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View Full Version : I cant understand all you magglio lovers!


habibharu
12-18-2003, 12:11 PM
so many people on this board are talkin about how this trade would suck for us. i cant understand why. even if we just get nomar and williamson we still win big. i agree that mags is awesome but nomar has the same stats and he is a SS!!! it is much easier to find a OF like mags than a SS like nomar! i too love mags and would hate seeing him leave, but nomar is awesome. plus we get williamson!

TaylorStSox
12-18-2003, 12:14 PM
I completely agree. Also, I don't think that KW moves Maggs if he can sign him. There's been rumors about Maggs wanting to jump ship for 2 years. That coupled with the fact that he turned down an extension makes me think that KW knows what he's doing.


Nomar also gives this team a true marketable superstar. We've had superstars before but none who were able to promote Sox baseball like Nomar's capable of doing.

Rocky Soprano
12-18-2003, 12:17 PM
The biggest problem is that Nomar is on his last year as well. So what happens when he leaves next year?

Then we traded Maggs for a rent a player, and a pitcher.

Excuse me while I jump for joy!

If our owner wasnt so cheap we wouldnt be in this situation.

habibharu
12-18-2003, 12:18 PM
if we get nomar, we could trade jose and get pitching. we would then have a pretty good team. if we dont get a FA OF, we could play reed or borchard. that isnt too bad. if we didnt have nomar, we would be screwed at SS after this year or next year. jose is getting old and we dont have any good, young SS whatsoever

thecell
12-18-2003, 12:19 PM
I agree as well. Magglio wants to lead. He says it's too cold and his wife wants him to play somewhere warmer. Why should we lose him to free agency when we can cash in now? Magglio is a great player, but Nomar's numbers are very similar. Nothing against Maggs but he struck me as a lazy player sometimes...plus his GIDP don't help. Anyway, I'm glad KW is looking ahead and trying to get something in return. When does the Jeremy Reed era begin?

habibharu
12-18-2003, 12:21 PM
rocky, ur right about the contract, but if we cant sign him at least we still have williamson and then we can trade nomar for prospects. and by the way, i think that it would be easier to sign nomar than mags since his agent has a good relationship with the chairman

Mammoo
12-18-2003, 12:21 PM
Nomar is said to be disappointed at the thought of playing in Chicago, so he'll boogie at the end of the year, probably for LA.

Which leaves us with this Williamson guy... :(:

I think not; sign Maggs!

habibharu
12-18-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Mammoo
Nomar is said to be disappointed at the thought of playing in Chicago, so he'll boogie at the end of the year, probably for LA.

Which leaves us with this Williamson guy... :(:

I think not; sign Maggs!

yeah but we're not gonna sign mags!! otherwise KW wouldnt even consider trading him!. and BTW, even if we are "left" with williamson, it isnt too bad since he can be the closer of the future.

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
The biggest problem is that Nomar is on his last year as well. So what happens when he leaves next year?

Then we traded Maggs for a rent a player, and a pitcher.

Excuse me while I jump for joy!

If our owner wasnt so cheap we wouldnt be in this situation.

Magglio is a "rent-a-player" too if the Sox don't get him inked to an extension. He is just as likely to be gone next fall.

The Sox will get the same 2 first round compensation picks for either one of them anyway...

Rocky Soprano
12-18-2003, 12:31 PM
Yeah so we get a couple of pitchers, yes pitchers are the most important position. But fans dont go to see pitchers named williamson, mota, perez, etc.

So yeah we might have a strong pitching staff but our offense will suck.

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
Yeah so we get a couple of pitchers, yes pitchers are the most important position. But fans dont go to see pitchers named williamson, mota, perez, etc.

So yeah we might have a strong pitching staff but our offense will suck.

Offense is easier to replace... Much easier to replace and the Sox have a ton of corner OF in the minors who are close to being ready.

I don't want to trade Maggs for nothing, but if they can get the salary relief they need, upgrade the pitching staff and not take too much of a step back offensively, they have to consider it.

If it opens up doorways to move more high priced talent (Konerko to LA either with or without Nomar in tow or Valentin to Seattle) then all of a sudden it helps the team tremendously.

CLR01
12-18-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
Yeah so we get a couple of pitchers, yes pitchers are the most important position. But fans dont go to see pitchers named williamson, mota, perez, etc.

So yeah we might have a strong pitching staff but our offense will suck.


We've had Maggs and a strong offense the last 4 years and we have a sweep in the ALDS to show for it. Maybe it's time for a new direction?

habibharu
12-18-2003, 12:37 PM
yeah but what the hell will we do about mags? if he isnt traded he'll leave and we'll have nothing. at least with nomar we get other players.

jabrch
12-18-2003, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Rocky Soprano
Yeah so we get a couple of pitchers, yes pitchers are the most important position. But fans dont go to see pitchers named williamson, mota, perez, etc.

So yeah we might have a strong pitching staff but our offense will suck.


Realistically, fans for the most part dont go to see Magglio either. They go to see the Sox win. As long as this deal helps us do that, I don't care who is playing in the field.

rdivaldi
12-18-2003, 12:39 PM
We've had Maggs and a strong offense the last 4 years and we have a sweep in the ALDS to show for it. Maybe it's time for a new direction?

I couldn't have said it any better myself...

habibharu
12-18-2003, 12:41 PM
yeah same here. i do have players that i go see, but id be willing to sacrifice that if we won.

bc2k
12-18-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
so many people on this board are talkin about how this trade would suck for us. i cant understand why. even if we just get nomar and williamson we still win big. i agree that mags is awesome but nomar has the same stats and he is a SS!!! it is much easier to find a OF like mags than a SS like nomar! i too love mags and would hate seeing him leave, but nomar is awesome. plus we get williamson!

I've liked Nomar for a while - from a distance, not following him every day - but a couple of red flags arose from others on this site:

* He's never been as good of a hitter post wrist injury. (If true, we can throw his career numbers out of the equation).

* His home/away splits. I find it hard to believe that he's so much better at home from playing pepper with the Monster. No way. I'd like to hear what Red Sox fans who have seen him play every day explain the reason for his splits.

* He doesn't want to be here. Since Maggs and Nomar both only have one year left on their contracts, we'll have to resign one to a new contract if we want to retain him.

I believe Magglio is much more likely to resign with the White Sox than Nomar. This is Magglio's only team he has played for so we have the loyalty factor. If only the loyalty factor was a two-way street(JR), we wouldn't have a problem. OTOH, Nomar will sign with the highest bidder or with a west coast team for a slight discount. He has, justifiably, no loyalty to us. NOTE: We will not be the highest bidder and Lake Michigan ain't the Pacific Ocean.

So it's not that we Magglio fans have been blindly against this trade (like Thomas fans), it's just that we believe that Magglio is more of an asset to the White Sox for 2004 and many years beyond that. It's hard to factor in the rumored following trades where we get back needed pitching and prospects because those trades are not guaranteed, or contingent on Maggs for Nomar taking place. Since, IMO, the team is not greatly improved with the trade of Magglio, I wouldn't mind this trade being nixed.

doogiec
12-18-2003, 12:45 PM
Garciaparra will be easier to sign since Arn Tellem is his agent and is known to have a good relationship with the Sox and JR (believe it or not).

Everything I've seen related to Magglio suggests that he's gone unless the money is way higher than anywhere else, and we know the chances of that.

oheeoh...magglio
12-18-2003, 12:49 PM
I don't know what to think about this trade yet. I'm going to reserve my judgement. If we can get Nomar and Williamson, and somehow sign Nomar to an extension AND trade Jose for Freddy Garcia, you'd be a fool to NOT like this trade. but I get the feeling we are going to trade Nomar for those Dodgers pitchers if this goes down. And basically getting Odalis Perez, Guillermo Mota, and a prospect for Maggs doesn't excite me too much. But I mean I guess it could also be argued that Maggs is for sure leaving after this year and getting something for him is better than nothing. I don't know, i'm just going to take a wait and see approach on this.

ChiSoxBobette
12-18-2003, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
so many people on this board are talkin about how this trade would suck for us. i cant understand why. even if we just get nomar and williamson we still win big. i agree that mags is awesome but nomar has the same stats and he is a SS!!! it is much easier to find a OF like mags than a SS like nomar! i too love mags and would hate seeing him leave, but nomar is awesome. plus we get williamson!

Nomar has'nt been the same since he injured his wrist all you have to do is look at his offensive stats away from Fenway and its pretty pitiful

jabrch
12-18-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I believe Magglio is much more likely to resign with the White Sox than Nomar.


BC2K

Magglio said he wanted 5/75. He also said his wife wants to be somewhere warm. Why do you believe there is any chance, given those two desires, that he would consider staying in Chicago. Nomar isnt staying either, btw, he wants 15mm per for 4-5 years also. Given that, which one gives us the better chance to win?

Nomar at SS and Juan Gonzalez or Reed/Borchard in RF with Williamson closing and Perez as a 4th starter

or

Maggs, Jose, Koch and Cotts?

I have seen the latter - and will take my chances with the former if it is an option.

harwar
12-18-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by ChiSoxBob
Nomar has'nt been the same since he injured his wrist all you have to do is look at his offensive stats away from Fenway and its pretty pitiful

This is no secret in boston where this guy has been like a god for years.My x-wife lives in the boston area and she says that people are more than willing to trade away Omar for that reason.
Also he has several places he wants no part of,and the south side is one of them.At least Ozzie should be able to handle Maggs.
Personally i hope that if we can't trade the guy to the dodgers(all reports say the dodger deal is dead)then i hope the trade doesn't go through.Watching that guy at the plate with all of his antics makes me crazy.

bc2k
12-18-2003, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by jabrch
BC2K

Magglio said he wanted 5/75. He also said his wife wants to be somewhere warm. Why do you believe there is any chance, given those two desires, that he would consider staying in Chicago. Nomar isnt staying either, btw, he wants 15mm per for 4-5 years also. Given that, which one gives us the better chance to win?

Nomar at SS and Juan Gonzalez or Reed/Borchard in RF with Williamson closing and Perez as a 4th starter

or

Maggs, Jose, Koch and Cotts?

I have seen the latter - and will take my chances with the former if it is an option.

I'll also choose the latter.

1) When did Magglio say he wanted 5/75, and do you think that was just a starting point of his negotiations or that he'd accept nothing lower.

2) When and where did Magglio say his wife wanted to play for a warm team?

I just did a check on the weather in Caracas, Venezuela, and it's mid to high 80s all week. I just opened a window and it's about 25 degrees in Chicago. But here's the kicker: The Sox don't play baseball in December! Does she realize this critical tidbit, or does she still want to complain about Chicago April and October weather? I'm sure she sits in a heated luxury box anyway. I find it hard to believe that she'd make Magglio move because of 1-2 colder Chicago months.

Open up a Rainforest cafe on 35th to make her feel at home.

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I just did a check on the weather in Caracas, Venezuela, and it's mid to high 80s all week. I just opened a window and it's about 25 degrees in Chicago. But here's the kicker: The Sox don't play baseball in December! Does she realize this critical tidbit, or does she still want to complain about Chicago April and October weather? I'm sure she sits in a heated luxury box anyway. I find it hard to believe that she'd make Magglio move because of 1-2 colder months.

I find it hard to believe that a man wouldn't listen to his wife if she says she wants to live somewhere warm, 24/7/365...

DonkeyKongerko
12-18-2003, 01:16 PM
From what I heard, Maggs wants minimum 14M/year which would match his 2004 salary. The best we offered him is 4/48 I believe.

PaulDrake
12-18-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by bc2k
I've liked Nomar for a while - from a distance, not following him every day - but a couple of red flags arose from others on this site:

* He's never been as good of a hitter post wrist injury. (If true, we can throw his career numbers out of the equation).

* His home/away splits. I find it hard to believe that he's so much better at home from playing pepper with the Monster. No way. I'd like to hear what Red Sox fans who have seen him play every day explain the reason for his splits.

* He doesn't want to be here. Since Maggs and Nomar both only have one year left on their contracts, we'll have to resign one to a new contract if we want to retain him.

I believe Magglio is much more likely to resign with the White Sox than Nomar. This is Magglio's only team he has played for so we have the loyalty factor. If only the loyalty factor was a two-way street(JR), we wouldn't have a problem. OTOH, Nomar will sign with the highest bidder or with a west coast team for a slight discount. He has, justifiably, no loyalty to us. NOTE: We will not be the highest bidder and Lake Michigan ain't the Pacific Ocean.

So it's not that we Magglio fans have been blindly against this trade (like Thomas fans), it's just that we believe that Magglio is more of an asset to the White Sox for 2004 and many years beyond that. It's hard to factor in the rumored following trades where we get back needed pitching and prospects because those trades are not guaranteed, or contingent on Maggs for Nomar taking place. Since, IMO, the team is not greatly improved with the trade of Magglio, I wouldn't mind this trade being nixed. Once again congratulations. You've summed up how a lot of us feel about this.

Greg1983
12-18-2003, 01:22 PM
As I'm reading over these posts, it looks like there is something of a consensus emerging that the only way trading Maggs makes sense is for pitching--Williamson and Perez in particular. Am I reading this correctly?

Assuming this is just a trade that brings Garciaparra to our team, it seems to me the best we could hope for is that he would be Maggs' equal offensively, and that seems unlikely given his wrist injury. Yes, he would be a defensive upgrade at SS, but probably not enough to make the trade of a fan-favorite and All-Star palatable. And he'd only be here a year or two anyway.

In other words, there is really no way Nomar Garciaparra really makes sense for this organization, other than as trade-bait for pitching. Anyone disagree with that?

Oh, and harwar, where are you reading that a deal with the Dodgers is dead? Are you saying that we have no shot at moving Nomar to LA for pitching?

bc2k
12-18-2003, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by PaulDrake
Once again congratulations. You've summed up how a lot of us feel about this.

Thanks brother

fuzzy_patters
12-18-2003, 01:31 PM
Fact: The Sox will not be able to resign Magglio next year.

Fact: The Sox will also not be able to resign Nomar next year.

Fact: We should be able to get a .280-20-100 RF or a .260-35-100 RF for a lot less than a similar shortstop. Carl Everett anyone?

Fact: Scott Willimson is a proven reliever the Sox will be able to keep beyond this season.

I can't believe that some of you would rather have an average shortstop and Magglio over an average corner outfielder and Nomar. Plus, both will be gone at the end of the year, and we get Williamson in the Nomar deal.

edit: I understand that rumors have Nomar going to the Dodgers for Perez and Mota; however, on PTI yesterday Boston Gammons said that his sources are telling him the Sox will keep Nomar.

fuzzy_patters
12-18-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Greg1983
As I'm reading over these posts, it looks like there is something of a consensus emerging that the only way trading Maggs makes sense is for pitching--Williamson and Perez in particular. Am I reading this correctly?

Assuming this is just a trade that brings Garciaparra to our team, it seems to me the best we could hope for is that he would be Maggs' equal offensively, and that seems unlikely given his wrist injury. Yes, he would be a defensive upgrade at SS, but probably not enough to make the trade of a fan-favorite and All-Star palatable. And he'd only be here a year or two anyway.

In other words, there is really no way Nomar Garciaparra really makes sense for this organization, other than as trade-bait for pitching. Anyone disagree with that?

Oh, and harwar, where are you reading that a deal with the Dodgers is dead? Are you saying that we have no shot at moving Nomar to LA for pitching?

Nomar doesn't have to be better than Maggs offensively. He just has to be close because a cheap corner outfielder (or Reed/Borchard) should be able to outperform Jose offensively.

Baby Fisk
12-18-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
I understand that rumors have Nomar going to the Dodgers for Perez and Mota; however, on PTI yesterday Boston Gammons said that his sources are telling him the Sox will keep Nomar.
Is KW trying to assemble the sulkiest team in Sox history?
:KW
"Did I say GRINDERS? I meant GRIPERS."

Greg1983
12-18-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by fuzzy_patters
Nomar doesn't have to be better than Maggs offensively. He just has to be close because a cheap corner outfielder (or Reed/Borchard) should be able to outperform Jose offensively.

I definitely understand your logic.

What about the emotional appeal of a long-time fan favorite like Maggs, though? Assuming Nomar stays, I'm never going to see him as anything other than a Red Sox who got into a pissing contest with Boston management, and came to play here for a year until something more glamorous and lucrative opened up.

I think Maggs is part of the heart and soul of this team, and I just can't swallow trading him away. Maybe I'm just being a sentimental sap. I know he's a free agent in a year and probably will blow out of town at the first opportunity, especially given our ownership. But damn, I want this team to develop some constancy, some identity. I think you build franchises around guys like Maggs...great bat, solid glove, good guy.

When you factor in the intangibles, I just can't see any way that a straight-up Maggs-for-Nomar trade makes sense, either on the field or in the marketing. But again, I freely admit that I'm probably just being a sentimental sap...

dickallen15
12-18-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Greg1983
I definitely understand your logic.

What about the emotional appeal of a long-time fan favorite like Maggs, though? Assuming Nomar stays, I'm never going to see him as anything other than a Red Sox who got into a pissing contest with Boston management, and came to play here for a year until something more glamorous and lucrative opened up.

I think Maggs is part of the heart and soul of this team, and I just can't swallow trading him away. Maybe I'm just being a sentimental sap. I know he's a free agent in a year and probably will blow out of town at the first opportunity, especially given our ownership. But damn, I want this team to develop some constancy, some identity. I think you build franchises around guys like Maggs...great bat, solid glove, good guy.

When you factor in the intangibles, I just can't see any way that a straight-up Maggs-for-Nomar trade makes sense, either on the field or in the marketing. But again, I freely admit that I'm probably just being a sentimental sap...

People might have thought the same thing about Fisk. Nomar especially now that he has a famous wife, could have a positive effect with casual fan attendance. If the Sox could get something serviceable for Valentin, I'm all for it. I still can't believe a team that cries poor as often as this one does, exercised his option.

fuzzy_patters
12-18-2003, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Greg1983
I definitely understand your logic.

What about the emotional appeal of a long-time fan favorite like Maggs, though? Assuming Nomar stays, I'm never going to see him as anything other than a Red Sox who got into a pissing contest with Boston management, and came to play here for a year until something more glamorous and lucrative opened up.

I think Maggs is part of the heart and soul of this team, and I just can't swallow trading him away. Maybe I'm just being a sentimental sap. I know he's a free agent in a year and probably will blow out of town at the first opportunity, especially given our ownership. But damn, I want this team to develop some constancy, some identity. I think you build franchises around guys like Maggs...great bat, solid glove, good guy.

When you factor in the intangibles, I just can't see any way that a straight-up Maggs-for-Nomar trade makes sense, either on the field or in the marketing. But again, I freely admit that I'm probably just being a sentimental sap...

In the long term, I don't think having Maggs one more season will make much difference emotionally as a fan. We have to lose him either this season or next, so we will always lament the one that got away in either case.

Do you remember when Ventura left for free agency? I don't think that, long term, it would have made much difference if the Sox had traded him a year early. Either way, we would have lamented the loss of a Sox icon.

I think that, since we have to lose Maggs anyway, we might as well make sure that he leaves on our terms. Let's make sure we get at least one good year out of his value, and I think this trade makes the Sox better for next year.

Greg1983
12-18-2003, 02:34 PM
yeah, I suppose you're right. I think the Ventura analogy is especially apt.

I'm thinking with my heart, not with my head.

THERE'S NO CRYING IN BASEBALL!!!

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 02:40 PM
Am I wrong or is Maggs the best White Sox player in the last 30 years? I'm not talking about 1 year but a career of 5+ seasons. Fisk was great and so were Baines & Ventura, but I feel Maggs is the best.

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
Am I wrong or is Maggs the best White Sox player in the last 30 years? I'm not talking about 1 year but a career of 5+ seasons. Fisk was great and so were Baines & Ventura, but I feel Maggs is the best.

:hurt
"Heelllllooooooo... What am I, chopped liver?"

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 02:59 PM
Frank is the best hitter but the key word is player.

Viva Magglio
12-18-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by voodoochile
:hurt
"Heelllllooooooo... What am I, chopped liver?"

No, Frank, you're a past-your-prime pouty piece of crap.

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
Frank is the best hitter but the key word is player.

Too funny. Okay, so Magglio's glove makes him that much more important? I thought you said in the last 30 years. Frank played first for most of the first 7 years of his career, but I guess that doesn't count. Let me know when Magglio wins his first MVP award, let alone #2. Heck, let me know when anyone on your list wins their first. Heck you even put Haaarold on the list and he was basically a DH by the time he left...

I mean, maybe we disagree about who is #1, but to not even make the top 5? That is not only ridiculous, it is downright idiotic...


Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!


No, Frank, you're a past-your-prime pouty piece of crap.

Wow, and I didn't even think this would go that way. Even if what you say is true, does that negate the first 10 years of his career? This has nothing to do with Magglio. The question was, who is the best Sox player in the last 3 decades. Heck, I wouldn't put Magglio in the top 3 until he plays here a while longer. He's a ggreat player, but he doesn't have the longevity to make the list, IMO.

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 03:29 PM
You call what Frank did in the field defensive. I'd say it was most offensive work. I loved the 3-6-3 double play. Oh wait a minute, that never happened. Baines was a very good right fielder until he hurt his knees. When was Frank ever good in the field?

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
You call what Frank did in the field defensive. I'd say it was most offensive work. I loved the 3-6-3 double play. Oh wait a minute, that never happened. Baines was a very good right fielder until he hurt his knees. When was Frank ever good in the field?

Oh crap, suckered into the importance of a 1st baseman's glove argument again... sigh... I'm done. You can continue this rant alone. Pure rubbish...

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 03:47 PM
Glove? It's arm that sucks.

Dadawg_77
12-18-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
You call what Frank did in the field defensive. I'd say it was most offensive work. I loved the 3-6-3 double play. Oh wait a minute, that never happened. Baines was a very good right fielder until he hurt his knees. When was Frank ever good in the field?

If you think that Mags is a better player then Frank, career wise, then you are an idiot. I don't like name call but there is no other way to put that. And to top it off, to bring up the 3-6-3DP, makes your statements even more laughable. How many times does that happen in the normal course of play? The fact is Mags couldn't even hold Frank's jock when you start comparing them.

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 04:20 PM
Now it makes sense. Your a Northsider who likes Howard Done. Why didn't you say so?

Dadawg_77
12-18-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
Now it makes sense. Your a Northsider who likes Howard Done. Why didn't you say so?

Wow attack another person by claiming they are elitist by being elitist. So lets go with the elitist spin here to satisfy your need.... So I will assume you can't count to 11 unless you take your shoes off, so I'll try to be easy on the numbers for your sake.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/ordonma01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml

Now lets look last season when Mags was in his sixth season and at the age of 29. He produced an OPS+ of 142, Franks was 178 at the age of 28 and his sixth season and 149 last year. Career wise Frank as a OPS+ of 162 and Mags is at 129, remember Mags is at his peak while Frank is in decline. Now just so you understand OPS+ takes a players OPS and adjusted it for park and league. This is done so we have a reliable number which we can use to compare players.

Now you will use the overdone and erroneous argument of "I said player not hitter." Well then lets go to Win Shares. A system Bill James designed to measure a value of player. It includes all aspects of the game fielding, offense and pitching contributions. Last year Frank earned 22.82 win shares and Mags earned 22.80. Once again remember Frank is not at his prime but Mags should be.

http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/alwinteam.html#cws


You didn't say Mags was a better player last year nor did you say Mags will be a better player next year. You said Mag overall career is better the Frank's, which it completely a farce of an argument. It is sad that a good number of Sox fans don't appreciate and respect what Frank has done for this team on the field. No other Sox player has even come close to what he has done.

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
Glove? It's arm that sucks.

This is an even dumber argument than the glove argument. A firstbaseman's arm... What are we going to discuss next, a pitcher's bat?

You know that Buehrle would be a great player, but all he does it throw the baseball. And Maddux may be a 300 game winner soon, but what is up with that batting average? I mean the guy has less than 10 HR for his career...

miker
12-18-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by dickallen15
Nomar especially now that he has a famous wife, could have a positive effect with casual fan attendance.

Ah yes, the Mia Hamm factor...it just could fill up those empty blue seats!

Baby Fisk
12-18-2003, 05:12 PM
She'd get on TV more often than Hasselbeck's wife...or (gagging) Ben & JLo.

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 05:35 PM
Take Franks stats and Al Gore's internet and shove them. How did Moneyball do in the postseason? 4 years in a row getting bounced in the first round! The only stat that matters is the one in the Win column. Stats, Stats, Stats.

minastirith67
12-18-2003, 05:37 PM
I totally agree with dadawg and voodoo...you must really be braindead to think that Ordonez is a better player than Frank over his career. What an ignorant comment...aren't you cheering for the wrong team or are you just a troll-in-disguise?

jabrch
12-18-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
Take Franks stats and Al Gore's internet and shove them. How did Moneyball do in the postseason? 4 years in a row getting bounced in the first round! The only stat that matters is the one in the Win column. Stats, Stats, Stats.


Moneyball has done fairly well given Beane's budget, right? Sure he has no rings to show for it, but he has lost to NYY twice, BOS once and the Twins his fourth time. I'd take Moneyball's results over KennyBall, SchuBall or HimesBall any day, wouldn't you?

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 05:44 PM
I think you all missed the point when I clearly said player not HITTER! Frank's the greatest DH in the history of the world next to Edgar. Do you guys have stock in Big Hurt Records or his candy bar?

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 05:54 PM
Oakland has done well for 3 reasons: Hudson, Mulder, Zito. It all comes down to pitching.

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
I think you all missed the point when I clearly said player not HITTER! Frank's the greatest DH in the history of the world next to Edgar. Do you guys have stock in Big Hurt Records or his candy bar?

Okay, then let's break down what you mean by player?

What do you mean?

Is it merely a person who dons a certain team's uniform?

Do they both have to play the field AND hit?

If you answer yes to the last question, do pitchers qualify?

What percentage of weight would you place on a player's defensive role on the team? Does that vary position to position (is defense more important for a SS than a 1B)? Do all 1B automatically get thus downgraded in these hypothetical "player" rankings?

Where does Frank rate in your list or can he never be considered a player? Just curious...

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 06:00 PM
I appreciate everbody's enthusiam and love/hate for Frank. Please do not take any comments as personal and happy holidays. Go Sox!

P.S. Frank if your on line please give Ozzie a call. He really wants to wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
I appreciate everbody's enthusiam and love/hate for Frank. Please do not take any comments as personal and happy holidays. Go Sox!

P.S. Frank if your on line please give Ozzie a call. He really wants to wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

:hurt
"What... Evvverrrrrrrrr..."

jshanahanjr
12-18-2003, 06:13 PM
To be a great player in my book. You have to be able to run, hit for average & power, throw, and play defense. I think Magglio has all the tools where Frank does not.

Pitching is first line of defense, followed by SS, C, CF, 2B, RF, 3B, 1B, LF.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

voodoochile
12-18-2003, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
To be a great player in my book. You have to be able to run, hit for average & power, throw, and play defense. I think Magglio has all the tools where Frank does not.

Pitching is first line of defense, followed by SS, C, CF, 2B, RF, 3B, 1B, LF.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

A player is anyone who actually plays for a given team. Then I would rate them by how much their contributions affect the team.

Frank's contributions since he has been with the Sox have been the best the team has seen in that time frame, bar none and arguably the best the team has seen ever. It can even be argued that he is one of the best to ever play the game.

I put little stock in any argument that claims defense is an important aspect of any firstbaseman's job. The abilit to throw the ball at that position would be about 1% of the evaluation criteria and should only be used as a tiebreaker, IMO.

Defense is the poor stepchild of qualifications to play MLB. Pitching then hitting then lastly and way behind is defense. Certain positions, that will be different (notably catcher), but in general, any player will be more valuable if they have better offensive numbers while not giving up to much defensively.

Frank's numbers are beyond reproach. There isn't anyone in Sox history that can touch them for length and quality. You want to draw some arbitrary line in the sand and say, "so and so doesn't play the field, so they cannot be as important as someone who does." I think that line of reasoning when it comes to 1B/DH types is pure bull...

ma-gaga
12-18-2003, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
To be a great player in my book. You have to be able to run, hit for average & power, throw, and play defense. I think Magglio has all the tools where Frank does not.


Frank Thomas has been a better player for the W.Sox than Magglio has been.

Maybe in 5-6 years if Magglio continues his run (ahem... for the W.Sox...) he can be considered, but right now, Hurt is 'the man' of the last 10 years.

He can't break into your book because he doesn't play the field? I don't think I've ever heard the words 'gold glover' and 'Magglio Ordonez' in the same sentence. You adding much more value to marginal defense in right field than what it's worth to the team wins in my opinion.

What about stolen bases? Do they count for anything in your book?

Dadawg_77
12-18-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by jshanahanjr
Take Franks stats and Al Gore's internet and shove them. How did Moneyball do in the postseason? 4 years in a row getting bounced in the first round! The only stat that matters is the one in the Win column. Stats, Stats, Stats.

Thanks for confirming my theory.

longshot7
12-18-2003, 08:45 PM
I just logged on and read this thread title. To whoever started it:

You wouldn't. Go root for the Cubs.

longshot7
12-18-2003, 10:01 PM
I just logged on and read this thread title. To whoever started it:

You wouldn't. Go root for the Cubs.

doublem23
12-18-2003, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by habibharu
so many people on this board are talkin about how this trade would suck for us. i cant understand why. even if we just get nomar and williamson we still win big. i agree that mags is awesome but nomar has the same stats and he is a SS!!! it is much easier to find a OF like mags than a SS like nomar! i too love mags and would hate seeing him leave, but nomar is awesome. plus we get williamson!

I haven't read all the replies, so excuse me if this has been said, but this deal was a win-win for us anyway. No matter how the chips fell we'd have been all right. With keeping Magglio, we keep the bigger of the two bats, and (hopefully) the easier to resign at the end of the year. If we got Nomar, we would have filled a bigger weak spot in the organization, would have a nationally recognizable star, and had a player who's agent is (reportedly) chummy with Reinsdorf.

Maggs? Nomar? It's all good. :gulp:

idseer
12-18-2003, 10:12 PM
i think what he should be saying is that magglio is the better all around athlete. which i believe he has always been.
but to say he's been a better player careerwise is ludicrous.
when both career's are over 19 out of 20 intelligent baseball people will say thomas was more valuable. period!

Dadawg_77
12-18-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by idseer
i think what he should be saying is that magglio is the better all around athlete. which i believe he has always been.
but to say he's been a better player careerwise is ludicrous.
when both career's are over 19 out of 20 intelligent baseball people will say thomas was more valuable. period!

I wouldn't go that far. Frank was a TE at a Div 1 school, while Mags probably never had that opportunity, you can't discount the quality of athlete Frank is. Naturally he has lost some of it as he specialized in Baseball and has gotten older.

Also Mags has a long way to go to get that 1 our 20 person.

idseer
12-18-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Dadawg_77
I wouldn't go that far. Frank was a TE at a Div 1 school, while Mags probably never had that opportunity, you can't discount the quality of athlete Frank is. Naturally he has lost some of it as he specialized in Baseball and has gotten older.

Also Mags has a long way to go to get that 1 our 20 person.

i would go that far. and i am keeping in in the context of playing baseball.

thomas is/was strong. has/had a great hitters eye. that's it.

as an all around athlete i don't think too many would argue magglio is better. he is more agile, faster, better arm, close to as powerful, hits for about the same average and is a better fielder (relative to position). and to be honest, he's not head and shoulders above thomas in all these things, but i think he has a definite edge.

red faber
12-19-2003, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by habibharu
so many people on this board are talkin about how this trade would suck for us. i cant understand why. even if we just get nomar and williamson we still win big. i agree that mags is awesome but nomar has the same stats and he is a SS!!! it is much easier to find a OF like mags than a SS like nomar! i too love mags and would hate seeing him leave, but nomar is awesome. plus we get williamson!

this is the problem i have with this trade is the sox aren't going to keep nomar,and nomar doesn't want to be here so why go through with it.

they should just sign mags to a long term contract and kill this drama!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bafiarocks03
12-22-2003, 01:14 PM
Dude! are you nuts! Nomar is a total idiot!! Its is so not easier finding a guy like maggs! we have Jose! Jose is a great ss! we don't need to Nomar! or whoever this williamson guy is we don't need him either! Maggs is the best! so don't be hatin on him!
Go BHawks!!!