest, "97 AB's" here and "102 AB's" there load of horse manure. This team has plenty of holes, but the Aaron Rowand Family Reunion is over the top. I won't be terribly upset if he's the opening day CF'er if they address most of the other major holes in this lineup, rotation, and bullpen.

voodoochile
12-19-2003, 03:24 PM
...by default.

Those are the missing words from the title of this thread.

Since the Sox have walked away from Everett and haven't signed anyone else to play CF, Rowand is the default CF on OD. I hope he is as successful as his backers believe he will be, but I am not going to jump up and down and yell, "Woohoo ARow!" until it is obvious he deserves it. Right now, he is just symptomatic of the problems that confront this franchise.

He is cheap. He is on the team. He is the only option available.

That doesn't mean he is the right man for the job...

Randar68
12-19-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo
If they are not going to find a legitimate starting CF (and given both their self-imposed payroll restrictions and the fact that they have too much money tied up in too many unproductive players), I want to see a wide-open competition in Tuscon for the starting CF job between Rowand, Reed and Borchard, as Harris likely would be needed at 2B.

If Rowand beats out Reed and LTP for the spot, by hitting, running and fielding better, so be it. But I don't think Rowand is capable of that unless both Reed and LTP completely suck in spring training.

Ahhh, a voice of reason from above. He's a try-hard player with few of the qualities this team REALLY needs from an everyday CF'er. Poor range and plate discipline and a complete inability to bunt or take walks. Sounds like almost everyone else, except he can't hit as well as most anyone else on the team as of now.

.250 in the Puerto Rican Winter League don't cut it, ladies and gentleman. Ross Gload is hitting .320 in the Mexican Pacific League, and people are still pissing their pants about the almighty Crash.

Rowand has less than a fraction of LTP's physical talent, and nowhere near that of Reed, who is just a good baseball player without top-notch tools.

We shall see, but if this team is going to be any good, Rowand being an everyday CF'er or a 4th outfielder will be a good indication of the kind of team Kenny has put together by April 1st.

Randar68
12-19-2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
He is cheap. He is on the team. He is the only option available.

That doesn't mean he is the right man for the job...

And we have a winner.

MRKARNO
12-19-2003, 03:35 PM
Well on a 58 million dollar budget, I think he's passable. Top to bottom we still have the best offense in the division with him. Maybe not with Willie Harris though....

Randar68
12-19-2003, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by MRKARNO
Well on a 58 million dollar budget, I think he's passable. Top to bottom we still have the best offense in the division with him. Maybe not with Willie Harris though....

I love how people can pass off Willie Harris' lack of MLB production on his terrible hitting skills but Rowand's are just symptomatic of not playing regularly, injuries, excuses, excuses.

Willie Harris has better career minor league averages and OBP than Rowand, and has much less of a chance to prove himself in the majors, but he's a terrible option?

Ugh. At least he has speed and range and gets his feet set to throw. Funny how a guy who has never played OF until this past year has better fundamentals than a guy who's been a career OF'er. The physical skills Harris has at least give him the ability to be a defensive playmaker and a demon on the basepaths, something Rowand cannot bring. Plus, with Ozzie as manager, what kind of player do you think he'd prefer?

Food for thought.

hold2dibber
12-19-2003, 03:43 PM
I could live with Crash as the starting center fielder IF:

(1) The Sox had a high OBP guy at 2B that could lead off;

(2) The Sox had corner outfielders with some range;

(3) The Sox already had plenty of left handed hitters in the line-up.

Of course, the Sox don't have any of these things. If Rowand were to be the every day starter all year, I'd guess he'd hit .255 with a .315 OBP, 18 HRs, .415 SLG. Teams have won championships with worse players starting every day (see Tony Womack and the Diamonbacks for an example). But because of all the other holes this team has, Rowand won't cut it.

MarqSox
12-19-2003, 04:21 PM
Am I the only one who sees this thread and keeps thinking it's porno spam? :D:

mdep524
12-19-2003, 05:38 PM
Rowand is certainly not an above-average anything. He's also not a terrible option in the OF- he's average in every way.

What the Sox should do is improve thier pitching as much as possible, (Ponson, Garcia, Williamson/Mota), maybe get a leadoff hitter (like Randy Wynn), conserve cash and then in the middle of the season trade for Carlos Beltran when the Royals realize they're SOL with him.

With Reed (who should NOT be rushed up to the big leagues in typical Sox fashion), Borchard, Andersona dn even Sweeney, the Sox have a huge depth of corner OFs, but none of them is a true CF, like Beltran is. Beltran would be worth the money of an extension.

Randar68
12-19-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by mdep524
Rowand is certainly not an above-average anything. He's also not a terrible option in the OF- he's average in every way.

What the Sox should do is improve thier pitching as much as possible, (Ponson, Garcia, Williamson/Mota), maybe get a leadoff hitter (like Randy Wynn), conserve cash and then in the middle of the season trade for Carlos Beltran when the Royals realize they're SOL with him.

With Reed (who should NOT be rushed up to the big leagues in typical Sox fashion), Borchard, Andersona dn even Sweeney, the Sox have a huge depth of corner OFs, but none of them is a true CF, like Beltran is. Beltran would be worth the money of an extension.

1) That should be in deeppink
2) Why in the WORLD would KC trade him to a divisional rival
3) HELLO! It's the SOX! Long Term Extension? Only if we can overpay or give it to a mediocre perrennial underacheiver.

Reed or LTP are alread better defensive OF'ers than Rowand, and if your eventual outfield consists of Anderson (Who is a natural CF'er for those of you who don't know) Reed and LTP or Sweeney, that's an outfield where both corners have above-average range and the CF'er has no worse than average range.

I don't know where in the world you got that "None is a natural CF'er" baloney... Reed is at least competent and Anderson has played there quite a bit, and only wasn't the everyday CF'er for most of his college career because they had a TERRIFIC defensive CF'er there.

RedPinStripes
12-19-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
*****. Rowand has run into walls in meaningless games. "Drifting" and lack of field awareness are not being judged by the couple of wall-banging incidents, but rather the 1000's of innings I've seen him play that way on almost EVERY ball hit to CF.

Watch a game sometime and actually observe his tendancies.

Let me know when you actually see him set-up properly for a throw to 3rd or home, or when a high Fly ball is hit to the gap, let me know when he actually camps under it.... I'll be waiting a long damn time, because, in my memory of those 1000's of innings I've watching him play in person and television, I can't remember one instance of either.


Edit: Also, yeah, his offensive production must have been low because of the injuries, huh? WHAT? What was his excuse in 1000+ Minor League At-bats then? What's his excuse for his piss-poor performance in one of the lesser winter leagues? He's a AAAA player, and this team needs speed, OBP, and a good defensive CF'er between to corner OF'ers who have average-at-best range. He has NONE of those things.

Welcome to complete senility, folks, because Aaron Rowand isn't the answer to any question that ends in "Divisional Champs", let alone Al or World Series Champs.


:threadsucks

Ya beat me to the famous tag.

jabrch
12-19-2003, 06:18 PM
This is so old news...

Rowand is fine - for a low budget team as a fourth OF. He is not a good starting CF for a team in the third largest market. I don't see how this is debateable. If you think we should be resigning Maggs, you certainly should think we can do better than Aaron Rowand. (Geez, Kenny Lofton is better than Rowand)

I just am so tired of this discussion cuz it is so old news.

I'd rather debate McKay Christensen or Mike Caruso for crying out loud - at least we haven't done that 20 times this month.

StepsInSC
12-19-2003, 08:40 PM
Slighty off topic question time.


If "ARow" becomes the next big thing since sloppy joe's, and the name "ARow" does in fact catch on, should it be pronounced "A Row" or "Arrow". I kind of like the latter. Although if you say "Arow" with strong enough of a southern accent, it kind of sounds like you're saying "arrow" anyways.

Daver
12-19-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by StepsInSC
Slighty off topic question time.


If "ARow" becomes the next big thing since sloppy joe's, and the name "ARow" does in fact catch on, should it be pronounced "A Row" or "Arrow". I kind of like the latter. Although if you say "Arow" with strong enough of a southern accent, it kind of sounds like you're saying "arrow" anyways.

To think that an average ballplayer could ever be associated with something as pure as the bow and arrow makes me slightly ill.

I think Fred Bear just rolled over in his grave.

Randar68
12-19-2003, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by Daver
To think that an average ballplayer could ever be associated with something as pure as the bow and arrow makes me slightly ill.

I think Fred Bear just rolled over in his grave.

*****! I hear ya, Daver. I think associating him with anything of greater than average connotation is simply mind-boggling.

TornLabrum
12-20-2003, 09:11 AM
The praise for Aaron Rowand in this thread is symptomatic of what the fans on the AOL White Sox board call "Greg Norton Syndrome": overvaluing mediocre players who wear a Sox uniform.

As has been said elsewhere in this thread, Rowand would be a nice fourth outfielder on a decent team. In other words, think Tony Graffanino in the outfield.

I have one thing to say in praise of Rowand. He's better than Jeff Abbott was.

StepsInSC
12-20-2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Daver
To think that an average ballplayer could ever be associated with something as pure as the bow and arrow makes me slightly ill.

I think Fred Bear just rolled over in his grave.

I was thinking more along the lines of 'arrow' because he reminds of that horrible movie, Weekend at Bernie's 2. The dead bernie walking around running into walls with an arrow stuck in his head kind of reminds of me of ole 'ARow'.

red faber
12-21-2003, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Randar68
*****. Rowand has run into walls in meaningless games. "Drifting" and lack of field awareness are not being judged by the couple of wall-banging incidents, but rather the 1000's of innings I've seen him play that way on almost EVERY ball hit to CF.

Watch a game sometime and actually observe his tendancies.

Let me know when you actually see him set-up properly for a throw to 3rd or home, or when a high Fly ball is hit to the gap, let me know when he actually camps under it.... I'll be waiting a long damn time, because, in my memory of those 1000's of innings I've watching him play in person and television, I can't remember one instance of either.


Edit: Also, yeah, his offensive production must have been low because of the injuries, huh? WHAT? What was his excuse in 1000+ Minor League At-bats then? What's his excuse for his piss-poor performance in one of the lesser winter leagues? He's a AAAA player, and this team needs speed, OBP, and a good defensive CF'er between to corner OF'ers who have average-at-best range. He has NONE of those things.

Welcome to complete senility, folks, because Aaron Rowand isn't the answer to any question that ends in "Divisional Champs", let alone Al or World Series Champs.


:threadsucks


or even wild card champs for that matter!!!!!!!!!!!!

hillbilly
12-21-2003, 01:20 AM
So many replys saying the same thing basically...Arrow's the answer because he's there but he's not the right answer. And by the way im new here and what the **** does LTP mean??

doublem23
12-21-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by hillbilly
So many replys saying the same thing basically...Arrow's the answer because he's there but he's not the right answer. And by the way im new here and what the **** does LTP mean??

LTP is Joe Borchard. It stands for "Light Tower Power," though I can't recall where the name came from, I am pretty sure it was our Cub fan extraordinaire, Vic, who brought the term to WSI.

hillbilly
12-21-2003, 01:38 AM
Thats so true he does mash the ball. Hes gonna be a drill seargent when hes done from baseball too.

WinningUgly!
12-21-2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by hillbilly
So many replys saying the same thing basically...Arrow's the answer because he's there but he's not the right answer. And by the way im new here and what the **** does LTP mean??

WSI Dictionary (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/glossary.php?s=&ltr=L)

Frater Perdurabo
12-21-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Ahhh, a voice of reason from above.

Thanks for the kind words. :smile:

Originally posted by Randar68
He's a try-hard player with few of the qualities this team REALLY needs from an everyday CF'er. Poor range and plate discipline and a complete inability to bunt or take walks. Sounds like almost everyone else, except he can't hit as well as most anyone else on the team as of now.

.250 in the Puerto Rican Winter League don't cut it, ladies and gentleman. Ross Gload is hitting .320 in the Mexican Pacific League, and people are still pissing their pants about the almighty Crash.

Rowand has less than a fraction of LTP's physical talent, and nowhere near that of Reed, who is just a good baseball player without top-notch tools.

We shall see, but if this team is going to be any good, Rowand being an everyday CF'er or a 4th outfielder will be a good indication of the kind of team Kenny has put together by April 1st.

If my opinion is in any way "a voice of reason," its only because of reading scouting reports from the likes of WSI's resident talent evaluators such as yourself (Randar), Daver and others who I forget at present but to whom we all owe a debt of gratitude.

:)

Based on your scouting reports that I have read, the White Sox outfield of 2008 looks mighty promising....

Gumshoe
12-21-2003, 11:46 PM
He's a try-hard player with few of the qualities this team REALLY needs from an everyday CF'er. Poor range and plate discipline and a complete inability to bunt or take walks. Sounds like almost everyone else, except he can't hit as well as most anyone else on the team as of now.

Poor range? Randar, you are SO OFF on AR defensively, it's ridiculous. He is a top CF in all range statistics by stats AND diamond mind. It isn't a coincidence that I think he's good AND he's judged as good in these categories.

Fine, he's not a superstar hitter, but he can be above average. And if you take C. Everett and play him defensively, you've gotta be nuts. If starting a player between the two every day, even with the SAME salary, I go with AR. Since AR costs 7 MIL less, it's a no f'n brainer ... unless Everett gets bionic legs somehow, jeez he's got no knees

Gumshoe

ps - can you please tell me WHAT the "answer" is? That is the dumbest thing ever. We can win with AR ... let's get pitching.