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View Full Version : What is with the Score guys?


Palehose13
12-18-2003, 12:37 PM
Ok, I understand that for the most part they are idiots. However, I can't believe their idiocy today! Due to my job, I can only hear snippets throughout the day, and what I hear I don't like. Most say that this trade would be bad unless Nomar is traded for pitching. I'm sorry, but there is NO WAY Maggs or Nomar is worth Perez and Mota. I know the Sox need pitching, but why trade a premier SS for a questionable pitcher? If someone wants Nomar or Magglio, I want a QUALITY PROVEN starter. JR has indicated that he would be willing to increase the budget if it improves the team, so maybe that means Ponson. I can't agree with any radio personality that I have heard today. None seem to understand that Valentin and/or Mags will most likely be moved for pitching. If this trade goes down, i think we see SIGNIFICANT changes and will have a quality team on the field. If not, I think we are looking at the team for 2004 as it is now. Which would you rather have?

CLR01
12-18-2003, 12:41 PM
http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/col_rozner.asp?intid=37973175


Start a bidding war Kenny.

CHISOXFAN13
12-18-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Ok, I understand that for the most part they are idiots. However, I can't believe their idiocy today! Due to my job, I can only hear snippets throughout the day, and what I hear I don't like. Most say that this trade would be bad unless Nomar is traded for pitching. I'm sorry, but there is NO WAY Maggs or Nomar is worth Perez and Mota. I know the Sox need pitching, but why trade a premier SS for a questionable pitcher? If someone wants Nomar or Magglio, I want a QUALITY PROVEN starter. JR has indicated that he would be willing to increase the budget if it improves the team, so maybe that means Ponson. I can't agree with any radio personality that I have heard today. None seem to understand that Valentin and/or Mags will most likely be moved for pitching. If this trade goes down, i think we see SIGNIFICANT changes and will have a quality team on the field. If not, I think we are looking at the team for 2004 as it is now. Which would you rather have?

M,y biggest complaint is they keep comparing Maggs to Nomar like it's a straight up deal.

Scott Williamson is hardly a throw in to the deal.

Palehose13
12-18-2003, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
M,y biggest complaint is they keep comparing Maggs to Nomar like it's a straight up deal.

Scott Williamson is hardly a throw in to the deal.

Exactly! And IMO it is harder to find a SS like Nomar than a corner OF like Maggs.

wood28
12-18-2003, 01:00 PM
Start a bidding war for Nomar??

Maybe KW will try to get Colon back from the Angels

princek
12-18-2003, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by CHISOXFAN13
M,y biggest complaint is they keep comparing Maggs to Nomar like it's a straight up deal.

Scott Williamson is hardly a throw in to the deal.


The deal has been reported to also include Neal Cotts who will then be shipped to Texas.

hold2dibber
12-18-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
Ok, I understand that for the most part they are idiots. However, I can't believe their idiocy today! Due to my job, I can only hear snippets throughout the day, and what I hear I don't like. Most say that this trade would be bad unless Nomar is traded for pitching. I'm sorry, but there is NO WAY Maggs or Nomar is worth Perez and Mota. I know the Sox need pitching, but why trade a premier SS for a questionable pitcher? If someone wants Nomar or Magglio, I want a QUALITY PROVEN starter. JR has indicated that he would be willing to increase the budget if it improves the team, so maybe that means Ponson. I can't agree with any radio personality that I have heard today. None seem to understand that Valentin and/or Mags will most likely be moved for pitching. If this trade goes down, i think we see SIGNIFICANT changes and will have a quality team on the field. If not, I think we are looking at the team for 2004 as it is now. Which would you rather have?

I'm not sure if I understand your post. You seem to say that the proposed deal (Maggs to Boston then Nomar to LA) would be a bad deal for the Sox, but then you say if the trade goes down we'll have a quality team on the field. :?:

In any event, in your cricism of the trade, you entirely ignore several extremely important aspects of the proposed deal:

(1) The Sox would get not only Perez and Mota for Maggs, they'd get Scott Williamson. That's two elite relievers and a solid starter (who is still young and has a high ceiling). That's not a bad return.

(2) Maggs will make $14 million next year. Perez/Mota/Williamson combined will probably make about $9 million. So the Sox not only get two elite relievers and a solid starter, they also get $5 million in payroll flexibility.

(3) Some rumors suggest that the Sox would also get a highly touted pitching prospect from LA.

(4) If the Sox don't proceed with these deals, they are very likely (IMHO) to get a lot less when they ultimately do trade Maggs (or Lee or Thomas). Remember, they're in a payroll pinch right now and they're going to have to do something to free up payroll. I honestly think that if this trade doesn't go through, we're going to see some other trade of one of the Sox big bats and they sure as hell won't be getting 2 elite relievers, a solid starter and $5 million bucks in return.

BeerHandle
12-18-2003, 01:13 PM
The fact is most of the guys on the score are idiots and all Bernstein does is whine. Their job is to cause a stir and it looks like they have succeeded.

I would rather keep Nomar, move Valentin, then go after Ponson and work on the PK for Perez deal.

Bernstein are you reading this thread? Wouldn't that give us pitching and the second best short stop in the game!!!!

Brian26
12-18-2003, 01:13 PM
Dibber:

First of all, what makes you think the $5 million goes back into the team? The point of all of this is to trim payroll. Therefore, the $5 million may be taken off the table and placed back into JR's pocket.

Turns out that Mota is a 30-year old pitcher. I wouldn't classify him as elite. Williamson also was way too erratic last year to be classified as an elite reliever.

The pitching prospect might work out, or it could be the second coming of Scott Ruffcorn.

I'll take my chances with Maggs or Nomar.

Palehose13
12-18-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
The fact is most of the guys on the score are idiots and all Bernstein does is whine. Their job is to cause a stir and it looks like they have succeeded.

I would rather keep Nomar, move Valentin, then go after Ponson and work on the PK for Perez deal.

Bernstein are you reading this thread? Wouldn't that give us pitching and the second best short stop in the game!!!!

Thank you for making my point succintly. Dibber...that is what I was trying to say.

hold2dibber
12-18-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Brian26
Dibber:

First of all, what makes you think the $5 million goes back into the team? The point of all of this is to trim payroll. Therefore, the $5 million may be taken off the table and placed back into JR's pocket.

I didn't say they'd use the money on players. They probably wouldn't. The point, however, is that improves the team and gets them the payroll relief they want. They're going to trim that payroll somehow. Remember what the Braves got for Millwood last year? That's the kind of deal we could be looking at. This trade, OTOH, achieves the goal of bolstering the pitching staff and reducing payroll. A hell of a lot better than a move than simply reduces payroll.

Turns out that Mota is a 30-year old pitcher. I wouldn't classify him as elite. Williamson also was way too erratic last year to be classified as an elite reliever.

Mota isn't a youngster, but he has more miles left in his arm than most 30 year old pitchers, because he didn't become a pitcher until his mid-to-late 20s. He was a position player before that. Here are his stats from last year:

105 IPs, 99 Ks, .206 BAA (!), 0.99 WHIP (!), 1.97 ERA (!). If that's not elite, there is no elite.

As for Williamson, here are his ERAs for the last few years (setting aside for a moment his Boston stats):

'99: 2.41
'00: 3.41
'02: 2.92
'03: 3.19 (Cincy only)

He's only 27 years old. His first 20 IPs in Boston last year were atrocious, but once he settled in, he was absolutely lights out (1.13 ERA and 0.78 WHIP in the playoffs).

If you want to take your chances with Maggs or Nomar next year, that's fine. But that also means you're taking your chances with BOTH Jon Rauch and Neil Cotts in the rotation and BOTH Jon Atkins and Matt Ginter in the pen.

hold2dibber
12-18-2003, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
The fact is most of the guys on the score are idiots and all Bernstein does is whine. Their job is to cause a stir and it looks like they have succeeded.

I would rather keep Nomar, move Valentin, then go after Ponson and work on the PK for Perez deal.

Bernstein are you reading this thread? Wouldn't that give us pitching and the second best short stop in the game!!!!

That's a pipedream dude. The Sox need to TRIM payroll to get down to the $58 million budget. The Maggs for Nomar/Williamson deal is a wash financially. I think it's highly, highly unlikely the Sox will be able to trade Jose for anyone good who is cheap. If they are able to deal him for a starter, it'll be someone like Garcia, who makes as much or more. Can you name a team that has a good cheap starting pitcher it would be willing to depart with in order to land Jose at $5 million on the last year of his contract? And PK for Perez isn't going to happen - and even if it did, it would only save the Sox about $4 million. They'd still be over budget by a little and wouldn't have nearly enough $ left to afford Ponson. Plus, the bullpen would still be pretty thin. Plus, Garciaparra would leave after next season. Plus, the Sox still wouldn't have a right fielder. Plus, they wouldn't have a 1B/DH to take PK's place.

Now, if JR would open the purse strings and commit to a $70 payroll, I would probably agree with you. But that's the mother of all pipedreams.

Palehose13
12-18-2003, 02:28 PM
The Sox need to TRIM payroll to get down to the $58 million budget.
KW indicated (story on whitesox.com, I can't get it at work otherwise I would post it) that JR is willing to go beyond the 58M, not a lot, but IMHO, an extra 5M could make a difference with the right moves.

duke of dorwood
12-18-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by BeerHandle
The fact is most of the guys on the score are idiots and all Bernstein does is whine. Their job is to cause a stir and it looks like they have succeeded.

I would rather keep Nomar, move Valentin, then go after Ponson and work on the PK for Perez deal.

Bernstein are you reading this thread? Wouldn't that give us pitching and the second best short stop in the game!!!!

BINGO-Avoid that wasted frequency at all costs-especially if you want credible information

hold2dibber
12-18-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Palehose13
KW indicated (story on whitesox.com, I can't get it at work otherwise I would post it) that JR is willing to go beyond the 58M, not a lot, but IMHO, an extra 5M could make a difference with the right moves.

Wasn't the report that he'd do it for a player that is a real difference maker? Who the hell knows what that means. But I doubt that it's Freddy Garcia or someone else the Sox could reasonably hope of getting.

Palehose13
12-18-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Wasn't the report that he'd do it for a player that is a real difference maker? Who the hell knows what that means. But I doubt that it's Freddy Garcia or someone else the Sox could reasonably hope of getting.

Not exactly sure, I read it at 6am. I believe it was a new article on the front page and the end of the story indicated that JR would be willing to increase the payroll for a player(s) who would improve the team. That made me a little happy and hopeful.

santo=dorf
12-18-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Wasn't the report that he'd do it for a player that is a real difference maker? Who the hell knows what that means. But I doubt that it's Freddy Garcia or someone else the Sox could reasonably hope of getting.

I guess JR and KW don't think Colon was a difference maker. Maybe he'll use the money to sign Clemens!

BeerHandle
12-18-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
Wasn't the report that he'd do it for a player that is a real difference maker? Who the hell knows what that means. But I doubt that it's Freddy Garcia or someone else the Sox could reasonably hope of getting.

I read that it had to be a difference maker as well. However, a big name pitcher is just that. If the Sox can make some very positive moves in addiition to the positive renovations then Uncle Jerry has nothing to worry about from attracting the corwd back as we go after the Central Pennant!